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bikerthai
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:36 pm

VSMUT wrote:
And why do you think a comparison with the North Africa campaign is relevant?


More relevant as it demonstrate that you win with not only the better equipment, but with more of it and properly supplied. Thus the supply chain.

True, a carrier may not be of use with a European war with Russia, but would be useful in the Balkans, and the re-emergence of ISIS in North Africa and the Sahel.

Then there the potential scenario that Turkey will turn toward Russia and away from NATO. I'm not sure how likely that would be, but if that should come to pass, the EU will need more fleet presence in the Mediterranean.

bt
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bhill
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:02 pm

One ship does not a fleet make....and Command by Committee? These two items need to be figgured out first. Will this fleet fall under NATO Supreme Command?
Carpe Pices
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:19 pm

I have no idea how a carrier enhances German or NATO defense.

Germany just recently committed to operate 4 th gen AC for the next 25-30 years and now they want develop naval capabilities where they have 0 experience.

Baffling.

Germans are rarely first adopters but when they do something normally it is very well thought out.
 
DarkKnight5
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:45 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
DarkKnight5 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Why do we need NATO when almost all European countries are linked together under the EU?

To formalize an alliance with non-EU countries, one of which is the greatest military power in the world, thereby further strengthening the defense of the EU? Just a thought.



The EU and the US have different goals and objectives, they also handle situations differently, what benefits one quite often doesn’t benefit the other, so why should the EU tie it’s defence to a country which is has significant policy differences to it?

Welcome to an alliance, where goals cannot always be 100% aligned, but the benefits outweigh the costs.
 
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par13del
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:09 pm

Well the UK used billions to preserve industrial knowledge with the building of its carriers, initially it was supposed to be a joint venture with France. Brexit ensures that the UK is no longer a trusted partner to assist with any knowledge transfer to Europe, and we can be sure that the French and Germans would perfer their own.
Europe cannot continue to preserve knowledge building American cruise ships, so they need to do more. The building of the carriers will create jobs, preserve knowledge and show the Americans that Europe can hold its own. This will be a project which takes years of planning - while funding and creating jobs - and years of production - while funding an creating jobs - then more years of initial testing - while funding and creating jobs - then ultimate deployment - which will see new jobs created for the young men and women who will sail and operate the carriers.
By the time that happens, additional projects to design and build the a/c which will operate on the carriers will have already been initiated, these will also be massive projects as it will have to include carrier capable helicopters - different from those designed to operate off Frigates and or Corvettes -

So if one looks at the overall picture, politically, the industrial base of Europe will be sound for another 50 years if this project is given the go ahead.
Just a thought....
 
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Amazonski
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:41 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The US has abused NATO by calling on its partners to help fight its pointless wars.

Like 2011 military intervention in Libya?
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:22 pm

par13del wrote:
Well the UK used billions to preserve industrial knowledge with the building of its carriers, initially it was supposed to be a joint venture with France. Brexit ensures that the UK is no longer a trusted partner to assist with any knowledge transfer to Europe, and we can be sure that the French and Germans would perfer their own.
Europe cannot continue to preserve knowledge building American cruise ships, so they need to do more. The building of the carriers will create jobs, preserve knowledge and show the Americans that Europe can hold its own. This will be a project which takes years of planning - while funding and creating jobs - and years of production - while funding an creating jobs - then more years of initial testing - while funding and creating jobs - then ultimate deployment - which will see new jobs created for the young men and women who will sail and operate the carriers.
By the time that happens, additional projects to design and build the a/c which will operate on the carriers will have already been initiated, these will also be massive projects as it will have to include carrier capable helicopters - different from those designed to operate off Frigates and or Corvettes -

So if one looks at the overall picture, politically, the industrial base of Europe will be sound for another 50 years if this project is given the go ahead.
Just a thought....



I Understand that the intangibles you mentioned are important. But this is a super expensive project that Has a very high likelihood of failure.

And unless I’m missing something does nothing to advance German defense needs.
 
