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Planeflyer
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:48 am

Is there a stated mission?
 
Mortyman
Topic Author
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Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:54 am

lhrnue wrote:
vr773 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Norway alo has a brand New replenishment ship:

Image



So .... Norway built an A350.


That's a 530 and no, it was built in Korea …. unfortuently
 
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Amazonski
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:07 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Is there a stated mission?

Turning EU into a real political union is a good one. Also building an EU carrier strike group may lead to creation of EU Marines Corps -> EU Armed Forces etc....
 
Kiwirob
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:43 pm

Mortyman wrote:
lhrnue wrote:
vr773 wrote:


So .... Norway built an A350.


That's a 530 and no, it was built in Korea …. unfortuently


So which Norwegian yard could have built this ship? At best they might have assembled blocks barged over from Poland or Romania but there aren’t any yards who could have built the entire vessel from the keel up in Norway anymore.
 
A101
Posts: 2159
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:56 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
I'm also in favour of EU countries abandoning NATO,


Wow very refreshing to see someone actual say it,

How are you expecting to replace the lost USD the security umbrella and logistic support of the US. and what of Canada and the UK along with the cooperation of non-member contributions. what impacts do they have on your judgement if NATO collapses. How would a European defence force work and its area of reasonability, how does it implement the overseas territories with the likes of France and The Netherlands,

What sort of treaty do you expect of the United States after NATO. Once the United State withdrawals funding which accounts for roughly 22% of direct funding to the alliance and indirectly the United States accounts for roughly 72% in 2017. But within Europe itself the 3 main contributors are Germany France and the UK, if the UK exits the EU this will only further compound the funding and capability problems of an EUDF


In its June 2017 update on spending, NATO said: “Today, the volume of the US defence expenditure effectively represents 72 per cent of the defence spending of the Alliance as a whole.”


As NATO said in the June update: “This does not mean that the United States covers 72 per cent of the costs involved in the operational running of NATO as an organisation, including its headquarters in Brussels and its subordinate military commands, but it does mean that there is an over-reliance by the Alliance as a whole on the United States for the provision of essential capabilities, including for instance, in regard to intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance; air-to-air refuelling; ballistic missile defence; and airborne electronic warfare.”


https://www.factcheck.org/2017/12/disto ... ng-figure/
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1527
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:42 am

A101 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
I'm also in favour of EU countries abandoning NATO,


Wow very refreshing to see someone actual say it,

How are you expecting to replace the lost USD the security umbrella and logistic support of the US. and what of Canada and the UK along with the cooperation of non-member contributions. what impacts do they have on your judgement if NATO collapses. How would a European defence force work and its area of reasonability, how does it implement the overseas territories with the likes of France and The Netherlands,

What sort of treaty do you expect of the United States after NATO. Once the United State withdrawals funding which accounts for roughly 22% of direct funding to the alliance and indirectly the United States accounts for roughly 72% in 2017. But within Europe itself the 3 main contributors are Germany France and the UK, if the UK exits the EU this will only further compound the funding and capability problems of an EUDF


In its June 2017 update on spending, NATO said: “Today, the volume of the US defence expenditure effectively represents 72 per cent of the defence spending of the Alliance as a whole.”


As NATO said in the June update: “This does not mean that the United States covers 72 per cent of the costs involved in the operational running of NATO as an organisation, including its headquarters in Brussels and its subordinate military commands, but it does mean that there is an over-reliance by the Alliance as a whole on the United States for the provision of essential capabilities, including for instance, in regard to intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance; air-to-air refuelling; ballistic missile defence; and airborne electronic warfare.”


https://www.factcheck.org/2017/12/disto ... ng-figure/


May I recommend those in favor of further weakening let alone abandoning NATO perform a Google search “ Major European wars.”

Good grief, read a book or two before you mouth off!
 
A101
Posts: 2159
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:10 am

Planeflyer wrote:

May I recommend those in favor of further weakening let alone abandoning NATO perform a Google search “ Major European wars.”

Good grief, read a book or two before you mouth off!


Good grief are you saying that kiwirob can’t have a view point, I’m sure he has read a book or two about European history prior to 49 and also the role of NATO in the Cold War up to its current position.

