ThePointblank
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Fri May 24, 2019 9:02 am

Ozair wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
^^

I do believe the Turks may end up being very disappointed if they believe they won't be denied their F 35's.

Agree 100%. For all their bluster as the article says all they have paid is just over a billion, compared to the 50 odd billion the US has paid and that is before they factor in acquisition. Turkey has already had about that amount for industrial work anyway so the ledger is very square.

And it's not like other buyers are not champing at the bits to get more work; Japan has more F-35's planned and under purchase than the Turks and they would love to have a larger workshare.
 
neutronstar73
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sun May 26, 2019 4:23 pm

Turkey should be kicked out of the F-35 program. If they want to court the Russians and act like they can play the US against them to get what they want, then let them choose the S-400 and the Su-57. If they want to align themselves with a country that has the GDP of a gas station in Italy, then let them. Erdogan will find himself out on his ear when he sees how fast that economy collapses if the West shuns Turkey for a bit.
 
tu204
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Mon May 27, 2019 4:15 pm

Good lesson for anyone thinking about participating in a project with the US though.

Pretty sure there wasn't anything in the F-35 contract about also being forced to buy any substandard equipment for inflated prices (Patriot). Turkey made a decision to buy a better product and for a better price (S-400) and are now being threatened for it. Nice.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Ozair
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Mon May 27, 2019 5:08 pm

tu204 wrote:
Good lesson for anyone thinking about participating in a project with the US though.

Pretty sure there wasn't anything in the F-35 contract about also being forced to buy any substandard equipment for inflated prices (Patriot). Turkey made a decision to buy a better product and for a better price (S-400) and are now being threatened for it. Nice.

Patriot is what Turkey has wanted for years, they haven't acquired it because they want the technology transfer which the US wasn't providing.
 
tu204
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Mon May 27, 2019 6:32 pm

Ozair wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Good lesson for anyone thinking about participating in a project with the US though.

Pretty sure there wasn't anything in the F-35 contract about also being forced to buy any substandard equipment for inflated prices (Patriot). Turkey made a decision to buy a better product and for a better price (S-400) and are now being threatened for it. Nice.

Patriot is what Turkey has wanted for years, they haven't acquired it because they want the technology transfer which the US wasn't providing.


And apparently aren't getting much technology transfer with the S-400 deal either. However will end up with a better product and for a better price.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Ozair
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Mon May 27, 2019 7:27 pm

tu204 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Good lesson for anyone thinking about participating in a project with the US though.

Pretty sure there wasn't anything in the F-35 contract about also being forced to buy any substandard equipment for inflated prices (Patriot). Turkey made a decision to buy a better product and for a better price (S-400) and are now being threatened for it. Nice.

Patriot is what Turkey has wanted for years, they haven't acquired it because they want the technology transfer which the US wasn't providing.


And apparently aren't getting much technology transfer with the S-400 deal either. However will end up with a better product and for a better price.

Bit hard to say that. S-400 may be cheaper but I'm not convinced it is more effective than Patriot.
 
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Amazonski
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Tue May 28, 2019 5:21 pm

tu204 wrote:
And apparently aren't getting much technology transfer with the S-400 deal either. However will end up with a better product and for a better price.

I wouldn't put my money on S-400 as "a better product". Especially PAC-3 is huge development program and the whole system is wildly exported. While the entire info for S-400 comes from Russian booklets and one controlled test (won from the Chinese competitor).

Also considering the poor field performance of other new Russian systems, namely C-1, I doubt S-400 will be any better.
 
ORDfan101
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Wed May 29, 2019 12:26 pm

As an Israeli, I support removing them from the programme
 
Spar
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:08 am

At this point I don't see how the US could view Erdogan as a trustworthy partner to operate what is, and will continue to be, a weapons system with highly confidential aspects. If he is made to lose face and cancel the SA-400 system at this point, I would expect him to be willing to send his F-35s on radar bomb score missions against Russian SA-400s near Sochi or even just across the Armenian border. As new upgrades are announced in the future, a disloyal character like him could be expected to sell information to the Russians or the Chinese.

We bet on him being a reasonable partner but we lost that bet. Continuing with the deal at this point strikes me as doubling down on a bad bet.
 
texl1649
Posts: 949
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:18 am

I read all trainees (40 of them) are to be expelled from the US and denied access to US military bases now by July 31. It’s over, as it should be. If the “conservatives” in Turkey somehow return to a more normal footing or lose power entirely. Maybe it could be revisited in the future. The era of the US being treated like garbage by ‘allies’ is over.
 
Spar
Posts: 183
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:37 pm

texl1649 wrote:
The era of the US being treated like garbage by ‘allies’ is over.