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par13del
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:43 pm

Oh, so you think in today's world all military projects exist to advance defense needs?
If that were the case I would have to wonder why it would take years to get actual units in the hands of the war fighter because production is based on what can be afforded versus the defense needs.
If we revisit the German Frigate / Destroyer (based on size) one would have to ask how the war fighter was able to get such a faulty unit, is it your believe that the German Navy was not deeply involved in the design, they only got involved when it was finished and they were told to test?
 
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par13del
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:49 pm

Neglected to add, how does Germany having Frigates that will be deployed in a "Flag Waving" manner assist in German Defense needs?
By Flag Waving I mean going on long deployments to foreign countries to Show the Flag, does it mean that if one of those countries wishes, Germany will sign mutual defense treaties?
 
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Amazonski
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:00 pm

Planeflyer wrote:

And unless I’m missing something does nothing to advance German defense needs.

The humongous EU economy, should be able to project power and to enforce fair game. China doesn't build this huge fleet to attack someone, or to defend against someone specific. It builds it to protect their economic grow. What EU needs is planet that is relatively safe place, but does very little to enforce it. Or when it tries, like in Libya, EU has to ask US for help, to destroy the Dictator's air defenses.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:01 pm

par13del wrote:
Oh, so you think in today's world all military projects exist to advance defense needs?
If that were the case I would have to wonder why it would take years to get actual units in the hands of the war fighter because production is based on what can be afforded versus the defense needs.
If we revisit the German Frigate / Destroyer (based on size) one would have to ask how the war fighter was able to get such a faulty unit, is it your believe that the German Navy was not deeply involved in the design, they only got involved when it was finished and they were told to test?


I have no idea about the German frigate program but I think we can all agree that few German naval programs have born fruit.

For Germany the navy has almost never had strategic importance and so the proportion of building a carrier just seems wacko.
 
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par13del
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:54 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
For Germany the navy has almost never had strategic importance and so the proportion of building a carrier just seems wacko.

In that case then if the politicians are supporting the project I think we can agree it is for political, economic or industrial reasons and nothing to do with defense of the nation.
 
johns624
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:58 pm

Russia couldn't invade "Western Europe" but they sure could, one by one, annex the Baltic republics to "protect" Russian nationals living there. That would put some of the eastern European countries on notice and soon Russia could be pulling the strings behind the curtain. Look at what they've done in Ukraine, Georgia and Belarus.
The question is, if NATO is dissolved and the US is out of the picture, which country is going to step up and be the new European leader? The Brits are out, the French maintain an independent foreign policy and Germany has let their military deteriorate badly. Who does that leave?
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:39 am

johns624 wrote:
Russia couldn't invade "Western Europe" but they sure could, one by one, annex the Baltic republics to "protect" Russian nationals living there. That would put some of the eastern European countries on notice and soon Russia could be pulling the strings behind the curtain. Look at what they've done in Ukraine, Georgia and Belarus.
The question is, if NATO is dissolved and the US is out of the picture, which country is going to step up and be the new European leader? The Brits are out, the French maintain an independent foreign policy and Germany has let their military deteriorate badly. Who does that leave?


As accurately as your post describes what a Grimm post NATO future would like it would be much worse.

If any one or even two countries stepped up to fill the role now played by the USA they would become highly distrusted by the smaller countries.

Many fear the US has too much power but the USA’s power is no physical threat to Europe ( the Atlantic part of the alliance is very critical).

Europe has been there and done this w disastrous results many times in the past.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:36 pm

johns624 wrote:
annex the Baltic republics to "protect" Russian nationals living there.


Is there a strategic reason to annex the Baltic States? Crimea has strategic value, enough to enter Ukraine And that has brought on much headache. With the melting of the polar ice and increase navigation in the Artic, Russia should have more flexibility up there without needing to drain more resources to support more civil wars.


bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:58 pm

bikerthai wrote:
johns624 wrote:
annex the Baltic republics to "protect" Russian nationals living there.


Is there a strategic reason to annex the Baltic States? Crimea has strategic value, enough to enter Ukraine And that has brought on much headache. With the melting of the polar ice and increase navigation in the Artic, Russia should have more flexibility up there without needing to drain more resources to support more civil wars.


bt


Not now but as soon as nato disbands Central Europe at least triples arms spending and troop levels.

