frmrCapCadet
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:21 pm

One would hope that the US reaction to this would not be via tweets and threats. The US needs to do what the defense department thinks necessary, and with maximum diplomacy and tact. And probably some sweeteners on the part of the US.
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Pavlakakos
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:45 pm

alberchico wrote:
From what I've read, the red line that Turkey can't cross is switching on the radar and begin integrating them into the defense network. That isn't expected to happen until October. So there is still time for a diplomatic solution. It will be interesting if Trump defies our allies, the Defense Dept, and many members of his own party in offering the Turks a way out of this.


Bloomberg reports some sanctions have been prepared, but they'll be announced by the end of next week.
July 15 is the anniversary of the last coup attempt and they feel that giving it some days would prevent symbolic connections.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-13/trump-aides-pick-sanctions-to-punish-turkey-for-russian-missiles
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:24 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
An article from the DOD. It notes that all F-35 partners and all countries in NATO are aligned that when the S-400 system arrives in Turkey, they will be dropped from the F-35 program.

https://www.defense.gov/explore/story/A ... cial-says/


Earlier, DOD sent a very formal letter on June 6th spelling out the timetable. Turkey was disinvited to several F-35 participant meetings in June, their pilots and mechanics were sent home almost immediately after the letter, etc. The Warzone article lists the actions out pretty clearly.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... 35-program

Basically, the actions are in place. The DOD can just sit back and assess after 7/31/19 if Turkey has done anything to mitigate the issue.
 
Ozair
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:12 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
One would hope that the US reaction to this would not be via tweets and threats. The US needs to do what the defense department thinks necessary, and with maximum diplomacy and tact. And probably some sweeteners on the part of the US.

The US DoD has been very clear and very diplomatic throughout this process. Esper has spoken with his Turkish counterpart multiple times and meetings will continue, primarily around Syrian safe zones but clearly S-400 will come up, over the next couple of weeks.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:04 am

Why don't the Russians fear, that the secrets of the S400 are falling in NATO's hand? Using Turkeys S400, NATO could thoroughly develop and train tactics and flight profiles to penetrate S400 protected airspace. Even using 4G aircraft, NATO would be able to find the weakest spot of the system. I am not 100% sure, why this purchase would reveal more secrets about the F-35 to the Russians than S400 secrets to the NATO itself.
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IWMBH
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:59 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
Why don't the Russians fear, that the secrets of the S400 are falling in NATO's hand? Using Turkeys S400, NATO could thoroughly develop and train tactics and flight profiles to penetrate S400 protected airspace. Even using 4G aircraft, NATO would be able to find the weakest spot of the system. I am not 100% sure, why this purchase would reveal more secrets about the F-35 to the Russians than S400 secrets to the NATO itself.


NATO could probably use the S400 of Turkey to do research on it defences, but Russia could also use the S400 to find out the radar signature etc. of the F-35. But with the importance the F-35, it secrets falling in the hands of the Russians would be a much bigger blow to the US than vice versa.
 
Spar
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:45 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
Why don't the Russians fear, that the secrets of the S400 are falling in NATO's hand?

Because there isn't much useful information to be learned from a hands on experience with the S-400 unless there is an unknown glaring deficiency somewhere in the system, which must not exist.

Their are no surprises to be found in the missile, the missile's performance is known as is the state of Russian technology to develop it; Russian missile technology is comparable to American technology in that area.

We know where the Russians are as far as semiconductor technology so there is little chance that there are any surprises in the radar / computer hardware: we know what to expect there. Some of the software routines might be interesting; however, the Russians aren't providing access to the coding.

That leaves only the possibility of examining the detailed and exact performance of the radar system in operation, which would only be likely to achieve marginally useful information in any event, and which could be negated completely by upgrades or possible differences between the Turk systems and the systems shipped to the Russian army.
 
tu204
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:30 pm

Now I am wondering how much information Turkey has on the workings of the F-35 and what exactly would stop them from handing it over to Russia as a slap in the face to the U.S. in retaliation.
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mxaxai
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:23 pm

tu204 wrote:
Now I am wondering how much information Turkey has on the workings of the F-35 and what exactly would stop them from handing it over to Russia as a slap in the face to the U.S. in retaliation.

