superbizzy73
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US Drone Shot Down

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:04 am

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... wk-459217/

...this should make things even more interesting in the Persian Gulf area.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:29 am

superbizzy73 wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/iran-claims-shoot-down-of-rq-4-global-hawk-459217/

...this should make things even more interesting in the Persian Gulf area.


Interesting is a strange word to use in this context. I could end up in a bloody conflict.
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sonicruiser
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:08 pm

Mods, please edit the title to add more context. “Iran shoots down US drone”
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:26 pm

The President just tweeted "Iran made a very big mistake!".

Something will happen, the question is what and when.

A lot of people will hear the word "drone", and think that's no big deal.

They don't understand we're talking about a highly advanced and expensive military survaillance aircraft with the wingspan of a 737.

Would it be an act of war if they shot down a P-8 Poseidon with crew? If yes, does the fact that the RQ-4 Global Hawk doesn't have an onboard crew make a difference? I mean in legal terms, not the value of human life.
 
BravoOne
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:15 pm

Where did this drone come down? On land or sea?
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:28 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Where did this drone come down? On land or sea?


As far as I know, it happened in the Strait of Hormuz. Iran claims it was in Iranian airspace, the US claims it was in international airspace.

But Pentagon is about to have a briefing shortly so we'll see their side of the story. It will probably be broadcast on all the major networks.

Update:

Here's the briefing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea7Kr_5f57E

Start at 13:30
 
YIMBY
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:39 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
The President just tweeted "Iran made a very big mistake!".

Something will happen, the question is what and when.

A lot of people will hear the word "drone", and think that's no big deal.

They don't understand we're talking about a highly advanced and expensive military survaillance aircraft with the wingspan of a 737.

Would it be an act of war if they shot down a P-8 Poseidon with crew? If yes, does the fact that the RQ-4 Global Hawk doesn't have an onboard crew make a difference? I mean in legal terms, not the value of human life.


Which party cares about legal terms in international issues?

In any case the borderline is the borderline i.e. was it over Iranian or international waters. If it entered Iranian airspace it was already an aggressive act. Evidently it fell on the sea as we have not seen videos about soldiers dancing around the wreck.

The burden of proof lies on the shooter. Certainly both parties and several others have enough radar recordings to prove the tracks, but we have to be skeptic as we may be shown fake data.

The missile was apparently a soviet design, BUK-like high performance SAM, that can reach high altitudes where the drone flies. Such launch might pose risk to passenger flights, if the missile misses the intended target.

Given previous tendencies to shoot civilian aircraft by error, I would avoid flying anywhere near Iran and its adversaries. Fortunately I have no reason to be there.
 
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Aesma
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:24 pm

The briefing only shows a point, not a trajectory.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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aeromoe
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:27 pm

Guess I'll have to re-order from Amazon...I been wondering where my package is :shock:
AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR BY B6 CO CP(2) DG DL EA EI EN FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(1) OZ(2) PA PI PT QF QQ RM RO RV(1) RV(2) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(2) ZZ 9K
 
Spar
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:55 pm

YIMBY wrote:
The missile was apparently a soviet design, BUK-like high performance SAM, that can reach high altitudes where the drone flies. Such launch might pose risk to passenger flights, if the missile misses the intended target. Given previous tendencies to shoot civilian aircraft by error, I would avoid flying anywhere near Iran and its adversaries. Fortunately I have no reason to be there.


By "previous tendencies to shoot civilian aircraft by error" are you referring to Iran Air 655?

The missile was probably an advanced version of the Russian SA300 which Iran has in quantity; I believe they are currently making their own version of the missile for this system. Iran has an extensive air defense system which has been built with the help of the Russians. The Russians are probably using Iran's AD network as a lab for examining US stealth vehicles as well as the effectiveness of that network.
 
Spar
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:14 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Where did this drone come down? On land or sea?


Iran says it was targeted at 25°59’43”N 57°02’25”E, which is about nine miles from the Iranian shoreline (within Iranian territorial waters.)

Nobody has so far given it's crash site location.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:25 am

This is part of the intent of uncrewed aircraft. Should one get shot down you get hurt in the wallet and not the social conscience. I don't expect anything dramatic to change as a part of this.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:59 am

Sixth Skyking message today; per NYT a strike package was authorized and abruptly called off.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
hmmwv
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:58 pm

Well, Iran showed the wreckage, that'll give them more ammunition to support their claim that the Triton was in Iranian waters.
 
