texl1649
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:05 pm

Not much new to report lately I guess here? Is the Luftwaffe really this bad off?

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... rmany.html

Typhoon jets: 39 of 128
Tornado jets: 26 of 93
CH-53 transport helicopters: 16 of 72
NH-90 transport helicopters: 13 of 58
Tiger attack helicopters: 12 of 62
A400M transport aircraft: 3 of 15
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:35 pm

texl1649 wrote:
https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... rmany.html


As much as I dislike left wing propaganda, I like right wing propaganda even less. As long as we are expressing opinion, I would propose that underfunding of German's Arm Force began when the wall fell.

bt
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texl1649
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:52 pm

bikerthai wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... rmany.html


As much as I dislike left wing propaganda, I like right wing propaganda even less. As long as we are expressing opinion, I would propose that underfunding of German's Arm Force began when the wall fell.

bt


Ok? I don't care about the rest of the article. Are the readiness figures shown accurate? I really don't want to debate politics here at all.

What in the world is wrong with the NH-90 as well?
 
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SQ22
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Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:10 pm

I have moved some posts in a separate thread. This deserves its own thread and by doing this the other one does not get derailed.
 
estorilm
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:14 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Not much new to report lately I guess here? Is the Luftwaffe really this bad off?

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... rmany.html

Typhoon jets: 39 of 128
Tornado jets: 26 of 93
CH-53 transport helicopters: 16 of 72
NH-90 transport helicopters: 13 of 58
Tiger attack helicopters: 12 of 62
A400M transport aircraft: 3 of 15

I doubt it's that bad - in the other post I was talking about one of their new A400M's I just had the pleasure of touring two weeks ago, and it was at a relatively small air show at IAD, after she was supposed to move some cargo that they didn't even end up getting at the previous stop. There's no way I happened to see one of only three operational Luftwaffe A400s sitting at an airshow doing nothing.

I wonder if they'd have more success keeping US fighters operational? That really jumps out at me, as there are plenty of Euro operators and nothing is really new or complicated about them.

Not that it'll ever matter, but I'm sure some of the folks over there wish their hands weren't tied behind their backs.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:26 pm

texl1649 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... rmany.html


As much as I dislike left wing propaganda, I like right wing propaganda even less. As long as we are expressing opinion, I would propose that underfunding of German's Arm Force began when the wall fell.

bt


Ok? I don't care about the rest of the article. Are the readiness figures shown accurate? I really don't want to debate politics here at all.

What in the world is wrong with the NH-90 as well?


The numbers are correct, but by GAF standards, I.e. even airframes that are currently not part of a unit (upgrades, heavy maintenance) and unavailable in principle count. There pretty much also isn't a MEL... everything has to work. That is not to say that supply of spare parts leaves....mm... room for improvement, but even with everything being peachy those numbers would probably never go beyond ~80% availability.

Those numbers are of cause hogwash to describe the current state of affairs, as they just happen to be those from a time when most Typhoon had shop visits due to that structural problem they had, and plenty of Tornados where undergoing ASSTA upgrades.
The Typhoon is currently 60% available with a 70% target, and that would be right smack among the best air forces.

Tiger and NH90 suffer from logistics/spare part management, other operators don't have that problem.

In the past the GAF had on numerous occasions more aircraft deployed (baltics) or joining exercises while maintaining ready fighters in total numbers beyond what was just reported available.... they can change quickly.

texl1649 wrote:
Somewhat unsurprisingly, Sikorsky thinks the CH-53K is the best/only option for the Germans.


And they are right. The Army still wants to be able to carry light armored fighting vehicles internally, because using air mobile armor is part of their playbook. Only the CH53 can deliver that.
The army not getting what it wants due to price is the CH47 chance. And wouldn't be unexpected.

However, the tender is not for x number of helicopters, but helicopters needed to provide y amount of transport/number of missions accomplished. So per Unit price may not be all that significant.