Not much, most likely. Of course they have (some) assembly plans and probably some knowledge of structures, materials and whatnot. But the interesting part is the radar signature and there is no way that this information left the US. I also highly doubt that Turkey has access to the source code, or any of its documentation, which would reveal how the sensor fusion works (and how to hide things from it).
 
Ozair
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:34 pm

As expected Trump has stated the US will not be selling F-35s to Turkey. He did show sympathy for Turkey and blamed most of the issue on the Obama Administration for not approving the Patriot sale but it is clear that Trump is following the US DoD and Congress on this issue.

U.S. will not sell F-35 jets to Turkey - Trump

U.S. President Donald Trump said the U.S. had been placed in a “very tough situation” but the country will not sell F-35 jets to Turkey in his first mention of the matter since delivery for the Russian S-400 defence systems to Turkey started on July 12.

During the cabinet meeting on Tuesday, President Trump said the U.S. will not sell Turkey the F-35 advanced stealth fighter jets. "It is a very tough situation that they're in. And it is a very tough situation that we've been placed in the United States," said Trump: “We'll see what happens, but it's not really fair.”

Trump mentioned the refusal of Turkey’s request to buy the U.S.-made Patriot missile systems during Barack Obama’s term in the White House, and said Turkey was “forced to buy” the S-400 system.

...

https://ahvalnews.com/us-turkey/us-will ... rkey-trump
 
wingman
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:32 pm

I'm surprised Trump couldn't make a deal with Erdogan after 2 1/2 years in office. I wonder what happened, is it really all Obama's fault?
 
Ozair
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:22 am

wingman wrote:
I'm surprised Trump couldn't make a deal with Erdogan after 2 1/2 years in office. I wonder what happened, is it really all Obama's fault?

No one is giving Turkey what it actually wants, technology transfer of long range SAMs to allow it to develop, domestically acquire and then market their own versions for export. Trump really isn’t part of this issue any more than Obama was.

The issue is the Turkish economy will likely suffer as a result of losing the F-35 industrial contracts. Turkish defence exports, while increasing yearly, largely don’t compare to the high technology industrial input that was coming from the F-35 program. While Turkish defence exports are planned to significantly increase over the next five to ten years issues with the US/NATO may also limit the potential for those exports to rise as much as expected.
 
trex8
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:00 am

Duh fake news by Trump again.
Obama admin never refused Patriots, Turks initially selected Chinese FH2000 over Patriot and Euro SAMP/T and S300 (which incidentally was far more expensive than the US or Euro proposal!!), then when US/Nato kicked up fuss about Chinese selection, they decided to try develop locally, that didnt get anywhere then S400 came up after Syria intervention by Russians and is now somehow cheaper than S300 (though no one outside Ankara government seems to know exactly how many batteries of S400s are in the present deal).
http://www.allazimuth.com/2018/12/23/ma ... -go-round/


2009 Obama notification to congress 7.8 billion
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/t ... d-missiles

2018 Trump notification to congress- smaller deal 3.5 billion -OMG its not as juuge and biggly as the Kenyan guy did!!!
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/t ... -equipment
 
Elshad
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:54 pm

Turkey formally kicked out: https://twitter.com/MarcusReports/statu ... 4175015942

Millions of dollars of contributions from Turkey wasted since 2002 because lunatic Erdoğan wants to score some anti-American points.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:20 pm

Elshad wrote:
Turkey formally kicked out: https://twitter.com/MarcusReports/statu ... 4175015942

Millions of dollars of contributions from Turkey wasted since 2002 because lunatic Erdoğan wants to score some anti-American points.


It appears done, possibly DOD can be nice and let Turkey continue parts production for a few years to maintain continuity. If they play hardball Turkey doesn't get any of the $1B back from their initial partner investment.

The important thing is no further F-35 parts, planes, or information goes to Turkey from this point forward.
 
olle
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:56 am

It they thrown out Turkey can probably demand USA to pay it back.

If Trump play to hard game could this mean an end to Turkey in Nato?

Consider the situation of Nato right now it seems like we soon might have the perfect storm.
 
Ozair
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:35 pm

olle wrote:
It they thrown out Turkey can probably demand USA to pay it back.

If Trump play to hard game could this mean an end to Turkey in Nato?

