User avatar
william
Topic Author
Posts: 3049
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:11 pm

https://www.ariane.group/en/photos-videos/

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech ... aily-brief

"CNES President Jean-Yves Le Gall acknowledged the tough international competition for commercial space launches and even acknowledged the elephant in the room of Elon Musk’s hugely visible and ambitious SpaceX program. “Ariane is one of Europe’s greatest technological, industrial and commercial success stories, and we must pursue that success in the face of strong international competition,” Le Gall said in a statement."

The highest form of flattery is imitation.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 4776
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:45 pm

I think it's a bit premature to say that they're launching a reusable rocket program at this stage. I would rather say that they're starting to seriously look into it.

But, yes. Arianespace is now acknowledging that they have been resting on their laurels for too long and that it's time they start looking at the future, especially in the face of suddenly fierce and innovative competition.

About time of you ask me. Competition is a great thing...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5943
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:59 pm

Ars Technica had a great article on the situation.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/02 ... d-you-are/

Consensus seems to be that Arianespace/Airbus will not aim to be competitive with SpaceX; just competitive enough so that its captive audience does not feel ripped-off.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
User avatar
william
Topic Author
Posts: 3049
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:52 pm

N328KF wrote:
Ars Technica had a great article on the situation.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/02 ... d-you-are/

Consensus seems to be that Arianespace/Airbus will not aim to be competitive with SpaceX; just competitive enough so that its captive audience does not feel ripped-off.


That's even more pathetic if true.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8359
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:36 pm

Francoflier wrote:
But, yes. Arianespace is now acknowledging that they have been resting on their laurels for too long and that it's time they start looking at the future, especially in the face of suddenly fierce and innovative competition.


They have been looking into that even before SpaceX existed afaik.
Thinks like fly-back boosters....
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9087
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:08 pm

william wrote:
N328KF wrote:
Ars Technica had a great article on the situation.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/02 ... d-you-are/

Consensus seems to be that Arianespace/Airbus will not aim to be competitive with SpaceX; just competitive enough so that its captive audience does not feel ripped-off.


That's even more pathetic if true.

Isn't that how all brands with a high quality reputation try to do it? Leveraging it to charge a higher price than some no name. Every company does it. It just for some reason seems unseemly when a defense corporation does it.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
User avatar
william
Topic Author
Posts: 3049
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:35 pm

Tugger wrote:
william wrote:
N328KF wrote:
Ars Technica had a great article on the situation.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/02 ... d-you-are/

Consensus seems to be that Arianespace/Airbus will not aim to be competitive with SpaceX; just competitive enough so that its captive audience does not feel ripped-off.


That's even more pathetic if true.

Isn't that how all brands with a high quality reputation try to do it? Leveraging it to charge a higher price than some no name. Every company does it. It just for some reason seems unseemly when a defense corporation does it.

Tugg


That may work with "some" customers (pricing slightly higher than Space X) but not the majority. Every completed launch Space X has lessens the need to pay the " lets go with the higher brand name to be safe" price. Would think a legacy maker like Ariane would want to do more than just get close Space X on bids.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1383
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:16 am

Does anyone have a good read on the financial impact of Arianespace on AB?
 
DarkKnight5
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:36 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:03 am

Planeflyer wrote:
Does anyone have a good read on the financial impact of Arianespace on AB?

Go find their financials on their website. Airbus I mean.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1383
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:50 am

Have looked and can’t see where they break it out. If you have a reference I’d appreciate the assist.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 895
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:37 am

william wrote:
N328KF wrote:
Ars Technica had a great article on the situation.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/02 ... d-you-are/

Consensus seems to be that Arianespace/Airbus will not aim to be competitive with SpaceX; just competitive enough so that its captive audience does not feel ripped-off.


That's even more pathetic if true.


Eh, they have different requirements than SpaceX. Arianespace is as arguably a jobs program for the investing nations and a backup option to space not controlled by an outside nation. That does affect how the budgets get drawn up. To go fully commercial and fight against SpaceX directly the various governments would have to accept a very real chance of the company going bust or part of the workshare program leaving their nation.