LOL
You must have been drinking the Trump kool aid recently, as in: "our friends are really our enemies and our enemies are really nice guys that are misunderstood".
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 2834
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:57 pm

Yes we are definitely through the looking glass. I'm still waiting for Trump to do something about Pakistan. But that may be too much to ask.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2558
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:38 am

Amazonski wrote:
tu204 wrote:
And apparently aren't getting much technology transfer with the S-400 deal either. However will end up with a better product and for a better price.

I wouldn't put my money on S-400 as "a better product". Especially PAC-3 is huge development program and the whole system is wildly exported. While the entire info for S-400 comes from Russian booklets and one controlled test (won from the Chinese competitor).

Also considering the poor field performance of other new Russian systems, namely C-1, I doubt S-400 will be any better.


They aren't comparable. PAC-3 is an anti-ballistic missile system that's very limited against atmospheric targets. S-400 is an anti-aircraft system. S-400 will beat the PAC-3 hands down at defense against aircraft.
 
Ozair
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:36 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Amazonski wrote:
tu204 wrote:
And apparently aren't getting much technology transfer with the S-400 deal either. However will end up with a better product and for a better price.

I wouldn't put my money on S-400 as "a better product". Especially PAC-3 is huge development program and the whole system is wildly exported. While the entire info for S-400 comes from Russian booklets and one controlled test (won from the Chinese competitor).

Also considering the poor field performance of other new Russian systems, namely C-1, I doubt S-400 will be any better.


They aren't comparable. PAC-3 is an anti-ballistic missile system that's very limited against atmospheric targets. S-400 is an anti-aircraft system. S-400 will beat the PAC-3 hands down at defense against aircraft.

The PAC-3 MSE modifications have significantly improved the missile against air breathing targets as well as increased range by approx 50%. Given traditionally Russian systems are over specified and western systems are under specified I would say they are reasonably close now from a capability standpoint.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:57 am

Flights at Luke for Turkish pilots has been stopped, as well as access to classified spaces.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/06/10/fi ... 35-pilots/
 
DigitalSea
Posts: 119
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:48 am

I wonder what kind of access Western Intelligence will get to the S-400 once it's in Turkey.
 
P1aneMad
Posts: 326
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:12 am

I think they will get more access to the Indian S-400 batteries than Turkish's.
 
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SAS A340
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:20 pm

I am actually a little surprised that Russia allows the sale of this system to a Nato country... even the S500 is discussed... :stirthepot:
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
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bikerthai
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:37 pm

SAS A340 wrote:
I am actually a little surprised that Russia allows the sale of this system to a Nato country... even the S500 is discussed... :stirthepot:


Imagine if Turkey finally tip over to the Russian side, what will happen to the 737 Peace Eagle. That plane probably have more advance technology than the F-35 or the S500. Talk about intrigue.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Ozair
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:13 pm

SAS A340 wrote:
I am actually a little surprised that Russia allows the sale of this system to a Nato country... even the S500 is discussed... :stirthepot:

Export versions though so highly unlikely to be the same as Russian systems.
 
checksixx
Posts: 1214
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:11 pm

tu204 wrote:
Good lesson for anyone thinking about participating in a project with the US though.

Pretty sure there wasn't anything in the F-35 contract about also being forced to buy any substandard equipment for inflated prices (Patriot). Turkey made a decision to buy a better product and for a better price (S-400) and are now being threatened for it. Nice.


They absolutely include wording on foreign military sales in regard to things like this. There is a good reason for it. Hence the willingness to expel them.
 
hmmwv
Posts: 35
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:00 am

Ozair wrote:
SAS A340 wrote:
I am actually a little surprised that Russia allows the sale of this system to a Nato country... even the S500 is discussed... :stirthepot:

Export versions though so highly unlikely to be the same as Russian systems.


Probably in electronics or software, but the major mechanical systems are likely identical, so you can still gain valuable information like flight characteristics.
 
Ozair
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Re: The U.S. has threatened to expel Turkey from the F-35

Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:02 am

hmmwv wrote:
Ozair wrote:
SAS A340 wrote:
I am actually a little surprised that Russia allows the sale of this system to a Nato country... even the S500 is discussed... :stirthepot:

Export versions though so highly unlikely to be the same as Russian systems.


Probably in electronics or software, but the major mechanical systems are likely identical, so you can still gain valuable information like flight characteristics.

While I agree the mechanical systems would be the same the software is the important bit. EW isn't fooling the mechanical components, it is aimed squarely at the electronic sensors of the system and it is stealth and EW that has kept western airpower so safe against Russian SAMs for 60+ years.

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