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texl1649
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Re: New FCAS Unveiled by Dassault for France, Germany & Spain

Tue May 18, 2021 10:27 am

art wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
An agreement for work share on a technology demonstrator today makes it seem quite improbable any IOC could be achieved prior to 2035, if past is prelude (Eurofighter, A400M).


Germany will be getting more Eurofighters in coming years and possibly F/A-18. France will be getting more Rafales. Spain could order more Eurofighters/F-35 in the near future to replace Hornets Is there any great urgency in getting FCAS into service before mid-2030's?


Yes, if they want to operate tactical aircraft before the mid-30’s in contested air space. France and Germany will be fully 40 years behind in getting/using/applying tactics for stealth aircraft it seems. The F-15EX is a hot debate topic precisely because it will struggle in any future conflict due to advances/threats from advanced defenses, on the other side of the pond, yet the two primary EU powers are happy to skip another 15 years. It’s sort of shocking, really.
 
stratable
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Re: New FCAS Unveiled by Dassault for France, Germany & Spain

Tue May 18, 2021 4:05 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Yes, if they want to operate tactical aircraft before the mid-30’s in contested air space. France and Germany will be fully 40 years behind in getting/using/applying tactics for stealth aircraft it seems. The F-15EX is a hot debate topic precisely because it will struggle in any future conflict due to advances/threats from advanced defenses, on the other side of the pond, yet the two primary EU powers are happy to skip another 15 years. It’s sort of shocking, really.


I agree with you that Germany and France are a bit late to the stealth game. Then again, it does not really matter as much since they're not planning on engaging in offensive warfare.
Germany's Airforce is supposed to primarily do homeland defense. When you can rely on ground radar, upgraded Eurofighter technologies, American intelligence, etc. (as a layperson) I don't see an urgent need for a stealth aircraft. As far as I understood, the primary benefit of stealth today is in an offensive war against a formidable opponent (i.e. Russia or China). Germany doesn't even fully use its Tornados in Afghanistan. France is (as far as I'm aware) mostly operating in Northern Africa which is hardly a contested airspace.

Re tactics, I don't think it's that much of an issue. They'll have a good idea of how to combat enemy aircraft, especially due to intelligence sharing in Europe and with the Americans.
Stealth tactics are likely already designed, the same goes for counter stealth tactics. You'd have to design your game plan to build an aircraft around it.

Just my two cents
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stratable
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Re: Trinational FCAS Programme News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:33 am

German media reporting that the Bundeswehr and Ministry of Defense were not happy with FCAS in its current form and demanded significant financial and technological changes to the program.
Internal reports apparently state that:
The project was a design based on French needs and was more a Rafale+ rather than a 6th gen fighter. Currently, necessary technologies were not envisioned appropriately
and might arrive late, at too high costs or possibly not at all. German and Spanish goverments were simply there to pay for a French project.

https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Bundeswehr- ... 98142.html (in German).
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mxaxai
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Re: Trinational FCAS Programme News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:11 pm

Coincidentally Merkel in a joint press conference with Macron last week:
Merkel: (...)
We have talked about our cooperation in the defense sector. Here I am pleased that we have reached a widespread agreement on the FCAS project for a combat aircraft of the future, also together with Spain, and that we are also seeing progress on MGCS, the tank project. On FCAS, the negotiations have been anything but easy. But it is an example of how Germany and France can solve even complicated situations well. (...)

and the joint statement:
We renew our commitment to improving European military capabilities through industrial cooperation, such as on the Future Land Combat System (MGCS). We welcome the agreement reached by the governments of Germany, France and Spain with their industries on the Next Generation Weapon System/Future Air Combat System (NGWS/FCAS) with the aim of awarding the relevant contracts before the end of summer 2021. We support the enhanced cooperation between our defense industries and reaffirm our common goal of advancing defense cooperation based on the successful implementation of the Franco-German Agreement on Export Controls in the Armaments Sector.

https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/ ... at-1919762 [German]
https://www.bundesregierung.de/resource ... download=1 [German]
Clearly, there are some who would welcome more advanced technology, and others who are happy with a more risk-averse approach. Since the original report is still classified, it remains unclear what the mentioned "necessary technologies" and the "lack of innovative concepts" are.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: Trinational FCAS Programme News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:21 pm

That sounds a lot like France is pushing to use the avionics, engines, and secondary systems of the Rafale in a more stealthy shape to get what they believe is a low risk path to their own stealth fighter. While that is a logical approach, it does nothing for German or Spanish industry.
 
art
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Re: Trinational FCAS Programme News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:01 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
That sounds a lot like France is pushing to use the avionics, engines, and secondary systems of the Rafale in a more stealthy shape to get what they believe is a low risk path to their own stealth fighter. While that is a logical approach, it does nothing for German or Spanish industry.


So what options has Germany got? If France is way ahead of Germany in terms of current technology but Germany wants new technology, what technology might Germany be able to develop for the programme? Same question for Spain.

It is a bit late for Germany to pull out but perhaps Merkel's successor will want to renegotiate to get the programme re-balanced to suit Germany better.
 
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Leovinus
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Re: Trinational FCAS Programme News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:58 pm

I suppose it depends on what is renegotiated. Considering a big gripe has been with intellectual property protection it gives credence to France focusing on a lot of existing technology, meaning that partner nations might struggle with work-share and their own IP development. It's supposed to be cooperation, not license building a Dassault fighter together. As to what the aircraft might not do well enough technically for the different parties is up for speculation considering we don't know exactly what it offers now and what they want. So that's just useless speculation at this point.

But if one of the major gripes is R&D for new generation features to supplant "older" Rafale technology I don't see why package upgrades can't be agreed on. Which would entail work on the initial airframes could start more quickly. So long as everyone is agreed on what kind of packages the airframe will need to carry at some point so it is dimensioned correctly, naturally.

I'm really looking forward to this and the British Tempest. Exciting times!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trinational FCAS Programme News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:57 pm

art wrote:
what technology might Germany be able to develop for the programme? .


Top notch radar, hardware for rf jamming and excellent missile technology. Generally optics/sensors.

Best regards,
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
art
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Re: Trinational FCAS Programme News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:19 pm

Top NATO general urges ‘alignment’ between US and European sixth-gen fighter plans

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ter-plans/

Sensible advice, isn't it?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trinational FCAS Programme News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:25 pm

There is no need to think about it really, we already saw what happened with Rafale and Eurofighter. Clearly wasted opportunities.

However politics is a complicated thing. From articles we get here in France, one problem is that Germany is too aligned with the US, with many military brass just wanting to kill FCAS so they can buy F-35s. Others want a FCAS through pillaging Dassault's IP.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
mxaxai
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Re: Trinational FCAS Programme News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:13 pm

Aesma wrote:
Others want a FCAS through pillaging Dassault's IP.

Eh, it's not so much that Germany and Spain want Dassault's IP but rather that many systems are being developed around a core of Dassault technologies, which devaluates the research and experience of the other partners.
From their POV, only Dassault is getting money for cutting edge development while they are relegated to supplier duties. The same is happening on the engine side, where Safran is getting R&D funding for a new 120 kN engine, possibly variable cycle, while MTU "only" gets responsibility for maintenance activities.

Also, as Airbus found out, it's impossible to develop something efficiently when all partners compete against each other. Many of the A380 and A400M problems were the result of inadequate communication and distrust between the various locations.

On the other hand, the US are concerned about efforts, mostly led by France, to make FCAS independent from ITAR regulations and other US / non-EU / non-French technologies.This raises questions regarding the interoperability of FCAS and F-35 (and other US aircraft). There are also some who are calling for a de-americanisation of joint NATO technologies like AWACS.

For example, some desire a French / European alternative to Link 16 (possibly based on the Rafale F4 systems). For the demonstrator, the more powerful EJ200 engine was dismissed in favor of the M88 because (a) Safran is not involved and (b) RR is involved, even if that means that the demonstrator has to be scaled down significantly. Similarly, the demonstrator is planned to use French SatCom, French data management, French stealth technologies ...

From a report of the senate last year: http://www.senat.fr/rap/r19-642-2/r19-642-20.html
 
art
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Re: Trinational FCAS Programme News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:35 pm

mxaxai wrote:
For the demonstrator, the more powerful EJ200 engine was dismissed in favor of the M88 because (a) Safran is not involved and (b) RR is involved, even if that means that the demonstrator has to be scaled down significantly.


Now, that does sound dumb. I'm surprised Germany and Spain did not insist on the use of the more powerful engine.

PS Result will be a demonstrator that is further away from the real thing than it needs to be!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trinational FCAS Programme News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:38 pm

The ITAR thing should be a given. NATO might not even exist when the plane will become operational.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
art
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Trinational FCAS Programme News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:27 pm

German defense ministry seeks $5.3 billion for next FCAS research phase

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... rch-phase/

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