SpaceX largely avoids these political problems and has a good leadership team reinvesting income into new stuff. Making it even harder to catch up in a short period of time.
 
GDB
Posts: 13178
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:39 am

william wrote:
N328KF wrote:
Ars Technica had a great article on the situation.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/02 ... d-you-are/

Consensus seems to be that Arianespace/Airbus will not aim to be competitive with SpaceX; just competitive enough so that its captive audience does not feel ripped-off.


That's even more pathetic if true.


Nothing compared to the decades of keeping prices, including for the US taxpayer on government launches, of the traditional US launchers, which were also in turn developed and built by tax $.
While ESA/Ariane are government sourced and funded (for the same access to space reasons of the US and other governments), it was Ariane that has had plenty of success since the mid/to late 1980's with commercial launches, that led to competition which the US says it wants and believes in. But did not practice until Space X came along.

ESA will stick with Ariane for the same reasons the US will maintain launch capability, access to space with their own system, for the US that means keeping ULA in the game as well as supporting newer providers like Space X.

Seems to me that on here Ariane are criticized for for doing just what ULA and their predecessors did and even with the advent of Space X and others, will continue to do.
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5943
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:34 pm

GDB wrote:
william wrote:
N328KF wrote:
Ars Technica had a great article on the situation.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/02 ... d-you-are/

Consensus seems to be that Arianespace/Airbus will not aim to be competitive with SpaceX; just competitive enough so that its captive audience does not feel ripped-off.


That's even more pathetic if true.


Nothing compared to the decades of keeping prices, including for the US taxpayer on government launches, of the traditional US launchers, which were also in turn developed and built by tax $.

...

Seems to me that on here Ariane are criticized for for doing just what ULA and their predecessors did and even with the advent of Space X and others, will continue to do.


It certainly was true; ULA got complacent (as someone else said, eating steaks.) However, that party is over. As of their next Dragon 2 launch, SpaceX will be doing things Arianespace and ULA (in its modern form) have never done: put people into space. ULA will be following behind, but where is Arianespace? Arianespace, like the A380 and Galileo, is an exercise in hubris.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
DarkKnight5
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:36 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:54 pm

GDB wrote:
william wrote:
N328KF wrote:
Ars Technica had a great article on the situation.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/02 ... d-you-are/

Consensus seems to be that Arianespace/Airbus will not aim to be competitive with SpaceX; just competitive enough so that its captive audience does not feel ripped-off.


That's even more pathetic if true.


Nothing compared to the decades of keeping prices, including for the US taxpayer on government launches, of the traditional US launchers, which were also in turn developed and built by tax $.
While ESA/Ariane are government sourced and funded (for the same access to space reasons of the US and other governments), it was Ariane that has had plenty of success since the mid/to late 1980's with commercial launches, that led to competition which the US says it wants and believes in. But did not practice until Space X came along.

ESA will stick with Ariane for the same reasons the US will maintain launch capability, access to space with their own system, for the US that means keeping ULA in the game as well as supporting newer providers like Space X.

Seems to me that on here Ariane are criticized for for doing just what ULA and their predecessors did and even with the advent of Space X and others, will continue to do.

I think you’ll find plenty of criticism for ULA around here too.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8359
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:49 pm

DarkKnight5 wrote:
I think you’ll find plenty of criticism for ULA around here too.

Hmm, never noticed.
maybe under a different name? ............. like .......... Ariane :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
GDB
Posts: 13178
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:34 pm

N328KF wrote:
GDB wrote:
william wrote:

That's even more pathetic if true.


Nothing compared to the decades of keeping prices, including for the US taxpayer on government launches, of the traditional US launchers, which were also in turn developed and built by tax $.

...

Seems to me that on here Ariane are criticized for for doing just what ULA and their predecessors did and even with the advent of Space X and others, will continue to do.


It certainly was true; ULA got complacent (as someone else said, eating steaks.) However, that party is over. As of their next Dragon 2 launch, SpaceX will be doing things Arianespace and ULA (in its modern form) have never done: put people into space. ULA will be following behind, but where is Arianespace? Arianespace, like the A380 and Galileo, is an exercise in hubris.


Hubris? How about not being reliant on the US? Especially with the child squatting in the White House now.
The US does not have a god given right to be the only nation that launches into space and/or has total or near total dominance of the market, ironic considering how from Sputnik 1 to the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project it was all about NOT having the then USSR dominating in this field (quite rightly too).
Or are ESA only fit to be a (minor) player in US projects?
The Europeans should 'know their place?'

Both ESA and all the US launch providers up to Space X, (though even they have had help in both money and use of facilities from the US government), started out as government funded entities, ESA however went and for many years, grabbed a large slice of the commercial market. As both entities were subsidized, with Ariane 5 in particular, ESA had the better product.
But originally Ariane 5 was also to carry the Hermes Spaceplane, however ESA axed it in 1992, since the ISS was coming together, which would need the greater part of ESA's attention.
Since then, they had developed and flown to the ISS, the ATV, unmanned but a clear indication on that the technology is there, should a manned capability be desired in the future.

Surely 'hubris' would be building the Hermes when both the Shuttle and Soyuz were available?
 
mxaxai
Posts: 968
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:47 pm

At this point, there is no evidence that the reusability of their first stage is the key driver behind their low prices. Indeed, SpaceX have won several commercial launches where the first stage was expended. Cheap manufacturing is just as important to SpaceX' success. Cheaper manufacturing is also the idea behind Ariane 6. As it turns out, not yet cheap enough.

Further, the development of the Falcon 9 to the point we are at now took quite some time, included several setbacks, and most importantly started small. Unless SpaceX is willing to share the knowledge on how they do it, ArianeGroup will have to follow a similar path. As fundamental research is mostly left to ESA and ESA member's space agencies - who didn't show much interest in reusable rockets until recently - ArianeGroup will either have to carry the large risk alone, or convince politicians to fund the necessary research. It's a slow process.

Finally, SpaceX really shouldn't complain about subsidies. They would have been bankrupt many years ago had NASA not provided funding. Even today, ArianeGroup cannot compete for US government / NASA payloads.
 
GDB
Posts: 13178
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:18 pm

mxaxai wrote:
At this point, there is no evidence that the reusability of their first stage is the key driver behind their low prices. Indeed, SpaceX have won several commercial launches where the first stage was expended. Cheap manufacturing is just as important to SpaceX' success. Cheaper manufacturing is also the idea behind Ariane 6. As it turns out, not yet cheap enough.

Further, the development of the Falcon 9 to the point we are at now took quite some time, included several setbacks, and most importantly started small. Unless SpaceX is willing to share the knowledge on how they do it, ArianeGroup will have to follow a similar path. As fundamental research is mostly left to ESA and ESA member's space agencies - who didn't show much interest in reusable rockets until recently - ArianeGroup will either have to carry the large risk alone, or convince politicians to fund the necessary research. It's a slow process.

Finally, SpaceX really shouldn't complain about subsidies. They would have been bankrupt many years ago had NASA not provided funding. Even today, ArianeGroup cannot compete for US government / NASA payloads.


Though they did get the James Webb launch, albeit as part of a general workshare agreement.
But I have no problem in Ariane being excluded from DoD, NSA and certain NASA launches that are in the Venn Diagram of US Government/military. Totally sensible, reason enough to keep ULA in the business to hedge against a major Space X failure in one form or other - though at this stage, if a financial failure, Musk would get help. Fair play, he's earned becoming so important to the US space effort.

This is why I don't understand why Europe, in the form of ESA and Ariane, gets attacked for doing the same thing. Which does rather undermine objections from Musk or anyone else.
There are such things as sensitive European payloads, military sats etc.
As well as ones the US might not like as a rival (Galileo being one).
Hence the need for an ESA launch capability.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9087
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:21 pm

mxaxai wrote:
At this point, there is no evidence that the reusability of their first stage is the key driver behind their low prices. Indeed, SpaceX have won several commercial launches where the first stage was expended. Cheap manufacturing is just as important to SpaceX' success. Cheaper manufacturing is also the idea behind Ariane 6. As it turns out, not yet cheap enough.

