SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:25 am

Ok what you need to understand is that ultimately an Air Force is a tool. All those neat fighter planes are not cool toys (despite what neoconservatives think) they’re equipment, tools (incidentally neoconservatives are also tools but that’s a different sense.)

Does Ireland have a job that fits the tool? No. A fighter plane that sits on the tarmac and goes to air shows and nothing else isn’t being useful. Yes it can go “on readiness” but is it a real job, prepared to intercept a known and anticipated threat, or an arbitrary excuse to justify the cool toy?
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:26 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Austria only has a handful of Eurofighters for air policing, which realistically they don’t need.


If i recall correctly Austria came to the conclusion they need ~20 high performance fighters for effective policing, 40 to mount any kind of meaningful air defense and twice that to do so effectively .... at least for a limited time.

Given how neighboring nations considered Austrian airspace free to transit without even asking before they got their Eurofighters, but not after, i´d say that has worked out just fine for them. Of course a cheaper modern fighter would have accomplished the same.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
GDB
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:59 pm

embraer420 wrote:
GDB wrote:
johns624 wrote:
In the last several years, they've gone down from 10 to 7 infantry battalions. That shows an expansion isn't in the cards. All are light infantry, also. They have a couple of Piranha squadrons, but basically no armour either.


Yes, however for each open place there are 100's if not more applications, great so they can really pick and choose, though if they wanted more they could still do this and not lower their standards.
The fact they do not see the need to or have replaced directly, (with tracked light armour) the Scorpion light tanks they used for years, makes the idea the Defence Forces would seek to operate fast jets with all that entails, in costs and relevance to their mission, even more unlikely.


Expansion of the ground forces and the creation of an Air Force are completely different. Just because they haven't replaced some of the old ground equipment doesn't mean they couldn't or wouldn't buy jets. The decision to procure fast jets and create an air force would likely come from politicians not military personnel.


Quite right, so imagine their faces when they see the bill for the most even the most limited, cheapest option available, right before they scan the costs to run such a force in the years ahead.
They will also be very aware of the current arrangement, with the UK, for general air policing of irritating Russian attempts at willy waving and the now unlikely event of a repeat of 9/11.

There are NATO members, some of the smaller Baltic states, which do not have fast jet fleets.
Since with their limited resources they concentrate on how best they can counter the threat, in this case with their hostile neighbor run by a man who has never gotten over the dissolution of the USSR, including these independent states who could not wait to leave the USSR and Russian interference in general.

In their case, it means well trained troops, a good reserve/call up system, intelligence and border security. The threat would most likely be from a now familiar playbook, calls from an 'oppressed' Russian minority for 'help' from the 'mother country'.
Followed by threats and incursions, covertly or otherwise.

With Ireland it's different, no threat near them, however if some of these small Baltic states, with Russia right next to them, can live without fast jets, (of which they'd only be able to afford/operate a handful), surely so can Ireland.
You can bet that would also be pointed out around any Irish Government cabinet buying fast jets was mooted.
 
embraer420
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:49 pm

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Ok what you need to understand is that ultimately an Air Force is a tool. All those neat fighter planes are not cool toys (despite what neoconservatives think) they’re equipment, tools (incidentally neoconservatives are also tools but that’s a different sense.)

Does Ireland have a job that fits the tool? No. A fighter plane that sits on the tarmac and goes to air shows and nothing else isn’t being useful. Yes it can go “on readiness” but is it a real job, prepared to intercept a known and anticipated threat, or an arbitrary excuse to justify the cool toy?

A fighter jet is not a toy, it will not be useless. Airspace defence is not something you can afford to not take seriously. Also, if we have an Air Force and personnel that are experienced with jets, we can deploy overseas to help train other air forces, or in the future, if the government decide to shift their policy, they will be able to do so quickly and inexpensively, without trying to source jets and train inexperienced pilots and mechanics.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:35 am

mxaxai wrote:
The 15 Austrian Eurofighters cost 1.7 billion € and have been virtually useless, so far.


The most useful defense weapon is the one that you never use.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:47 am

YIMBY wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
The 15 Austrian Eurofighters cost 1.7 billion € and have been virtually useless, so far.


The most useful defense weapon is the one that you never use.


Before the Eurofighter showed up in Austria, Austrian airspace was violated all the freaking time. After they got them it wasn't.

Not that the Draken where useless, but daylight only....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:29 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Before the Eurofighter showed up in Austria, Austrian airspace was violated all the freaking time. After they got them it wasn't.

Not that the Draken where useless, but daylight only....

Best regards
Thomas


Interesting Tommy but I’m confused as to what difference the Eurofighters make compared to the Draken? An intercept capability is just that and, unless the claim is that the airspace was violated and everyone thumbed their noses at the Draken while they couldn’t with the Eurofighter, it seems to me that airspace violations would have stopped when the Drakens arrived, not the Eurofighters.

This account mentions that the Drakens were able to intercept US aircraft conducting an overflight in 2002

Here in Austria, the tempers started to rise in October after the military's new "Golden Hood" radar system detected a suspicious formation flying over Tyrol. Headquarters in Vienna scrambled two of its old-but-quick fighter jets to intercept the invaders. Minutes later, the fighters located the culprits -- two U.S. Air Force F-117 "Nighthawks," the so-called stealth fighters, hiding in the radar shadow of an air-force tanker plane. As the Austrian fighters approached, the Nighthawk pilots tried to break off. But it was too late. The Austrian pilots shot them -- with a hand-held 35-millimeter camera.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB105121517792169100

The key appears to be that Austria previously lacked sufficient radar coverage and so it was an ability to identify aircraft conducting illegal overflights that made the difference, not a different aircraft.

On that note then, Ireland has indicated a desire to operate a large radar system for that very purpose, even if fighters are not yet in the plan.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:54 am

Ozair wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Before the Eurofighter showed up in Austria, Austrian airspace was violated all the freaking time. After they got them it wasn't.

Not that the Draken where useless, but daylight only....

Best regards
Thomas


Interesting Tommy but I’m confused as to what difference the Eurofighters make compared to the Draken? An intercept capability is just that and, unless the claim is that the airspace was violated and everyone thumbed their noses at the Draken while they couldn’t with the Eurofighter, it seems to me that airspace violations would have stopped when the Drakens arrived, not the Eurofighters.

This account mentions that the Drakens were able to intercept US aircraft conducting an overflight in 2002


In daylight.....
The also snug up behind some USAF F-16, despite trying to avoid the Austrian Response hard and using AWACS support to do so....
It isn´t that the Austrian Airforce was inept, but in Darkness they could just stay at home.

Without the Swedish Datalink finding a target at night was pure luck, the Austrian Airforce knew that and didn´t even keep Drakens ready to scramble, or Pilots, during the night.

Here in Austria, the tempers started to rise in October after the military's new "Golden Hood" radar system detected a suspicious formation flying over Tyrol. Headquarters in Vienna scrambled two of its old-but-quick fighter jets to intercept the invaders. Minutes later, the fighters located the culprits -- two U.S. Air Force F-117 "Nighthawks," the so-called stealth fighters, hiding in the radar shadow of an air-force tanker plane. As the Austrian fighters approached, the Nighthawk pilots tried to break off. But it was too late. The Austrian pilots shot them -- with a hand-held 35-millimeter camera.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB105121517792169100

The key appears to be that Austria previously lacked sufficient radar coverage and so it was an ability to identify aircraft conducting illegal overflights that made the difference, not a different aircraft. .


Austria has had excellent Radar coverage since the early 80, reaching from Berlin to the north, Krakow in the east, San Marino to the south and Bern to the west.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
mxaxai
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:54 am

YIMBY wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
The 15 Austrian Eurofighters cost 1.7 billion € and have been virtually useless, so far.


The most useful defense weapon is the one that you never use.

Only if there is a threat that is mitigated by the posession of these weapons. Austria has no navy - for good reasons.

tommy1808 wrote:
Without the Swedish Datalink finding a target at night was pure luck, the Austrian Airforce knew that and didn´t even keep Drakens ready to scramble, or Pilots, during the night.

The Austrian Eurofighters are not equipped with FLIR imaging and thus can identify targets at night only with diffculty. Even the ministry of defence admits that the fleet is effectively grounded at night, to be used only "in emergencies".

Having or not having the Eurofighters probably makes less of a difference compared to the political changes that moved Austria from two important borders to the center of a peaceful Europe. The move from a politically neutral country to being a member of the EU likely also helped.
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:31 am

tommy1808 wrote:

In daylight.....
The also snug up behind some USAF F-16, despite trying to avoid the Austrian Response hard and using AWACS support to do so....
It isn´t that the Austrian Airforce was inept, but in Darkness they could just stay at home.

Without the Swedish Datalink finding a target at night was pure luck, the Austrian Airforce knew that and didn´t even keep Drakens ready to scramble, or Pilots, during the night.

Thanks for the clarification. Your posts didn't make that clear and made it sound like Austria wasn't doing any air policing prior to the Eurofighter.

tommy1808 wrote:
Austria has had excellent Radar coverage since the early 80, reaching from Berlin to the north, Krakow in the east, San Marino to the south and Bern to the west.

Indeed. The Golden Hat system they installed in the 1980s though is very impressive and has some excellent coverage.

Image

mxaxai wrote:
The Austrian Eurofighters are not equipped with FLIR imaging and thus can identify targets at night only with diffculty. Even the ministry of defence admits that the fleet is effectively grounded at night, to be used only "in emergencies".

I get that impression as well. While I haven't been able to find out how many fast jet pilots they currently have their pilots are being trained in Italy.

On August 16, two Lieutenant pilots of the Austrian Air Force received from the Colonel Alberto Surace, Commander of the Italian Air Force 61st Wing, the pilot licenses following the completion of the L.I.F.T. (Lead in to Fighter Training) which is the last stage of training to become a military pilot.

The training was held by instructor pilots of the 212th Flight Group and lasted about nine months during which the young Austrian pilots, designed to the Eurofighter, have faced hard theoretical and practical activities for a total of approx. 250 flight hours: half carried out on T-346A advanced jet trainer and the others on the simulator.

https://www.blogbeforeflight.net/2018/0 ... ilots.html

Not having a night intercept capability wouldn't be unheard of, I expect that a lot of countries don't have this as a rule and perhaps only run intermittent night coverage.

mxaxai wrote:
Having or not having the Eurofighters probably makes less of a difference compared to the political changes that moved Austria from two important borders to the center of a peaceful Europe. The move from a politically neutral country to being a member of the EU likely also helped.

True. If we consider that a lot of the incursions post cold war were US aircraft transiting to the Middle East it is interesting to note that Ireland, also a militarily neutral country, agreed to US aircraft overflights and refuelling stops as long as none of the aircraft were armed. Hence perhaps an indication of how less concerned Ireland was/is and why they don't have a fast jet capability today.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:38 am

mxaxai wrote:
The Austrian Eurofighters are not equipped with FLIR imaging and thus can identify targets at night only with diffculty. Even the ministry of defence admits that the fleet is effectively grounded at night, to be used only "in emergencies".


the German Eurofighters also have no Pirate, and scramble at night all the time.

Having or not having the Eurofighters probably makes less of a difference compared to the political changes that moved Austria from two important borders to the center of a peaceful Europe. The move from a politically neutral country to being a member of the EU likely also helped.


they have been an EU member in the heart of a a peaceful Europe for decades, the airspace infringements didn´t stop then....

Ozair wrote:
Indeed. The Golden Hat system they installed in the 1980s though is very impressive and has some excellent coverage.
.


Pretty neat to have the right mountains of that. You also know where there first munitions would drop......

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
art
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:32 am

embraer420 wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
there are english who want to invade Ireland again. thats what they doing brexit for.


Maybe there are a couple of extreme cases but the vast majority of British people do not want that. That is not why Brexit is happening, and I highly doubt any future British government will want to invade Ireland. It would be political suicide and a monumental waste of money.


Agreed about Eire. Northern Ireland, however, is open to invasion (if a state can invade part of itself).
 
mxaxai
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:57 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Having or not having the Eurofighters probably makes less of a difference compared to the political changes that moved Austria from two important borders to the center of a peaceful Europe. The move from a politically neutral country to being a member of the EU likely also helped.


they have been an EU member in the heart of a a peaceful Europe for decades, the airspace infringements didn´t stop then....

Slightly OT, but Austria didn't join the EU (or its predecessors) until 1995. The Austrian state treaty post-WW2 did not permit, among other things, a political union with Germany and owning guided air-to-air missiles. These parts were declared obsolete after the fall of the iron curtain, other parts still apply.
 
GDB
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:43 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
The Austrian Eurofighters are not equipped with FLIR imaging and thus can identify targets at night only with diffculty. Even the ministry of defence admits that the fleet is effectively grounded at night, to be used only "in emergencies".


What? Haven't they got radar either then?
Sounds entirely an issue of funding/training, or they just don't want to bother really.
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:27 pm

GDB wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
The Austrian Eurofighters are not equipped with FLIR imaging and thus can identify targets at night only with diffculty. Even the ministry of defence admits that the fleet is effectively grounded at night, to be used only "in emergencies".


What? Haven't they got radar either then?
Sounds entirely an issue of funding/training, or they just don't want to bother really.

They do have radar but not an ability to visually inspect an aircraft at night other than their eyes and not sure if the Austrians fly with NVGs but I doubt it.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:09 am

Ozair wrote:
GDB wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:


What? Haven't they got radar either then?
Sounds entirely an issue of funding/training, or they just don't want to bother really.

They do have radar but not an ability to visually inspect an aircraft at night other than their eyes and not sure if the Austrians fly with NVGs but I doubt it.


With the Draken of course the problem has been that its radar lacked range to detect targets without fairly good ground control, unless it is straight and level stuff like an airliner amiss....

But the Austrial Airforce does in deed not have NVGs, but they figured they need them, and plan to get some* (no idea how good deepl.com will translate): https://www.parlament.gv.at/PAKT/VHG/XX ... ndex.shtml

*they also decided they need Missile Warning, BVR missiles, threat libraries and Pirate, got offers for all of those, ordered 3 of them and cancelled all.

I am pretty sure no country needs an Air Force with those abilities, since there is zero air defense capability included ;-)

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
bennett123
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:32 pm

The idea of the UK invading the ROI is just crazy.

Even the suggestion would be a massive vote loser. Literally millions of UK voters have links.

If the ROI had wanted Jet Fighters they could have bought ex RAF Jaguar, Tornado or now early Typhoon. Given the large number of ex servicemen who are of Irish origin who cut the cost of training as well.
 
art
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:49 pm

bennett123 wrote:
If the ROI had wanted Jet Fighters they could have bought ex RAF Jaguar, Tornado or now early Typhoon. Given the large number of ex servicemen who are of Irish origin who cut the cost of training as well.


Qhat does ROI spend each year on defending its airspace now? What would it cost each year to defend its airspace if UK donated ebough tranche 1 Typhoons for the Irish Air Corps to do the job?

How wpuld pilots be trained up to a level from where they could convert to Typhoon? What would that cost?
 
bennett123
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:23 pm

Firstly, the ROI has NOT shown any interest.

Secondly, the number of people having Irish connections in the RAF is probably greater than most other Air Forces. Therefore probably more Irish Typhoon Pilots/Support Crew than say Irish F35 Pilots/Support Crew.

It is unlikely that Ireland will have the capability to train an initio for some time.

Buying/Operating any advanced fighter will not come cheap.
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:47 pm

art wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
If the ROI had wanted Jet Fighters they could have bought ex RAF Jaguar, Tornado or now early Typhoon. Given the large number of ex servicemen who are of Irish origin who cut the cost of training as well.


What does ROI spend each year on defending its airspace now?

Probably zero. They have no primary radar network so any airspace monitoring is likely done via ATC. No intercept capability so likely zero there as well.

art wrote:
What would it cost each year to defend its airspace if UK donated enough tranche 1 Typhoons for the Irish Air Corps to do the job?

Well Reuters has the following costs for Austria operating their jets,
The continued use of the planes for 30 years - the normal life span of such jets - would cost up to 5 billion euros ($6.24 billion), largely for maintenance.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-airbu ... KKCN1FZ0YY

In that context then, yearly costs are likely to be around the US$175-225 million per year. There would be some significant start-up costs though based around building the infrastructure and overall capability. They probably need at least a couple of primary radars as well though so add the acquisition, infrastructure, manpower and training that all contribute to that as well.

art wrote:
How would pilots be trained up to a level from where they could convert to Typhoon? What would that cost?

Austria does their fast jet conversion via Italy but likely all the rest of the training domestically. ROI could save money on maintaining that training aircraft and infrastructure and get someone else to do all the training and just have the fully trained crews come in to fly their jets. I am sure the UK, Italy, France, US etc would all be happy to train the aircrew, for a cost, and the UK would probably make the most sense.
 
art
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:19 am

@Ozair

Thanks for the info.

My conclusion is that since ROI has given no states cause to view it with enmity (has not been involved in aggressive action against other states) the threat level is so low that it does not need an indienous QRA capability to defend its airspace. Given its proximity to UK and that UK is prepared to provide fighters to cover, for example, Russian Air Force activity, I do not see that considerable expenditure by ROI to police its airspace itself is warranted.
 
art
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:53 am

Deleted
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:31 pm

art wrote:
@Ozair

Thanks for the info.

My conclusion is that since ROI has given no states cause to view it with enmity (has not been involved in aggressive action against other states) the threat level is so low that it does not need an indienous QRA capability to defend its airspace. Given its proximity to UK and that UK is prepared to provide fighters to cover, for example, Russian Air Force activity, I do not see that considerable expenditure by ROI to police its airspace itself is warranted.

Agree 100% and were the same thoughts I had and posted on the first page of the thread.
 
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smithbs
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:59 pm

bennett123 wrote:
The idea of the UK invading the ROI is just crazy.


Well, since Lowry took the British Open, that might be causus belli. ;)
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:18 pm

Well this is an interesting side story to Irish Air Defence capability. Looks like Ireland is seeking to have two pilots trained in Australia, likely on Australian King Airs, after which they will stay on for a 15 month placement with the RAAF to build up knowledge and experience. An interesting choice to go to Australia. There is obviously good relations between the two countries but I would have expected Ireland to choose somewhere a little closer.

Of course the other issue is once the two Irish pilots experience Australia for 18 months they may not want to go home… ;)

Air Corps pilots to train with Royal Australian Air Force


Air Corps pilots are to be sent for training with the Royal Australian Air Force under proposals approved by the Cabinet on Thursday.

The move is aimed at improving capacity for training pilots in the Air Corps, which has been affected by a shortage of experienced flying officers in recent years. The plan was put forward by the Minister of State for Defence Paul Kehoe.

Under the proposals two Air Corps pilots will be sent to Australia. It is envisaged that while there they would qualify as aircraft commanders, and that on return to Ireland they would pass on their knowledge and experience to other Air Corps officers.

Mr Kehoe’s plans would see the Air Corps pilots undertake three or four months training in Australia flying fixed-wing twin-engined aircraft.

The training will be followed by a 15-month placement with the Royal Australian Air Force aimed at allowing the Air Corps pilots to build up flying experience within an operational setting.

It is understood that a draft memorandum of agreement has been prepared between the Department of Defence and the Australian department of defence.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland ... -1.3967541
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:38 pm

That just shows how the Irish DGAF. Like Ozair says, they will be flying aircraft that aren't even in the Irish inventory. Also, it's sad that they can't retain pilots. Maybe if they paid better and offered a bit more "excitement", some might make it a career.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:02 pm

embraer420 wrote:
SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Ok what you need to understand is that ultimately an Air Force is a tool. All those neat fighter planes are not cool toys (despite what neoconservatives think) they’re equipment, tools (incidentally neoconservatives are also tools but that’s a different sense.)

Does Ireland have a job that fits the tool? No. A fighter plane that sits on the tarmac and goes to air shows and nothing else isn’t being useful. Yes it can go “on readiness” but is it a real job, prepared to intercept a known and anticipated threat, or an arbitrary excuse to justify the cool toy?

A fighter jet is not a toy, it will not be useless. Airspace defence is not something you can afford to not take seriously. Also, if we have an Air Force and personnel that are experienced with jets, we can deploy overseas to help train other air forces, or in the future, if the government decide to shift their policy, they will be able to do so quickly and inexpensively, without trying to source jets and train inexperienced pilots and mechanics.


...thanks for repeating what I said?
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
petertenthije
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:14 am

embraer420 wrote:
A fighter jet is not a toy, it will not be useless. Airspace defence is not something you can afford to not take seriously. Also, if we have an Air Force and personnel that are experienced with jets, we can deploy overseas to help train other air forces, or in the future, if the government decide to shift their policy, they will be able to do so quickly and inexpensively, without trying to source jets and train inexperienced pilots and mechanics.

The first argument is mot as there is no credible threat. The only threat might potentially maybe hypothetically at some time in the future be Russia. If they where to attack, you would not stand a chance regardless. Unless you are supported by others, which is where NATO comes in. Better to put the defence money into items where Ireland can make a valuable contribution to NATO/OSCE/UN etc.

As for your second argument: training other air forces. Why would other air forces ask Ireland to train them, considering Ireland has no experience with fast jets themselves. It's more likely that other nations would ask the USAF, RAF, French air force etc. And suppose for a second someone where to ask Ireland. Then the bulk of the Irish air fighter force would deploy to that nation, thus leaving Irish airspace undefended, making argument one even more silly then it already is.
Attamottamotta!
 
YIMBY
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:51 am

petertenthije wrote:
Why would other air forces ask Ireland to train them, considering Ireland has no experience with fast jets themselves.


The airspace in most parts of Europe is very crowded and training among the civil airliners create unnecessary dangers and closing an airspace from commercial traffic create complications, costs and environmental burden. It has been suggested to establish common European training centers in less crowded parts of Europe. E.g. northern Sweden has promoted this without big success: not being a NATO country does not help. I do not know if Ireland would be any better.
 
art
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:41 am

YIMBY wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Why would other air forces ask Ireland to train them, considering Ireland has no experience with fast jets themselves.


The airspace in most parts of Europe is very crowded and training among the civil airliners create unnecessary dangers and closing an airspace from commercial traffic create complications, costs and environmental burden. It has been suggested to establish common European training centers in less crowded parts of Europe. E.g. northern Sweden has promoted this without big success: not being a NATO country does not help. I do not know if Ireland would be any better.


How many training days a year would be lost through bad weather in Ireland? I have read that during WWII many RAF trainees were shipped over to the US to take advantage of better weather than in the UK. Just found a source:

1940 and the world was at war. Europe and Scandinavia had fallen. Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany. Air Chief Marshal Sir Charles Portal had already made the decision that in the event of war, flying training in the United Kingdom should be abandoned. "It would be fraught with problems and danger. The British Isles were cramped, vulnerable and subject to bad weather." Imagine instructing cadets in Tiger Moths in the hostile skies of Britain! RAF training had to be relocated if we were to secure a constant supply of pilots with which to defend our Realm. The wisdom behind this was highlighted on 16 August 1940 when the Luftwaffe in a single attack on RAF Brize Norton destroyed 46 training aircraft.

General "Hap" Arnold, Chief of the US Army Air Corps, supported Britain and largely due to his efforts, flying training began in the USA in early 1941. What he did enabled more than 11,000 pilots to graduate there - about one in six of RAF pilots trained overall during World War Two.


http://www.5bfts.org.uk/articles/histor ... story.aspx
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:17 am

petertenthije wrote:
The first argument is mot as there is no credible threat. The only threat might potentially maybe hypothetically at some time in the future be Russia. If they where to attack, you would not stand a chance regardless. Unless you are supported by others, which is where NATO comes in. Better to put the defence money into items where Ireland can make a valuable contribution to NATO/OSCE/UN etc.

Ireland is not part of NATO. They enjoy the benefits of the protection, but that's it.
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:45 am

art wrote:

How many training days a year would be lost through bad weather in Ireland? I have read that during WWII many RAF trainees were shipped over to the US to take advantage of better weather than in the UK. Just found a source:

1940 and the world was at war. Europe and Scandinavia had fallen. Britain stood alone against Nazi Germany. Air Chief Marshal Sir Charles Portal had already made the decision that in the event of war, flying training in the United Kingdom should be abandoned. "It would be fraught with problems and danger. The British Isles were cramped, vulnerable and subject to bad weather." Imagine instructing cadets in Tiger Moths in the hostile skies of Britain! RAF training had to be relocated if we were to secure a constant supply of pilots with which to defend our Realm. The wisdom behind this was highlighted on 16 August 1940 when the Luftwaffe in a single attack on RAF Brize Norton destroyed 46 training aircraft.

General "Hap" Arnold, Chief of the US Army Air Corps, supported Britain and largely due to his efforts, flying training began in the USA in early 1941. What he did enabled more than 11,000 pilots to graduate there - about one in six of RAF pilots trained overall during World War Two.


http://www.5bfts.org.uk/articles/histor ... story.aspx

The British Commonwealth Air training Plan or Empire Air Training Scheme were the larger training pools and trained not just pilots but all aircrew.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_C ... ining_Plan

Agree though many aircrew were also trained in the US especially after the US entry into the war.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:08 pm

johns624 wrote:
Ireland is not part of NATO. They enjoy the benefits of the protection, but that's it.
I always thought/assumed Ireland was part of NATO.
Attamottamotta!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:10 pm

petertenthije wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Ireland is not part of NATO. They enjoy the benefits of the protection, but that's it.
I always thought/assumed Ireland was part of NATO.


Nope, they are not, neither are Austria, Finland, Sweden for instance.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:18 am

Dutchy wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Ireland is not part of NATO. They enjoy the benefits of the protection, but that's it.
I always thought/assumed Ireland was part of NATO.


Nope, they are not, neither are Austria, Finland, Sweden for instance.
The difference is that those countries have respectable militaries. The Irish Army has 7 light infantry battalions. The Air Corps has no transport capability, not even 1 Hercules or Transall. The Irish Naval Service is barely a coast guard, without any ASW or AAW weapons. They brag about how good their economy is doing, yet can't afford to provide for a decent military. All you hear is "Ireland doesn't have any enemies". I guess none of their oil comes through the Straits of Hormuz and none of their consumer goods comes through the Straits of Malacca.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:09 am

johns624 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
I always thought/assumed Ireland was part of NATO.


Nope, they are not, neither are Austria, Finland, Sweden for instance.
The difference is that those countries have respectable militaries. The Irish Army has 7 light infantry battalions. The Air Corps has no transport capability, not even 1 Hercules or Transall. The Irish Naval Service is barely a coast guard, without any ASW or AAW weapons. They brag about how good their economy is doing, yet can't afford to provide for a decent military. All you hear is "Ireland doesn't have any enemies". I guess none of their oil comes through the Straits of Hormuz and none of their consumer goods comes through the Straits of Malacca.


Their geography is helping them of course. Iceland doesn't have a military to speak of as well, but they are in NATO.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
GDB
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:00 am

Dutchy wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Ireland is not part of NATO. They enjoy the benefits of the protection, but that's it.
I always thought/assumed Ireland was part of NATO.


Nope, they are not, neither are Austria, Finland, Sweden for instance.


And if seriously threatened, NATO would come to their aid. In fact the Swedish forces have been exercising with NATO in more recent times.
 
GDB
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:10 am

johns624 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
I always thought/assumed Ireland was part of NATO.


Nope, they are not, neither are Austria, Finland, Sweden for instance.
The difference is that those countries have respectable militaries. The Irish Army has 7 light infantry battalions. The Air Corps has no transport capability, not even 1 Hercules or Transall. The Irish Naval Service is barely a coast guard, without any ASW or AAW weapons. They brag about how good their economy is doing, yet can't afford to provide for a decent military. All you hear is "Ireland doesn't have any enemies". I guess none of their oil comes through the Straits of Hormuz and none of their consumer goods comes through the Straits of Malacca.


But given those forces levels, what could they bring? They would argue that aside from the very long running UN operations, more recently they have deployed an OPV to the med to aid the efforts in preventing people smuggling there, it is an EU operation so they can say they are doing their bit as a member.
While some may sneer at UN operations, fact is, in a situation where they might have to switch to a combat role, in self defence or otherwise, they would be the ones you'd want.

I just don't see them massively boosting their military budget to add a small amount, from a standing start, in areas such as more heavily armed, longer ranged naval vessels, much less fast jets.
It would be a tough sell in a democratic nation, with no real military/industrial lobby.

I would still argue that the numbers of Irish citizens who serve in the UK forces make more of a contribution.
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:49 am

GDB wrote:
But given those forces levels, what could they bring?
That's my exact point.
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:54 am

Dutchy wrote:
Their geography is helping them of course. Iceland doesn't have a military to speak of as well, but they are in NATO.
They also have a population less than 10% of Ireland's and a GNP only 1/15 of Ireland's. What they do have is an unsinkable aircraft carrier in the middle of the North Atlantic which other NATO forces can use.
 
GDB
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:40 pm

There would be no political will, nor public support, to do the very major spending required even to slowly prepare the Defence Forces to become more heavily armed, longer ranged, somewhat more independent in terms of logistic support.
Manpower, in a wealthy country, with no tradition of large armed forces, would be an major stumbling block. Then all of the facilities.
All this before they start procuring the kit.

Better to, if they want to spend a bit more, concentrate on retaining personnel as much as recruiting, via more exchanges with friendly nations, if they want a couple more OPV's, they don't need to be bristling with weapons, they would need more usefully, a landing deck and hangar for a light/medium chopper.
They might have missed a trick given that some refurbished ex RAF C-130K's have been sold to places like Austria, two of them would have been useful, cheap with nearby support, for transport and SAR support/MR.
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:37 pm

I think that they should focus on one capability and make it their core competency. Even the British did this at their height of Empire. There's a reason it was called the "thin red line". That's because the army was never that large. Most colonies were self-policing with just a backbone of British infantry. Most of the money was put into the Royal Navy which practiced gunboat diplomacy and protected the world's sealanes, much as the USN does now.
Maybe upgrade one or two infantry battalions and make them fast deployable with A400's or C130's. Or, being in the North Atlantic, 2-3 ASW frigates that can dovetail with British, Dutch or Norwegian forces. The thing is, they need to do something, anything. They are sponging off their neighbors.
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:10 am

johns624 wrote:
Maybe upgrade one or two infantry battalions and make them fast deployable with A400's or C130's. Or, being in the North Atlantic, 2-3 ASW frigates that can dovetail with British, Dutch or Norwegian forces. The thing is, they need to do something, anything.

A couple of used C-130s perhaps are justifiable. Funding ASW frigates is a multiple billion dollar expense. Type 26s are going to cost the UK over half a billion pounds each and likely in the end a lot more than that, F100s are above 750 million, so is a FREMM, even an LCS would be upwards of 500 million just to acquire.

After spending all that money what rules of engagement would Ireland, a historically neutral country, have for engaging a submarine? It doesn’t have a large sea transport fleet to defend.

johns624 wrote:
They are sponging off their neighbors.

Do their neighbours actually care? Can you point to a single credible source from the UK claiming that Ireland needs to improve their defence and increase defence spending?
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:20 am

Ozair wrote:

After spending all that money what rules of engagement would Ireland, a historically neutral country, have for engaging a submarine? It doesn’t have a large sea transport fleet to defend.

johns624 wrote:
They are sponging off their neighbors.

Do their neighbours actually care? Can you point to a single credible source from the UK claiming that Ireland needs to improve their defence and increase defence spending?

1. Almost every thing Ireland uses comes by sea. Isn't that enough reason to have a navy? Sweden also has traditionally been neutral and they've had not problem engaging submarines.
2. Whether the UK officially complains or not is a moot point. A country should be able to defend itself. That is one of the major functions of government.
3. Like I've said in the past...a country's defense doesn't start at its own borders.
4. Maybe they can buy a few used T23's in a few years...I doubt it.
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:51 am

johns624 wrote:
Almost every thing Ireland uses comes by sea. Isn't that enough reason to have a navy?

No I don’t think it is. It would be if vessels coming to Ireland were being interdicted and the country was facing shortages of some kind, or Ireland faced the prospect of being blockaded. Both are not happening.

johns624 wrote:
Sweden also has traditionally been neutral and they've had not problem engaging submarines.

Sweden also has a different geographical position that requires it to be more proactive on defence. It still doesn’t have a large navy though, it is essentially a coastal defence force.

johns624 wrote:
Whether the UK officially complains or not is a moot point. A country should be able to defend itself. That is one of the major functions of government.

Well it does in relation to your statement that Ireland are sponging off their neighbours. If national defence is a serious issue for Ireland then politically they will make the decision to increase spending. While there are calls for an increase it politically is a non-issue for most Irish citizens.

johns624 wrote:
Like I've said in the past...a country's defense doesn't start at its own borders.

Ireland is one of those happy places where they can sit pretty knowing other people, including their big neighbour next door, is handling the big issues for them.

johns624 wrote:
Maybe they can buy a few used T23's in a few years...I doubt it.

I doubt it to. No point to acquire a ship that will likely rust out or spend too much time in dock awaiting parts and enough crew properly trained to use it.
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:48 am

Couldn't 99% of the countries in the world use the "we don't have a decent military because we have no immediate threats" argument? Of course, with today's long lead time for weapons procurement, if you wait until there's a viable threat, it's too late. Think about it. Other than the Middle East and maybe China/India/Pakistan, there's no rattling of sabers anywhere.
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:08 am

johns624 wrote:
Couldn't 99% of the countries in the world use the "we don't have a decent military because we have no immediate threats" argument?

I think there are probably quite a few nations that could be justified in not spending money on a military and quite a few, including Ireland, who do.

johns624 wrote:
Of course, with today's long lead time for weapons procurement, if you wait until there's a viable threat, it's too late. Think about it. Other than the Middle East and maybe China/India/Pakistan, there's no rattling of sabers anywhere.

Don’t forget Africa, South America. Decently equipped, or competent, militaries may be used for domestic purposes as well as foreign. Hence a decent number of nations use their military for internal security and rarely consider wider issues. I used Mexico as an example earlier in the thread as it has an air force but no fast jet, any really any jet, airspace intercept capability. The assets it has are almost entirely focused on internal security concerns and not on repelling invaders. Ireland doesn’t have those internal issues so the lack of spending on equipment and training to repel foreign invaders, or even on domestic issues, is understandable.

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