duboka
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Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:36 pm

This Spiegel article reports that the German Minister of Defence wants to buy an A330 or A350 for the Flugbereitschaft (the VIP aircraft branch of the German air force)


http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschla ... 43910.html
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:27 pm

Any working fix must include replacing U.v.d.Leyen as a first step.
The "Flugbereitschaft" has issues keeping the planes in flyable condition.
They ( "Luftwaffe" as wrapper to "Flughbereitschaft" have the same problems
with brand new equipment ( A400M ).
An issue nobody else has with these types.
Murphy is an optimist
 
aviationaware
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:09 pm

There is no way they will be able to get an A350 in the next reasonable amount of years, so only choice is an A330.

But wasn't the problem that there was no crew available rather than no aircraft?

WIederling wrote:
Any working fix must include replacing U.v.d.Leyen as a first step.
The "Flugbereitschaft" has issues keeping the planes in flyable condition.
They ( "Luftwaffe" as wrapper to "Flughbereitschaft" have the same problems
with brand new equipment ( A400M ).
An issue nobody else has with these types.


The problem is not keeping the aircraft in flyable condition but the definition of flyable condition the Germans apply. The don't consider their gear flyable unless it is in absolutely pristine and mint condition. Germany has refused acceptance of A400Ms because of minuscule scratches on control panels barely visible to the eye. That's just nuts on a military aircraft.
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:24 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Germany has refused acceptance of A400Ms because of minuscule scratches on control panels barely visible to the eye. That's just nuts on a military aircraft.

Obviously applying Al Baker levels of quality!
 
texl1649
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:37 pm

Why would they need to do this? I read that dispatch reliability on the A340's has been great, on here?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:59 pm

This is a ridiculous knee-jerk reaction to the recent AOG of the A340. At a cost of 200 - 300 mio €, it seems like they want a new build. Might as well buy an A330MRTT instead.
The "white fleet" i already quite large and should suffice for all needs that really need a dedicated jet. Others should fly commercial or rent a business jet. The A310's and in the future the A330MRTTs can also be used as transports if need be. Some other countries don't even have any such fleet.
 
duboka
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:30 am

texl1649 wrote:
Why would they need to do this? I read that dispatch reliability on the A340's has been great, on here?


To be honest I don't know... Probably, such that they can keep a backup plane in Cologne at all times? The reliability of the aircraft itself is not that problem. It's, what I've read, in the normal operational margin. But if something happens, it's of course always in the media...

mxaxai wrote:
This is a ridiculous knee-jerk reaction to the recent AOG of the A340. At a cost of 200 - 300 mio €, it seems like they want a new build.

The two A340s are very busy, too (what I've read...). So it could even make sense, to buy an additional aircraft. And why a new one? In this quite unusual case, the media was complaining, that Germany buys always used aircraft and close to never new ones for the Flugbereitschaft. So this could be one of the reasons...
 
Max Q
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:56 am

Better off chartering from Lufthansa when needed.


Save money, pristine aircraft and
first rate crews
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
columba
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:57 am

Better spend the money on more Crews....the 2nd A340 was available but there were no Crews. Also we are getting an A321 for Government use lets try things out with the things we already have instead of wasting tax payers money....

P.S. Usually I am a guy that cheers for new aircraft but this is nuts.......
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
duboka
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:30 pm

columba wrote:
Better spend the money on more Crews....the 2nd A340 was available but there were no Crews. Also we are getting an A321 for Government use lets try things out with the things we already have instead of wasting tax payers money....

P.S. Usually I am a guy that cheers for new aircraft but this is nuts.......


Additionally there should be an reserve crew at all times:
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/angela-me ... -oder-a350

Probably she is using the time to a new aircraft... Probably the they'll reconfigure one of the A340s to use it to swap it with the A310pax, which was used once by Interflug...
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:18 pm

duboka wrote:
The two A340s are very busy, too (what I've read...). So it could even make sense, to buy an additional aircraft. And why a new one? In this quite unusual case, the media was complaining, that Germany buys always used aircraft and close to never new ones for the Flugbereitschaft. So this could be one of the reasons...

Then they should very seriously reconsider their use of the fleet. There are 25 (give or take) people who may request their use at any time and without extra approval. They have 7 widebodies (2 A340, 5 A310), 3 narrowbodies (2 A319ACJ, 1 A321) and 4 bizjets (Global 5000) at their disposal. Who except for the chancellor and possibly the president and the president of the parliament really need the A340 and can't make do with an alternative?