Further, the development of the Falcon 9 to the point we are at now took quite some time, included several setbacks, and most importantly started small. Unless SpaceX is willing to share the knowledge on how they do it, ArianeGroup will have to follow a similar path. As fundamental research is mostly left to ESA and ESA member's space agencies - who didn't show much interest in reusable rockets until recently - ArianeGroup will either have to carry the large risk alone, or convince politicians to fund the necessary research. It's a slow process.

Finally, SpaceX really shouldn't complain about subsidies. They would have been bankrupt many years ago had NASA not provided funding. Even today, ArianeGroup cannot compete for US government / NASA payloads.

Also I don't think SpaceX has large pension obligations to fund and their workforce is overall younger and likely lower cost than the majors. Not knocking them for that, just noting that it helps with costs.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
DarkKnight5
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:36 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:35 pm

WIederling wrote:
DarkKnight5 wrote:
I think you’ll find plenty of criticism for ULA around here too.

Hmm, never noticed.
maybe under a different name? ............. like .......... Ariane :-)

I think the reason you don’t see ULA criticized as often is because they’re so boring and basically nobody writes about them at all. It seems like forever since their last launch.

I’ll criticize them here though: they have been fleecing american tax payers for years, and in terms of space vehicle development their parent companies are doubly guilty.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1383
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:27 pm

Amazing how space works. For years there was very little innovation, competition or growth.

Then Spacex disrupts everthing and now they and their crazy fantastic launches are taken for granted.

Just amazing.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 895
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:28 am

Planeflyer wrote:
Amazing how space works. For years there was very little innovation, competition or growth.

Then Spacex disrupts everthing and now they and their crazy fantastic launches are taken for granted.

Just amazing.


It's a pretty expensive and risky industry to get into. You could argue we have the same with passenger planes. A few incumbents and seemingly little innovation from the customer experience side.

And the modern lot of rocket companies have jumped on new technologies 100% and have taken full advantage of it. All that modern machining and additive manufacturing technology has really shaken up the aerospace market.

Not to say SpaceX doesn't deserve praise. They're been one of the first on the blocks and with their success they haven't chosen to slow down and enjoy it but kept pressing on. And I think a lot of that comes not only from Musk but also Shotwell who's managed to focus SpaceX on actually getting a proper revenue stream. Without her I think SpaceX would be in the same crap Tesla's in.

Plus the workers who appear to be working crazy hours which can't really be good for the long term if it burns everyone up. Hopefully we'll see more tech workers unionise to help lessen that to a healthy level.

Anyways, SpaceX has done a heap of cool stuff, but part of that is timing and another is funding.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1383
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:39 am

Good points, all. It just seems like if it weren’t for musk , bezos and nasa’s idea to create competition we’d be where were in the 90’s.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8359
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:36 am

DarkKnight5 wrote:
... they have been fleecing american tax payers for years, and in terms of space vehicle development their parent companies are doubly guilty.

Are they over achievers in that domain or are they just a group swimmer in scope of the (US) military industrial complex? :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
mxaxai
Posts: 968
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:01 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Good points, all. It just seems like if it weren’t for musk , bezos and nasa’s idea to create competition we’d be where were in the 90’s.

Don't forget Orbital ATK with Antares.

Also, there was and is significant international competition. There's a reason why Ariane 5 was the preferred launcher for heavy commercial payloads until Falcon 9 came along. ULA was (and is) kept alive solely by government funding.
One should note that Ariane 6 is proposed to be already much cheaper than Ariane 5, at US$ ~90 million € vs. US$ ~180 million for a double launch. While Falcon 9 is significantly cheaper per launch, the (published) cost per kilogram to GTO is actually higher than with Ariane 6. Of course the exact mission parameters can sway the balance in favor of one or the other.