In the West there will be hopeful speeches but eventually defense spending will rise significantly so much so that the smaller countries will feel threatened but not so much that bad actors will be nearly as deterred as they are now.

With the US as a member most of the punching power is on the right side of the Atlantic. Bad actors know that overwhelming force is Avago it it is not so close that the powder keg dynamic begins.

As much as the Russians hope nato disbands even they are worse off w/o NATO.
 
johns624
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:47 pm

bikerthai wrote:

Is there a strategic reason to annex the Baltic States?
bt
Check out a map. The Kaliningrad enclave is Russia's main Baltic naval base and is separated from the rest of Russia by the Baltic republics. That's reason (excuse) enough if they want it to be.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:39 pm

And the map also shows the choke point is Denmark. That does not change even if Russia controls the Baltic States.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
johns624
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:02 am

bikerthai wrote:
And the map also shows the choke point is Denmark. That does not change even if Russia controls the Baltic States.

bt
The Baltic Fleet's job is to control the Baltic. The Northern Fleet is for the Atlantic. Controlling the Baltic republics lets them control more coastline and more pressure on Poland. Also, not all things that countries do are rational. Some things are driven by pride and nationalism.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:14 pm

johns624 wrote:
Also, not all things that countries do are rational. Some things are driven by pride and nationalism.

How true. :evil:
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Catfry
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:02 pm

Regarding sharing of assets across borders, there exists an agreement regarding the logistics support ship HNLMS Karel Doorman, the largest ship in the Dutch navy. I suggest that this might be a prototype on a future asset sharing agreement in europe.

https://navaltoday.com/2016/02/05/germa ... -ship-loi/
the German Navy will now, in coordination with their Dutch couterparts, be able to use the biggest ship in the Dutch Navy, the HNLMS Karel Dorman (A833). This also means a closer cooperation between German and Dutch marines.


Does anybody have any information about how this agreement has worked out in praxis?
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:27 am

Planeflyer wrote:
As someone brilliantly stated those that don’t understand history are doomed to repeat it.

Especially when you leave out relevant information: The US uparmed/provisioned various parties in the region to have this come to a nice boil.

With a bit of backinfo "duh simple" historic causalities turn 180° around.
( Cuba crisis started with Jupiter missile sites in Italy and Turkey able to reach Moscow, Afghan conflict started with US uparming neolitihic islamists in the region.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:08 am

In the end the whole proposal is trolling by the Germans. Other countries ask Germany to spent more money on defence for NATO, but they actually want Germany to shoulder more military responsibility outside NATO and help in the various conflicts around the globe. And this time Germany countered them by suggesting to also add more force and money to NATO but to NATO/EU usage only, which neither of the critics really want.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:52 am

Catfry wrote:
Regarding sharing of assets across borders, there exists an agreement regarding the logistics support ship HNLMS Karel Doorman, the largest ship in the Dutch navy. I suggest that this might be a prototype on a future asset sharing agreement in europe.

https://navaltoday.com/2016/02/05/germa ... -ship-loi/
the German Navy will now, in coordination with their Dutch couterparts, be able to use the biggest ship in the Dutch Navy, the HNLMS Karel Dorman (A833). This also means a closer cooperation between German and Dutch marines.


Does anybody have any information about how this agreement has worked out in praxis?

The Germans and the Dutch Armies have a joint Corps, with the Dutch actually being part of one of the Corps' tank battalions, crewing German Leopard 2 tanks, with the entire unit effectively under German command.

Conversely, the German Seebataillon is effectively under Dutch command, but the Germans are very much the senior partner in their defence cooperation agreement.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:41 am

Under such a command, what language is used? English?

bt
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Catfry
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:06 pm

^^Yes. I have seen an article saying integration has worked quite well, contrasting with a french-german EU battalion with less success; The germans do not speak French and the French do not speak English.

I still wonder how the Karel Doorman agreement works. It does not seem to be quite the same as the see battalion since that one is under clear dutch command, but with German veto. supposedly both governments have usage rights, but how does it work in practice?
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:28 pm

Catfry wrote:
The gGermans do not speak French and the French do not speak English.