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mfranjic
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:03 pm


The tension between Iran and the United States is growing. Following the accusation of Iran in an attack on oil tankers, the Americans were left without one of their most sophisticated UAVs. In the military command of Iran indicate that the drone crossed the Iranian border, and was shot down by air defense forces in the province of Hormozgan. US military officials have denied this information, indicating that the drone was over international territorial waters.

Some media reported that the Northrop Grumman.MQ-4C Triton drone was hit. According to thedrive.com, the truth is in the middle, as the Iranians shot down the RQ-4N BAMS-D (Broad Area Maritime Surveillance-Demonstrator) - an experienced prototype of the MQ-4C drone based on the Northrop Grumman.RQ-4 Global Hawk.

……..…Image

…..…Image

Iranian news agency IRNA stated that the Iranian air defense forces shot down the RQ-4 Global Hawk drone. Later, the portal tasnimnews.com added the information, saying that the American drone was hit by a missile from the Raad complex, Iranian equivalent of the Russian Buk missile system ( «Бук» 9К37 ).

Downed by Iran, the US strategic reconnaissance drone RQ-4 Global Hawk can be useful to Russia and China, writes The Drive.

The American edition notes that the systems onboard the drone are of interest to Iran and his friends, to which The Drive referred Russia and China.

“This [RQ-4 Global Hawk] is the most advanced unmanned system that is currently operated by the US Air Force in a secret mode”, the material says. Until recently…

RQ-4 Global Hawk was shot down on June 20 in the Strait of Hormuz.

In September 2018, the United States Air Force announced that the crash of the RQ-4 Global Hawk in June 2017 was due to a malfunction of its navigation system.

The Northrop Grumman RQ-4 Global Hawk high-altitude strategic reconnaissance drone can reach speeds of up to 800 km/h and fly at an altitude of 19.800 m / 64.961 ft and at a distance of 24.900 km / 13.445 nmi. The duration of the apparatus being in the air is 36 hours. The onboard equipment of the RQ-4 Global Hawk includes high-definition sensors, electronic warfare systems, signal relaying and electronic intelligence.

Mario
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Aesma
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:49 pm

So, how many people in a P-8, 35 like the Iranians are guessing, or 38 like Trump is saying ?
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tu204
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:17 am

I doubt we will know for sure where it was shot down, but I'll take the US claims with a grain of salt as this wouldn't be the first time violating Iranian airspace with drones.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2 ... 0_incident

I believe there were several events in the 2000's also where US drones were shot down inside Iran and the US had to admit in the end that the flights were authorized.
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hmmwv
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:48 pm

Aesma wrote:
So, how many people in a P-8, 35 like the Iranians are guessing, or 38 like Trump is saying ?


We probably will never know, 35 or 38 people is a lot for a P-8, of course in many missions it carries passengers, sometimes even civilians like reporters. It's interesting that the number of people onboard that Iran guessed is very close to Trump's claim. Maybe that number was mentioned in ATC communications?
 
superbizzy73
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:23 pm

Sorry to be off-topic a bit, but with all the equipment inside a P-8, I find it very difficult to understand how 35 (or 38) passengers can fit, unless they’re all standing. The crew is usually the flight crew (2) and the mission crew, which can be up to 7.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:51 pm

superbizzy73 wrote:
Sorry to be off-topic a bit, but with all the equipment inside a P-8, I find it very difficult to understand how 35 (or 38) passengers can fit, unless they’re all standing. The crew is usually the flight crew (2) and the mission crew, which can be up to 7.


The max number of people that the P-8 can carry depends on how many seats is installed (everyone need a seat during take off and landing). If you look at the typical layout images available on the internet, you can see that a P-8 can carry 22-24 people max.

2 pilot + 1 or 2 observer seats in the cockpit.
2 sleeper seats
2 Mission Observer seats.
5-6 Operator console seats (The 6th mission console is installed on the P-8I aircraft but is not on all P-8A aircraft (yet))
4 mission planning seats
Up to 6 ditching "guest" seats. There is room for more, however the additional seats require special oxygen provision (similar to the palletize seats on some military transport).

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
superbizzy73
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:05 pm

bikerthai wrote:
superbizzy73 wrote:
Sorry to be off-topic a bit, but with all the equipment inside a P-8, I find it very difficult to understand how 35 (or 38) passengers can fit, unless they’re all standing. The crew is usually the flight crew (2) and the mission crew, which can be up to 7.


The max number of people that the P-8 can carry depends on how many seats is installed (everyone need a seat during take off and landing). If you look at the typical layout images available on the internet, you can see that a P-8 can carry 22-24 people max.

2 pilot + 1 or 2 observer seats in the cockpit.
2 sleeper seats
2 Mission Observer seats.
5-6 Operator console seats (The 6th mission console is installed on the P-8I aircraft but is not on all P-8A aircraft (yet))
4 mission planning seats
Up to 6 ditching "guest" seats. There is room for more, however the additional seats require special oxygen provision (similar to the palletize seats on some military transport).

bt


Thank you for the info, bikerthai. I didn’t realize there’s that much space (with all the mission computers, monitors, hardware, etc. back there), but the 35 (38) numbers just seemed way too high.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:29 pm

The extra space was why the Navy selected the 737 over the P-3 for the MMA refresh. It allow for growth of additional capabilities that they have not thought of yet.

bt
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N14AZ
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:49 pm

mfranjic wrote:
Image[/url]

…..…[url=https://twitter.com/Tasnimnews_EN/status/1142012637686960129?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1142012637686960129&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftime.com%2F5611222%2Frq-4-global-hawk-iran-shot-down%2F]Image

Hmmm, strange, nobody asking... so what do you guys think, is it a write-off? :duck:
 
estorilm
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:07 pm

N14AZ wrote:
mfranjic wrote:
Image[/url]

…..…[url=https://twitter.com/Tasnimnews_EN/status/1142012637686960129?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1142012637686960129&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftime.com%2F5611222%2Frq-4-global-hawk-iran-shot-down%2F]Image

Hmmm, strange, nobody asking... so what do you guys think, is it a write-off? :duck:

I just want to know how the HELL we let this thing fall into enemy hands. I can't even imagine the goldmine of technology they'll get, especially if any of the optics and cameras are even remotely intact. Sigh.
 
Spar
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:55 pm

estorilm wrote:
I just want to know how the HELL we let this thing fall into enemy hands. I can't even imagine the goldmine of technology they'll get, especially if any of the optics and cameras are even remotely intact. Sigh.

Why do you consider Iran our enemy? They are 8,000 miles away and haven't invaded anyone for the last couple hundred years anyway. This police the world with our narrow tolerance for other nation's choices is going to be our demise. We sure as hell shouldn't be fighting Israel's battles and supporting their effort to steal as much territory as they possibly can. That can lead to nothing but permanent war. They are no friend of ours, we are just their chumps; the day the US falls into disarray, they will merely go back to their roots, which are Russian in case you don't know. They'll cast us aside like a used condom.

I wouldn't worry so much about the "technology", that drone wasn't very good at what it was designed for and supposed to be able to do anyway: back to the drawing board.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:48 pm

Spar wrote:
They are 8,000 miles away and haven't invaded anyone for the last couple hundred years anyway.


Technically you are correct. As a country they did not invade the US. However as the Revolutionary Guard, one of the current entity in power, they did invade "US soil" in 1979.

They also supported Hezbollah when that group bombed the US Marine base in Lebanon.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Spar
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:16 pm

bikerthai wrote:
they did invade "US soil" in 1979.


Clever retort, but this is not a word game.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:59 am

It was not word games in 79. And there were fatalities, maybe not of embassy staff, but of the soldiers in their failed attempt to rescue the staff.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Spar
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:40 pm

bikerthai wrote:
It was not word games in 79. And there were fatalities, maybe not of embassy staff, but of the soldiers in their failed attempt to rescue the staff.

bt

Sure kid.

In your mind Iran invaded the United States in 1979.
Yea, right!
 
estorilm
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:03 pm

Spar wrote:
estorilm wrote:
I just want to know how the HELL we let this thing fall into enemy hands. I can't even imagine the goldmine of technology they'll get, especially if any of the optics and cameras are even remotely intact. Sigh.

Why do you consider Iran our enemy? They are 8,000 miles away and haven't invaded anyone for the last couple hundred years anyway. This police the world with our narrow tolerance for other nation's choices is going to be our demise. We sure as hell shouldn't be fighting Israel's battles and supporting their effort to steal as much territory as they possibly can. That can lead to nothing but permanent war. They are no friend of ours, we are just their chumps; the day the US falls into disarray, they will merely go back to their roots, which are Russian in case you don't know. They'll cast us aside like a used condom.

I wouldn't worry so much about the "technology", that drone wasn't very good at what it was designed for and supposed to be able to do anyway: back to the drawing board.

I won't justify 95% of that with a response - kinda absurd.

In any event, technologically-speaking, such a device (representing billions in R&D) should never be made available to non-ally foreign governments. Better? Even you can probably agree with that. :lol:
 
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bikerthai
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:36 pm

Spar wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
It was not word games in 79. And there were fatalities, maybe not of embassy staff, but of the soldiers in their failed attempt to rescue the staff.

bt

Sure kid.

In your mind Iran invaded the United States in 1979.
Yea, right!


Thanks for the complement, but flattery does me no good :bigmouth: I was alive when this happened, and remember it on the TV :old:

And if you read these post more carefully, you will see that I did not say Iran did not invade US soil. I said the Revolutionary Guard, which was not yet official the Iranian government when this happened. I stand corrected. Embassy ground is not US soil.

bt
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Spar
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:07 pm

estorilm wrote:
Spar wrote:
estorilm wrote:
I just want to know how the HELL we let this thing fall into enemy hands. I can't even imagine the goldmine of technology they'll get, especially if any of the optics and cameras are even remotely intact. Sigh.

Why do you consider Iran our enemy? They are 8,000 miles away and haven't invaded anyone for the last couple hundred years anyway. This police the world with our narrow tolerance for other nation's choices is going to be our demise. We sure as hell shouldn't be fighting Israel's battles and supporting their effort to steal as much territory as they possibly can. That can lead to nothing but permanent war. They are no friend of ours, we are just their chumps; the day the US falls into disarray, they will merely go back to their roots, which are Russian in case you don't know. They'll cast us aside like a used condom.

I wouldn't worry so much about the "technology", that drone wasn't very good at what it was designed for and supposed to be able to do anyway: back to the drawing board.

I won't justify 95% of that with a response - kinda absurd.

Where's the absurdity? Do you deny that they are 8,000 miles away and represent no threat to the US? Do you deny that the history of the "police the world" campaign the United States has been on post WW2 has been nearly a complete history of failure? Do you need to see a list of these failures?

Do you try to pretend that Israel is not the source of the troubles in the ME? (hint: These people have not been at war with each other for a thousand years.)

estorilm wrote:
In any event, technologically-speaking, such a device (representing billions in R&D) should never be made available to non-ally foreign governments. Better? Even you can probably agree with that.

The problem with the US drone program, both armed and unarmed, is that they make it so easy for the US to get involved in places where we shouldn't be involved. Sending drones over the sovereign nation of Iran is a perfect example of that. The use of drones can easily have the effect of expanding problems that should be solved.
 
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Aesma
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:58 am

bikerthai wrote:
Spar wrote:
They are 8,000 miles away and haven't invaded anyone for the last couple hundred years anyway.


Technically you are correct. As a country they did not invade the US. However as the Revolutionary Guard, one of the current entity in power, they did invade "US soil" in 1979.

They also supported Hezbollah when that group bombed the US Marine base in Lebanon.

bt


Actually the US invaded Iran in 1953 and lost power in 1979.

estorilm wrote:
In any event, technologically-speaking, such a device (representing billions in R&D) should never be made available to non-ally foreign governments. Better? Even you can probably agree with that. :lol:


What do you suggest, then ? If you don't use such an asset in such a situation, then it has no use.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
estorilm
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:45 pm

Aesma wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Spar wrote:
They are 8,000 miles away and haven't invaded anyone for the last couple hundred years anyway.


Technically you are correct. As a country they did not invade the US. However as the Revolutionary Guard, one of the current entity in power, they did invade "US soil" in 1979.

They also supported Hezbollah when that group bombed the US Marine base in Lebanon.

bt


Actually the US invaded Iran in 1953 and lost power in 1979.

estorilm wrote:
In any event, technologically-speaking, such a device (representing billions in R&D) should never be made available to non-ally foreign governments. Better? Even you can probably agree with that. :lol:


What do you suggest, then ? If you don't use such an asset in such a situation, then it has no use.

My post was in response to the images of Iranians playing with the pieces of a $140M piece of US technology, not that it was being used. I absolutely think it should have been used, and I'd imagine the information it was forwarding to folks in charge was probably priceless for situational awareness - both political and strategic / military in nature.

I'm just surprised that we let it fall into their hands is all. However, if it was indeed following the route indicated, why didn't it fall into neutral waters for us to recover? That's really my primary question here.

Why do you think they tried to shoot down the other drone monitoring the tanker hours before they attacked it? They knew it was watching...
 
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Aesma
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:11 pm

Did the US have assets on the water near the crash site ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Kiwirob
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:31 pm

bikerthai wrote:
It was not word games in 79. And there were fatalities, maybe not of embassy staff, but of the soldiers in their failed attempt to rescue the staff.

bt


You can’t blame the Iranians because the US mission was an utter failure.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:59 pm

Aesma wrote:
Actually the US invaded Iran in 1953 and lost power in 1979.


Yes, but it was overshadowed by another US invasion elsewhere in the world :bigthumbsup:

Speaking of which . . .

Spar wrote:
Do you need to see a list of these failures?


One significant success was on the Korean peninsula from which we now have a strong economy rivaling that of Japan.

Heck, if the Vietnamese weren't so stubborn, proud and tough fighters and just lose the war to the US, their economy would be in much better shape than they are today, and they would not have to worry about the Chinese encroaching into their sea lanes :scratchchin:

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:02 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
It was not word games in 79. And there were fatalities, maybe not of embassy staff, but of the soldiers in their failed attempt to rescue the staff.

bt


You can’t blame the Iranians because the US mission was an utter failure.


Nah, I did not blame the Iranians, I was just stating that the revolution did not leave the US unscathed in human life. People tend to remember the release of all the hostages but forget about those soldiers who died in the sandstorm.

bt
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:06 pm

Aesma wrote:
Did the US have assets on the water near the crash site ?


Most likely yes, the Iranians mentioned that they could have targeted a P-8A in the area. It was the P-8A aircraft that took picture of the Iranian removing a mine from a tanker.

And yes, the P-8A does have countermeasures, so shooting one down would not be as easy shooting down a drone.

bt
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HaveBlue
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:04 pm

estorilm wrote:

estorilm wrote:

I'm just surprised that we let it fall into their hands is all. However, if it was indeed following the route indicated, why didn't it fall into neutral waters for us to recover? That's really my primary question here.



It flies at 60,000' or more. If it is skirting the line and gets shot down, can it not drift into non neutral areas? I just spent some time with some Navy guys that used to fly border surveillance back in the day and they were laughing and going on about how they flew on the good side of the line when they did it, but just on it, like as close as you can get. So my thoughts are if it were close to straddling the line but has 5 or more miles to go down to hit the ground, maybe by that point it is inside the line.
 
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Aesma
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:36 pm

You should look at the footage again, that thing had lost a wing, no way to control it.

bikerthai : I said on the water, boats that could have recovered the debris. And probably come in direct contact with iranian boats...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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bikerthai
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Re: US Drone Shot Down

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:30 pm

Aesma wrote:
bikerthai : I said on the water, boats that could have recovered the debris. And probably come in direct contact with iranian boats...


Gotcha :fight:

HaveBlue wrote:
I just spent some time with some Navy guys that used to fly border surveillance back in the day and they were laughing and going on about how they flew on the good side of the line when they did it, but just on it, like as close as you can get.


Interesting bit of information. I can imagine the Iranian planner for the shoot down knowing the track of the drone. They then wait for the prevailing wind to be in the right direction before taking a shot.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Spar
Posts: 295
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:37 pm

Re: US Drone Shot Down

Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:09 am

bikerthai wrote:
Spar wrote:
Do you need to see a list of these failures?


One significant success was on the Korean peninsula from which we now have a strong economy rivaling that of Japan.

Heck, if the Vietnamese weren't so stubborn, proud and tough fighters and just lose the war to the US, their economy would be in much better shape than they are today, and they would not have to worry about the Chinese encroaching into their sea lanes :scratchchin:

bt
The Korean war wouldn't have been on a list of failures I would have posted.

The Korean war was clearly started by Russia which armed Kim's warlord granddaddy and sent him to invade the peninsula after the US had already indicated that it was going to pull out of Korea.

MacArthur completely botched the job of defending "South Korea" by trying to expand the war into China, but that wasn't a fault of any expansionist aims of the Truman administration. That was just MacArthur being the incompetent ass that he was.

HaveBlue wrote:
I just spent some time with some Navy guys that used to fly border surveillance back in the day and they were laughing and going on about how they flew on the good side of the line when they did it, but just on it, like as close as you can get.

The Air Force guys used to fly toward the soviet border, turning away at the last minute so as to provoke a response which could be analyzed. I assume that the Navy did that too.
 
LMP737
Posts: 5894
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: US Drone Shot Down

Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:04 am

bikerthai wrote:
It was not word games in 79. And there were fatalities, maybe not of embassy staff, but of the soldiers in their failed attempt to rescue the staff.

bt


Iran paid a far heavier price for the embassy takeover.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.

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