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superbizzy73 wrote:https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2019/09/19/the-us-navys-new-autonomous-refueling-drone-takes-historic-first-flight/
Congratulations to Boeing and the US Navy for this milestone. Here’s hoping the project goes forward without any major hiccups. Boeing really needs this one to go smoothly.
Reddevil556 wrote:Seems a bit on the small side to refuel aircraft such as the F-35 and F/A-18
Reddevil556 wrote:Haven’t been able to find a definitive answer, but what exactly is the task and purpose of a refueling drone? Is it for other drones or for refueling manned aircraft? Seems a bit on the small side to refuel aircraft such as the F-35 and F/A-18
Oroka wrote:Reddevil556 wrote:Haven’t been able to find a definitive answer, but what exactly is the task and purpose of a refueling drone? Is it for other drones or for refueling manned aircraft? Seems a bit on the small side to refuel aircraft such as the F-35 and F/A-18
It is not a big tanker, it is more of a replacement for sending out another fighter like a Rhino to do buddy refueling. Its about the size of a big fighter.
Reddevil556 wrote:Haven’t been able to find a definitive answer, but what exactly is the task and purpose of a refueling drone? Is it for other drones or for refueling manned aircraft? Seems a bit on the small side to refuel aircraft such as the F-35 and F/A-18
JayinKitsap wrote:This is good. I wonder how far from being a prototype this is.
estorilm wrote:JayinKitsap wrote:This is good. I wonder how far from being a prototype this is.
Didn't Northrop have something FAR FAR FAR more advanced than this flying years ago? Including carrier landings and takeoffs?
What a ridiculous waste of $$$.
JayinKitsap wrote:estorilm wrote:JayinKitsap wrote:This is good. I wonder how far from being a prototype this is.
Didn't Northrop have something FAR FAR FAR more advanced than this flying years ago? Including carrier landings and takeoffs?
What a ridiculous waste of $$$.
Northrop did have a drone that went thru carrier landings and takeoffs, but they decided to not submit for the MQ-25 RFP.
Boeing's MQ-25 has a lot in common with their submission for that earlier RFP, but they were not selected.
The previous project was for a drone fighter, they went simpler and removed stealth from the requirements. A tanker is the right stepping stone
as it is relatively simple task compared to the fighter. Besides we need manned bombers and fighters, for the pilot's glory.
estorilm wrote:Well, I generally agree - however from what I had read and discussed with people in the program, the Northrop X-47B was extremely far along in development (largely on Northrops own $$$) and was routinely taxiing and performing other carrier ops remotely - YEARS ahead of this project, with a more capable (and more stealthy) platform. I understand the Boeing design doesn't have the same requirements, but damn... what a waste of money. Now we need to sit around and watch the Boeing sponge soak up as much govt $$$$$ as possible to get the most basic platform into the air again.
bikerthai wrote:The only other manufacturer with carrier experience would have been LM.
Tugger wrote:So NG has that heritage if not current experience (which I agree is 99% of the issue)
Tugger wrote:bikerthai wrote:The only other manufacturer with carrier experience would have been LM.
Well modern carrier experience. The Grumman Tomcat was THE plane for awhile there. It was produced thru 1991. So NG has that heritage if not current experience (which I agree is 99% of the issue).
(Sorry I just to point that out, carry on! )
Tugg
In August, successful wind tunnel testing and demonstration combining two Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR) projects in simulated flight took place at the AEDC National Full-Scale Aerodynamics Complex (NFAC) 40 by 80 wind tunnel at NASA Ames, California.
Research under SBIR topic N07-172 lead to the development of Actively Stabilized Refueling Drogue System (ASDRS) by Analytical Mechanical Associated (AMA); a system that is able to counteract disturbances on the aerial refueling drogue in flight. Integrated with the N15A-T014 effort developed by Coherent Technical Services, Inc. (CTI), the Innovative Instrumentation Package: Optical Reference System (ORS), an image processing system that can determine drogue position with Hi-Resolution video has resulted in a more stable aerial refueling platform. These began as two separate Science and Technology efforts in response to two independent needs.
The first was the need to provide a more stable aerial refueling platform so that our receiver aircraft could engage the drogue and receive fuel more safely and efficiently. The ASDRS consists of a pair of aluminium shrouds that can rotate mounted onto the exiting hose end-refueling coupling. On these shrouds are pairs of lift and roll strakes that produce the lift force to counteract the disturbance and the roll torque needed to generate power that will stored in a system of onboard super-capacitors. A pair of DC motors controlled by an onboard control law system drives the drogue control system. When the system is not in active mode, the DC motors recharge the super-capacitors.
