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Mortyman
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US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:06 am

US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

WASHINGTON ― The Trump administration has informally green lit a potential major arms sale to Taiwan involving dozens of new Lockheed Martin F-16V fighter jets, according to administration and Capitol Hill sources.


https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... -tensions/


China is not gonna be happy about that ...
 
Ozair
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:38 am

Mortyman wrote:
US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

WASHINGTON ― The Trump administration has informally green lit a potential major arms sale to Taiwan involving dozens of new Lockheed Martin F-16V fighter jets, according to administration and Capitol Hill sources.


https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... -tensions/


China is not gonna be happy about that ...

Not sure if will make that much of a difference to China. Sure they will protest politically but Taiwan was already having their fleet of F-16s upgraded to the V standard anyway so this adds a few more frames but hardly tipping the balance of power.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:56 am

Is it again for 66 frames? Or have things changed?

I think you are right about China, they will do the formal protest routine, but in the core, they do not care.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
texl1649
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:32 pm

The F-15X, as the AAM bus that it is to be, would have/could be much more disruptive.
 
trex8
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:02 am

texl1649 wrote:
The F-15X, as the AAM bus that it is to be, would have/could be much more disruptive.

Probably too expensive
And there is quality and quantity as they say
 
Ozair
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:34 am

trex8 wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
The F-15X, as the AAM bus that it is to be, would have/could be much more disruptive.

Probably too expensive
And there is quality and quantity as they say

Agree. Not only too expensive to operate per hour compared to the F-16V but introducing a whole additional airframe, when the Taiwanese already have F-5, F-16, Mirage 2000 and F-CK-1 in their fleet, seems unnecessary.

I doubt highly an F-15 with a few extra AAMs is going to make a difference. If Taiwan acquires the racks the F-16V has the ability to fly with at least 10 AAMs, 8 AIM-120s and 2 AIM-9Xs which seems more than sufficient to me.

Image

Taiwan won't need massive range so fly with the conformals and eliminate the drop tanks to slick the profile as much as possible.
 
trex8
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:03 am

Seems Mirages will be kept. Makes sense, replace the F5Es. Even if the Mirages are expensive they are decent kit.

Although the air force has already decided that the planned purchase of F-16Vs would not lead to a reduction in its number of Dassault Mirage 2000s, such a reduction should be considered, as it would free up Hsinchu Air Base for F-16Vs, he said.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ ... 2003720749

Wonder if they will stay with Pratt or go GE?
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:19 pm

Ozair wrote:
trex8 wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
The F-15X, as the AAM bus that it is to be, would have/could be much more disruptive.

Probably too expensive
And there is quality and quantity as they say

Agree. Not only too expensive to operate per hour compared to the F-16V but introducing a whole additional airframe, when the Taiwanese already have F-5, F-16, Mirage 2000 and F-CK-1 in their fleet, seems unnecessary.

I doubt highly an F-15 with a few extra AAMs is going to make a difference. If Taiwan acquires the racks the F-16V has the ability to fly with at least 10 AAMs, 8 AIM-120s and 2 AIM-9Xs which seems more than sufficient to me.

Image

Taiwan won't need massive range so fly with the conformals and eliminate the drop tanks to slick the profile as much as possible.


The F-15EX carries up to 22 AAMs, more than double the load of the F-16V. So, buying and flying the F-15EX is like 2 F-16Vs
 
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bikerthai
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:47 pm

kc135topboom wrote:
The F-15EX carries up to 22 AAMs


The EX is new and may not be exportable. The QA is almost as good, can be upgraded to similar capacity, and should be more easily exportable.

Curious though. In term of air defense. would it be more cost effective to order more Patriots as any full scale conflict with China would assume that the airfield will be cratered at the early stages of the conflict?

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Ozair
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:54 pm

kc135topboom wrote:

The F-15EX carries up to 22 AAMs, more than double the load of the F-16V. So, buying and flying the F-15EX is like 2 F-16Vs

Not quite. While the F-15EX (or QA) can conceivably carry 22 AAMs that load out is for internet advertising, not actual conflict.

Firstly that load out would impact both range and speed of the aircraft significantly. If you asked any F-15 pilot across the world if he wanted either double his weapon load or double his fuel he would take the fuel in a heat beat. Tactically, it is very unlikely that a single airframe will be able to identify, track and launch against 22 targets, or even 11 targets should he launch two missiles against each. Both virtual and real exercises such as Red Flag demonstrate that jets don’t need to fly out with massive AAM loads to complete their missions, even in high threat scenarios. They run out of fuel long before they typically run out of munitions.

Second, tactically how much better would it be for Taiwan to have two jets in one area that a single jet with a larger payload? A single F-15EX is not going to have better situational awareness than two F-16Vs, nor is the single F-15 going to be able to provide mutual support, nor will it be able to split if necessary and use its AAMs to target adversaries that are moving in different directions.

bikerthai wrote:
The EX is new and may not be exportable. The QA is almost as good, can be upgraded to similar capacity, and should be more easily exportable.

And likely more than twice the cost to operate per hour than the F-16V while introducing a new type to the Taiwanese fleet.

bikerthai wrote:
Curious though. In term of air defense. would it be more cost effective to order more Patriots as any full scale conflict with China would assume that the airfield will be cratered at the early stages of the conflict?

bt

Taiwan also has the TK-III which is considered close to as capable as the Patriot. RAND did an excellent study on Taiwanese Air defence options in 2016, including the trade off between a large fighter force and a large SAM force in the following study, https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1051.html The report also considers the implications of Taiwan replacing its current fighter fleet with the F-35B, and utilise the reduced runway requirements and advanced stealth that airframe offers, to offset the loss of runways.

You can download the HTML for free and I suggest having a read to understand the pros, cons and costs involved.
 
tommy1808
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:43 am

Ozair wrote:
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1051.html The report also considers the implications of Taiwan replacing its current fighter fleet with the F-35B, and utilise the reduced runway requirements and advanced stealth that airframe offers, to offset the loss of runways.
.


The US admin should just go and sell them F35. And train with them, red flag and all.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Ozair
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:46 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1051.html The report also considers the implications of Taiwan replacing its current fighter fleet with the F-35B, and utilise the reduced runway requirements and advanced stealth that airframe offers, to offset the loss of runways.
.


The US admin should just go and sell them F35. And train with them, red flag and all.

Best regards
Thomas

How about the next level, create a Flying Tigers American Volunteer Group where US personnel take a temporary leave of absence from the US Services and operate in an all US unit out of Taiwan for three years before posting back to the US to return to Active Duty. The Taiwanese acquire the F-35B but it is operated solely by US personnel (perhaps paid by Taiwan for contractor services). That gets over the security issues, gives the US Military additional local operational experience which benefits potential future operations in that region and provides a suitable deterrent against China.
 
tommy1808
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:11 am

Ozair wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1051.html The report also considers the implications of Taiwan replacing its current fighter fleet with the F-35B, and utilise the reduced runway requirements and advanced stealth that airframe offers, to offset the loss of runways.
.


The US admin should just go and sell them F35. And train with them, red flag and all.

Best regards
Thomas

How about the next level, create a Flying Tigers American Volunteer Group where US personnel take a temporary leave of absence from the US Services and operate in an all US unit out of Taiwan for three years before posting back to the US to return to Active Duty. The Taiwanese acquire the F-35B but it is operated solely by US personnel (perhaps paid by Taiwan for contractor services). That gets over the security issues, gives the US Military additional local operational experience which benefits potential future operations in that region and provides a suitable deterrent against China.


I like that idea. It has build in trip wire troops as well.
Would also have enormous potential to train ROCAF Pilots to make the best out of their older generation fighters against stealthy opponents.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
trex8
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:54 pm

dsca notifcation out yesterday, looks like they chose GE engines.
there was talk once of upgrading their Pratt -220 E to a higher thrust 220P, anyone know if its still on the table?

https://dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/taipe ... 16cd-block
 
Ozair
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:54 pm

The expected Chinese rhetoric has arrived.

China Threatens Retaliation Over U.S. Arms Sale to Taiwan

China vowed retaliation against a proposed $8 billion U.S. sale of advanced fighter jets to Taiwan, threatening to impose sanctions on American firms participating in such a deal.

“China will take all necessary measures to defend its own interests, including imposing sanctions on the U.S. companies involved in the arm sales,” Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang said at a Wednesday briefing in Beijing. “They constitute severe interference in China’s internal affairs and undermine China’s sovereignty and security interests.”

The 66 advanced Lockheed Martin Corp. F-16 jets, approved by the Trump administration, represents a boost for the island’s military -- and an even bigger boon for President Tsai Ing-wen as she faces a stiff campaign for re-election. It marks a major advance for the island’s aging air defense capabilities, even if a base model of the fighter plane has been in its skies for almost half a century.

...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -to-taiwan

trex8 wrote:
dsca notifcation out yesterday, looks like they chose GE engines.
there was talk once of upgrading their Pratt -220 E to a higher thrust 220P, anyone know if its still on the table?

I would be surprised if they did that. It simply isn't needed and seems to me like a waste of money that could be better spent on upping the availability of the fleet as a whole.
 
trex8
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Re: US to potentially sell F-16's to Taiwan

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:57 pm

Ozair wrote:
The expected Chinese rhetoric has arrived.


China vowed retaliation against a proposed $8 billion U.S. sale of advanced fighter jets to Taiwan, threatening to impose sanctions on American firms participating in such a deal.

“China will take all necessary measures to defend its own interests, including imposing sanctions on the U.S. companies involved in the arm sales,” Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang said at a Wednesday briefing in Beijing. “They constitute severe interference in China’s internal affairs and undermine China’s sovereignty and security interests.”



Cant wait to see them sanction GE. Should I start buying Pratt and Rolls Royce shares??

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