I’m just interested to see how a European defence force would work if NATO collapses under the brinkmanship of Europe today and Trump White House could it survive another 4 years and hope whoever replaces trump long term can restore the relationship post trump presidentialship
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:12 am

Anybody calling for an end to NATO hasn’t read enough of the right books.....or lives so far from Europe that they can afford cavalier views.

Trump is calling for a stronger NATO.

If you want too see what the future looks like w/o NATO look no further than the disaster in the Balkans( which few expected).

To review, the Europeans requested to take the lead, Bush in light of the collapse of the Soviet Union acceded, like countless times before unity among the European powers lasted but a few months and the disaster ensued.

W NATO Europe faces no imminent outside threats, w/o it Russia would create havoc in the East which the Western European countries would be incapable of managing.

Oh and the carrier plan adds nothing to NATO especially considering France and Germany’s AF will be fully obsolete wi 10 years.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13033
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:57 am

Planeflyer wrote:
A101 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
I'm also in favour of EU countries abandoning NATO,


Wow very refreshing to see someone actual say it,

How are you expecting to replace the lost USD the security umbrella and logistic support of the US. and what of Canada and the UK along with the cooperation of non-member contributions. what impacts do they have on your judgement if NATO collapses. How would a European defence force work and its area of reasonability, how does it implement the overseas territories with the likes of France and The Netherlands,

What sort of treaty do you expect of the United States after NATO. Once the United State withdrawals funding which accounts for roughly 22% of direct funding to the alliance and indirectly the United States accounts for roughly 72% in 2017. But within Europe itself the 3 main contributors are Germany France and the UK, if the UK exits the EU this will only further compound the funding and capability problems of an EUDF


In its June 2017 update on spending, NATO said: “Today, the volume of the US defence expenditure effectively represents 72 per cent of the defence spending of the Alliance as a whole.”


As NATO said in the June update: “This does not mean that the United States covers 72 per cent of the costs involved in the operational running of NATO as an organisation, including its headquarters in Brussels and its subordinate military commands, but it does mean that there is an over-reliance by the Alliance as a whole on the United States for the provision of essential capabilities, including for instance, in regard to intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance; air-to-air refuelling; ballistic missile defence; and airborne electronic warfare.”


https://www.factcheck.org/2017/12/disto ... ng-figure/


May I recommend those in favor of further weakening let alone abandoning NATO perform a Google search “ Major European wars.”

Good grief, read a book or two before you mouth off!


The world and Europe have changed significantly since the WW2, I also see the EU and it’s predecessors as the glue that has kept Europeans from fighting each other, not NATO. The US has abused NATO by calling on its partners to help fight its pointless wars.

I don’t see Russia as a threat to Europe any more than the US is. Russia is not the Soviet Union, it’s does not have the ability to invade Europe, not enough men, not enough hardware, not enough of anything to do the job.
 
DarkKnight5
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:36 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:55 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
A101 wrote:

Wow very refreshing to see someone actual say it,

How are you expecting to replace the lost USD the security umbrella and logistic support of the US. and what of Canada and the UK along with the cooperation of non-member contributions. what impacts do they have on your judgement if NATO collapses. How would a European defence force work and its area of reasonability, how does it implement the overseas territories with the likes of France and The Netherlands,

What sort of treaty do you expect of the United States after NATO. Once the United State withdrawals funding which accounts for roughly 22% of direct funding to the alliance and indirectly the United States accounts for roughly 72% in 2017. But within Europe itself the 3 main contributors are Germany France and the UK, if the UK exits the EU this will only further compound the funding and capability problems of an EUDF






https://www.factcheck.org/2017/12/disto ... ng-figure/


May I recommend those in favor of further weakening let alone abandoning NATO perform a Google search “ Major European wars.”

Good grief, read a book or two before you mouth off!


The world and Europe have changed significantly since the WW2, I also see the EU and it’s predecessors as the glue that has kept Europeans from fighting each other, not NATO. The US has abused NATO by calling on its partners to help fight its pointless wars.