24% of German pupils have been taught French. 95% English
..
15% of French pupils learn German ( down from 50% 40years back.)
( how many French have "functional" English skills?
quite interesting:
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistic ... statistics
Murphy is an optimist
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:12 pm

WIederling wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
As someone brilliantly stated those that don’t understand history are doomed to repeat it.

Especially when you leave out relevant information: The US uparmed/provisioned various parties in the region to have this come to a nice boil.

With a bit of backinfo "duh simple" historic causalities turn 180° around.
( Cuba crisis started with Jupiter missile sites in Italy and Turkey able to reach Moscow, Afghan conflict started with US uparming neolitihic islamists in the region.)


As is so typical of your posts, irrelevant.

We are speaking of Europe where the US track record is stellar.

The EU is not possible w/o NATO.
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:32 am

Planeflyer wrote:
We are speaking of Europe where the US track record is stellar.

ROFLMAO.
in respect to which objectives?
Murphy is an optimist
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:04 am

WIederling wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
We are speaking of Europe where the US track record is stellar.

ROFLMAO.
in respect to which objectives?


Security and peace which Europeans have never experienced prior to the formation of NATO.

The EU will cease to exist within 20-40 years if NATO is disbanded.
 
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keesje
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:53 am

VSMUT wrote:
hmmwv wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
The DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier. It's an updated Charles de Gaulle with conventional powerplant. Flight deck and aircraft complement is pretty much the same size as the Queen Elizabeth class (around 40 aircraft), but displacement is about 20.000 tons smaller. Pretty close to the 2 new Indian carriers and the US America class.


It seems to me that CVF and later QE class doesn't have the most efficient use of space, the ship is roughly the same size as a Forrestal class carrier, with half the aircraft capacity, half the number of elevators, and STOVL-only. The only thing QE has more is the number of islands. CdG on the other hand is a pretty efficient design with comparable air wing size, nuclear powered, and CATOBAR. Obvious there are more factors than those specs, like creature comfort, endurance, damage control, C4ISR, etc.


The Queen Elizabeth class has been designed as part conventional aircraft carrier, part assault ship/LHA. I think a lot of space is used/wasted on transporting ground forces and their equipment.


I think the assault capability suits the requirement. Think of third world emergencies, disasters, political unrest. No wasted space at all. A fleet of 5-6 ships would be required if we include training, maintenance, upgrades etc. over the years. Nucleair power improves flexibility.

I think it would be most logical to define a base platform for the future and integrate current national assetts meanwhile, harmonizing financing, manning, and interoperability with a similar European MPA force and flexible army forces.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
art
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:38 am

Why not use the cancelled French PA2 design? This was based on the British QE design. France agreed to pay £100 million for access to the QE design (and according to Wiki) actually made £55 million in payments before cancellation. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ai ... arrier_PA2

Using an existing design should cut costs, I am sure. As the QE is built in modules it would be relatively easy to split work on constructing the vessel, would it not?
 
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par13del
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:43 am

Its a design that the UK put into play, why would the French and Germans use it when they can design their own, this project is too important to cut corners and go cheap.
 
art
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:26 pm

par13del wrote:
Its a design that the UK put into play, why would the French and Germans use it when they can design their own, this project is too important to cut corners and go cheap.


Leaving politics out, yes the French and Germans could create a new design but would it be significantly better than the QE design? Would it even be as good? They could spend hundreds of millions of euros extra on designing a carrier but still not improve on the QE design. What is the point financially or in terms of performance of designing your own wheel when a well designed wheel is already available?

Of course if politics enters the process common sense ceases to feature in decision making.
 
A101
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:29 pm

par13del wrote:
Its a design that the UK put into play, why would the French and Germans use it when they can design their own, this project is too important to cut corners and go cheap.


Go cheap?

The French didn’t go ahead because of budgetary issues not that they didn’t want a replacement, The PA2 based on the QE platform was going to be conventionally powered, also I think there might have been internal divisions and a power struggle had taken place whether it should be nuclear or conventionally powered as it might look to be a backward step in French prestige eyes, hence the new study

While the FS Charles de Gaulle is not a bad ship overall it has had its fair share of problems in reliability, but what I believe is the MN main problem it only has one ship, when tasking is actually demanding a pair. Can France afford 2x nuclear powered aircraft carriers, HMS are conventionally powered due not only the cost of building but also the cost when paying off at the end of service nuc reactors aren’t cheap to decommission

France had budgeted three billion euro and studied a second aircraft carrier from 2008-2013. The project was canceled in 2013


https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/fr ... ect-01621/
 
VSMUT
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:13 pm

keesje wrote:
I think the assault capability suits the requirement. Think of third world emergencies, disasters, political unrest. No wasted space at all. A fleet of 5-6 ships would be required if we include training, maintenance, upgrades etc. over the years. Nucleair power improves flexibility.

I think it would be most logical to define a base platform for the future and integrate current national assetts meanwhile, harmonizing financing, manning, and interoperability with a similar European MPA force and flexible army forces.


True, but the coming EU force will already have at its disposal (not including the UK):
1 conventional carrier
3 VSTOL carriers
6 helicopter carriers (LHD/LPD)
5 LPDs (ala the Galicia and Karel Doorman classes)
2 Absalons
10 PPAs joining the Italian navy
A plethora of newer frigates optimised to undertake light land assault roles.
A pretty big number of LSTs, support and transport ships.

There are enough assault ships to cover third world emergencies, disasters, political unrest etc. There is only 1 proper carrier to cover them.

Nuclear power is prohibitively expensive, as was found on the Charles de Gaulle. The latest French design studies since PA2 have been conventional for a reason.


art wrote:
par13del wrote:
Its a design that the UK put into play, why would the French and Germans use it when they can design their own, this project is too important to cut corners and go cheap.


Leaving politics out, yes the French and Germans could create a new design but would it be significantly better than the QE design? Would it even be as good? They could spend hundreds of millions of euros extra on designing a carrier but still not improve on the QE design. What is the point financially or in terms of performance of designing your own wheel when a well designed wheel is already available?

Of course if politics enters the process common sense ceases to feature in decision making.


QE/PA2 is already an ageing design, it was first unveiled in an early form 20 years ago. It would likely require significant work to bring it up to date, work that DCNS has already done on its new design.
It isn't as if France doesn't know how to build a carrier either. Clemenceau and Foch were both very successful designs, and despite all the shortcomings claimed by certain shills, Charles de Gaulle has had one of the most active combat careers of any aircraft carrier since WWII. In any case, they have far more experience with conventional carriers than the British, who didn't design one between WWII and the QE class, and even then settled on a VSTOL solution.

And then the political issues as well. They are deliberately avoiding the US fighter jet because foreign powers can't be trusted, why then rely on a foreign power for an entire aircraft carrier?


Planeflyer wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
We are speaking of Europe where the US track record is stellar.

ROFLMAO.
in respect to which objectives?


Security and peace which Europeans have never experienced prior to the formation of NATO.

The EU will cease to exist within 20-40 years if NATO is disbanded.


Ridiculous. The EU is the primary factor in establishing peace in Europe since WWII, not NATO.

Peace was the very purpose of the original ancestors of the EU. France, Italy and Germany went from fighting each other every few years to becoming close trading partners between whom war would be impossible. The EU stopped the violence in Ireland. Since former Yugoslav countries have begun negotiating memberships or joining up, even they became peaceful.

NATO brought us to the brink of nuclear armageddon several times during the cold war, provoked Russia into a new cold war, sent waves of refugees and terrorists our way etc. There is nothing peaceful about NATO.
 
bobinthecar
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:37 pm

Ridiculous. The EU is the primary factor in establishing peace in Europe since WWII, not NATO.


On what planet are you referring?
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:33 pm

VSMUT wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think the assault capability suits the requirement. Think of third world emergencies, disasters, political unrest. No wasted space at all. A fleet of 5-6 ships would be required if we include training, maintenance, upgrades etc. over the years. Nucleair power improves flexibility.

I think it would be most logical to define a base platform for the future and integrate current national assetts meanwhile, harmonizing financing, manning, and interoperability with a similar European MPA force and flexible army forces.


True, but the coming EU force will already have at its disposal (not including the UK):
1 conventional carrier
3 VSTOL carriers
6 helicopter carriers (LHD/LPD)
5 LPDs (ala the Galicia and Karel Doorman classes)
2 Absalons
10 PPAs joining the Italian navy
A plethora of newer frigates optimised to undertake light land assault roles.
A pretty big number of LSTs, support and transport ships.

There are enough assault ships to cover third world emergencies, disasters, political unrest etc. There is only 1 proper carrier to cover them.

Nuclear power is prohibitively expensive, as was found on the Charles de Gaulle. The latest French design studies since PA2 have been conventional for a reason.


art wrote:
par13del wrote:
Its a design that the UK put into play, why would the French and Germans use it when they can design their own, this project is too important to cut corners and go cheap.


Leaving politics out, yes the French and Germans could create a new design but would it be significantly better than the QE design? Would it even be as good? They could spend hundreds of millions of euros extra on designing a carrier but still not improve on the QE design. What is the point financially or in terms of performance of designing your own wheel when a well designed wheel is already available?

Of course if politics enters the process common sense ceases to feature in decision making.


QE/PA2 is already an ageing design, it was first unveiled in an early form 20 years ago. It would likely require significant work to bring it up to date, work that DCNS has already done on its new design.
It isn't as if France doesn't know how to build a carrier either. Clemenceau and Foch were both very successful designs, and despite all the shortcomings claimed by certain shills, Charles de Gaulle has had one of the most active combat careers of any aircraft carrier since WWII. In any case, they have far more experience with conventional carriers than the British, who didn't design one between WWII and the QE class, and even then settled on a VSTOL solution.

And then the political issues as well. They are deliberately avoiding the US fighter jet because foreign powers can't be trusted, why then rely on a foreign power for an entire aircraft carrier?


Planeflyer wrote:
WIederling wrote:
ROFLMAO.
in respect to which objectives?


Security and peace which Europeans have never experienced prior to the formation of NATO.

The EU will cease to exist within 20-40 years if NATO is disbanded.


Ridiculous. The EU is the primary factor in establishing peace in Europe since WWII, not NATO.

Peace was the very purpose of the original ancestors of the EU. France, Italy and Germany went from fighting each other every few years to becoming close trading partners between whom war would be impossible. The EU stopped the violence in Ireland. Since former Yugoslav countries have begun negotiating memberships or joining up, even they became peaceful.

NATO brought us to the brink of nuclear armageddon several times during the cold war, provoked Russia into a new cold war, sent waves of refugees and terrorists our way etc. There is nothing peaceful about nato.

We agree on one issue; nato is not a peaceful organization it is s security organization. The history of peace in Europe can be summed in one word; short.

Between 1000 and 1945 do you know how many wars have been fought in Europe?

How many since?

Yugoslavia. Read below to understand what security in Europe would like wo nato.

As valuable as the EU is it will not long survive wo the common defense nato provides.

https://www.politics.co.uk/reference/po ... nts-politi

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/nato

https://blogactiv.eu/blog/2010/05/14/th ... oslavia-2/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_in ... erzegovina
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2696
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:01 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Yugoslavia. Read below to understand what security in Europe would like wo nato.

As valuable as the EU is it will not long survive wo the common defense nato provides.


Yugoslavia is the example of Europe without the EU, nothing to do with NATO.
 
johns624
Posts: 2082
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:11 pm

Who made the old Yugoslavia peaceful? NATO...end of discussion.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8357
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:36 am

johns624 wrote:
Who made the old Yugoslavia peaceful? NATO...end of discussion.


NATO made a mess of it. Yugoslavia was handle with the intention to go to war at all cost.
( for one to show the SU followup that they were deemed to be no longer relevant )
Murphy is an optimist
 
johns624
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:05 am

WIederling wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Who made the old Yugoslavia peaceful? NATO...end of discussion.


NATO made a mess of it. Yugoslavia was handle with the intention to go to war at all cost.
( for one to show the SU followup that they were deemed to be no longer relevant )
Yeah, you're right. NATO forced those peaceful Serbians into going to war and committing all the atrocities they did. Silly me, looking at the history of the Balkans to think any differently.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1390
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:24 am

VSMUT wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
Yugoslavia. Read below to understand what security in Europe would like wo nato.