Best regards
Thomas
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mmo
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:17 pm

I don't think the article is factually correct. The issue is not about actual airframes being Mission Ready but it is actually a shortage of military pilots.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-air-force- ... a-50278509
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:40 pm

texl1649 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... rmany.html


As much as I dislike left wing propaganda, I like right wing propaganda even less. As long as we are expressing opinion, I would propose that underfunding of German's Arm Force began when the wall fell.

bt


Ok? I don't care about the rest of the article. Are the readiness figures shown accurate? I really don't want to debate politics here at all.

What in the world is wrong with the NH-90 as well?


The same that is wrong with all other platforms.
To begin with you can only order spares when you need them.
Even when that is for regular ( preventive) maintainance.
Lots of spares are not really shelf items.
I.e. everytime some part needs changing the plane is unavailable for the duration
( order to delivery )
Then Luftwaffe does the Air India thing: cannibalize one plane to keep another one going.
But you can only take so much parts for recurring maintainance. .-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:47 pm

texl1649 wrote:
What in the world is wrong with the NH-90 as well?

Der Transporthubschrauber NH90 ist ein nicht einsatzreifer, weiterhin im
Bestandsaufwuchs befindlicher leichter Mehrzweckhubschrauber. Er wird derzeit in
der Version Tactical Transport Helicopter (TTH) im Heer eingesetzt.
Der Gesamtbestand der Bundeswehr an NH90 beläuft sich derzeit auf 58 Systeme.
Dem Heer standen im betrachteten Zeitraum durchschnittlich 37 Systeme zur
Verfügung, von denen durchschnittlich 13 Systeme einsatzbereit waren. Dies
entspricht im Mittel einer materiellen Einsatzbereitschaft von 35%.
Der zeitlich befristete Einsatz von insgesamt 4 Luftfahrzeugen im Rahmen der VNMission
MINUSMA ist mit technisch-logistischen Herausforderungen verbunden.
Die geringe materielle Einsatzbereitschaft wird nach wie vor durch die hohe Anzahl
von Vorserienhubschraubern, durch fehlende Ersatzteile sowie insbesondere durch
fehlende militärische und industrielle Kapazitäten zur Durchführung der zu
aufwändigen Wartungs- und Inspektionsmaßnahmen beschränkt.

Insgesamt ist im Berichtszeitraum ein positiver Trend der materiellen
Einsatzbereitschaft festzustellen, der sich insbesondere aus der beginnenden
Wirksamkeit der eingeleiteten Maßnahmen der Task Force Drehflügler (jetzt
Steuergruppe Nutzung fliegende Waffensysteme) herleitet.
43 mittel- und langfristige offene Handlungsempfehlungen der Task Force
Drehflügler, davon 13 in Federführung des Heeres, stehen für NH90 zur Umsetzung
an, um die materielle Einsatzbereitschaft zu verbessern. Rückblickend konnte wie
auch beim UH TIGER die Anzahl der offenen Handlungsempfehlungen im Vergleich
zum Vorjahr nahezu halbiert werden.
Erst die Realisierung dieser Maßnahmen wird in Verbindung mit einer in der
Umsetzung befindlichen schrittweisen Optimierung des kaum handhabbaren
Inspektionssystems
zu einer spürbaren Verbesserung führen.
Im Vergleich zum UH TIGER, der ein bi-nationales Projekt darstellt (Deutschland und
Frankreich), ist der Abstimmungsbedarf beim NH90 deutlich komplexer.
Die Optimierung des Inspektionssystemes bedarf der multinationalen Absprache
zwischen den Vertragsparteien NAHEMA1 (Deutschland, Italien, Frankreich,
Niederlande, Belgien) und der NHI2 (Airbus Helicopters, Fokker, Leonardo) als
Bedarfsdecker. Darüber hinaus liegt eine erweiterte Partnerschaft mit ESP, FIN,
NOR, NZL und AUS vor, die in einer umfangreichen Vertragslandschaft NH90
ausgeführt wird.