Consider the situation of Nato right now it seems like we soon might have the perfect storm.

They can demand but Turkey won't get any SDD money back. They have had more value in industrial work than they paid in program participation. Payment for the aircraft not delivered would be fair and I expect that may happen but we likely won't hear about it.
 
wingman
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:04 pm

Knowing Erdogan's penchant for very hard ball tactics my guess he's brewing up an announcement kicking the US out of Incirlik with hints of deeper military cooperation with Russia. US announces new massive base deal with a fully recognized "Kurdistan" just across the southern border and then the real shit show begins. I think at that point Erdogan has limited shelf life and the military/industrial/banking complex takes a more forceful and organized shot on goal. It's either he goes or Turkey just embraces totes cray cray Islamic dictatorship.
 
YIMBY
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:51 am

Spar wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
Spar wrote:

If we allowed him to have those two systems together we would have to assume that the Russians would be fine tuning the target recognition software specifically for the F-35 thereby diminishing the F-35's stealthiness when flown against S-400 systems.

Our hands are tied.


Russia has S-400's and all kind of other radar and non-radar detection systems in Kaliningrad and Leningrad military districts and surveillance, reconnaissance and observation planes flying regularly in the Baltic sea, as well as ships with whatever equipment. Would that prevent US from selling or positioning state-of-art F-35's to Poland, Finland or Baltic states?
When those nations fly F-35s in proximity to Russian radar they carry radar reflectors which negate the stealth aspect of the plane.


https://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-lu ... nia-2017-5


Thanks for the link. So it is all to trust that the NATO members like Turkey or non-NATO countries like Finland will always have the reflectors installed, unless authorized to remove them in the war?

I tend to believe that Turkey (or someone in Turkish air force) would be able to get relevant information of F-35 and sell that to Russia equally well without S-400's. Though none of the foreign countries will get the most state-of-the art F-35, neither the most state-of-the-art S-400.

The formal reason is anyway that there is an embargo to buy Russian weapons as a sanction due to Crimean occupation. The true reason may be a general mistrust to Turkey or its president.
 
art
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Re: Updated: U.S. has formally kicked Turkey out of the F-35 JSF program

Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:42 pm

2018 Trump notification to congress- smaller deal 3.5 billion -OMG its not as juuge and biggly as the Kenyan guy did!!!
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/t ... -equipment

So why did Turkey not buy Patriot? Was it connected with holding the US pastor?
 
Spar
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Re: Updated: U.S. has formally kicked Turkey out of the F-35 JSF program

Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:16 pm

art wrote:
why did Turkey not buy Patriot?


Because Turkey wanted a transfer of Patriot missile technology before it would make the purchase..
 
cpd
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:20 am

wingman wrote:
or Turkey just embraces totes cray cray Islamic dictatorship.


Can you repeat that in English for those of us that don't know social media speak? :shakehead:
 
art
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:47 am

Spar wrote:
art wrote:
why did Turkey not buy Patriot?


Because Turkey wanted a transfer of Patriot missile technology before it would make the purchase..


Thanks for that.

cpd wrote:
wingman wrote:
or Turkey just embraces totes cray cray Islamic dictatorship.


Can you repeat that in English for those of us that don't know social media speak? :shakehead:


I, too, don't have a clue what that means.
 
wingman
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Re: Updated: U.S. has formally kicked Turkey out of the F-35 JSF program

Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:24 pm

Totally crazy boys, totally crazy. Even at the ripe old age of 50 I make an effort to understand today's teenagers. What I mean is that Erdogan is steering Turkey awfully close to the path of Iran. The mullahs may be more behind the scenes but they wield a lot of influence, and once you uncork that genie by giving them a seat at the table it has unintended consequences. Any way you cut it, close ties to Europe and the US have given Turkey a wonderful run of economic growth and prosperity. I think this particular affair has the potential to undo some or all of that depending on how Erdogan reacts to the F-35 situation. If he plays the Incirlik card it will likely be his undoing or, worse yet, Turkey's in general. Russia and the US both play hard core geopolitics but Russia doesn't tend to sweeten the pot with economic riches for good behavior.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Updated: U.S. has formally kicked Turkey out of the F-35 JSF program

Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:11 pm

wingman wrote:
Totally crazy boys, totally crazy. Even at the ripe old age of 50 I make an effort to understand today's teenagers. What I mean is that Erdogan is steering Turkey awfully close to the path of Iran. The mullahs may be more behind the scenes but they wield a lot of influence, and once you uncork that genie by giving them a seat at the table it has unintended consequences. Any way you cut it, close ties to Europe and the US have given Turkey a wonderful run of economic growth and prosperity. I think this particular affair has the potential to undo some or all of that depending on how Erdogan reacts to the F-35 situation. If he plays the Incirlik card it will likely be his undoing or, worse yet, Turkey's in general. Russia and the US both play hard core geopolitics but Russia doesn't tend to sweeten the pot with economic riches for good behavior.


Great assessment Wingman.

Erdogan has been on a consolidation path where he is the supreme ruler, still freaked out about the coup attempt. His rule has tried the loan fueled economic growth that was booming but is now coming apart at the seams. The citizens just voted for the 2nd time in Istanbul for a mayor that is in the opposition party. He is using the fights with the EU and the US over trade as a straw man to blame the collapse of the economy. Now he is going after natural gas near Crete that Turkey has no rights to, quite ballsy move.

Turkey knew from the inception of the F-35 partnership that purchasing more Russian equipment is cause for expulsion, he has been reminded of that repeatedly. The expulsion of
Turkey from the F-35 program got concurrence from all of the partners. Reading in people and countries into a Classified program depends totally of allegiance in full to the program, otherwise the value of the classified information decays. Basically it gives the key to the ENIGMA machine so why even code messages anymore.

One of the tenants of NATO is the gradual removal of Soviet / Russian equipment from the member forces, no new Russian equipment is to be procured. The S-400 basically kills all NATO air flights due to the need to transmit "friend or foe" information from the planes to the ground centers. For the S-400 to be effective, all current Turkish Air Force planes will need to provide to the S-400 this "friend or foe" protocol otherwise the S-400 will see their own planes as hostile. This will require all NATO aviation to change the coding for this signal. Not Good. If Turkey was buying Russian tanks NATO would probably look the other way, as it compromises far less.

For now the F-35 expulsion is enough, let's see what Turkey does in response before further penalties. Wingman, you noted the Incirlik card, if played by Turkey, it probably means the end of Turkey within NATO and they will be treated probably worse than Russia. It will cost Turkey dearly, but the West could lose access to the Black Sea over it.
 
Ozair
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Re: Updated: U.S. has formally kicked Turkey out of the F-35 JSF program

Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:36 pm

Esper has made it very clear to Turkey the conditions to re-join the F-35 program, complete removal of the S-400 from Turkish soil.

Esper sets demand that might let Turkey rejoin F-35 program

he Pentagon would consider allowing Turkey to rejoin the F-35 program only if the Russian-made S-400 air defense system is completely removed from Turkish soil, meaning the government in Ankara could not simply keep the systems deactivated in warehouses, the Pentagon’s top official said Wednesday.

“They have to, again, get rid of the S-400 program and completely out of the country [before] we could consider that,” Secretary of Defense Mark Esper told press when asked about the possibility Turkey could find a way to again be part of the Joint Strike Fighter program.

“I have been very clear in both my public comments and privately with my Turkish counterpart: It’s either the F-35 or the S-400,” he said. “It’s not both. It’s not park one in the garage and roll the other one out. It’s one or the other. So we are where we are, and it’s regrettable.”

...

https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... e-country/
 
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Re: Updated: U.S. has formally kicked Turkey out of the F-35 JSF program

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:40 pm

The question isn't longer if Turkey would be a member of the F-35 family or not (unless the US don´t give them a hell of a deal)l, that train has left the station..... next station is if Turkey is to continue to be a NATO member or not. Erdogan has visited Russia and Putin for negotiation on a potential buy of SU-35 or even SU-57. Putin is closer to control most of the black sea!
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
Ozair
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Re: Updated: U.S. has formally kicked Turkey out of the F-35 JSF program

Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:49 am

Relations around Turkey and the F-35 may be warming. Clearly not a compromise of allowing the S-400 and F-35 to coexist but potentially another offer to sell Patriot to Turkey. Will see what price is offered this time.