As valuable as the EU is it will not long survive wo the common defense nato provides.


Yugoslavia is the example of Europe without the EU, nothing to do with NATO.


I don’t understand. In a previous post you argued that the EU not NATO was responsible for the security Europeans have enjoyed since 1945.

Now you say that the disaster in the Balkans Europe wo the EU.

If the predecessors of the EU did as well as you claim how was they completely botched the one security related task that they handled on their own?

A rhetorical question of course as the link below displays:


https://www.cvce.eu/en/education/unit-c ... 6771dd0e43
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2696
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:41 am

Planeflyer wrote:
I don’t understand. In a previous post you argued that the EU not NATO was responsible for the security Europeans have enjoyed since 1945.


Obviously because the Balkans weren't EU members (or prospective ones) at the time. No need to be pigheaded about it. Or will you also blame NATO for the civil wars in Liberia and Sierra Leone? They border up with the Atlantic after all. Come to think about it, Ireland is well within the area of responsibility of your beloved NATO. You really did a lot to stop the violence there, didn't you?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:28 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
I don’t understand. In a previous post you argued that the EU not NATO was responsible for the security Europeans have enjoyed since 1945.


Obviously because the Balkans weren't EU members (or prospective ones) at the time. No need to be pigheaded about it. Or will you also blame NATO for the civil wars in Liberia and Sierra Leone? They border up with the Atlantic after all. Come to think about it, Ireland is well within the area of responsibility of your beloved NATO. You really did a lot to stop the violence there, didn't you?


Not all was rosy. There was that conflict between Turkey and Greece over Cypress. But true, the recent conflicts, the Balkans, Ukraine and Georgia are all associated with former Soviet Block countries, not NATO or the EU.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:50 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
the vast majority of US military power is not based in Europe so is not a threat to the rest of the alliance or for that matter Russia.

Planeflyer wrote:
If nato disbands than right away all the European countries need to double or even triple standing militaries.

If the US military presence in Europe is as unimportant from a military point of view, then why would the EU countries have to double their existing forces to replace that token US presence? Or are you trying to say that European peace is only possible under US hegemony, and that for example present-day France, Germany and Poland would be at war without it?

Planeflyer wrote:
Oh and the carrier plan adds nothing to NATO.

This sounds like you generally disapprove of (new) carriers. NATO is planning to have approximately 14 carriers in service (11 US, 2 British, 1 French), plus a similar number of assault ships / helicopter carriers. Adding another full carrier would add significantly to the fleets power, especially in the Atlantic, Meditteranean and neighbouring seas. This could allow the US to avoid the cost of maintaing a 12-strong CV fleet and focus more on the pacific theatre.
Regarding the air wing: If this is an actual multinational carrier, part of the strike force could come from current F-35 users and might contain the F-35B/C. Germany has no carrier capable aircraft anyway. Eventually, FCAS/Tempest/PCA or one of those concept studies would likely find their way on carriers too. In the meantime, Rafales could be used for IOC. This carrier won't be afloat before ~2030 anyway.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:41 pm

par13del wrote:
Its a design that the UK put into play, why would the French and Germans use it when they can design their own, this project is too important to cut corners and go cheap.


Thales is part of the Aircraft Carrier Alliance. It was the Thales design which won the Royal Navy Future Aircraft Carrier project. Thales is a French company. The French paid for the PA2 version of CVF to be designed. You do the math.
 
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Amazonski
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:55 pm

Another point is, that based on the long US experience, carriers create a very capable aviators. An elite of carefully selected and well trained pilots, that show remarkable results during military operations.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:04 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
par13del wrote:
Its a design that the UK put into play, why would the French and Germans use it when they can design their own, this project is too important to cut corners and go cheap.


Thales is part of the Aircraft Carrier Alliance. It was the Thales design which won the Royal Navy Future Aircraft Carrier project. Thales is a French company. The French paid for the PA2 version of CVF to be designed. You do the math.

It is good to get this back to a discussion on the vessel itself and potential aircraft and leave the political rubbish that is not contributing to the discussion.