I don’t see Russia as a threat to Europe any more than the US is. Russia is not the Soviet Union, it’s does not have the ability to invade Europe, not enough men, not enough hardware, not enough of anything to do the job.

*cough*nukes*cough*
 
A101
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:26 am

DarkKnight5 wrote:


*cough*nukes*cough*


That’s MAD and every nuclear capable nation knows it, even uncle Kim knows that, the only ones that don’t are ideological driven nut bags who just want to I’ll on a wide scale
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:23 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
lhrnue wrote:

So .... Norway built an A350.


That's a 530 and no, it was built in Korea …. unfortuently


So which Norwegian yard could have built this ship? At best they might have assembled blocks barged over from Poland or Romania but there aren’t any yards who could have built the entire vessel from the keel up in Norway anymore.


Nobody in his right mind will build ships "from the keel up" today.

Sections is the way to go. Fully independent of those sections being build off yard or on yard or a mix.
Same for superstructure. They are done as modules and then craned in.
guess where Airbus borrowed its production model from ( goes back to WWII and submarine assembly :-)
( good example for the setup is/was the "Peene Werft" at Wolgast.
sections are build indoors, moved out to the dockside and either going to their place via elevator sectors in the dry dock
or craned in depending on size and position.)

Then the real talent today is in designing your ship (and the division into sections ) and planning/handling logistics.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13033
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:09 am

DarkKnight5 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:

May I recommend those in favor of further weakening let alone abandoning NATO perform a Google search “ Major European wars.”

Good grief, read a book or two before you mouth off!


The world and Europe have changed significantly since the WW2, I also see the EU and it’s predecessors as the glue that has kept Europeans from fighting each other, not NATO. The US has abused NATO by calling on its partners to help fight its pointless wars.

I don’t see Russia as a threat to Europe any more than the US is. Russia is not the Soviet Union, it’s does not have the ability to invade Europe, not enough men, not enough hardware, not enough of anything to do the job.

*cough*nukes*cough*


Cough*France*cough*UK*cough
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13033
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:29 am

WIederling wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

That's a 530 and no, it was built in Korea …. unfortuently


So which Norwegian yard could have built this ship? At best they might have assembled blocks barged over from Poland or Romania but there aren’t any yards who could have built the entire vessel from the keel up in Norway anymore.


Nobody in his right mind will build ships "from the keel up" today.

Sections is the way to go. Fully independent of those sections being build off yard or on yard or a mix.
Same for superstructure. They are done as modules and then craned in.
guess where Airbus borrowed its production model from ( goes back to WWII and submarine assembly :-)
( good example for the setup is/was the "Peene Werft" at Wolgast.
sections are build indoors, moved out to the dockside and either going to their place via elevator sectors in the dry dock
or craned in depending on size and position.)

Then the real talent today is in designing your ship (and the division into sections ) and planning/handling logistics.


All yards have different methods of shipbuilding, it all depends on what capabilities they have. The size and type of vessel being built also plays a part in how the vessel is built. I get to go to shipyards all the time through my job as a supplier to the shipbuilding industry.

My point was there are no shipyards in Norway today who could have built Queen Maud, Norway lost most of its shipbuilding capability decades ago.
 
olle
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:18 pm

EU countries right now double their defense spending. An German politician rightly said with this Germany will become the biggest spender on defense in Europe.

With UK a strong Nato defender leaving combined with Germany changing closer to the French view that Nato article 5 cannot be trusted an EU defense is the logical step.

In this is also a major navy investment in order to present global present is logical.
 
olle
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:21 pm

Regarding Norway and EU the moment of thruth will come around 2035 when EU usage of oil and some years after that gas starts to be replaced by electrical sources for transport industry and heating.

I guess that 2040 will be a year that Norway might join the EU club both for economical and defense purpose.
 
Draken21fx
Posts: 241
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:20 pm

This makes no sense to me. You first build the foundations of the house and only later you take care of the loft.
Happy to be corrected but as far as I know there is no strong EU military cooperation/force outside of FRONTEX and NATO. Talking about adding an aircraft career is just crazy.
Also who will be taking the decision where the aircraft will be stationed or used? Baltic? North Sea? Eastern Mediterranean?

There are so many things to be solved before we realistically discuss about a common EU force that I dont see it happening anytime soon.
 
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Tugger
Posts: 10728
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:26 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
A101 wrote:

Wow very refreshing to see someone actual say it,

How are you expecting to replace the lost USD the security umbrella and logistic support of the US. and what of Canada and the UK along with the cooperation of non-member contributions. what impacts do they have on your judgement if NATO collapses. How would a European defence force work and its area of reasonability, how does it implement the overseas territories with the likes of France and The Netherlands,

What sort of treaty do you expect of the United States after NATO. Once the United State withdrawals funding which accounts for roughly 22% of direct funding to the alliance and indirectly the United States accounts for roughly 72% in 2017. But within Europe itself the 3 main contributors are Germany France and the UK, if the UK exits the EU this will only further compound the funding and capability problems of an EUDF






https://www.factcheck.org/2017/12/disto ... ng-figure/


May I recommend those in favor of further weakening let alone abandoning NATO perform a Google search “ Major European wars.”

Good grief, read a book or two before you mouth off!


The world and Europe have changed significantly since the WW2, I also see the EU and it’s predecessors as the glue that has kept Europeans from fighting each other, not NATO. The US has abused NATO by calling on its partners to help fight its pointless wars.

I don’t see Russia as a threat to Europe any more than the US is. Russia is not the Soviet Union, it’s does not have the ability to invade Europe, not enough men, not enough hardware, not enough of anything to do the job.

Kiwirob, you didn't address A101's question at all really. The most important part of the comment deals with how will the EU provide support into itself if it is attacked and its domestic sources are impacted? That it a huge issue that NATO addresses and any future military alliance will of course directly address. The massive strength of NATO is that it is near impossible to cut off resupply because of the global nature of the alliance partners.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
A101
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:35 pm

olle wrote:
EU countries right now double their defense spending. An German politician rightly said with this Germany will become the biggest spender on defense in Europe.


Who has right now doubled defence spending?

and what are the goals of the increased funds France is not expecting to reach 2% of GDP until the mid 2020's yes Germany has said it will increase but Germany has no choice but to increase or we will see further deterioration of German forces and they may only get to 1.5% within the next couple of years

olle wrote:
With UK a strong Nato defender leaving combined with Germany changing closer to the French view that Nato article 5 cannot be trusted an EU defense is the logical step.


The possible UK withdrawal from the UK doesn't affect commitments to NATO, the only way that happens if NATO disbands and no other treaty takes its place


olle wrote:
In this is also a major navy investment in order to present global present is logical.



I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, is the EU carrier plan logical or are you saying that the EU Army/Defence force think more global?
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:56 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:

May I recommend those in favor of further weakening let alone abandoning NATO perform a Google search “ Major European wars.”

Good grief, read a book or two before you mouth off!


The world and Europe have changed significantly since the WW2, I also see the EU and it’s predecessors as the glue that has kept Europeans from fighting each other, not NATO. The US has abused NATO by calling on its partners to help fight its pointless wars.

I don’t see Russia as a threat to Europe any more than the US is. Russia is not the Soviet Union, it’s does not have the ability to invade Europe, not enough men, not enough hardware, not enough of anything to do the job.

Kiwirob, you didn't address A101's question at all really. The most important part of the comment deals with how will the EU provide support into itself if it is attacked and its domestic sources are impacted? That it a huge issue that NATO addresses and any future military alliance will of course directly address. The massive strength of NATO is that it is near impossible to cut off resupply because of the global nature of the alliance partners.

Tugg


Who is going to attack the EU?
 
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Tugger
Posts: 10728
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:58 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

The world and Europe have changed significantly since the WW2, I also see the EU and it’s predecessors as the glue that has kept Europeans from fighting each other, not NATO. The US has abused NATO by calling on its partners to help fight its pointless wars.

I don’t see Russia as a threat to Europe any more than the US is. Russia is not the Soviet Union, it’s does not have the ability to invade Europe, not enough men, not enough hardware, not enough of anything to do the job.

Kiwirob, you didn't address A101's question at all really. The most important part of the comment deals with how will the EU provide support into itself if it is attacked and its domestic sources are impacted? That it a huge issue that NATO addresses and any future military alliance will of course directly address. The massive strength of NATO is that it is near impossible to cut off resupply because of the global nature of the alliance partners.