The original Phase I effort for N07-172 was awarded to Nielsen Engineering & Research, a branch of AMA, back in 2008 to research an innovative controllable drogue refueling system. This research led to a Phase II award in 2012 followed by a PHII.5 in 2016 totaling over $2 million in SBIR funding to continue refining the technology to deliver innovative concepts for stabilization and control.
Separately, to support future readiness and reliability of the Aerial Refueling Store (ARS), an innovative instrumentation package is being developed to better monitor system performance. Part of this package is the ORS, which provides real time hose, drogue and receiver position. The ORS consists of a pair of high-resolution cameras, image processing algorithms, and data storage. The ORS is housed in the tanker system, in this case, the USN Aerial Refueling Store (ARS). ORS can provide real time drogue and receiver position relative to the tanker aircraft at up to 20 Hz. It is also serves as the perfect drogue position feedback sensor for the ASDRS.
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The Boeing MQ-25A Stingray in-flight refuelling tanker is on track to achieve initial operational capability (IOC) by 2024. That is thanks to a narrow set of development goals, close integration with Naval Air Systems Command personnel and the early test use of a flyable prototype, says Boeing.
The manufacturer adds that the core of its MQ-25A development strategy is waving off distractions in order to deliver on just two goals: building an aircraft that can fly from an aircraft carrier deck and can refuel fighters. “If we focus on what’s in front of us and do it well, we are sure it opens doors,” says Dave Bujold, director of the MQ-25A programme. “If we don’t focus on what is in front of us and don’t do it well, we are sure it closes doors.”
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The MQ-25A has also been floated by the USN and others as having multiple future roles, including as an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) platform, but Boeing says it doesn’t plan to expand the UAV’s capabilities, noting the service’s tanking priority.
In June 2019, the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency announced its intention to award a sole-source contract to Boeing Phantom Works to study the capabilities of the company’s Multi-Mission Pod on the MQ-25A. Bujold reiterates the USN focus is on aerial refuelling, but points out the aircraft has some limited ISR capabilities now.
“It’s not doing anything crazy or exotic that would capture anybody’s imagination,” he says. “But it certainly is going out of line-of-sight communications with the carrier. So therefore it’s an interesting player in the carrier air wing for potential ISR use.”
...
Ozair wrote:Boeing are trying to stay focused on the primary air refuelling mission of the MQ-25 and avoid trying to tie other mission sets into the platform. Clearly doing that will help them deliver on time and it appears the USN is also very focused on getting the platform to the fleet as soon as possible.
Boeing stays focused on basics to keep unmanned tanker on trackThe Boeing MQ-25A Stingray in-flight refuelling tanker is on track to achieve initial operational capability (IOC) by 2024. That is thanks to a narrow set of development goals, close integration with Naval Air Systems Command personnel and the early test use of a flyable prototype, says Boeing.
The manufacturer adds that the core of its MQ-25A development strategy is waving off distractions in order to deliver on just two goals: building an aircraft that can fly from an aircraft carrier deck and can refuel fighters. “If we focus on what’s in front of us and do it well, we are sure it opens doors,” says Dave Bujold, director of the MQ-25A programme. “If we don’t focus on what is in front of us and don’t do it well, we are sure it closes doors.”
...
The MQ-25A has also been floated by the USN and others as having multiple future roles, including as an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) platform, but Boeing says it doesn’t plan to expand the UAV’s capabilities, noting the service’s tanking priority.
In June 2019, the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency announced its intention to award a sole-source contract to Boeing Phantom Works to study the capabilities of the company’s Multi-Mission Pod on the MQ-25A. Bujold reiterates the USN focus is on aerial refuelling, but points out the aircraft has some limited ISR capabilities now.
“It’s not doing anything crazy or exotic that would capture anybody’s imagination,” he says. “But it certainly is going out of line-of-sight communications with the carrier. So therefore it’s an interesting player in the carrier air wing for potential ISR use.”
...
https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-int ... 78.article
Tugger wrote:Ozair wrote:Boeing are trying to stay focused on the primary air refuelling mission of the MQ-25 and avoid trying to tie other mission sets into the platform. Clearly doing that will help them deliver on time and it appears the USN is also very focused on getting the platform to the fleet as soon as possible.
Boeing stays focused on basics to keep unmanned tanker on trackThe Boeing MQ-25A Stingray in-flight refuelling tanker is on track to achieve initial operational capability (IOC) by 2024. That is thanks to a narrow set of development goals, close integration with Naval Air Systems Command personnel and the early test use of a flyable prototype, says Boeing.
The manufacturer adds that the core of its MQ-25A development strategy is waving off distractions in order to deliver on just two goals: building an aircraft that can fly from an aircraft carrier deck and can refuel fighters. “If we focus on what’s in front of us and do it well, we are sure it opens doors,” says Dave Bujold, director of the MQ-25A programme. “If we don’t focus on what is in front of us and don’t do it well, we are sure it closes doors.”
...
The MQ-25A has also been floated by the USN and others as having multiple future roles, including as an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) platform, but Boeing says it doesn’t plan to expand the UAV’s capabilities, noting the service’s tanking priority.
In June 2019, the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency announced its intention to award a sole-source contract to Boeing Phantom Works to study the capabilities of the company’s Multi-Mission Pod on the MQ-25A. Bujold reiterates the USN focus is on aerial refuelling, but points out the aircraft has some limited ISR capabilities now.
“It’s not doing anything crazy or exotic that would capture anybody’s imagination,” he says. “But it certainly is going out of line-of-sight communications with the carrier. So therefore it’s an interesting player in the carrier air wing for potential ISR use.”
...
https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-int ... 78.article
"Focused to stay on track" yes, that is one absolute element. And a smart and critical one.
The other equally important thing is that if the government wants any other capability it will have to pay for it. Period. (And Boeing needs the future money flows to be there.) Ain't nothing gonna be given for free. (And is it ever in military contracts?)
Tugg
The US Navy (USN) has awarded Boeing $84.7 million for three additional MQ-25A Stingray unmanned in-flight refuelling tankers.
The unmanned air vehicles (UAV) are expected to be complete by August 2024, says the Department of Defense in a notice online on 2 April.
The three additional “demonstration test articles” bring the total number of aircraft Boeing is manufacturing in the MQ-25A programme to seven. The award was an option on the original four-aircraft contract, worth $805 million, which was awarded to Boeing in August 2018.
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The US Navy could face a three-year delay in testing of the MQ-25 Stingray carrier-based tanking drone if it doesn’t get its designated test ships through the required modernizations on time, a possibility the Navy said was “remote.”
Two carriers — Carl Vinson and George H.W. Bush — have limited windows to complete the installation of unmanned aircraft control stations, and if operational commitments intervene it could create significant issues for the program, according to Navy officials and a government watchdog report.
“Program officials stated that, among other things, the Navy’s potential inability to maintain its schedule commitments could require modifications to the contract that would impact the fixed-price terms,” the Government Accountability Office reported. “Specifically, the Navy faces limited flexibility to install MQ-25 control centers on aircraft carriers.
“If the Navy misses any of its planned installation windows, the program would have to extend MQ-25 development testing by up to 3 years. According to officials, such a delay could necessitate a delay to initial capability and result in a cost increase.”
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SteelChair wrote:If Boeing couldn't deliver the far less ambitious KC-46 and MAX, what is the probability of success for this program?
Rear Adm. Greg Harris told a virtual audience that a recent force structure study of the carrier air wing – the aircraft and associated personnel assigned to aircraft carriers – and that a combinations of new systems and new weapons coming online make the carrier relevant even as potential adversaries invest in long-range weapons to keep the Navy’s powerful strike arm at bay.
The addition of the MQ-25 Stingray, which an unmanned tanker drone for refueling aircraft being developed by Boeing, helps in that endeavor, as will a next-generation fighter Harris said.
“The MQ-25 adds range which adds lethality to the carrier strike group,” he said. “When you add that additional range to 4th and 5th Gen[eration] fighters; when you add that range to the range we’re looking at for F/A-XX or next-generation air dominance family of systems; if you add that to the long-range weapons that we are currently procuring and look to procure in the future: we have an ability to strike at range and with volume and tempo.”
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U.S. Navy aviators are already learning how to “fly” the MQ-25 unmanned aerial refueler before the first air vehicle comes off the production line.
Four Navy air vehicle operators (AVOs) from VX-23, the Navy’s developmental test squadron, and VX-1, the operational test squadron, recently traveled to Boeing’s St. Louis facility for an immersive three-day simulation designed to train them to operate a flight from start-up to shut-down from the ground control station (GCS) – the MQ-25’s terrestrial or CVN-based “cockpit.”
This course was possible due to the experience gained by flying T1, the Boeing-owned MQ-25 test asset developed prior to the Navy awarding Boeing the MQ-25 Engineering, Manufacturing and Development contract in August 2018. T1 first flew in September 2019 and to date has accumulated nearly 30 flight hours during its initial phase of testing. T1 recently underwent a planned modification to integrate an aerial refueling store (ARS) and is currently in ground testing prior to resuming flight testing. Navy AVOs will have the opportunity to serve in the co-pilot role, AVO No. 2, when flights resume.
Lt. Venus Savage, the VX-1 MQ-25 assistant operational test director, said the training was a unique opportunity to learn about the command and control processes used to interface with and operate the MQ-25 long before the first aircraft is delivered to the Navy.
“Especially for operational test, we’re lucky to be involved this early in the program,” Savage said. “It helps when you get that side information from an experienced AVO that adds to what’s in the documentation. We were able to ask detailed questions and get clarification on what the checklists and commands are and they let us know what to expect from the air vehicle. It helps ingrain it in your memory because it’s more than just book learning.”
The ongoing dialogue between Navy and Boeing AVOs helps shape the final system delivered to the Fleet, which is a win for the Navy, Boeing and ultimately the warfighters that will use the system.
Savage explained that the combined experience of the Navy and Boeing team differentiates MQ-25 from other programs. “While there are still changes to be made, like with all developmental programs, we’re working together to create a better finished product,” Savage said. “The collaboration is awesome. It’s a great team to work with.”
Boeing has flown its MQ-25A test asset (T1) with an aerial refuelling store under its wing for the first time.
The initial flight lasted 2.5h and was conducted by Boeing test pilots operating the unmanned air vehicle from a ground control station at MidAmerica St. Louis Airport in Mascoutah, Illinois. The flight tested the unmanned in-flight refuelling tanker’s aerodynamics with the refuelling pod mounted under the wing, the company says.
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889091 wrote:Can the entire pod be jettisoned in case the basket and hose cannot be reeled back in? It would make a carrier landing slightly tricky, with a flailing hose and basket behind you.
Ozair wrote:First test of the MQ-25 with the refuelling pod on the aircraft. The pod looks very big compared to the airframe itself. This is just the Boeing test aircraft and not a pre-production airframe although not sure how many changes there will be, at least externally, between the two. Some graphics have also shown an external fuel tank on the other wing which would likely assist with loading and balance.
Boeing flies MQ-25 with aerial refuelling pod for first time
889091 wrote:Can the entire pod be jettisoned in case the basket and hose cannot be reeled back in? It would make a carrier landing slightly tricky, with a flailing hose and basket behind you.
Ozair wrote:889091 wrote:Can the entire pod be jettisoned in case the basket and hose cannot be reeled back in? It would make a carrier landing slightly tricky, with a flailing hose and basket behind you.
I believe the pod is the standard Cobham pod used on the SH for A2A refuelling and the pylon would also be fleet standard so should be very easy to eject the pod should that be deemed necessary. This is the pod used on the SH, https://www.cobhammissionsystems.com/ai ... t/docview/ which can be jettisoned.
889091 wrote:Could they not have integrated the pod into the body of the drone to make it more streamlined?
889091 wrote:
I do not believe the MQ-25 has a central hardpoint, nor does it seem to have enough clearance. As the MQ-25 had been identified as a dedicated refueling drone early on in its development, why would they just slap it under one wing? The drag alone would probably cause asymmetric yaw and also affect loiter time. Could they not have integrated the pod into the body of the drone to make it more streamlined? And should be a complete pod jettison be required (Thanks LyleLanley for pointing out that the pod has a hose guillotine capability) - it will just pop off, ala the MD-80 tailcone.
889091 wrote:Thanks Ozair.
Most of the buddy refueling pics that I have seen - the pod is slung under the central hardpoint of the donor aircraft.
https://world-defense.com/threads/buddy ... ling.4639/
I do not believe the MQ-25 has a central hardpoint, nor does it seem to have enough clearance. As the MQ-25 had been identified as a dedicated refueling drone early on in its development, why would they just slap it under one wing? The drag alone would probably cause asymmetric yaw and also affect loiter time. Could they not have integrated the pod into the body of the drone to make it more streamlined? And should be a complete pod jettison be required (Thanks LyleLanley for pointing out that the pod has a hose guillotine capability) - it will just pop off, ala the MD-80 tailcone.
JayinKitsap wrote:It seems the RFP identified for the Cobham unit on one side and an external tank on the other, balancing it out.
bikerthai wrote:That explains it. Does the RFP mention anything about the internal hose? Looking at the MQ-25A, with the high exhaust, there might be room beneath aft for a reel.
bt
bikerthai wrote:JayinKitsap wrote:It seems the RFP identified for the Cobham unit on one side and an external tank on the other, balancing it out.
That explains it. Does the RFP mention anything about the internal hose? Looking at the MQ-25A, with the high exhaust, there might be room beneath aft for a reel.
bt
889091 wrote:Do these things have a proximity self destruct trigger in case the data up/downlink is lost during short final, preventing the operators from landing it on the flight deck?
Predator or Reaper drones slamming onto an asphalt runway - asphalt runway will always win.
MQ-25 with empty tanks full of vapour (I do not believe it has OBIGGS?) slamming onto a Nimitz/Ford class flight deck may cause some substantial damage however...