US offers Turkey new deal on F-35 fighter jets

Multiple Turkish media outlets reported yesterday that the U.S. had offered Turkey a new deal on F-35 fighter jets, boosting optimism that strained relations between the two NATO allies were making progress.

U.S. envoy to Ankara David Satterfield reportedly offered Friday to sell Turkey the Patriot missile defense system, Habertürk and NTV reported.

The offer also included lower tariffs on steel and aluminum as well as a trade deal package that will help the two countries boost trade volume to $100 billion from the current $20 billion – a target Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and his American counterpart Donald Trump both agreed to reach during their G20 meeting in Osaka, Japan in June.

Reports also said a written version of Satterfield's offer is expected to be sent to the Turkish government.

...

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2019 ... ghter-jets
 
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mercure1
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Re: Updated: U.S. has formally kicked Turkey out of the F-35 JSF program

Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:09 am

Turkey has stated it intends to buy 3 more ground-air systems and U.S. is welcome to bid the Patriot system. Existing S-400 order merely fulfills a single specific need and the 3 additional systems would be needed to provide anticipated full country coverage.

I don't expect Turkey to walk away from S-400s. Its moving swiftly towards March 2020 full operational status. Only today they held live-fire training in Gatchina Russia with 11 missiles fired.
Also Russia last week brought the SU-35 to Istanbul for public display and demo flights.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Kiwirob
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:48 am

bikerthai wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Turkey also has the dream to make fighters and weapons, Russia appears to be willing to share their tech, which the West hasn't been willing to do.


This may have more to do with Turkey's current political stance than anything else. Just look at what is India is doing. They've had enough of building Russian military hardware and is planning to build western fighter planes. And Turkey used to have higher standing than India. After all the E7 Peace Eagle was modified in Turkey.

bt


India has also bought S400 and is looking at buying more Migs and Sukhoi's

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 894263.cms
 
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mercure1
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Re: Updated: U.S. has formally kicked Turkey out of the F-35 JSF program

Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:23 am

Turkey in talks about Su-35 followed later by Su-57s

Russia, Turkey in 'progressive' talks on Su-35 fighter jets
https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2019 ... n-official
mercure f-wtcc
 
art
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:38 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Elshad wrote:
Turkey formally kicked out: https://twitter.com/MarcusReports/statu ... 4175015942

Millions of dollars of contributions from Turkey wasted since 2002 because lunatic Erdoğan wants to score some anti-American points.


It appears done, possibly DOD can be nice and let Turkey continue parts production for a few years to maintain continuity. If they play hardball Turkey doesn't get any of the $1B back from their initial partner investment.

The important thing is no further F-35 parts, planes, or information goes to Turkey from this point forward.


Mmmm... is this what happened?

Turkey asks US if it can join JSF program. US says yes. Contracts are signed.
Turkey asks US if it can buy Patriot SAM's. US says no.

so...

Turkey asks Russia if it can buy S-400 SAM's. Russia says yes. Contracts are signed.

so...

US says Tutkey can buy Patriot SAM's. US demands Turkey cancels S-400 contract.
Turkey says no.

so...

US throws its toys out of the pram and unilaterally breaches its JSF contracts with Turkey.

Or have I misunderstood something?
 
WIederling
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:41 pm

art wrote:
Or have I misunderstood something?


Quot licet Iovi non licet Bovi.

or it is a universe of more equal pigs.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Ozair
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:05 pm

art wrote:

Or have I misunderstood something?

You statements are not accurate. The US never denied Turkey the Patriot. The initial offer was made in 2009, https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/t ... d-missiles as part of a Turkish acquisition project for ground based air defence. Turkey in that project selected the Chinese FD-2000 which resulted in strong US/NATO resistance and eventually no contract sale. The main sticking point for Patriot was not enough technology transfer for Turkey. The US has made multiple offers to Turkey for Patriot since that first 2009 request.

As an alternative Turkey could have acquired the Eurosam which would have resulted in no US/NATO resistance or F-35 issues but went after the S-400 with the irony that they still haven't received the specific technology transfer from Russia they were after. The S-400, and FD-2000, were never going to be integrated into the NATO missile defence architecture.

mercure1 wrote:
Turkey in talks about Su-35 followed later by Su-57s

Russia, Turkey in 'progressive' talks on Su-35 fighter jets
https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2019 ... n-official

I would be very surprised if Turkey acquires Su-35. In the absence of F-35 the local manufacture of the Eurofighter makes far more sense to me, especially as Eurofighter production winds down for the partners.
 