Tugg


Who is going to attack the EU?

Exactly.

That is why there are alliances like this, it creates just that situation.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13033
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:18 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob, you didn't address A101's question at all really. The most important part of the comment deals with how will the EU provide support into itself if it is attacked and its domestic sources are impacted? That it a huge issue that NATO addresses and any future military alliance will of course directly address. The massive strength of NATO is that it is near impossible to cut off resupply because of the global nature of the alliance partners.

Tugg


Who is going to attack the EU?

Exactly.

That is why there are alliances like this, it creates just that situation.

Tugg


I don’t believe in today’s world NATO makes the EU any more secure than it would be if NATO ended. All that would happen is the EU would stump up more for it own defence, the US isn’t a reliable partner and it’s not one that can be trusted. US sanctions against Russia and Iran haven’t made the world safer is a good example and they certainly have not benefited the EU.
 
DarkKnight5
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:36 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:42 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Who is going to attack the EU?

Exactly.

That is why there are alliances like this, it creates just that situation.

Tugg


I don’t believe in today’s world NATO makes the EU any more secure than it would be if NATO ended. All that would happen is the EU would stump up more for it own defence, the US isn’t a reliable partner and it’s not one that can be trusted. US sanctions against Russia and Iran haven’t made the world safer is a good example and they certainly have not benefited the EU.

Ahhh there’s the bias. The US intervened in each of the World Wars on behalf of allies, and would do so again since Western Europe is the most ideologically and culturally aligned region to the US in the entire world. The US would not only defend Europe if it was attacked by a peer, but it would lead the defense. To suggest otherwise is just silly.
 
Mortyman
Topic Author
Posts: 5871
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:55 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
lhrnue wrote:

So .... Norway built an A350.


That's a 530 and no, it was built in Korea …. unfortuently


So which Norwegian yard could have built this ship? At best they might have assembled blocks barged over from Poland or Romania but there aren’t any yards who could have built the entire vessel from the keel up in Norway anymore.



Yes there is, wich is why 3 new coast guard ships are gonna be built in Norway.
 
Spar
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:37 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:50 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Who is going to attack the EU?

Possibly the same country that is currently dismembering Ukraine.
Keep in mind that an "attack" on the EU doesn't necessarily equate to a blitzkrieg invasion ala 1941; but rather a pressure on the periphery that works against the EU's interests and options.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1527
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:37 am

For those that doubt the positive impact of NATO here’s a thought exercise; pick any year between 1000 AD and 1945 and more than likely you will discover a war being waged on the European continent.

But after 1945 the Balkan conflict has been the only war to take place and this was the one time Europe attempted to deal w a security issue outside of NATO.

A pretty enviable track record that we’d be crazy to abandon. Sure there are problems as there are in alliance but let’s not throw the baby out with bath water.
 
vr773
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:10 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:09 am

Planeflyer wrote:
...
Trump is calling for a stronger NATO.
...


He’s not calling for a stronger NATO. He’s using a NATO agreement that he doesn’t understand to appear tough to his shrinking base domestically.

That’s the only thing that motivates his entire “foreign policy”.
 
LMP737
Posts: 6049
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:49 am

They might want to fix the issues the German Navy currently has first.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/1 ... -christmas
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
vr773
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:10 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:12 am

LMP737 wrote:
They might want to fix the issues the German Navy currently has first.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/1 ... -christmas


And how are they not fixing it? If you buy something that’s broken you return it. That’s what the German navy did according to the 2017 article you linked.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13033
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:32 am

Planeflyer wrote:
For those that doubt the positive impact of NATO here’s a thought exercise; pick any year between 1000 AD and 1945 and more than likely you will discover a war being waged on the European continent.

But after 1945 the Balkan conflict has been the only war to take place and this was the one time Europe attempted to deal w a security issue outside of NATO.

A pretty enviable track record that we’d be crazy to abandon. Sure there are problems as there are in alliance but let’s not throw the baby out with bath water.


Why do we need NATO when almost all European countries are linked together under the EU?
 