Zusätzlich werden im Rahmen der Betriebs- und Versorgungsverantwortung des
Heeres
- die Fach-und Führungskompetenz der Heeresfliegertruppe weiter gebündelt
und zentralisiert,
- die Umstellung der luftfahrzeugtechnischen Ausbildung bis 2019 DEMAR3 -
konform realisiert und
- die luftfahrzeugtechnischen Kapazitäten verstärkt sowie durch
Industrieunterstützung entlastet.

Das Herstellen der Einsatzreife ist die Grundlage für eine verlässliche und
strukturierte Ausbildungs-, Übungs- und Einsatzplanung des NH90.
Der Einsatz MINUSMA kann mit NH90 sichergestellt werden. Die Bindung der
Ressourcen im Einsatz führt zu einer Gefährdung der Durchhaltefähigkeit bei den
qualifizierten Einsatzbesatzungen ab Mitte 2018. Daher ist die Rückverlegung – wie
den Vereinten Nationen angezeigt – zwingend erforderlich. Zum Erhalt der
Grundqualifikation von Besatzungen werden zusätzlich ab 2018 Flugstunden ziviler
Anbieter angemietet.

Directly from the official report on readiness:
  • High number of initial production models
  • Lack of spare parts in storage
  • Lack of internal and industrial capacity for inspection, maintenance and spare parts
  • Highly complex maintenance procedures
  • "Nearly unmanagable" inspection system
  • Extremely complex web of cooperations that needs to be consulted before making changes to, for example, the inspection & maintenance system
  • Lack of centralized management in the army's aviation branch
  • Lack of up-to-date training of mechanics
Fundamentally, a problem is that many systems are either very new (A400M, NH90, Tiger) or very old (CH-53, Tornado, Transall, A310). That said, the readiness is poor across the board. The german armed forces are changing but slowly. You can't just magically make spare parts or trained personnel appear.
 
texl1649
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:45 pm

The Luftwaffe seems to need to acquire the simplest to maintain types, is my reading on this (and not early production aircraft of a new family). They seem incapable on a long term basis of maintaining/operating sophisticated new models, so hopefully the CH-53K wouldn't happen (as that is basically an all new aircraft).

The Air India model doesn't really work for them, either.

Why then is Germany moving forward with a 6th gen platform with others? The Gripen would seem to make a lot more sense here.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:22 pm

texl1649 wrote:
The Luftwaffe seems to need to acquire the simplest to maintain types, is my reading on this (and not early production aircraft of a new family). They seem incapable on a long term basis of maintaining/operating sophisticated new models, so hopefully the CH-53K wouldn't happen (as that is basically an all new aircraft).

The Air India model doesn't really work for them, either.

Why then is Germany moving forward with a 6th gen platform with others? The Gripen would seem to make a lot more sense here.

They're in a bad spot between a public expectation to have cutting edge technology and a public unwillingness to spend more than the bare minimum.

The defence budget is almost twice as large as the infrastructure budget already. Any noticeable increase in defence spending awakens desires to spend that on (supposedly) more pressing issues like infrastructure, education or social security.


BTW the Air India model does work; particularly the C160 fleet is still operating quite well because they have acquired old spare parts & retired aircraft from other operators in addition to their own retirements.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:04 pm

texl1649 wrote:
They seem incapable on a long term basis of maintaining/operating sophisticated new models, so hopefully the CH-53K wouldn't happen (as that is basically an all new aircraft).


This is where the CH-47 may have a leg up as there may be a more robust logistic infrastructure already in place. As for man-power, they can always sub-contract it to Boeing for Logistic support.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Noray
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:41 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Not much new to report lately I guess here? Is the Luftwaffe really this bad off?

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... rmany.html

Typhoon jets: 39 of 128
Tornado jets: 26 of 93
CH-53 transport helicopters: 16 of 72
NH-90 transport helicopters: 13 of 58
Tiger attack helicopters: 12 of 62
A400M transport aircraft: 3 of 15

These were the availability rates for 2017, but I guess we'll hear them from certain circles for many years to come... Meanwhile, the Federal Defence Ministry has stopped publishing new numbers.