If they want an A330 (or more) to replace the A310s they should get an MRTT, because that's what the A310 fleet is used for already.
 
duboka
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:51 pm

mxaxai wrote:
duboka wrote:
The two A340s are very busy, too (what I've read...). So it could even make sense, to buy an additional aircraft. And why a new one? In this quite unusual case, the media was complaining, that Germany buys always used aircraft and close to never new ones for the Flugbereitschaft. So this could be one of the reasons...

Then they should very seriously reconsider their use of the fleet. There are 25 (give or take) people who may request their use at any time and without extra approval. They have 7 widebodies (2 A340, 5 A310), 3 narrowbodies (2 A319ACJ, 1 A321) and 4 bizjets (Global 5000) at their disposal. Who except for the chancellor and possibly the president and the president of the parliament really need the A340 and can't make do with an alternative?

If they want an A330 (or more) to replace the A310s they should get an MRTT, because that's what the A310 fleet is used for already.


All the ministers are using the wide body when they are flying overseas. It's not just the minister, but there is the whole delegation + journalists on board, too (who are paying for their seats)... What I've read, is that all the aircrafts are quite busy, too. Therefore a new A319CJ is going to be delivered soon, too. But this aircraft is going to be used for the Open Skies missions, too. (It could be that this is going to be the sole role of this aircraft)

And the five 310 are just used in their military role. Four of these are MRTT, and one of them is always in the MedEvac configuration on alert. The one in pax is just used to transport personal to all these overseas bases, which leaves it quite busy, too...
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:37 pm

duboka wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
duboka wrote:
The two A340s are very busy, too (what I've read...). So it could even make sense, to buy an additional aircraft. And why a new one? In this quite unusual case, the media was complaining, that Germany buys always used aircraft and close to never new ones for the Flugbereitschaft. So this could be one of the reasons...

Then they should very seriously reconsider their use of the fleet. There are 25 (give or take) people who may request their use at any time and without extra approval. They have 7 widebodies (2 A340, 5 A310), 3 narrowbodies (2 A319ACJ, 1 A321) and 4 bizjets (Global 5000) at their disposal. Who except for the chancellor and possibly the president and the president of the parliament really need the A340 and can't make do with an alternative?

If they want an A330 (or more) to replace the A310s they should get an MRTT, because that's what the A310 fleet is used for already.


All the ministers are using the wide body when they are flying overseas. It's not just the minister, but there is the whole delegation + journalists on board, too (who are paying for their seats)... What I've read, is that all the aircrafts are quite busy, too. Therefore a new A319CJ is going to be delivered soon, too. But this aircraft is going to be used for the Open Skies missions, too. (It could be that this is going to be the sole role of this aircraft)

And the five 310 are just used in their military role. Four of these are MRTT, and one of them is always in the MedEvac configuration on alert. The one in pax is just used to transport personal to all these overseas bases, which leaves it quite busy, too...

The A319 can carry 44 people, the A321 82. Is that really insufficient for a minister? Germany already operates one of the largest government fleets in Europe, second only to France. Even US officials usually make do with the C-40.
Troop transports could be done with the A400M or civilian contractors instead. Government travel should use more commercial or if necessary charter flights. Merkel showed that it can be done.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:06 am

From the various press information about the embarrasing delay I understand that there was a back up Crew with the second A340 available - But the timed out as well due to the lengjt of the route

The real logistic Problem is that th customers (except the Military) are based in Berlin whereas the fleez is based in CGN,. With the intended closing of TXL there is Little Chance to move the fleet. Keeping TXL open for GA and Governmenz would have solved that.

As to the capacity of the A340, they usually go out full with the Delegation, the press and Business delegations filling the back. And the non Gov pax have to pay
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:02 pm

aviationaware wrote:
There is no way they will be able to get an A350 in the next reasonable amount of years, so only choice is an A330.

duboka wrote:
The two A340s are very busy, too (what I've read...). So it could even make sense, to buy an additional aircraft. And why a new one? In this quite unusual case, the media was complaining, that Germany buys always used aircraft and close to never new ones for the Flugbereitschaft.

PanHAM wrote:
As to the capacity of the A340, they usually go out full with the Delegation, the press and Business delegations filling the back.

Since it's pretty much established that a new VIP transport is needed, why not acquire the A338 test airframe after certification as a compromise and fit it out for the purpose :?: The government could probably have it at a very good price..... :airplane: .....

Image
https://airbus-h.assetsadobe2.com/is/im ... 1&qlt=85,0


The premise is that only non-destructive testing will be done on it...so certifying same at 251T MTOW would allow the most flexible combinations of payload and range. Unless there are some intractable issues with the RR T7000, familiarity with in this case perhaps breeds contempt? :scratchchin:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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keesje
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:25 am

The G20 drama has apparently some fall out.

It seems to me one ACJ should be standby when PM or president is travelling.

Personally I’m charmed by another type that could Show soon, ACJ321LR

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1393699&p=20750887&hilit=ACJ321#p20750887
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Noshow
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:40 am

The only thing that makes senses is some A330 MRTT. They could configure it for VVIP inside (modular) or like the Brits do with some business sleeper class for government duties. MRTT are the way to go anyway as some older transport A310s need to be replaced sooner or later.

However the key to solving their ops reliabilty problem this time is crew scheduling. They are military but seem to stick to commercial duty hours when doing VVIP flights without planning for enough reserve crews that are permitted to fly the very top guys and girls. Some 24/7 standby crews and one Global or two could solve this in a minute.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:10 am

Devilfish wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
There is no way they will be able to get an A350 in the next reasonable amount of years, so only choice is an A330.

duboka wrote:
The two A340s are very busy, too (what I've read...). So it could even make sense, to buy an additional aircraft. And why a new one? In this quite unusual case, the media was complaining, that Germany buys always used aircraft and close to never new ones for the Flugbereitschaft.

PanHAM wrote:
As to the capacity of the A340, they usually go out full with the Delegation, the press and Business delegations filling the back.

Since it's pretty much established that a new VIP transport is needed, why not acquire the A338 test airframe after certification as a compromise and fit it out for the purpose?

Or this test airframe?

AKK is a small lady, this jet would help her ;-)

Seriously, as others said. A brandnew A350 would be waste of German taxpayer's money. If really necessary (I thought the problem was about missing crews?), why not add another used A340...
 
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keesje
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:30 am

I have respect for Merkel remaining as cool about this, as she did, publicly. She missed the G20 first day, where she had F2F's with Trump, Putin and others. Making calls via the Iberia IFE phone excusing herself, Macron & Xi making jokes on her.

Image

"Look, who's sitting next to me .. "

Image

Image

Time for a fresh look on procedures, resources.

In the Netherlands there's a pool of airline pilots flying the government BBJ and a Gulfstream to back up. And even so, if both were somehow unavailable / broken or crew was not available, a string of pilots / multinationals owning jets would be happy to help out within hours. Come on..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Noshow
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:36 pm

You could even call His Majesty anytime (qualified BBJ pilot). We don't have a King to start with. Maybe Chancellor Merkel should learn to fly herself? :scratchchin:
 
GDB
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:32 pm

Noshow wrote:
The only thing that makes senses is some A330 MRTT. They could configure it for VVIP inside (modular) or like the Brits do with some business sleeper class for government duties. MRTT are the way to go anyway as some older transport A310s need to be replaced sooner or later.

However the key to solving their ops reliabilty problem this time is crew scheduling. They are military but seem to stick to commercial duty hours when doing VVIP flights without planning for enough reserve crews that are permitted to fly the very top guys and girls. Some 24/7 standby crews and one Global or two could solve this in a minute.


Agreed, even the minimal conversion of one RAF Voyager, which does not detract from it's prime military role, caused negative, ill informed comment over here.
By those who have no idea of fleets of VIP aircraft, just across the channel, or in Germany.
But it does seem odd to have these fleets, we in the UK pretty much get by without need for them. There is a case for a PM on an overseas trip to have access to secure comms and that was the main justification for the single Voyager conversion.

At BA, in all my time there, we have had VIP conversion kits for types such as 747, L1011, 767, 777, usually when Brenda was doing a tour abroad, though in 1991 the forward cabin of Concorde G-BOAB was converted for Her Maj's tour of the US.
However, all way cheaper on the public purse than dedicated fleets of VIP aircraft operated by the RAF.
(Note my list excluded shorter range aircraft, for both Royal and Ministerial use that's where the BAe146's at RAF Northolt came in, as well as some military use. Even the RAF BAe-125's were phased out some years ago, it really is just the two remaining 146's now as the sole dedicated UK VIP transports).
 
LHA320
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:53 pm

I think it could be possible that the A350 test frames MSN 002 and 004 will be the addition to the fleet. Airbus seems to be unable to find airlines which would buy them, 004 is stored at LDE for some time now. An aircraft in use for VIP transport needs no 100% commonality with in-production A350's, which seems to be the main problem of 002 and 004. In addition to that Airbus, I think Airbus would sell them for a good price to one of their major shareholders ;)
I think Airbus stated a while ago, that they plan to keep only MSN 001, so both are planned to be sold.
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
FW200
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:21 pm

Why not taking up the A340-500 EY had leased to AZ on behalf of the Italian government?

aemoreira1981 wrote:
EY was willing to reduce the lease rate by 60 percent, but the new Italian government wanted to rid itself of the lease completely to save €18M (or about $21M per year). That aircraft hasn't been used much...primarily for one state visit and for UN visits to New York City-JFK in 2016 and 2017, and will be returned to Etihad for EY to dispose of it. (it had been stored orphaned from the rest of the fleet at FCO instead of CIA). (This A345 used was a 372t example for a country that could, if it needs a wide-body head of aircraft, could simply acquire an end-of-line 242t A332 Prestige, or it could acquire a secondhand A332 even at 233t from a lessor willing to sell the frame as Australia did recently...buying ex-QF frames from CIT for its Air Force.)

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1402559

For the 40 % of the original lease rate offered to the Italian government it would be an opportunity (may be EY would be willing to sell the a/c as well?), the a/c is immediately available and Lufthansa Technik has experience in maintenance of the type and engines from their own A346.

Or taking up instead one of the A346 Lufthansa has stored in the desert?
 
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kanban
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:50 pm

I would suggest the A350 and get Lufthansa to handle the maintenance and flight preparations. Second Mexico has a Presidential 787 for sale..
 
Armodeen
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:50 am

Why don’t they just fish another A340 out of the desert for peanuts compared to a new frame? Hell some 12 year old A340s are getting scrapped, tons of life left in them yet!
 
PanHAM
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:19 am

The Mexican 787 is one of the terrible Teens. That means asking for Trouble. A 346 would not be economical in VIP use either. Considering that These aircraft remain in the fleet for 20 years and more. IMHO the 332 or 333 would be the best choice and the time is right. The present government would make a decision for the next since it takes about 2 years to convert from Airline to VIP standard
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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keesje
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:20 pm

Armodeen wrote:
Why don’t they just fish another A340 out of the desert for peanuts compared to a new frame? Hell some 12 year old A340s are getting scrapped, tons of life left in them yet!


Another A340-300 would be easy to get / convert. But 2 A340s should be enough, added with smaller aircraft. Last September:
Upon the arrival of the new A321, German Air Force has now nine aircraft in its inventory assigned for VIP flights

https://airlinerwatch.com/lufthansa-technik-delivers-a-converted-airbus-a321-to-the-german-air-force-for-vip-flights/

A big question I have is: why was there was no solid back-up plan for this trip?

Maybe they focused too much on the hardware instead of redundancy in the process.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
giblets
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:58 pm

As noted in the earlier thread, the GAF already has 4 a330 MRTT which they intend to pool in the euro tanker force, the also have options on it.
It's a no brainer that they simply copy the RAF and have one configured for VIP use, or have one configured solely for VIP use (i.e. Without the extra pipework).
 
giblets
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Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:59 pm

As noted in the earlier thread, the GAF already has 4 a330 MRTT which they intend to pool in the euro tanker force, they also have options on a further four.
It's a no brainer that they simply copy the RAF and have one configured for VIP use, have one configured solely for VIP use (i.e. Without the extra pipework), or just order another.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:28 pm

giblets wrote:
As noted in the earlier thread, the GAF already has 4 a330 MRTT which they intend to pool in the euro tanker force, the also have options on it.
It's a no brainer that they simply copy the RAF and have one configured for VIP use, or have one configured solely for VIP use (i.e. Without the extra pipework).


The RAAF does it too.
 
duboka
Topic Author
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:19 pm

giblets wrote:
As noted in the earlier thread, the GAF already has 4 a330 MRTT which they intend to pool in the euro tanker force, they also have options on a further four.
It's a no brainer that they simply copy the RAF and have one configured for VIP use, have one configured solely for VIP use (i.e. Without the extra pipework), or just order another.



The problem is here, that they are ordered for NATO to participate in the Multinational Multi-Role Tanker Transport Fleet. So they are not a property of the Luftwaffe.
 
giblets
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Re: Germany considers buying an A330 or A350

Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:39 pm

duboka wrote:
giblets wrote:
As noted in the earlier thread, the GAF already has 4 a330 MRTT which they intend to pool in the euro tanker force, they also have options on a further four.
It's a no brainer that they simply copy the RAF and have one configured for VIP use, have one configured solely for VIP use (i.e. Without the extra pipework), or just order another.



The problem is here, that they are ordered for NATO to participate in the Multinational Multi-Role Tanker Transport Fleet. So they are not a property of the Luftwaffe.
Fair point, but would guess there are still economies of scale and abilities to tie into the maintenance and possibility of rotating pilots through the group.

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