Ozair
Posts: 4264
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: New FCAS Unveiled by Dassault for France, Germany & Spain

Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:54 pm

So the negotiation and campaign from Dassault on the FCAS really begins. They are obviously keen for this to be carrier capable from the start but as I have suggested in the past I doubt the Germans will be as enthused. Carrier capability will add weight and complexity to the basic airframe and possibly turn off some export buyers.

European FCAS fighter to be optimised for carrier ops

The manned New Generation Fighter (NGF) component of the Future Combat Air System/Système de Combat Aérien Futur (FCAS/SCAF) being jointly developed by Dassault Aviation and Airbus will be optimised for carrier operations from the outset, a source close to the programme has confirmed to Jane's .

The NGF will follow a similar development path to that of the three variants of the Dassault Rafale fighter, the source added.

Engineers will take into account the lessons learnt from the Dassault Étendard, Super Étendard, and Rafale programmes for corrosion resistance and catapult shots/deck landings compatibility. During carrier landings, large loads are inflicted upon the airframe when impacting the flight deck. The paths through which these shocks and impact loads are absorbed will have to be carefully engineered, the source said.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/90221/eur ... arrier-ops
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 938
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

Re: New FCAS Unveiled by Dassault for France, Germany & Spain

Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:38 pm

I wonder if with modern design, analysis, and construction methods if you could design two related airframes. Two that are largely similar but differ on the strength and weight of certain components.

Especially if the majority of the value is going to be in things like stealth and avionics. Which will largely be the same between versions.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12240
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: New FCAS Unveiled by Dassault for France, Germany & Spain

Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:56 am

Spar wrote:
Alfons wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Alfons, no such code exists. I am very familiar with the classic Hornet and this has never been mentioned by any operator. Nor is there a code for the F-15,16 etc.

As you wish, no problem. :-)

What does "As you wish" mean?

Are you backing off from "I know from first-hand"?


Watch The Princess Bride.
 
Ozair
Posts: 4264
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: New FCAS Unveiled by Dassault for France, Germany & Spain

Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:03 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
I wonder if with modern design, analysis, and construction methods if you could design two related airframes. Two that are largely similar but differ on the strength and weight of certain components.

Especially if the majority of the value is going to be in things like stealth and avionics. Which will largely be the same between versions.

It is certainly possible to do that and while the two airframes could share engines and avionics and stealth etc you would likely still require two different programs to test the airframes given the physical differences.

If you consider Rafale it has a slight weight difference between the C and M versions while the F-35 has a significantly greater difference between the A and C versions. The F-35A has clearly been optimised for the CTOL role while the F-35C has been for the CV role. Given the F-35C will probably have a larger production run than all Rafale variants combined you can see why the JSF program was able to justify the optimisation.

I can't see FCAS manufacturing more than 400 airframes combined including exports so I question whether a separate program for an optimised variant would be worth it. As you suggest new technology may make this easier/cheaper but I'm not yet convinced.
 
Ozair
Posts: 4264
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: New FCAS Unveiled by Dassault for France, Germany & Spain

Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:05 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Spar wrote:
Alfons wrote:
As you wish, no problem. :-)

What does "As you wish" mean?

Are you backing off from "I know from first-hand"?


Watch The Princess Bride.

I am not left handed...
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11834
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: New FCAS Unveiled by Dassault for France, Germany & Spain

Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:13 pm

Germany has said that they would be in favor of building an EU aircraft carrier, so I don't see them opposing a carrier capability !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Ozair
Posts: 4264
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: New FCAS Unveiled by Dassault for France, Germany & Spain

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:23 pm

Some commentary from the CEO of the European Defency Agency on whether FCAS and Tempest are both sustainable going forward. Other comments include an expectation that there will be a consolidation of the European defence industry over the next 5-10 years.

Perhaps the solution is to have BAE buy Dassault… I wonder where we would be today if Airbus and BAE had merged or if Enders suggestion in 2018 of the fighter divisions of Airbus and BAE merging. I’m not sure now the respective Governments would let it happen.

3 questions with the EU defense chief on Europe’s future fighters

Underway in Europe are two high profile sixth-generation aircraft efforts: the Franco-German-Spanish Future Combat Air System, and Britain’s Tempest fighter. But will they converge? Defense News asked the chief executive of the European Defence Agency, Jorge Domecq, for his take on the future of these programs.

It’s quite possible the FCAS program by Spain, Germany and France and the British Tempest program will lead to a situation of two fighters. What’s your assessment?

We’ll have to see, but FCAS is not going to be just one platform. It’s going to be a system of systems. It will be a very complex program; it will take many years. It will be very important for it to be sustainable, that it has the economies of scale that are necessary. And at the same time, as we have these three initial member states signing up, I do not exclude this would bring on other member states as we go long.

What will happen with the Tempest project, I cannot say.

But as the person that oversees FCAS, you would like to see some convergence, right?

Europe would probably have to see convergence toward having a single system of systems, but as I underlined, it’s not an issue of platform. As always, thinking of the competitiveness of the European defense industry, we have to think of program sustainability. Is the next generation of combat aircraft sustainable with several systems of systems in Europe? I have my doubts.

...

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... -fighters/
 
Ozair
Posts: 4264
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: New FCAS Unveiled by Dassault for France, Germany & Spain

Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:28 pm

Indra will lead Spain’s FCAS effort but the initial funding line is very small, just US$28 million to 2021.

Spain names Indra as national prime-contractor for FCAS

The Spanish government has appointed Indra to lead its efforts on the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme with Germany and France.

The decision, which was announced on 6 September, will see Indra co-ordinate the industrial participation of Spain on the project to develop a next-generation air combat system, alongside Airbus in Germany and Dassault in France.

"Indra, in close collaboration with the Ministry of Defense and within the framework of the industrial development plan associated with the programme, will strive to ensure that Spanish industry participates as actively as possible in the latter and facilitate its access to opportunities for knowledge generation, business development, export capacity, the creation of technologies that can also be used in the civil field and high-value employment generation. The FCAS will generate high levels of knowledge and added value for Spanish companies and provide them with opportunities to develop exportable products beyond the programme," the company said.

The announcement that Indra will lead Spain's FCAS effort comes about three months after the country officially joined the project to develop a new fighter combat aircraft as part of a wider system-of-systems. The signing ceremony at the Paris Air Show in June came about four months after a letter of intent (LOI) for Spain's inclusion in the project to develop a New Generation Fighter (NGF) to operate as part of the wider the FCAS (known as Système de Combat Aérien Futur [SCAF] in France) system-of-systems. As previously reported by Jane's , Spain's initial contribution to the project will amount to about EUR25 million (USD28 million) out to 2021.

Jane's first reported in November 2018 that Spain was considering options for the future replacement of its Boeing F/A-18 Hornet fleet in the 2035-plus timeframe.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/90904/spa ... r-for-fcas
 
Ozair
Posts: 4264
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: New FCAS Unveiled by Dassault for France, Germany & Spain

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:37 pm

Airbus and Dassault are frustrated by the lack of urgency of their respective governments to push the project forward. It frankly isn’t a surprise, funding was always going to be a struggle and with Germany still on the brink of recession a delay to moving forward with this project, which really is a comparatively insignificant funding line, is to be expected. It doesn’t bode well for the future though, it is generally very hard to recover time on these projects unless Dassault and Airbus are willing to spend their own funds and move the project forward, and I expect this is the first of many discussions on funding and time/schedule issues between the industrial partners and Governments.

Arms firms fret over delays in Franco-German fighter project

France’s Dassault Aviation and Europe’s Airbus have stepped up pressure on France and Germany to agree the next stage of a planned fighter project, warning Europe’s arms industry and long-term security could suffer from delays.

The two companies are the leading industrial partners in a project to build a futuristic swarm of manned and unmanned warplanes, announced by the leaders of France and Germany two years ago and expanded earlier this year to include Spain.

Dassault and Airbus won a 65-million-euro contract in January to develop the concept for the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) but await a new contract to build demonstrators for interlinked fighters, drones and an “air combat cloud” by 2026.

Dassault Aviation Chief Executive Eric Trappier told a conference of policymakers last month that the demonstrator contract should have been launched in September but this was now slipping toward end-year. He called it “indispensable” to avoid any further delays in order to maintain the 2026 deadline.

No reason has been given for the delays.

On Monday evening, Dassault and Airbus amplified those warnings with a joint statement.

“If Europe does not move forward — and move forward quickly — on this program, it will be impossible to maintain the development and production capabilities needed for a sovereign defense industry,” the companies said.

The warplane system is expected to be operational from 2040, with a view to replacing Dassault’s Rafale and the four-nation Eurofighter, in which Airbus represents both Germany and Spain.

...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-euro ... SKBN1WM22B
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 21369
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: New FCAS Unveiled by Dassault for France, Germany & Spain

Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:15 pm

Ozair wrote:
Airbus and Dassault are frustrated by the lack of urgency of their respective governments to push the project forward. It frankly isn’t a surprise, funding was always going to be a struggle and with Germany still on the brink of recession a delay to moving forward with this project, which really is a comparatively insignificant funding line, is to be expected. It doesn’t bode well for the future though, it is generally very hard to recover time on these projects unless Dassault and Airbus are willing to spend their own funds and move the project forward, and I expect this is the first of many discussions on funding and time/schedule issues between the industrial partners and Governments.

FlightGlobal just posted a similar article as the one you posted from Reuters with some of the same quotes.

I agree with your pessimistic outlook.

The governments are lukewarm while a project of this magnitude requires the exact opposite, a sense of urgency and a willingness to sacrifice other priorities to make this happen.

I think the fears being voiced by Airbus and Dassault are quite real.

It seems their government is only willing to pony up enough funds to say they're "doing something" but not enough to get anything done.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 747classic and 25 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos