Reddevil556
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Palletized Seats

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:30 am

Just curious if 747F or converted freighters are capable of using the palletized seats commonly used on C-17s. Seems like it would be an easy way to move troops and cargo at the same time.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
mmo
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Re: Palletized Seats

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:30 am

No, as there is no plumbing for the PSUs. It would also be too expensive to go back and install the system needed. The CRAF, in the US, has passenger aircraft in the fleet, so it wouldn't be necessary to have freighters used as passenger aircraft.
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Armadillo1
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Re: Palletized Seats

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:22 am

if i remeber correct 737combi used palletized seats.
 
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Palletized Seats

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:33 am

You do not need plumbing for PSU. The PSU have self contain oxygen generators. Palletized seats can be used on the KC-46 and can easily be used on any 747F.

From what I can see, palletized seats are not as efficient in space usage as regular passenger transport.

bt
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Reddevil556
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Re: Palletized Seats

Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:07 pm

Thanks for the replies. I just remember seeing the likes of Atlas, Kalitta, National, and other various freighters flying in and out of Afghanistan. Just curious if the freighter/pax combo had ever been used for military airlift. The pallet seats are miserable for those who have never had the fortune of using them. The cargo net seats along the fuselage are far superior. However I figured a 747 could carry more pax and their gear than a C-17.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Palletized Seats

Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:11 pm

if they want to carry pax, they may charter any plane on the world. I think reason they using C-17 is they already flying C-17 there - return flight or something like this.
 
Reddevil556
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Re: Palletized Seats

Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:23 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
if they want to carry pax, they may charter any plane on the world. I think reason they using C-17 is they already flying C-17 there - return flight or something like this.


Most of the charter flights don’t land in combat zones. They unload pax in a nearby country, then a C-17 or C-130 takes them to places like Baghdad, Kandahar, or Kabul. Freighters fly into those locations all the time. I was just thinking about simplifying the logistics.

Unlike commercial aviation, the passengers all have 2-3 large bags and that takes a lot of cargo space.
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RetiredWeasel
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Re: Palletized Seats

Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:52 pm

bikerthai wrote:
You do not need plumbing for PSU. The PSU have self contain oxygen generators. Palletized seats can be used on the KC-46 and can easily be used on any 747F.

From what I can see, palletized seats are not as efficient in space usage as regular passenger transport.

bt


I don't know if passenger seat pallets have their own integral PSU's but seems to me that additional lavs would have to be loaded somehow. The single lav upstairs in 747 freighters could get maxed out quick with over 80 troops or so..not to mention the aircrew disturbances.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Palletized Seats

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:07 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
I don't know if passenger seat pallets have their own integral PSU's but seems to me that additional lavs would have to be loaded somehow.


:rotfl: You just have to ask :eyepopping:
http://www.kwdmfg.com/products/350-219- ... -lavatory/

There are other palletized lavs and galleys out there.

bt
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bikerthai
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Re: Palletized Seats

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:07 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
I don't know if passenger seat pallets have their own integral PSU's but seems to me that additional lavs would have to be loaded somehow.


:rotfl: You just have to ask :eyepopping:
http://www.kwdmfg.com/products/350-219- ... -lavatory/

There are other palletized lavs and galleys out there.

bt
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mmo
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Re: Palletized Seats

Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:43 am

Not certified for the 747. I seriously any airline would pay for the certification and the subsequent problems with leakage and corrosion. There are plenty of pax aircraft in the CRAF and more than amply supply of ACMI carriers to support troop movements at a cheaper price and more pax/flight.
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bikerthai
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Re: Palletized Seats

Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:10 pm

mmo wrote:
Not certified for the 747. I seriously any airline would pay for the certification and the subsequent problems with leakage and corrosion. There are plenty of pax aircraft in the CRAF and more than amply supply of ACMI carriers to support troop movements at a cheaper price and more pax/flight.


Agreed. If you want to ferry large number of troops via air, the 777 passenger would be most efficient. Situation where you need to combine cargo with troop is limited and can be handled by the C-17 and the newly arriving KC-46.

bt
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Palletized Seats

Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:02 pm

There was, IIRC, two sets of palletized seats designed for the C-5. It took about 36 hours to rig them for use and somewhat less to de-rig. Used about once a decade or two. My wing did a reserve pax move, for some stupid reason, using them. HQ thought it a great idea—NOT ever again.

GF
 
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smithbs
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Re: Palletized Seats

Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:05 pm

My flights to Afghanistan were changed out in Qatar - contracted commercial *cough Omni 762ER cough* into Qatar, then USAF into Afghanistan. This included palletized seats and side seats on C-17, and side seats in C-130. We were always in a combi mode - pallets or vehicles in the center, and sometimes a pallet of seats as well. I always chose side seats. The up-shot is once you are up in the air, you can roam around and get comfy somewhere else.

I think it was a policy not to fly people on contracted freighter - only stuff could go in those. Only contractors rated for people could fly people. Sometimes freighters in/out of Afghanistan are old wheezy models that aren't trusted. OTOH, it was fabulous airplane spotting - if it is still flying somewhere in the world, Afghanistan is likely where it will be. Who wants to see an An-12 in flight? I did, several times!

Don't forget, these are not your typical passengers. The comfort of soldiers and airmen is not factored in. They are expected to get in, shut up and be transported. Only a young male can take the abuse of military travel (and military service in general) and not require a daily chiropractic visit. If the pallet seats are a very narrow pitch...oh well.
 
Reddevil556
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Re: Palletized Seats

Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:51 pm

smithbs wrote:
My flights to Afghanistan were changed out in Qatar - contracted commercial *cough Omni 762ER cough* into Qatar, then USAF into Afghanistan. This included palletized seats and side seats on C-17, and side seats in C-130. We were always in a combi mode - pallets or vehicles in the center, and sometimes a pallet of seats as well. I always chose side seats. The up-shot is once you are up in the air, you can roam around and get comfy somewhere else.

I think it was a policy not to fly people on contracted freighter - only stuff could go in those. Only contractors rated for people could fly people. Sometimes freighters in/out of Afghanistan are old wheezy models that aren't trusted. OTOH, it was fabulous airplane spotting - if it is still flying somewhere in the world, Afghanistan is likely where it will be. Who wants to see an An-12 in flight? I did, several times!

Don't forget, these are not your typical passengers. The comfort of soldiers and airmen is not factored in. They are expected to get in, shut up and be transported. Only a young male can take the abuse of military travel (and military service in general) and not require a daily chiropractic visit. If the pallet seats are a very narrow pitch...oh well.


I flew in on C-17s in a Combi format and c-130s within the country. But we had to do I believe four separate flights to get everyone there. That’s why I was curious about a contracted 747F Combi. It would make sense if there was a policy against pax flying in freighters, but then again some of my buddies flew in contract Mi-8/17s around the country.

Plane spotting was awesome there with such a variety of aircraft. My favorite was the Dash 7s. I never had the courage to attempt photography though haha
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
Ozair
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Re: Palletized Seats

Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:20 pm

Reddevil556 wrote:
smithbs wrote:
My flights to Afghanistan were changed out in Qatar - contracted commercial *cough Omni 762ER cough* into Qatar, then USAF into Afghanistan. This included palletized seats and side seats on C-17, and side seats in C-130. We were always in a combi mode - pallets or vehicles in the center, and sometimes a pallet of seats as well. I always chose side seats. The up-shot is once you are up in the air, you can roam around and get comfy somewhere else.

I think it was a policy not to fly people on contracted freighter - only stuff could go in those. Only contractors rated for people could fly people. Sometimes freighters in/out of Afghanistan are old wheezy models that aren't trusted. OTOH, it was fabulous airplane spotting - if it is still flying somewhere in the world, Afghanistan is likely where it will be. Who wants to see an An-12 in flight? I did, several times!

Don't forget, these are not your typical passengers. The comfort of soldiers and airmen is not factored in. They are expected to get in, shut up and be transported. Only a young male can take the abuse of military travel (and military service in general) and not require a daily chiropractic visit. If the pallet seats are a very narrow pitch...oh well.


I flew in on C-17s in a Combi format and c-130s within the country. But we had to do I believe four separate flights to get everyone there. That’s why I was curious about a contracted 747F Combi. It would make sense if there was a policy against pax flying in freighters, but then again some of my buddies flew in contract Mi-8/17s around the country.

Plane spotting was awesome there with such a variety of aircraft. My favorite was the Dash 7s. I never had the courage to attempt photography though haha

Australia used to contract this IL-76 from Adagold for their Middle East runs until an A340 then A330 became available. These would fly into the region with transport forward by C-130s or C-17.



Reportedly operated in combi mode and was not in great condition...
 
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keesje
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Re: Palletized Seats

Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:01 am

KLM used palletized seats during day time flights onn DC9-33's in Europe.

Late in the evening those were remove & cargo flights were made during the night.

Early in the morning the aircraft were converted back for passenger flights.

Image

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/model/McDo ... 0DC-9-33RC
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Max Q
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Re: Palletized Seats

Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:45 am

Reddevil556 wrote:
Thanks for the replies. I just remember seeing the likes of Atlas, Kalitta, National, and other various freighters flying in and out of Afghanistan. Just curious if the freighter/pax combo had ever been used for military airlift. The pallet seats are miserable for those who have never had the fortune of using them. The cargo net seats along the fuselage are far superior. However I figured a 747 could carry more pax and their gear than a C-17.



Why are the pallet seats miserable?
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Reddevil556
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Re: Palletized Seats

Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:07 am

Max Q wrote:
Reddevil556 wrote:
Thanks for the replies. I just remember seeing the likes of Atlas, Kalitta, National, and other various freighters flying in and out of Afghanistan. Just curious if the freighter/pax combo had ever been used for military airlift. The pallet seats are miserable for those who have never had the fortune of using them. The cargo net seats along the fuselage are far superior. However I figured a 747 could carry more pax and their gear than a C-17.



Why are the pallet seats miserable?


I’m not a huge person (5’8”) and my knees were jammed into the seat in front me. The seats don’t recline and if you are in any seat other than the outside rows, you need to have everyone stand up and exit so you can go use the lav. Imagine the most densely configured seating and this is worse. Flew from Kabul to Romania that way.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Palletized Seats

Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:28 am

its about C-17?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Palletized Seats

Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:09 am

I think it's about how the pallet anchors to the cargo handling system forcing them to push the aisles to the sidewalls instead of twin aisles like a typical wide body. You can always put in twin aisles, but that would significantly reduce seating capacity.
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smithbs
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Re: Palletized Seats

Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:33 pm

Reddevil556 wrote:
smithbs wrote:
My flights to Afghanistan were changed out in Qatar - contracted commercial *cough Omni 762ER cough* into Qatar, then USAF into Afghanistan. This included palletized seats and side seats on C-17, and side seats in C-130. We were always in a combi mode - pallets or vehicles in the center, and sometimes a pallet of seats as well. I always chose side seats. The up-shot is once you are up in the air, you can roam around and get comfy somewhere else.

I think it was a policy not to fly people on contracted freighter - only stuff could go in those. Only contractors rated for people could fly people. Sometimes freighters in/out of Afghanistan are old wheezy models that aren't trusted. OTOH, it was fabulous airplane spotting - if it is still flying somewhere in the world, Afghanistan is likely where it will be. Who wants to see an An-12 in flight? I did, several times!

Don't forget, these are not your typical passengers. The comfort of soldiers and airmen is not factored in. They are expected to get in, shut up and be transported. Only a young male can take the abuse of military travel (and military service in general) and not require a daily chiropractic visit. If the pallet seats are a very narrow pitch...oh well.


I flew in on C-17s in a Combi format and c-130s within the country. But we had to do I believe four separate flights to get everyone there. That’s why I was curious about a contracted 747F Combi. It would make sense if there was a policy against pax flying in freighters, but then again some of my buddies flew in contract Mi-8/17s around the country.

Plane spotting was awesome there with such a variety of aircraft. My favorite was the Dash 7s. I never had the courage to attempt photography though haha


Waaa? Some of your guys got Mi-8 rides? I wasn't allowed. We used them for hauling stuff, but we were barred from flying in them. :(
 
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smithbs
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Re: Palletized Seats

Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:36 pm

Reddevil556 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Reddevil556 wrote:
Thanks for the replies. I just remember seeing the likes of Atlas, Kalitta, National, and other various freighters flying in and out of Afghanistan. Just curious if the freighter/pax combo had ever been used for military airlift. The pallet seats are miserable for those who have never had the fortune of using them. The cargo net seats along the fuselage are far superior. However I figured a 747 could carry more pax and their gear than a C-17.



Why are the pallet seats miserable?


I’m not a huge person (5’8”) and my knees were jammed into the seat in front me. The seats don’t recline and if you are in any seat other than the outside rows, you need to have everyone stand up and exit so you can go use the lav. Imagine the most densely configured seating and this is worse. Flew from Kabul to Romania that way.


Agreed. The pitch is unbelievably tight and it's five-across. In the military, passenger comfort doesn't go far. You are there to be transported, not to enjoy yourself.
 
Reddevil556
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Re: Palletized Seats

Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:27 pm

smithbs wrote:
Reddevil556 wrote:
smithbs wrote:
My flights to Afghanistan were changed out in Qatar - contracted commercial *cough Omni 762ER cough* into Qatar, then USAF into Afghanistan. This included palletized seats and side seats on C-17, and side seats in C-130. We were always in a combi mode - pallets or vehicles in the center, and sometimes a pallet of seats as well. I always chose side seats. The up-shot is once you are up in the air, you can roam around and get comfy somewhere else.

I think it was a policy not to fly people on contracted freighter - only stuff could go in those. Only contractors rated for people could fly people. Sometimes freighters in/out of Afghanistan are old wheezy models that aren't trusted. OTOH, it was fabulous airplane spotting - if it is still flying somewhere in the world, Afghanistan is likely where it will be. Who wants to see an An-12 in flight? I did, several times!

Don't forget, these are not your typical passengers. The comfort of soldiers and airmen is not factored in. They are expected to get in, shut up and be transported. Only a young male can take the abuse of military travel (and military service in general) and not require a daily chiropractic visit. If the pallet seats are a very narrow pitch...oh well.


I flew in on C-17s in a Combi format and c-130s within the country. But we had to do I believe four separate flights to get everyone there. That’s why I was curious about a contracted 747F Combi. It would make sense if there was a policy against pax flying in freighters, but then again some of my buddies flew in contract Mi-8/17s around the country.

Plane spotting was awesome there with such a variety of aircraft. My favorite was the Dash 7s. I never had the courage to attempt photography though haha


Waaa? Some of your guys got Mi-8 rides? I wasn't allowed. We used them for hauling stuff, but we were barred from flying in them. :(


Yeah, they said they were terrifying flights. Granted they didn’t know much about the birds themselves. I only flew around in 47s in country. I loved watching the IL-76s and AN-12s. Don’t get many of those stateside.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
WIederling
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Re: Palletized Seats

Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:48 am

keesje wrote:
KLM used palletized seats during day time flights onn DC9-33's in Europe.


LH had the 737-200QC as in quick change.

I seem to remember photos taken showing Wide Body palletized seating being exchanged on LH frames. 747?

The mail hub flights to/from FRA every night used to be done with tarps placed over seats
and the the mail bags thrown on top.
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Armadillo1
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Re: Palletized Seats

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:10 am

 
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keesje
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Re: Palletized Seats

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:20 am

I think they are / were used by special and militairy operators mostly.

Image

https://qam.com.au/qam-content/aircraft/friendship/QuickChange.htm

What about seatpacks, to do cargo without removing the seats :tongue2:

Image

Image

The Aussies did it (Ansett)

Image

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