Ozair
Posts: 3790
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: A400M Update Thread 2019

Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:29 am

Noray wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It's kind of like going to see a fantasy film in a theater, where willingful suspension of belief is required for one to enjoy the film.


Fantasy stories like "the US Navy is not in the transport business" (while it actually operates an air transport fleet), or "the A400M was a contender to replace C-130Hs of the US Air National Guard and US Air Force (USAF) Reserve Command" (which is too far-fetched).

One day I'll open a fish trade and sell all the red herrings found in this forum.

Noray, I never said the USN doesn't operate transports, I said they don't today operate them in the numbers they used to and they have no need of a strategic transport. They are not in the air transport business, their current fleet provides them with the lift they need and is inconsequential to the sea based assets they operate. If they wanted something bigger or longer ranged they could have ordered the C-17 when it was available. Further, you still haven't provided a valid use case for operating the A400m other than outsize cargo which given they have a small tactical airlift fleet and can call on a 250+ C-17/C-5 fleet, plus 400+ C-130s is clearly not needed. Additionally no one has actually indicated how the USN could afford this despite it being clearly pointed out they have other priorities.
 
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keesje
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Re: A400M Update Thread 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:12 pm

Further, you still haven't provided a valid use case for operating the A400m


Are you serious? I guess fast putting new generation Marines vehicles in the dirt, close to the action. The MPC, ACV's, 2 LAV's with turrets, Venoms, etc. The Hercules & C-17 can't move big loads to dirt strips.

Why do think they requested information from LM?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Ozair
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Re: A400M Update Thread 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:05 pm

keesje wrote:
Further, you still haven't provided a valid use case for operating the A400m


Are you serious? I guess fast putting new generation Marines vehicles in the dirt, close to the action. The MPC, ACV's, 2 LAV's with turrets, Venoms, etc. The Hercules & C-17 can't move big loads to dirt strips.

Why do think they requested information from LM?

Keesje, you know what puts fast new generation Marine vehicles in the dirt? The USN and the vehicle itself.

Below is the equipment used by a Marine Expeditionary Unit. It is a combined force that trains and fights together. The whole point of the MEU is to deploy together and support each other in areas where there is no other support.

Image

There is no Marines dropping armored vehicles off on dirt strips, they do it via the above. How many A400Ms are the USMC going to need to move a single MEU, at least a 100 and likely a 150... How do you expect to support those marines with the ammo, supplies and fuel they need, additional A400Ms? How do you expect to land those A400Ms in a contested environment without massive fighter support protecting them...

Ludicrous mate, simply ludicrous.

keesje wrote:
The Hercules & C-17 can't move big loads to dirt strips.

Clearly... :roll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a0foRVgOV0
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: A400M Update Thread 2019

Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:27 pm

Well I think one can cross NZ off the list of possible A400M customers.

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/sup ... red-option
 
JJT
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Re: A400M Update Thread 2019

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:45 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
Well I think one can cross NZ off the list of possible A400M customers.

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/sup ... red-option


The C130J has been chosen for the Tactical lift only.

The Strategic lift is still a few years away before the NZ Govt will seek a RFI from manufacturers. The A400M is a viable option for that role and has a very good chance. Other potentials are the KHI C-2 (which I like a lot) but I wouldn’t mind us looking at a KC-46 or Airbus equivalent MRTT.
 
Ozair
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Re: A400M Update Thread 2019

Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:36 am

JJT wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
Well I think one can cross NZ off the list of possible A400M customers.

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/sup ... red-option


The C130J has been chosen for the Tactical lift only.

The Strategic lift is still a few years away before the NZ Govt will seek a RFI from manufacturers. The A400M is a viable option for that role and has a very good chance. Other potentials are the KHI C-2 (which I like a lot) but I wouldn’t mind us looking at a KC-46 or Airbus equivalent MRTT.

The A400M is a viable option for the strat component but I doubt has a very good chance. It was too much capability for the tactical lift and I expect it is both too capable and not capable enough for the strat lift. NZ doesn't need the landing capabilities of the aircraft for the strat mission nor the defensive systems. The outsize cargo would be an advantage, but likely not decidedly so, as would the ramp loading.

If you consider that NZ currently operate two 757s in that role I expect the intention is to continue that model and look for an airliner variant. The runway at McMurdo is now capable of taking a decent airliner so something as large as an A330 is possible (which would be a good option although no NZ operated A330s at this time).
 
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Revelation
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Re: A400M Update Thread 2019

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:17 pm

Ozair wrote:
The A400M is a viable option for the strat component but I doubt has a very good chance. It was too much capability for the tactical lift and I expect it is both too capable and not capable enough for the strat lift. NZ doesn't need the landing capabilities of the aircraft for the strat mission nor the defensive systems. The outsize cargo would be an advantage, but likely not decidedly so, as would the ramp loading.

I think Tom Enders foretold this one:

Exporting the A400M is a very different game from the smaller transports built [at the same location] in Spain. The A400M is a product of the requirements of six [partner] nations who are very sophisticated, and you just don’t find those kind of customers around every corner,” Enders said on 14 February, adding, “I am optimistic that there will be exports, but it won’t be in the hundreds [of aircraft].”

Seems like people are happy to play the game they know instead of picking up a new game, especially because it has lower entry fees.

Seems like some members should read some of the comments in https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/sup ... red-option :

“After considering the range of military air transport aircraft carefully, the Super Hercules has been selected as it offers the necessary range and payload capability as well as fully meeting NZDF’s requirements,” says Ron Mark.

So much for those saying C130J lacked required capabilities.

The C-130J is a proven aircraft, with more than 400 C-130Js having been delivered to over 21 nations, including the United States, United Kingdom, Australia and Canada.

“It is used by key defence partners and carries a greater payload faster and further than the current fleet, with no loss of ability to land where our current Hercules are deployed.

Looks like they are happy with C130 family off field landing capabilities.

“Tactical air transport capability is one of the highest value assets available to New Zealand, offering huge utility to the community and nation, enabling movement of personnel and cargo around the country, the South Pacific, down to Antarctica and all around the globe.

“We need a proven performer, and this aircraft is tried and tested. We cannot take risks with what is one of our most critical military capabilities,” says Ron Mark.

It seems like Enders comments on the A400M program turning the corner on risk are not holding up in the market place.

Ozair wrote:
If you consider that NZ currently operate two 757s in that role I expect the intention is to continue that model and look for an airliner variant. The runway at McMurdo is now capable of taking a decent airliner so something as large as an A330 is possible (which would be a good option although no NZ operated A330s at this time).

Agree a small wide body seems better suited since 757s aren't being made any more, we don't have a cargo/militarized variant of A321, and a wide body's payload/range are really beneficial in that role.
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frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2811
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Re: A400M Update Thread 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
Ozair wrote:
The A400M is a viable option for the strat component but I doubt has a very good chance. It was too much capability for the tactical lift and I expect it is both too capable and not capable enough for the strat lift. NZ doesn't need the landing capabilities of the aircraft for the strat mission nor the defensive systems. The outsize cargo would be an advantage, but likely not decidedly so, as would the ramp loading.

I think Tom Enders foretold this one:

Exporting the A400M is a very different game from the smaller transports built [at the same location] in Spain. The A400M is a product of the requirements of six [partner] nations who are very sophisticated, and you just don’t find those kind of customers around every corner,” Enders said on 14 February, adding, “I am optimistic that there will be exports, but it won’t be in the hundreds [of aircraft].”

Seems like people are happy to play the game they know instead of picking up a new game, especially because it has lower entry fees.

Seems like some members should read some of the comments in https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/sup ... red-option :

“After considering the range of military air transport aircraft carefully, the Super Hercules has been selected as it offers the necessary range and payload capability as well as fully meeting NZDF’s requirements,” says Ron Mark.

So much for those saying C130J lacked required capabilities.

The C-130J is a proven aircraft, with more than 400 C-130Js having been delivered to over 21 nations, including the United States, United Kingdom, Australia and Canada.

“It is used by key defence partners and carries a greater payload faster and further than the current fleet, with no loss of ability to land where our current Hercules are deployed.

Looks like they are happy with C130 family off field landing capabilities.

“Tactical air transport capability is one of the highest value assets available to New Zealand, offering huge utility to the community and nation, enabling movement of personnel and cargo around the country, the South Pacific, down to Antarctica and all around the globe.

“We need a proven performer, and this aircraft is tried and tested. We cannot take risks with what is one of our most critical military capabilities,” says Ron Mark.

It seems like Enders comments on the A400M program turning the corner on risk are not holding up in the market place.

Ozair wrote:
If you consider that NZ currently operate two 757s in that role I expect the intention is to continue that model and look for an airliner variant. The runway at McMurdo is now capable of taking a decent airliner so something as large as an A330 is possible (which would be a good option although no NZ operated A330s at this time).

Agree a small wide body seems better suited since 757s aren't being made any more, we don't have a cargo/militarized variant of A321, and a wide body's payload/range are really beneficial in that role.


AHA, another role of the 797. LOL
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GDB
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Re: A400M Update Thread 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:07 pm

There might not be any civil A330's on the NZ register right now, however the RAAF operate the military variant, have deployed with it too. That might well be a deciding factor for the RNZAF, alongside 'proven' in general being a major factor in the C-130J selection, proven in RAAF service even better as far as they are concerned.
 
Ozair
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Re: A400M Update Thread 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:58 pm

GDB wrote:
There might not be any civil A330's on the NZ register right now, however the RAAF operate the military variant, have deployed with it too. That might well be a deciding factor for the RNZAF, alongside 'proven' in general being a major factor in the C-130J selection, proven in RAAF service even better as far as they are concerned.

Given Qantas service both their and the RAAF A330s out of Brisbane it does make sense. I do wonder if the A330 might be a bit big for what NZ are after but is probably the best option over likely older 767s to convert and too costly new builds for either.

The irony of the C-130J selection is I expect that Airbus will likely win the NZ C-130J sustainment. They have been the RAAF service provider for the last 10 years and continue to win the work at each contract tender.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1279
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Re: A400M Update Thread 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:24 am

There has been a new accord on the program, reducing the rate to 8 per year. Terms were not disclosed.

https://www.ft.com/content/ed8682bc-8ea ... 2f641eca37

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