We have established then that
- EU members probably have enough support vessels available to maintain a carrier presence somewhere else in the world for at least a short period of time.
- The EU probably doesn’t need the carrier to come with an amphibious capability as there are additional ships in the pipeline that will provide enough sealift for this mission.
- It is likely that the vessel will be conventional powered. With France looking at conventional options for their next vessel and Germany ending their nuclear power industry a conventionally powered vessel seems likely.
- The FCAS is planned to have a carrier capable version and given the timeline to build a carrier if this project went forward it would likely be available at a similar time to FCAS.

Things we don’t yet know,
- Seems like CATOBAR would be the preferred option especially if FCAS is used, would the vessel pursue an EMALS CAT system?
- How will the vessel be crewed, multi-national, French dominated given their carrier experience or perhaps few French navy personal given they will be manning their own vessel?
- Where will the vessel undertake final assembly? With modern block design it could be built all over Europe and assembled in one location.
- Who will pay for this? Just Germany or would all EU members be required to contribute?
- How long will this capability take to stand up? It would only be the second CATOBAR vessel in Europe and with CdG down for extended periods of time maintaining proficency and training enough personnel may be difficult.
- Will the French piggyback on this design and build a second unit for themselves?

Amazonski wrote:
Another point is, that based on the long US experience, carriers create a very capable aviators. An elite of carefully selected and well trained pilots, that show remarkable results during military operations.

General feeling within the fighter avitaion community is the opposite. US naval aviators have been very focused on landing on the boat sometimes to the detriment of their combat skills. The newer automated landing systems have been a big assistance to USN fast jet aviation in lowering focus on landing on the boat and improving overall combat performance.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1390
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Thu May 02, 2019 8:20 am

Ozair wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
par13del wrote:
Its a design that the UK put into play, why would the French and Germans use it when they can design their own, this project is too important to cut corners and go cheap.


Thales is part of the Aircraft Carrier Alliance. It was the Thales design which won the Royal Navy Future Aircraft Carrier project. Thales is a French company. The French paid for the PA2 version of CVF to be designed. You do the math.

It is good to get this back to a discussion on the vessel itself and potential aircraft and leave the political rubbish that is not contributing to the discussion.

We have established then that
- EU members probably have enough support vessels available to maintain a carrier presence somewhere else in the world for at least a short period of time.
- The EU probably doesn’t need the carrier to come with an amphibious capability as there are additional ships in the pipeline that will provide enough sealift for this mission.
- It is likely that the vessel will be conventional powered. With France looking at conventional options for their next vessel and Germany ending their nuclear power industry a conventionally powered vessel seems likely.
- The FCAS is planned to have a carrier capable version and given the timeline to build a carrier if this project went forward it would likely be available at a similar time to FCAS.

Things we don’t yet know,
- Seems like CATOBAR would be the preferred option especially if FCAS is used, would the vessel pursue an EMALS CAT system?
- How will the vessel be crewed, multi-national, French dominated given their carrier experience or perhaps few French navy personal given they will be manning their own vessel?
- Where will the vessel undertake final assembly? With modern block design it could be built all over Europe and assembled in one location.
- Who will pay for this? Just Germany or would all EU members be required to contribute?
- How long will this capability take to stand up? It would only be the second CATOBAR vessel in Europe and with CdG down for extended periods of time maintaining proficency and training enough personnel may be difficult.
- Will the French piggyback on this design and build a second unit for themselves?

Amazonski wrote:
Another point is, that based on the long US experience, carriers create a very capable aviators. An elite of carefully selected and well trained pilots, that show remarkable results during military operations.

General feeling within the fighter avitaion community is the opposite. US naval aviators have been very focused on landing on the boat sometimes to the detriment of their combat skills. The newer automated landing systems have been a big assistance to USN fast jet aviation in lowering focus on landing on the boat and improving overall combat performance.


What you call political rubbish is intact the basic strategic questions for this project?

Here are just a few questions that need to be answered.

How does a carrier meet German defense needs?

How does it address major deficiencies now rampant across existing forces?

What are the chances Germany can successfully manage a carrier force given the lack of any experience?

Where will the carrier be based if German ports come under middle attack( one would think if you are building a carrier you plan to deal w near peer threats)?

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