Pavlakakos
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:17 am

art wrote:
Turkey asks US if it can join JSF program. US says yes. Contracts are signed.
Turkey asks US if it can buy Patriot SAM's. US says no.


Well, that's half the story. When Turkey asked for Patriots, it demanded also the source codes along with technology transfer... something that US has done only once or twice in history (and most of the manufacturers will also refuse).

AFAIK the only manufacturing country willing to give away its source codes is Sweden (i.e. Saab with the Gripen), but of course... to buy a swedish weapon today, the buyer must sign contracts promising not to use them, so to speak. :D
 
art
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Re: Updated: U.S. has formally kicked Turkey out of the F-35 JSF program

Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:05 pm

@Ozair + @Pavlakakos

Thanks for the corrections. I did not know the reasons for Turkey being refused Patriott. I would agree that Turkey expected too much ToT where Patriot was concerned.

I understand that the deal with Russia is supposed to include ToT so I can see that as one reason for going for the S-400. How do performance and cost compare? Could be another reason for opting for S-400.

At the cost of a lot of peripheral damage (F-35), though.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Updated: U.S. has formally kicked Turkey out of the F-35 JSF program

Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:30 pm

art wrote:
@Ozair + @Pavlakakos

Thanks for the corrections. I did not know the reasons for Turkey being refused Patriott. I would agree that Turkey expected too much ToT where Patriot was concerned.

I understand that the deal with Russia is supposed to include ToT so I can see that as one reason for going for the S-400. How do performance and cost compare? Could be another reason for opting for S-400.

At the cost of a lot of peripheral damage (F-35), though.


An important factor is NATO's requirement that no Soviet / Russian / Chinese equipment or weapons be added by any NATO member, existing equipment a member has when they joined NATO may continue in service. India is not a NATO country, so their buying the S-400 was less of an issue, but quite worrisome to the US as Russian technicians can be at the same base as US equipment, much easier to spy on and get the skinny on the other's equipment. But it also lets us get a closer look at their equipment too.
 
Ozair
Posts: 4270
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Updated: U.S. has formally kicked Turkey out of the F-35 JSF program

Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:24 pm

art wrote:

I understand that the deal with Russia is supposed to include ToT so I can see that as one reason for going for the S-400. How do performance and cost compare? Could be another reason for opting for S-400.

At the cost of a lot of peripheral damage (F-35), though.

The S-400 deal did include technology transfer but not in the missile related areas Turkey was seeking. I provided a source that verified that in one of these threads (too many Turkey and F-35/S-400 threads…).

The F-35 industrial loss is big, far more so than the gain from using the S-400. As I suggested earlier in the thread, the Eurosam would have been an excellent option. It is capable and in service with France and Italy and would have no US concerns. In fact Turkey and France already signed a working agreement on Eurosam soon after Turkey signed the LOI for the S-400.

Turkey Buys from Russia; also Mulls European Missile Systems

Turkey continues to pursue a very political, twin-track approach to modernizing its ground-based long-range air defenses. At the end of December, it signed the anticipated contract to buy the S-400 system from Russia, despite pressure from NATO to abandon the deal. On January 5, as expected, it signed a project definition study contract with Eurosam for a future Long Range Air and Missile Defense System (LORAMIDS). The signing was witnessed by President Macron of France and by President Erdogan of Turkey, during a visit by Erdogan to Paris.
According to Eurosam, the 18-month study will lead to “a state-of-the-art military capability designed to counter the most challenging threats (stealth aircraft, UAVs, cruise missiles, and ballistic missiles).” Eurosam is the joint venture between MBDA (66 percent) and Thales (33 percent) that has produced the SAMP/T system that is now in service with the French and Italian armies. The two European countries have been considering a mid-life upgrade (MLU), to reach initial operating capability around 2024.


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... le-systems

Question is, how much technology is Eurosam willing to transfer to Turkey to win an order that would fulfil the remaining LRSAM requirements and potentially replace the S-400, allowing Turkey to remain within the JSF Partnership…

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