Much like aircraft prices, though, official launch costs are most likely quite different from what each customer actually pays.
 
DarkKnight5
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:36 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:48 pm

WIederling wrote:
DarkKnight5 wrote:
... they have been fleecing american tax payers for years, and in terms of space vehicle development their parent companies are doubly guilty.

Are they over achievers in that domain or are they just a group swimmer in scope of the (US) military industrial complex? :-)

Talking about Boeing and Lockheed, so I guess at the forefront.
 
neutronstar73
Posts: 791
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:57 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:25 pm

DarkKnight5 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
DarkKnight5 wrote:
I think you’ll find plenty of criticism for ULA around here too.

Hmm, never noticed.
maybe under a different name? ............. like .......... Ariane :-)

I think the reason you don’t see ULA criticized as often is because they’re so boring and basically nobody writes about them at all. It seems like forever since their last launch.

I’ll criticize them here though: they have been fleecing american tax payers for years, and in terms of space vehicle development their parent companies are doubly guilty.


Yeah...I suggest you read Space Barons. Interesting read. Boeing and Lockheed, really, had no incentive to innovate. Why should they? The government was going to either pay them to launch stuff, or, go with (gasp) China (NO WAY), Russia (nope, especially for sensitive launches), Arianespace (same thing), or not get anything to orbit.

SpaceX and Orbital, the small fish, were able to upset the apple cart, and more so for SpaceX. I think Musk is doing an absolutely bang-up job, and yet, he gets loads of criticism from all quarters. He, IMO, is
1. Single-handedly trying to drag American car manufacturing into the future (through Tesla)
2. Send a lot of the energy companies into the dirt (through Solar City and his Tesla Powerwall technology), and free Americans to use their money elsewhere
3. Put America back into pole position in space, and I think he's basically done that. He practically pushed ULA to FINALLY stop relying on Russian technology (they've teamed with Blue Origin...American made rocket engines).

Heck, even China basically admitted years ago that they were unable to compete with SpaceX on costs. And I think Arianespace will find it a bit "too little, too late".
 
DarkKnight5
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:36 pm

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:14 am

neutronstar73 wrote:
DarkKnight5 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Hmm, never noticed.
maybe under a different name? ............. like .......... Ariane :-)

I think the reason you don’t see ULA criticized as often is because they’re so boring and basically nobody writes about them at all. It seems like forever since their last launch.

I’ll criticize them here though: they have been fleecing american tax payers for years, and in terms of space vehicle development their parent companies are doubly guilty.


Yeah...I suggest you read Space Barons. Interesting read. Boeing and Lockheed, really, had no incentive to innovate. Why should they? The government was going to either pay them to launch stuff, or, go with (gasp) China (NO WAY), Russia (nope, especially for sensitive launches), Arianespace (same thing), or not get anything to orbit.

SpaceX and Orbital, the small fish, were able to upset the apple cart, and more so for SpaceX. I think Musk is doing an absolutely bang-up job, and yet, he gets loads of criticism from all quarters. He, IMO, is
1. Single-handedly trying to drag American car manufacturing into the future (through Tesla)
2. Send a lot of the energy companies into the dirt (through Solar City and his Tesla Powerwall technology), and free Americans to use their money elsewhere
3. Put America back into pole position in space, and I think he's basically done that. He practically pushed ULA to FINALLY stop relying on Russian technology (they've teamed with Blue Origin...American made rocket engines).

Heck, even China basically admitted years ago that they were unable to compete with SpaceX on costs. And I think Arianespace will find it a bit "too little, too late".

Preach man. I’m with you 100%
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1383
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: ARIANEGROUP launches reusable rocket program

Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:33 am

I think it’s more of a mind set issue. Satalites up untill recently cost in the billions of $ so the emphasis on the launcher was reliability, reliability and reliability .

Against this backdrop the launchers also uber expensive.

Musks vision and money coincided w the needs of the existing customer base while opening whole new opportunities. Very difficult to do. Basically he brought capitalism to the space business where before this had not happened.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos