rlwynn
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:15 pm

It is the last thing Ireland Needs to spend hundreds of millions on.
I can drive faster than you
 
embraer420
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:20 pm

Ozair wrote:
The point is Ireland may have the money but they don't care, politically, if the UK/NATO have access to their airspace and it actually is probably really helpful for Ireland. The text and link I quoted further up shows clearly that some type of agreement is in place that permits the UK to overfly Irish airspace for these types of incidents and that means Ireland doesn't have to spend money on fighter jets it will never use the full capability of.

Right, there is an agreement, seemingly made in secret. Sure, we have some assurance of airspace protection but it is against our interests as a neutral country to have a NATO air force effectively control our airspace, never mind the fact that said agreement could easily be politicized and used against us in the future. I get that you believe spending upwards of 100 million euro a year on fighter jets would be unnecessary, but the Irish military budget is almost 700 million euro a year. It used to be more but it was slashed repeatedly, although in 2015 the government pledged to spend more money on defence. A lot of the money is wasted on keeping permanent soldiers on duty for the ground forces, and buying brand new Scania trucks and Mowag APCs, etc. This is actually fairly useless considering we are an island and the only real military issues in the past few years have been illegal fishing and airspace incursions. And there were talks of the government spending hundreds of millions on a brand new replenishment ship for the navy, similar to the HMNZS Canterbury. Why our "navy" needs this is beyond me, it's basically a coast guard. One of the things we actually require in my opinion is a small fleet of armed supersonic jets, and a long range primary radar system. If we think long term and reduce unnecessary costs in other areas of the military it could easily be budgeted for.
 
embraer420
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:24 pm

rlwynn wrote:
It is the last thing Ireland Needs to spend hundreds of millions on.

Is it though? I mean having the ability to tell what is flying over your country and protect your airspace seems pretty important to me.
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:11 pm

embraer420 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
The point is Ireland may have the money but they don't care, politically, if the UK/NATO have access to their airspace and it actually is probably really helpful for Ireland. The text and link I quoted further up shows clearly that some type of agreement is in place that permits the UK to overfly Irish airspace for these types of incidents and that means Ireland doesn't have to spend money on fighter jets it will never use the full capability of.

Right, there is an agreement, seemingly made in secret. Sure, we have some assurance of airspace protection but it is against our interests as a neutral country to have a NATO air force effectively control our airspace, never mind the fact that said agreement could easily be politicized and used against us in the future.

It appears that the agreement is with the UK and not NATO which is understandable in the context of the long standing good relations between the nations. Is it really against the interests of Ireland to have the UK occasionally overfly them for the stated purposes? Ireland as already stated are also a NATO Partner for Peace which means they do cooperate with NATO on some matters and work on interoperability. The occasional airspace overfly to assist with maintaining Irish airspace doesn’t seem to be an issue.

As for politicising the issue, the UK hasn’t to date, why would it do so now. Even if it did, what is the worst that happens, Ireland says no more and the UK says ok look after yourself…

embraer420 wrote:
I get that you believe spending upwards of 100 million euro a year on fighter jets would be unnecessary, but the Irish military budget is almost 700 million euro a year. It used to be more but it was slashed repeatedly, although in 2015 the government pledged to spend more money on defence. A lot of the money is wasted on keeping permanent soldiers on duty for the ground forces, and buying brand new Scania trucks and Mowag APCs, etc. This is actually fairly useless considering we are an island and the only real military issues in the past few years have been illegal fishing and airspace incursions.

Ireland is an excellent contributor to UN peacekeeping missions. Some info for you,
A hallmark of Ireland’s membership of the UN is our unbroken and distinguished involvement in UN peacekeeping. We have had a continuous presence in UN peacekeeping since our first deployment in 1958. In this time we have provided a Head of a UN Mission on twelve occasions, a remarkable achievement for a small country.
As of June 2014, there are 361 Irish Defence Forces personnel serving overseas on UN peacekeeping missions. This makes us the sixth largest EU troop contributor to UN peacekeeping operations. Ireland’s deployments are mainly in the Middle East - Lebanon and the Golan Heights - and in Africa. We have 5 specialists deployed with the UN in South Sudan who are providing mine action training to the South Sudanese police.

https://www.dfa.ie/pmun/newyork/peace-a ... cekeeping/

That is an excellent reason for Ireland to spend money on ground troops and equipment, because those are used in support of global peacekeeping efforts. Clearly the UN values the contribution that Ireland makes in that area and it is an excellent political tool for the Irish Government.

embraer420 wrote:
And there were talks of the government spending hundreds of millions on a brand new replenishment ship for the navy, similar to the HMNZS Canterbury. Why our "navy" needs this is beyond me, it's basically a coast guard. One of the things we actually require in my opinion is a small fleet of armed supersonic jets, and a long range primary radar system. If we think long term and reduce unnecessary costs in other areas of the military it could easily be budgeted for.

No one doubts that Ireland could afford it, the question is only about whether it would be a worthwhile investment. You think it would be and that is great, you are welcome to your opinion and that opinion has created this really interesting thread which I appreciate. I don’t think they need it and, as mentioned by myself and others, there are many smaller nations around the world who get by without a fast jet capability just fine.
 
Spar
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:29 pm

embraer420 wrote:
[money is wasted on keeping permanent soldiers on duty for the ground forces, and buying brand new Scania trucks and Mowag APCs, etc. This is actually fairly useless considering we are an island and the only real military issues in the past few years have been illegal fishing and airspace incursions.
Maintaining physical control of the nation is the first order of business for any government. Having a second line of defense behind the police is absolutely mandatory. Whoever flies overhead is meaningless, it's when they land that a national threat comes into play.
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:59 pm

So it's more important that Ireland has new equipment for ground forces for UN Peacekeeping? Is that because the UN pays for peacekeeping operations? Isn't it more important to secure your own country before worrying about others? If Ireland relies on a potential foreign belligerent to control its skies, is it really neutral? Sweden has always stayed neutral, but they know how to enforce it. Ireland is like the little kid who grew up into an adult but still wants its older brother to defend it. There's another country exactly like that. Just about the same population, also.
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:22 am

johns624 wrote:
So it's more important that Ireland has new equipment for ground forces for UN Peacekeeping? Is that because the UN pays for peacekeeping operations? Isn't it more important to secure your own country before worrying about others?

Ireland isn’t secure? You would think the US would not allow travellers to pass US customs and immigration out of Ireland if the security of the country was such a concern.

An interesting comparison, Mexico can’t keep two F-5Es in service despite having a population 26 times larger and an economy over four times the size with probably far more reasons to operate a fast jet fleet. They have other issues to deal with and therefore operate a fleet of aircraft that suit their requirements. Ireland doesn’t have those same domestic issues, nor any issues with air hijacking or air based terrorism and therefore operate a fleet of aircraft based on their requirements.
johns624 wrote:
If Ireland relies on a potential foreign belligerent to control its skies, is it really neutral? Sweden has always stayed neutral, but they know how to enforce it. Ireland is like the little kid who grew up into an adult but still wants its older brother to defend it. There's another country exactly like that. Just about the same population, also.

How is Ireland opening up their airspace to a foreign belligerent given they have an agreement with the UK to operate over their airspace when necessary? Unless you consider that Ireland views the UK as a foreign belligerent…

Ireland is the UK’s fifth largest export market and imports more from the UK than any other country. The UK accounts for 30% of imports into Ireland. In 2014, exports of goods and services from the UK to Ireland totalled £27.86 billion.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... to-ireland

Clearly things aren’t belligerent between the two nations.
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:33 am

Ozair wrote:
How is Ireland opening up their airspace to a foreign belligerent given they have an agreement with the UK to operate over their airspace when necessary? Unless you consider that Ireland views the UK as a foreign belligerent…
Clearly things aren’t belligerent between the two nations.

I guess that I didn't make myself clear. The UK is not the foreign belligerent. However, if the UK got into an "altercation", which could happen, then them patrolling Irish airspace would make Ireland no longer neutral.
From your name, I take it that you are from Australia. If you are, you have the same situation with New Zealand. You're their big protector.
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:56 am

The very fact that Ireland has an agreement with the UK for air defense shows that they need air defense.
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:01 am

johns624 wrote:
I guess that I didn't make myself clear. The UK is not the foreign belligerent. However, if the UK got into an "altercation", which could happen, then them patrolling Irish airspace would make Ireland no longer neutral.

A spat with the UK is certainly possible but as I stated earlier, if that was really the case Ireland can just say don’t fly over us anymore and go ahead and fund their own fast jets (which would probably end up being trained by the UK anyway…). I think the likelihood of an altercation happening is very low, irrespective of how relations between the UK and the EU change over the next few months.

johns624 wrote:
From your name, I take it that you are from Australia. If you are, you have the same situation with New Zealand. You're their big protector.

Yes from Australia but I don’t consider us NZ’s big protector. Who are we protecting them from? If NZ had an airliner hijacking issue they are too far away for Australian Military jets to do anything. NZ made the decision they didn’t need to spend money on fast jets based on the capability, intent and overall threat of the region. Ireland has made the same decision.
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:03 am

johns624 wrote:
The very fact that Ireland has an agreement with the UK for air defense shows that they need air defense.

Agree 100% that they need an ability to patrol their airspace but the agreement with the UK fulfils that need. Aircraft hijackings are lower today at nearly any time since aviation began and Russian jets have been flying around Ireland for the last 50 years without Ireland requiring a fast jet force to intercept them.

What has changed today to make this now a requirement?
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:17 am

Ozair, I'm not just talking about fast jets, but general military preparedness. In your case, you are upgrading your navy by replacing your ANZAC class frigates with T26s. Yet, NZ is keeping their old ANZACs. They will soon be obsolescent and not be able to operate with the RAN. I've read that the factory Chinese fishing fleets are intruding on NZs EEZ and there's not much that they can do about it.
Once again, I'm not talking about the UK being belligerent against Ireland. Here is a scenario from a few years ago. Russia was getting a little bit pushy about the Baltic republics before the West stood up to him after the Ukrainian problem. What if he tried to "unite" them with Russia and NATO became involved? Ireland couldn't claim neutrality because the RAF was defending them.
 
Ozair
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:53 am

johns624 wrote:
Ozair, I'm not just talking about fast jets, but general military preparedness. In your case, you are upgrading your navy by replacing your ANZAC class frigates with T26s. Yet, NZ is keeping their old ANZACs. They will soon be obsolescent and not be able to operate with the RAN. I've read that the factory Chinese fishing fleets are intruding on NZs EEZ and there's not much that they can do about it.

Those are two different issues though. For starters NZ’s ANZACS will be capable of what NZ require them to do for the foreseeable future and still have sufficient life in them. NZ doesn’t require a top end ASW/AAW capability that the RAN will acquire with the T26s.

As for the Chinese fishing fleet, how NZ combats them is their issue. Australia is acquiring a fleet of OPVs that will replace the Armidales for this task. This is inconsequential to the debate though. General military preparedness wouldn’t prevent a nation from invading New Zealand (good luck to anyone who wants to fight a war at those distances…) and the same with Ireland.

Both countries rely on the international system of law to prevent that type of thing happening. Both are islands and have the advantage of being geographically displaced away from threats and close to stable partners. Does that mean they take advantage of those partners, probably. Does that really matter? I don’t think so. Are the UK and Australia screaming for Ireland and NZ respectively to arm themselves? Not at all.

johns624 wrote:
Once again, I'm not talking about the UK being belligerent against Ireland. Here is a scenario from a few years ago. Russia was getting a little bit pushy about the Baltic republics before the West stood up to him after the Ukrainian problem. What if he tried to "unite" them with Russia and NATO became involved? Ireland couldn't claim neutrality because the RAF was defending them.

Ireland declaring neutrality but having the UK monitor their airspace when necessary isn’t going to push Russia into nuking Dublin. We aren’t talking about a daily overflight here but infrequent often yearly events. Ireland has been providing a stopping/refuelling point for US troops to the Middle East since 1991. It hasn’t created a terrorism threat of significance to them, nor has it created international angst.

Let’s not play up a threat that is very low as a means to justify a fleet of expensive aircraft Ireland really doesn’t need.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:55 am

Ozair wrote:
johns624 wrote:
The very fact that Ireland has an agreement with the UK for air defense shows that they need air defense.

Agree 100% that they need an ability to patrol their airspace but the agreement with the UK fulfils that need. Aircraft hijackings are lower today at nearly any time since aviation began and Russian jets have been flying around Ireland for the last 50 years without Ireland requiring a fast jet force to intercept them.

What has changed today to make this now a requirement?


Why does anyone else then need air force?

Defense is not planned in 20 days but 20 years perspective. Substantial unpredictable changes are possible.

Just note that the future PM of UK does not hide his intention to break the peace agreement signed by the Republic of Ireland, UK, and some others. He is prepared to "build a wall" between Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. These are symbolically important issues. While wise people would not care and do business as usual, all sides have people that are more impulsive, which may lead to whatever escalation.

There are also forces within EU that want to break the whole union. In the worst case Europe will return to the era of competing independent countries mistrusting each others. Outside Europe there are nations or non-ethnic tribes - some of them without a country - that might have interest to invade any unprotected livable area. Some governments might want to extort Ireland to be their vassal and might do punishment strikes if Ireland would not obey their orders.

Because of this the Republic of Ireland would need a minimum self-defense capacity which includes ability to control its territory, territorial waters and airspace. The military budget of 0,7 Billion euro (0,2 % of GNP) would allow a state-of-art radar system and the maintenance of a symbolic air force, if properly balanced, though new fighters above trainers would need an additional one-off funding of 2 billion € or so.

There are too many other countries that are overspending in military equipment, but that is another issue.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:08 am

mxaxai wrote:
Some need it for personal pride and because they can afford it (Switzerland).


Since Swiss neutrality isn't violated the way Austrian neutrality has been whenever NATO countries chose to do it, I'd say they have real use of their Air Force.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
VSMUT
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:23 am

Who in their right minds would dream of threatening Ireland anyway? How many centuries did they lead that long and bloody insurgency against the British? Home grown insurgency and terrorism is still an issue, Brexit may even make it flare up again.

What would an aggressor get from intervening? Endless amounts of peat bog?

The Russians would never dream of touching such a beehive.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:18 am

Raise the corporate tax to some sensible level and you'll be able to afford shiny jets.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:36 am

there are english who want to invade Ireland again. thats what they doing brexit for.
 
embraer420
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:52 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
there are english who want to invade Ireland again. thats what they doing brexit for.

Maybe there are a couple of extreme cases but the vast majority of British people do not want that. That is not why Brexit is happening, and I highly doubt any future British government will want to invade Ireland. It would be political suicide and a monumental waste of money.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:57 pm

i thought it was a joke like about martians. what are you from?
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:09 pm

johns624 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Meh why waste the finances on an airforce, NZ doesn’t have one, you can also argue that many euro countries also don’t need them.
Yet, many complain that the US shouldn't be the world's policeman. That's fine with me. What people should remember is that a country's defense and interests don't always stop at the border. The whole "we don't need defense because we're neutral" while at the same time saying "our next door neighbor will protect us" thing just sounds asinine. What it really means is "we're too cheap or naïve to know that we have to defend ourselves". Being "neutral" really helped Belgium and the Netherlands in 1940.


Who does Ireland need to defend themselves against? Anyone messing with them will have had to go through the UK first, talk about a pointless endeavour.

Ireland puts boots on the ground for the UN, which is all they need to do.

You need to read a little bit more about WW2, the Netherlands mobilised in 1939 and put up a much resistance as they could but when they realised there would be no help from the UK or France they capitulated. The Belgians mobilised 22 divisions in 1939, over 600,000 men, they didn't do nothing, and capitulated after King Leopold surrendered against the advise of his govt, it pissed of Churchill quite a bit.

The US acts as the world's policeman because it wants to act as the world's policeman, a lot of the world would rather you stayed home and stopped meddling.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:16 pm

johns624 wrote:
Ozair, I'm not just talking about fast jets, but general military preparedness. In your case, you are upgrading your navy by replacing your ANZAC class frigates with T26s. Yet, NZ is keeping their old ANZACs. They will soon be obsolescent and not be able to operate with the RAN. I've read that the factory Chinese fishing fleets are intruding on NZs EEZ and there's not much that they can do about it.
Once again, I'm not talking about the UK being belligerent against Ireland. Here is a scenario from a few years ago. Russia was getting a little bit pushy about the Baltic republics before the West stood up to him after the Ukrainian problem. What if he tried to "unite" them with Russia and NATO became involved? Ireland couldn't claim neutrality because the RAF was defending them.


The NZ ANZAC's are currently going through a rather costly SLEP. You also realise that the Australians are also in the midst of upgrading there existing ANZAC's, they will be in service for many more years before they are replaced by the Type 26 Hunter class. What's also interesting is the Aussie ANZAC's upgrade has added so much top weight they are now slower and roll like a pig in mud, the NZ ANZAC's are faster and more seaworthy in this respect and with the new upgrade completed just as capable.

The RNZN is constantly chasing aways Chinese trawlers, they even bord them, we do have offshore patrol vessels as well.

Image

http://tangentlink.com/wp-content/uploa ... p-RNZN.pdf
 
embraer420
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:21 pm

Spar wrote:
embraer420 wrote:
[money is wasted on keeping permanent soldiers on duty for the ground forces, and buying brand new Scania trucks and Mowag APCs, etc. This is actually fairly useless considering we are an island and the only real military issues in the past few years have been illegal fishing and airspace incursions.
Maintaining physical control of the nation is the first order of business for any government. Having a second line of defense behind the police is absolutely mandatory. Whoever flies overhead is meaningless, it's when they land that a national threat comes into play.


I agree that it's vital to maintain a ground force, but really do we need that many soldiers on permanent duty? Most of their work here is guarding cash transfers (which they could still do, or this role could be taken over by armed police or armed private security contractors) and flood response, which could be done by reserves and civil defence. And there are pieces of equipment we could get rid of, like those ridiculous scorpion tankettes.

And you say that whoever flies overhead is meaningless? We shouldn't care about aerial threats, because, you know, no one can do damage unless they land, right? :roll:
 
embraer420
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:48 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
i thought it was a joke like about martians. what are you from?

Blackrock
 
embraer420
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:54 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Who does Ireland need to defend themselves against? Anyone messing with them will have had to go through the UK first, talk about a pointless endeavour.

Ireland puts boots on the ground for the UN, which is all they need to do.



Why does any country need to maintain an air force? Why does Switzerland have one? Or Austria? They're neutral and they're surrounded by friendly neighbours.

And do we need to have that many soldiers just for United Nations peacekeeping? Is that really more important than a critical aspect of our own national security?
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:06 pm

Austria only has a handful of Eurofighters for air policing, which realistically they don’t need. The Swiss have the money and they can do what they like, the Irish also have the money but they choose to spend it more wisely on more important things than fast jets which they will never use. If there was enough Irish citizens who wanted fast jets and it became a political issue that might change but luckily Irish people are a tad more sensible.
 
GDB
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:30 pm

embraer420 wrote:
GDB wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

They are not in NATO ;)


But Air Policing, if needed, would not be prevented by that. They'd be more pragmatic.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the defence posture of the Republic Of Ireland, that has generated this thread.
The role of their Defence Forces is mainly civil protection, including SAR, maritime policing, secure transport for state officials, the main threat is and has always been from what the Eire government call subversives.

Which includes every terrorist organisation active within or near the Irish State, this included, including throughout the troubles, the Provisional IRA. Who in turn labelled the Eire government as the 'shit state', their ultimate goal of the whole of the island of Ireland being a kind of damp Cuba, with no place for the democratic Eire government in that.

As a neutral nation, Ireland has long provided support in UN peacekeeping operations, including the more dangerous ones, a few years ago a rather good film was made about Irish troops having to fight for their lives in the Congo of the early 1960's, based on real event.
Considering all of this, where do expensive fast jets and SAM's fit in to all this?


You say there is a misunderstanding about the country's defence policy, but surely the defence policy should include monitoring and responding to security threats? You've also mentioned that the main threat is from terrorist organisations. If terrorists really wanted to do damage to the country, they could hijack or otherwise gain use of an aircraft and crash it into a busy or important location. Because that's something the state is not prepared for. Also, other threats do exist, airspace incursions can occur and have occurred multiple times.

I don't see how acquiring long range radar and fighter jets would affect our neutrality or our ability to participate in UN peacekeeping operations. And I wasn't advocating the SAM's, just a proper radar system and a couple of fast jets, not even particularly expensive ones. That's all we need.


The terrorists the Irish state have had to deal with, some of whom are still active and are most likely be the sort encountered in future, are not really in to this whole suicide bombing thing, in fact they are very self preservation orientated.
Even if some Islamist fanatics did enter Ireland, it's not like they could plan and execute a 9/11 style attack, hard to see that anywhere really. If they have an aircraft approaching Ireland, the RAF will scramble, since they have been doing this, for years, one assumes arrangements have been made between the UK and Ireland in respect to command and control if the situation got to a point where the RAF would have to open fire.

If Ireland really wanted an independent interception capability, it would have to be a small number of second hand aircraft, since usually a jet trainer still would not be useful, lacking in range, endurance, radar performance, things you need when shadowing an irritating Russian bomber or intercepting a suspect civil aircraft. Even RAF Typhoons sometimes have to do AAR during these kind of sorties.

But would even a very limited force of a few 2nd hand, say F-16's, or early model Gripens, really be a good use of valuable defence Euro's? Ireland would have to seriously expand it's defence budget, with the need to train pilots and ground crew plus all the other infrastructure. Then the running costs.
When for much less, maybe a couple more OPV's, few more choppers, a modest expansion of manpower, including special operations, perhaps a couple of medium level UAV's, for both maritime and overland operations.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:43 pm

embraer420 wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
i thought it was a joke like about martians. what are you from?

Blackrock

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Rock

What exactly? I wonder living in moscow which blackrock is "default"
 
mxaxai
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:43 pm

embraer420 wrote:
And do we need to have that many soldiers just for United Nations peacekeeping? Is that really more important than a critical aspect of our own national security?

Political ties can be much more valuable than a large military force. Look how Iceland won the "cod wars". A stable political climate - thanks to UN peacekeeping - further reduces the need for a strong own miitary.

Also, the vast majority of terrorist attacks has happened on the ground. And the only way to safely capture terrorist leaders (without civilian casualties) is with boots on the ground. Soldiers can be a valuable force to protect key assets or locations, to support the police (if permitted) or to help during natural disasters. Fast jets - not so much.
 
embraer420
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:28 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Austria only has a handful of Eurofighters for air policing, which realistically they don’t need. The Swiss have the money and they can do what they like, the Irish also have the money but they choose to spend it more wisely on more important things than fast jets which they will never use. If there was enough Irish citizens who wanted fast jets and it became a political issue that might change but luckily Irish people are a tad more sensible.

Well, I think they are sensible countries who have made a good investment in national defence. Obviously they have invested in good public transport and healthcare as well, so they can easily justify buying these jets. If Ireland manages to iron out these problems, in 5 or 6 years time they could look into fighters. They could shop around and get a good deal, there are plenty of good manufacturers, like KAI, HAL, Saab, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex etc. who could offer high quality cheap new aircraft. Alternatively we could look into second hand aircraft such as F-16s or F-5s.
 
embraer420
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:29 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
embraer420 wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
i thought it was a joke like about martians. what are you from?

Blackrock

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Rock

What exactly? I wonder living in moscow which blackrock is "default"

Dublin, Ireland. Sorry I didn't specify :smile:
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:59 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
we do have offshore patrol vessels as well.

Yeah, a whole two. I saw them both docked in Devonport the last time I was there. They also have several IPVs that also remain docked, because they are useless. It's a common known fact that you need at least 3 vessels to make sure that one is always ready for sea.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:49 pm

embraer420 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Austria only has a handful of Eurofighters for air policing, which realistically they don’t need. The Swiss have the money and they can do what they like, the Irish also have the money but they choose to spend it more wisely on more important things than fast jets which they will never use. If there was enough Irish citizens who wanted fast jets and it became a political issue that might change but luckily Irish people are a tad more sensible.

Well, I think they are sensible countries who have made a good investment in national defence. Obviously they have invested in good public transport and healthcare as well, so they can easily justify buying these jets. If Ireland manages to iron out these problems, in 5 or 6 years time they could look into fighters. They could shop around and get a good deal, there are plenty of good manufacturers, like KAI, HAL, Saab, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex etc. who could offer high quality cheap new aircraft. Alternatively we could look into second hand aircraft such as F-16s or F-5s.

The 15 Austrian Eurofighters cost 1.7 billion € and have been virtually useless, so far. These are Tranche 1 jets, and have nearly no ground attack capability. Several other "optional" equipments were not ordered either to save money, including no self-defence system and no infrared identification system. This renders them useless for intercepts at night. I don't think they even bought radar-guided missiles, only the AIM-9 and IRIS-T.

The Austrian jets (Saab 35) could have seen some action during the Yugoslavian wars but did not intercept the stray MiG-21's in Austrian airspace.

The additional cost for upgrades and maintenance of the Austrian fleet is expected to be ~ 2.4 billion € until 2029. Compare the acquisition and maintenance for 18 Gripens (2.7 billion €) or 18 F-16s (3.0 billion €). The fleet is too small to provide effective training; it was hoped that the Gripen or F-16 could replace the current light jet fleet (Saab 105) and the Eurofighters simultaneously but any decision is postponed considering the political situation in Austria.

https://www.salzburg24.at/news/oesterre ... g-62868727
https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schweiz/ ... -127941998

To sum up:
- You need at least 18 fast jets to provide continuous readiness and training
- You need at least 10 light jets or fast props for training
- The total cost is at least 200 million € per year

In other words, do you think a 30 % increase in defense spending for fast jets is a worthwhile investment for Ireland? For a fleet that would be virtually useless for the foreseeable time?
 
embraer420
Topic Author
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:26 pm

mxaxai wrote:
The 15 Austrian Eurofighters cost 1.7 billion € and have been virtually useless, so far. These are Tranche 1 jets, and have nearly no ground attack capability. Several other "optional" equipments were not ordered either to save money, including no self-defence system and no infrared identification system. This renders them useless for intercepts at night. I don't think they even bought radar-guided missiles, only the AIM-9 and IRIS-T.

Wow, they really tried to cut corners with the Typhoons, I didn't realise that.


mxaxai wrote:
The additional cost for upgrades and maintenance of the Austrian fleet is expected to be ~ 2.4 billion € until 2029. Compare the acquisition and maintenance for 18 Gripens (2.7 billion €) or 18 F-16s (3.0 billion €). The fleet is too small to provide effective training; it was hoped that the Gripen or F-16 could replace the current light jet fleet (Saab 105) and the Eurofighters simultaneously but any decision is postponed considering the political situation in Austria.

https://www.salzburg24.at/news/oesterre ... g-62868727
https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schweiz/ ... -127941998

To sum up:
- You need at least 18 fast jets to provide continuous readiness and training
- You need at least 10 light jets or fast props for training
- The total cost is at least 200 million € per year

In other words, do you think a 30 % increase in defense spending for fast jets is a worthwhile investment for Ireland? For a fleet that would be virtually useless for the foreseeable time?


Yeah, I think it would be justified. Not in the immediate future, apart from the long range search radar, but in five years or so they could start procuring jets. I don't think they would be "completely useless",(If anything the PC-9s are useless at the moment), the RAF cover could be politicized and thus limits the Irish government's ability to gain concessions in a negotiation. And as I have mentioned multiple times, the Royal Air Force is involved in military operations, the UK is not neutral, they are a NATO member. Ireland is a member of the "Partnership for Peace", but so is the Russian Federation, so you can decide for yourself if that means anything.

Not only would jets allow us to patrol our airspace and respond to threats ourselves, it would give us experienced jet pilots, which are an asset in themselves. They would be invaluable if Ireland ever decided to change their military policy in the future as a result of a serious threat or otherwise.
 
Spar
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:48 pm

embraer420 wrote:
Not only would jets allow us to patrol our airspace and respond to threats ourselves, it would give us experienced jet pilots, which are an asset in themselves. They would be invaluable if Ireland ever decided to change their military policy in the future as a result of a serious threat or otherwise.

So you see fast jets as a step away from neutrality. That appears to provide the context for this thread.
 
embraer420
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:54 pm

Spar wrote:
embraer420 wrote:
Not only would jets allow us to patrol our airspace and respond to threats ourselves, it would give us experienced jet pilots, which are an asset in themselves. They would be invaluable if Ireland ever decided to change their military policy in the future as a result of a serious threat or otherwise.

So you see fast jets as a step away from neutrality. That appears to provide the context for this thread.


Not necessarily, and certainly not anytime soon. It pays to be prepared, and Ireland would have more tools under their belt in the future. Even if the government never decide to do anything else with the jets, they will be useful for airspace defence and possibly land and sea defence also.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:33 pm

embraer420 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Austria only has a handful of Eurofighters for air policing, which realistically they don’t need. The Swiss have the money and they can do what they like, the Irish also have the money but they choose to spend it more wisely on more important things than fast jets which they will never use. If there was enough Irish citizens who wanted fast jets and it became a political issue that might change but luckily Irish people are a tad more sensible.

Well, I think they are sensible countries who have made a good investment in national defence. Obviously they have invested in good public transport and healthcare as well, so they can easily justify buying these jets. If Ireland manages to iron out these problems, in 5 or 6 years time they could look into fighters. They could shop around and get a good deal, there are plenty of good manufacturers, like KAI, HAL, Saab, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex etc. who could offer high quality cheap new aircraft. Alternatively we could look into second hand aircraft such as F-16s or F-5s.


Good grief I think I you’re a fighter fanboy, Ireland has no need of a combat airforce, if they did they would have one, it’s that simple.
 
embraer420
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:51 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
embraer420 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Austria only has a handful of Eurofighters for air policing, which realistically they don’t need. The Swiss have the money and they can do what they like, the Irish also have the money but they choose to spend it more wisely on more important things than fast jets which they will never use. If there was enough Irish citizens who wanted fast jets and it became a political issue that might change but luckily Irish people are a tad more sensible.

Well, I think they are sensible countries who have made a good investment in national defence. Obviously they have invested in good public transport and healthcare as well, so they can easily justify buying these jets. If Ireland manages to iron out these problems, in 5 or 6 years time they could look into fighters. They could shop around and get a good deal, there are plenty of good manufacturers, like KAI, HAL, Saab, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex etc. who could offer high quality cheap new aircraft. Alternatively we could look into second hand aircraft such as F-16s or F-5s.


Good grief I think I you’re a fighter fanboy, Ireland has no need of a combat airforce, if they did they would have one, it’s that simple.


A "fighter fanboy?" :lol: Ireland needs a lot of things that they don't have, including a metro system in Dublin for example.
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:11 pm

The reason that countries like Ireland and New Zealand don't "need" decent armed forces is because the policemen of the world step up and keep the peace. They realize that a country's security doesn't stop at its borders. I'm sure Ireland gets their oil because several other countries are keeping the Straits of Hormuz open and many of their consumer products because others have anti-piracy operations in the Indian Ocean and Straits of Malacca.
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:43 am

Ozair wrote:
embraer420 wrote:
Yes, I get that the threat has lessened post-9/11, what with increased security and all, but you can't rule it out.

Agree you can’t rule it out but the likelihood of an incident occurring is low, so that creates a strong argument about whether the investment in a jet capability solely for interception is worth it.

embraer420 wrote:
There is a reason other countries have procedures in place to deal with this situation, and just because Ireland is relatively small and "neutral" doesn't mean it can't happen here.

Again agree but those countries already have invested in the capability for not only interception but often other reasons, such as national defence. Ireland doesn’t have a lot of justification for the other reasons to maintain a fighter fleet.

New Zealand is a similar example albeit with less congested airspace. It no longer maintains a fighter jet fleet. It simply cannot justify the cost based on the likelihood of an incident occurring.

embraer420 wrote:
We have fairly busy airspace and any potential hijacker who's done twenty minutes of research would realise that we're a weak spot. The same way the Russian AF knew that we were a weak spot and flew through our airspace multiple times to mess with us and see what would happen.

I don’t see how Ireland is a weak spot. Security is the same in Ireland as other locations so choosing Ireland, which is somewhat devoid of targets of political/terror significance, seems unlikely.

As for the Russians, they are not interesting in Ireland, their use of Irish airspace would have been to test the UK/NATO response to that move, not how the Irish Government/Military would react.
The difference with New Zealand is that we are too far away for any kind of hijacking (save a domestic one or an Aussie one and Aussie of course have jets). We are even further away from any Islamic country (which is the most likely source). Domestic is of course possible but highly unlikely. Compare this to Ireland where it has dozens of countries within an hour or so flight including parts of Africa. Also has the previously mentioned Russian threat too.
NZ does have some capability with missile armed Seasprite helos as well as P-3s (soon to be P-8s).
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
GDB
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:31 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
there are english who want to invade Ireland again. thats what they doing brexit for.


While I loathe Brexit, hope to see it at least put to a vote of some kind, would gladly see those pushing an increasingly extreme and destructive version of it (NOT voted for and denied by them in 2016) get the traditional old English treatment of being put in the stocks, trust me, even they do not want to invade Ireland.
Got anything remotely sensible or informed to say?

The reason i mentioned a modest expansion of manpower, it would be do-able, since there are plenty of Irishman serving in the UK armed forces. In fact, the proportion of Irish ctizens in the British Army in the highest since WW2. Irish citizens can join the UK armed forces.
Which also makes Armadillo's reply more risible.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:35 am

Zkpilot wrote:
We are even further away from any Islamic country (which is the most likely source). Domestic is of course possible but highly unlikely. Compare this to Ireland where it has dozens of countries within an hour or so flight including parts of Africa.

A short look at the map suggests that there are only 4 countries reachable within an hour from Ireland. Flights from all of them basically require transit through British airspace.
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:28 am

GDB wrote:

The reason i mentioned a modest expansion of manpower, it would be do-able, since there are plenty of Irishman serving in the UK armed forces. In fact, the proportion of Irish ctizens in the British Army in the highest since WW2. Irish citizens can join the UK armed forces.
Maybe the problem is that the Irish forces don't provide enough "excitement"? The military is made up mainly of young men who think they'll live forever and want to prove something. In the British Army, they have more of a chance of different postings and doing what they're paid for.
 
GDB
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:09 pm

johns624 wrote:
GDB wrote:

The reason i mentioned a modest expansion of manpower, it would be do-able, since there are plenty of Irishman serving in the UK armed forces. In fact, the proportion of Irish ctizens in the British Army in the highest since WW2. Irish citizens can join the UK armed forces.
Maybe the problem is that the Irish forces don't provide enough "excitement"? The military is made up mainly of young men who think they'll live forever and want to prove something. In the British Army, they have more of a chance of different postings and doing what they're paid for.


That's what I understand, more travel/range of deployments, more rapid promotion, though some will also be ex Irish Defence Forces too.
But I don't think that would make a modest expansion more difficult, the Defence Forces are likely have many more applications for recruitment than they can fill.
 
embraer420
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:24 pm

Zkpilot wrote:
The difference with New Zealand is that we are too far away for any kind of hijacking (save a domestic one or an Aussie one and Aussie of course have jets). We are even further away from any Islamic country (which is the most likely source). Domestic is of course possible but highly unlikely. Compare this to Ireland where it has dozens of countries within an hour or so flight including parts of Africa. Also has the previously mentioned Russian threat too.
NZ does have some capability with missile armed Seasprite helos as well as P-3s (soon to be P-8s).


Ireland has much busier airspace than New Zealand. There is more likelihood of an incident happening here. However New Zealand is not immune to hijacking, they can happen on any flight including the Ultra-long hauls to NZ from the Middle East or East Asia. Im not sure if a flight originating in a Muslim country will be more susceptible to hijacking, and the nearest Muslim countries to Ireland would be about three hours away at least.
 
johns624
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:29 pm

GDB wrote:
johns624 wrote:
GDB wrote:

The reason i mentioned a modest expansion of manpower, it would be do-able, since there are plenty of Irishman serving in the UK armed forces. In fact, the proportion of Irish ctizens in the British Army in the highest since WW2. Irish citizens can join the UK armed forces.
Maybe the problem is that the Irish forces don't provide enough "excitement"? The military is made up mainly of young men who think they'll live forever and want to prove something. In the British Army, they have more of a chance of different postings and doing what they're paid for.


That's what I understand, more travel/range of deployments, more rapid promotion, though some will also be ex Irish Defence Forces too.
But I don't think that would make a modest expansion more difficult, the Defence Forces are likely have many more applications for recruitment than they can fill.
In the last several years, they've gone down from 10 to 7 infantry battalions. That shows an expansion isn't in the cards. All are light infantry, also. They have a couple of Piranha squadrons, but basically no armour either.
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:49 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
We are even further away from any Islamic country (which is the most likely source). Domestic is of course possible but highly unlikely. Compare this to Ireland where it has dozens of countries within an hour or so flight including parts of Africa.

A short look at the map suggests that there are only 4 countries reachable within an hour from Ireland. Flights from all of them basically require transit through British airspace.

A short read of what I wrote would see that I didn’t say an hour but in fact an hour or so... meaning 1 or more hours ie 1-3 hours.
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:06 pm

Zkpilot wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
We are even further away from any Islamic country (which is the most likely source). Domestic is of course possible but highly unlikely. Compare this to Ireland where it has dozens of countries within an hour or so flight including parts of Africa.

A short look at the map suggests that there are only 4 countries reachable within an hour from Ireland. Flights from all of them basically require transit through British airspace.

A short read of what I wrote would see that I didn’t say an hour but in fact an hour or so... meaning 1 or more hours ie 1-3 hours.

"An hour or so" would be up to one and a half hours for me, or even less. If you're from New Zealand, we might have differing views on approximate distances and times, considering that your neighbor country is over three hours away. :)
 
GDB
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:42 am

johns624 wrote:
GDB wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Maybe the problem is that the Irish forces don't provide enough "excitement"? The military is made up mainly of young men who think they'll live forever and want to prove something. In the British Army, they have more of a chance of different postings and doing what they're paid for.


That's what I understand, more travel/range of deployments, more rapid promotion, though some will also be ex Irish Defence Forces too.
But I don't think that would make a modest expansion more difficult, the Defence Forces are likely have many more applications for recruitment than they can fill.
In the last several years, they've gone down from 10 to 7 infantry battalions. That shows an expansion isn't in the cards. All are light infantry, also. They have a couple of Piranha squadrons, but basically no armour either.


Yes, however for each open place there are 100's if not more applications, great so they can really pick and choose, though if they wanted more they could still do this and not lower their standards.
The fact they do not see the need to or have replaced directly, (with tracked light armour) the Scorpion light tanks they used for years, makes the idea the Defence Forces would seek to operate fast jets with all that entails, in costs and relevance to their mission, even more unlikely.
 
embraer420
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Re: Ireland needs airspace defence capability

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:39 pm

GDB wrote:
johns624 wrote:
GDB wrote:

That's what I understand, more travel/range of deployments, more rapid promotion, though some will also be ex Irish Defence Forces too.
But I don't think that would make a modest expansion more difficult, the Defence Forces are likely have many more applications for recruitment than they can fill.
In the last several years, they've gone down from 10 to 7 infantry battalions. That shows an expansion isn't in the cards. All are light infantry, also. They have a couple of Piranha squadrons, but basically no armour either.


Yes, however for each open place there are 100's if not more applications, great so they can really pick and choose, though if they wanted more they could still do this and not lower their standards.
The fact they do not see the need to or have replaced directly, (with tracked light armour) the Scorpion light tanks they used for years, makes the idea the Defence Forces would seek to operate fast jets with all that entails, in costs and relevance to their mission, even more unlikely.


Expansion of the ground forces and the creation of an Air Force are completely different. Just because they haven't replaced some of the old ground equipment doesn't mean they couldn't or wouldn't buy jets. The decision to procure fast jets and create an air force would likely come from politicians not military personnel.

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