WIederling
Posts: 9348
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:18 am

Spar wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Who is going to attack the EU?

Possibly the same country that is currently dismembering Ukraine.
Keep in mind that an "attack" on the EU doesn't necessarily equate to a blitzkrieg invasion ala 1941; but rather a pressure on the periphery that works against the EU's interests and options.


Baloney!

Ukraine is dismembering itself. systemic corruption egged on by US interests.

What we, the EU, currently see is a full spectrum attack from the NATO member USA.
Really no tool unused except for a direct military attack. ( But military force is used
at the fringe in these "bringing freedom" indirect attacks on the EU.
And I do see the refugee streams as a new attack vector used here.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
olle
Posts: 2373
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:11 am

Who will attack EU? You could ask; who will attack USA?

You do not attack a strong country that can use great force.

But right now you can ask people in Riga, Tallin and Kaunas who will attack EU and you might get answers.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9348
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:29 am

olle wrote:
Who will attack EU? You could ask; who will attack USA?

You do not attack a strong country that can use great force.

But right now you can ask people in Riga, Tallin and Kaunas who will attack EU and you might get answers.


Ob Niven:
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/698922 ... ever-stand

Some entities would really benefit from heeding this advice. ( and eject those US/Nato forces. Territory of former GDR
still has no Nato elements stationed as promised in the 2+4 talks back when .. )
Murphy is an optimist
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1527
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
For those that doubt the positive impact of NATO here’s a thought exercise; pick any year between 1000 AD and 1945 and more than likely you will discover a war being waged on the European continent.

But after 1945 the Balkan conflict has been the only war to take place and this was the one time Europe attempted to deal w a security issue outside of NATO.

A pretty enviable track record that we’d be crazy to abandon. Sure there are problems as there are in alliance but let’s not throw the baby out with bath water.


Why do we need NATO when almost all European countries are linked together under the EU?


The EU is what it is partly because of NATO. Take NATO away and w/i a generation or two the EU will change for the worse. I'd recommend a close review of what happened in the Balkans
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:25 pm

olle wrote:
Who will attack EU? You could ask; who will attack USA?

You do not attack a strong country that can use great force.

But right now you can ask people in Riga, Tallin and Kaunas who will attack EU and you might get answers.


But nobody is threatening Riga, Tallinn and Kaunas, it’s only paranoia on behalf of the ethnic populations. Russia doesn’t have the means to invade Europe.
 
Kiwirob
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:26 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
For those that doubt the positive impact of NATO here’s a thought exercise; pick any year between 1000 AD and 1945 and more than likely you will discover a war being waged on the European continent.

But after 1945 the Balkan conflict has been the only war to take place and this was the one time Europe attempted to deal w a security issue outside of NATO.

A pretty enviable track record that we’d be crazy to abandon. Sure there are problems as there are in alliance but let’s not throw the baby out with bath water.


Why do we need NATO when almost all European countries are linked together under the EU?


The EU is what it is partly because of NATO. Take NATO away and w/i a generation or two the EU will change for the worse. I'd recommend a close review of what happened in the Balkans


Bollocks the balkans was a mess long before the fall of the iron curtain, it only stayed together as Yugoslavia as long as it did because of Tito.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:54 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Why do we need NATO when almost all European countries are linked together under the EU?


The EU is what it is partly because of NATO. Take NATO away and w/i a generation or two the EU will change for the worse. I'd recommend a close review of what happened in the Balkans


Bollocks the balkans was a mess long before the fall of the iron curtain, it only stayed together as Yugoslavia as long as it did because of Tito.


Wars start in large part because we so easily forget the past and assume it’s different now.

Yes the Balkans were and are filled w tensions but w/o Nato the war soon descended to Genocide.

The US relaxed and deferred to the Europeans who were sure they could handle the situation. In no time, like so many times before a small conflict got out of hand. Luckily Russia was preoccupied or the war Could have been much worse.

Only when nato was brought back into command was the situation resolved.

As someone brilliantly stated those that don’t understand history are doomed to repeat it.
 
DarkKnight5
Posts: 242
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:36 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
For those that doubt the positive impact of NATO here’s a thought exercise; pick any year between 1000 AD and 1945 and more than likely you will discover a war being waged on the European continent.

But after 1945 the Balkan conflict has been the only war to take place and this was the one time Europe attempted to deal w a security issue outside of NATO.

A pretty enviable track record that we’d be crazy to abandon. Sure there are problems as there are in alliance but let’s not throw the baby out with bath water.


Why do we need NATO when almost all European countries are linked together under the EU?

To formalize an alliance with non-EU countries, one of which is the greatest military power in the world, thereby further strengthening the defense of the EU? Just a thought.
 
DarkKnight5
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:41 pm

WIederling wrote:
Spar wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Who is going to attack the EU?

Possibly the same country that is currently dismembering Ukraine.
Keep in mind that an "attack" on the EU doesn't necessarily equate to a blitzkrieg invasion ala 1941; but rather a pressure on the periphery that works against the EU's interests and options.


Baloney!

Ukraine is dismembering itself. systemic corruption egged on by US interests.

What we, the EU, currently see is a full spectrum attack from the NATO member USA.
Really no tool unused except for a direct military attack. ( But military force is used
at the fringe in these "bringing freedom" indirect attacks on the EU.
And I do see the refugee streams as a new attack vector used here.)

Ridiculous.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:12 pm

anytime W ponders anything to do w the USA reality fades away.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:42 pm

To answer those who question what the America brings to the EU via the NATO alliance:
Supply lines

I thought I already answered that earlier but maybe I didn't.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:52 am

Tugger wrote:
To answer those who question what the America brings to the EU via the NATO alliance:
Supply lines

I thought I already answered that earlier but maybe I didn't.

Tugg



No doubt supply lines are important but more important is that the vast majority of US military power is not based in Europe so is not a threat to the rest of the alliance or for that matter Russia.

Besides W, no European ever Worries that US forces will become occupying forces.

The challenge in Europe has been the inability to balance deterrence w Military strength.

If nato disbands than right away all the European countries need to double or even triple standing militaries. And w indefensible borders through most of the Continent, in a pinch there is strong motivation to strike first and to go deep.

And since everyone knows all this, previous alliances, in a crunch disappear as it’s every man for himself.

Just imagine what the Central European states would do if NATO disbanded ?
 
A101
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:10 am

Armchair generals study tactics while professionals study logistics, the US military is not the greatest military because it has the most guns, tank and fighters. But because it can get supply those weapons system move troops anywhere in the world and keep them there and shooting for longer periods.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13033
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:52 am

DarkKnight5 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
For those that doubt the positive impact of NATO here’s a thought exercise; pick any year between 1000 AD and 1945 and more than likely you will discover a war being waged on the European continent.

But after 1945 the Balkan conflict has been the only war to take place and this was the one time Europe attempted to deal w a security issue outside of NATO.

A pretty enviable track record that we’d be crazy to abandon. Sure there are problems as there are in alliance but let’s not throw the baby out with bath water.


Why do we need NATO when almost all European countries are linked together under the EU?

To formalize an alliance with non-EU countries, one of which is the greatest military power in the world, thereby further strengthening the defense of the EU? Just a thought.



The EU and the US have different goals and objectives, they also handle situations differently, what benefits one quite often doesn’t benefit the other, so why should the EU tie it’s defence to a country which is has significant policy differences to it?
 
VSMUT
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:22 am

A101 wrote:
Armchair generals study tactics while professionals study logistics, the US military is not the greatest military because it has the most guns, tank and fighters. But because it can get supply those weapons system move troops anywhere in the world and keep them there and shooting for longer periods.


Poor comparison. The US needs a much more visible logistics system because they are stuck between 2 oceans, and are constantly waging aggressive wars all over the world. The EU force needs only a fraction of those big impressive (and extremely expensive) systems. You can transport anything from one end of Europe to the other in little over 24 hours by truck, train or ship. Europe has more than enough of those.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:05 pm

How about comparing the Brittish and Germans and during the desert campaign , or the American and Japanese with the early island campaign?
While the victory was through shear quantity of forces, you can argue that the abundance of supplies enable that quantity and keep the forces morale higher as well.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
aumaverick
Posts: 120
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:07 pm

I think a redirection back to the topic is in line from a moderator. Regardless of history, Germany is proposing a joint European aircraft carrier.
What would the mix of aircraft look like in 2030? Would other nations (Belgium, Spain, Italy, etc) also contribute a squadron to the ship?
I'm just here so I won't get fined. - Marshawn Lynch
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4581
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:40 pm

bikerthai wrote:
How about comparing the Brittish and Germans and during the desert campaign , or the American and Japanese with the early island campaign?
While the victory was through shear quantity of forces, you can argue that the abundance of supplies enable that quantity and keep the forces morale higher as well.

bt


And why do you think a comparison with the North Africa campaign is relevant? Are you suggesting that the UK and EU are about to go at it across Libya and Egypt like in 1941/42?

The main threat today is from from Russia and the US. The former requires a military force that can move quickly to the east within own territory (requires trucks and trains which we already have), the latter requires a strong cyber-security force, requiring little in terms of logistics.


aumaverick wrote:
I think a redirection back to the topic is in line from a moderator. Regardless of history, Germany is proposing a joint European aircraft carrier.
What would the mix of aircraft look like in 2030? Would other nations (Belgium, Spain, Italy, etc) also contribute a squadron to the ship?


It seems pretty certain that other nations would contribute at least similarly to what they currently do. A Danish frigate is currently part of the escort for the Charles de Gaulle.
 
aumaverick
Posts: 120
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:02 pm

VSMUT wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
How about comparing the Brittish and Germans and during the desert campaign , or the American and Japanese with the early island campaign?
While the victory was through shear quantity of forces, you can argue that the abundance of supplies enable that quantity and keep the forces morale higher as well.

bt


And why do you think a comparison with the North Africa campaign is relevant? Are you suggesting that the UK and EU are about to go at it across Libya and Egypt like in 1941/42?

The main threat today is from from Russia and the US. The former requires a military force that can move quickly to the east within own territory (requires trucks and trains which we already have), the latter requires a strong cyber-security force, requiring little in terms of logistics.


aumaverick wrote:
I think a redirection back to the topic is in line from a moderator. Regardless of history, Germany is proposing a joint European aircraft carrier.
What would the mix of aircraft look like in 2030? Would other nations (Belgium, Spain, Italy, etc) also contribute a squadron to the ship?


It seems pretty certain that other nations would contribute at least similarly to what they currently do. A Danish frigate is currently part of the escort for the Charles de Gaulle.


A ship escorting another ship is easily integrated into a composite fleet battle group. However, integrating squadrons of disparate types (e.g. Typhoons, Rafales, Lightning IIs, Gripens etc.) on board a joint aircraft carrier poses some serious questions to interoperability and responsibility of the contributing nations. What sort of contributions would the Euro nations be allowed to make to the design? What considerations need to be made regarding the different European air forces and naval aviation for ship-aircraft compatibility? How would one squadron be supplied, supported, and maintained? Would each nation participating provide funds for a join mission, or be billed separately and a la carte?
I'm just here so I won't get fined. - Marshawn Lynch
 
A101
Posts: 2159
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:27 pm

VSMUT wrote:

Poor comparison. The US needs a much more visible logistics system because they are stuck between 2 oceans, and are constantly waging aggressive wars all over the world. The EU force needs only a fraction of those big impressive (and extremely expensive) systems. You can transport anything from one end of Europe to the other in little over 24 hours by truck, train or ship. Europe has more than enough of those.



Then what’s the point of an EU aircraft carrier?

Look at all the countries that use to have an aircraft carrier and who does now, look at the difficulties in funding a carrier capbilty in the case of logistics and supply look at the 2011 where in less than a month NATO euro countries were run short of weapons and the US were going to have to increase its commitment. It highlights the limitations European countries in sustaining even a relatively small military action over an extended period of time.

The Libyan campaign was not a very large campaign. If it runs low of these munitions this early in such a small overall operation, you have to wonder what kind of war they are planning on fighting imagine if it were the Russians if you ran that low in a month against Libya I’d imagine Europe would have a weeks supply at most for a peer on peer war.

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