I'll pick out the A400M. "3 of 15" was actually widely reported even by official sources, but it has never been accurate, since it compares an annual average (3 aircraft available) to the annual maximum (15 A400Ms at the end of 2017). But the Luftwaffe started that year with only 7 A400Ms, the other 8 were only delivered in the course of 2017. The yearly average for 2017 was closer to 10 A400Ms than 15. "3 out of 10" would be a more realistic assessment for 2017.

The Luftwaffe by now has 31 A400Ms, and during June 2019, they flew 19 of these.
 
texl1649
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:32 pm

Heh, well, “no updated statistics are being released” and “19 of 31 flew at some point in June” aren’t compelling indicia of a somewhat ‘normal’ readiness/mission capable level, for any other ‘1st world’ Air Force. And that’s just for a locally/indigenously produced cargo plane (that first flew over 10 years ago)!

By comparison, the (notoriously troublesome) B-1 and B-2 fleets are over 50% on any given day.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... ot-crisis/
 
mxaxai
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:13 am

texl1649 wrote:
Heh, well, “no updated statistics are being released” and “19 of 31 flew at some point in June” aren’t compelling indicia of a somewhat ‘normal’ readiness/mission capable level, for any other ‘1st world’ Air Force. And that’s just for a locally/indigenously produced cargo plane (that first flew over 10 years ago)!

By comparison, the (notoriously troublesome) B-1 and B-2 fleets are over 50% on any given day.

That's not how statistics work ...
 
WIederling
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:27 pm

texl1649 wrote:
By comparison, the (notoriously troublesome) B-1 and B-2 fleets are over 50% on any given day.


Look at the Ministry of War budget in the US ( in scope of GDP, in global context).
Hegemonic Power Projection is expensive. ( And allow the question: is the result for the money spent adequate?)
Murphy is an optimist
 
texl1649
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:43 pm

WIederling wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
By comparison, the (notoriously troublesome) B-1 and B-2 fleets are over 50% on any given day.


Look at the Ministry of War budget in the US ( in scope of GDP, in global context).
Hegemonic Power Projection is expensive. ( And allow the question: is the result for the money spent adequate?)


We, in the US, don’t have ministries in our government. Whilst Germany has tried power projection a few times in the past couple centuries, the concern here isn’t strategic US policy but why a ‘1st world’ Air Force seems incapable of anything approaching a reasonable level of readiness/mission capable rates for their own air arm (located almost entirely within territorial Germany).

Please don’t try to derail this thread with some sort of notion of global politics as per normal. What’s wrong with Luftwaffe readiness, or is it acceptable in fact as is?
 
WIederling
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:01 pm

texl1649 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
By comparison, the (notoriously troublesome) B-1 and B-2 fleets are over 50% on any given day.


Look at the Ministry of War budget in the US ( in scope of GDP, in global context).
Hegemonic Power Projection is expensive. ( And allow the question: is the result for the money spent adequate?)


We, in the US, don’t have ministries in our government. Whilst Germany has tried power projection a few times in the past couple centuries, the concern here isn’t strategic US policy but why a ‘1st world’ Air Force seems incapable of anything approaching a reasonable level of readiness/mission capable rates for their own air arm (located almost entirely within territorial Germany).

Please don’t try to derail this thread with some sort of notion of global politics as per normal. What’s wrong with Luftwaffe readiness, or is it acceptable in fact as is?

A rose by any other name.

One tentative guess is that there is motive to be _unable to aid_ the US in aggressive adventures.
"Grossmannssucht" is alive and well in Germany. With a defunct military those interests go nowhere.
Whatever goading is applied ( like before WWI and before WWII ) is successfully frustrated.
Murphy is an optimist
 
texl1649
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:10 pm

German AF readiness is being impaired deliberately to avoid (American??) ‘goading’ as that which led to WW1 and WW2?

Ok, have a nice day. Enjoy this one, mods.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:19 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Heh, well, “no updated statistics are being released” and “19 of 31 flew at some point in June” aren’t compelling indicia of a somewhat ‘normal’ readiness/mission capable level, for any other ‘1st world’ Air Force. And that’s just for a locally/indigenously produced cargo plane (that first flew over 10 years ago)!

By comparison, the (notoriously troublesome) B-1 and B-2 fleets are over 50% on any given day.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... ot-crisis/


How fair is that comparison? What is mission capable for each case?

Is a plane with regular after-mission maintenance considered mission incapable until it is loaded and tanked?
Or should it lack a vital part that prevents it from flying?

Any numbers from other countries?
I guess the Russian are in the decimals?
 
oschkosch
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:10 pm

Why is readiness so important? Any wars in Europe currently? No.

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Planeflyer
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:23 pm

oschkosch wrote:
Why is readiness so important? Any wars in Europe currently? No.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk



How does GAF readiness compare to other members?
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:47 am

oschkosch wrote:
Why is readiness so important? Any wars in Europe currently? No.

Well, we are part of the NATO. So it’s not only about Europe.

A war could start rather quickly in the Middle East.

But I often asked myself the same question. Why keeping everything operational if there is no war on the horizon? Problem is, wars can start quickly- remember 911? - and I am not sure if we could keep our contractual obligations in such a case.

Then again, as far as I know Germany was never asked to provide fighter jets? I even don’t know if our pilots have real experience in that special area... so why keeping all these fighter jets operational? Maybe we should only keep all equipment operational that we typically provide in case of conflicts (transport, surveillance, medical). In return, other nations could concentrate on other sectors. But yes, I know, it doesn’t work this way...
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:54 am

oschkosch wrote:
Why is readiness so important? Any wars in Europe currently? No.

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Because readiness is correlated with training levels, and if you don't have mission-capable aircraft to conduct training with, you can't train.

And pilots are among the most difficult to train effectively, as not only do they need to work on basic airmanship, but also strategy, combat tactics, and work on being familiar with their aircraft. You can't have pilots sitting around doing nothing and when a conflict starts, suddenly restart training them again, and expect them to be effective. Training needs to be regular and ongoing.

That's why NATO has a set standard for combat jet pilots; the expected minimum is 150 hours annually, and that's barely enough time to ensure pilots have basic familiarity with their aircraft. A more realistic minimum is double that, 300 hours annually.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:34 am

As is evident from some of the posters above, the German mindset is why spend the money when others will.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:42 am

Planeflyer wrote:
As is evident from some of the posters above, the German mindset is why spend the money when others will.



Don't take my words and form them as the general German opinion of our entire country. Actually the public opinion is more like "why go to war at all".
 
YIMBY
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:22 am

N14AZ wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Why is readiness so important? Any wars in Europe currently? No.

Well, we are part of the NATO. So it’s not only about Europe.

A war could start rather quickly in the Middle East.

But I often asked myself the same question. Why keeping everything operational if there is no war on the horizon? Problem is, wars can start quickly- remember 911? - and I am not sure if we could keep our contractual obligations in such a case.

Then again, as far as I know Germany was never asked to provide fighter jets? I even don’t know if our pilots have real experience in that special area... so why keeping all these fighter jets operational? Maybe we should only keep all equipment operational that we typically provide in case of conflicts (transport, surveillance, medical). In return, other nations could concentrate on other sectors. But yes, I know, it doesn’t work this way...


Going to war at Middle East is no way a priority of Germany. Germany has no commitment nor contractual obligations of anything else than protecting NATO partners, and somewhat EU members. Technically Turkey is a NATO member but they are deliberately making their own problems so that there is no obligation to support them in their power games, neither USA on their personal revenge against Iran.

Otherwise, having non-ready planes is certainly better than having no planes. In case of a crisis they can be made ready much faster than acquiring new planes from wherever. And a good part of the non-operationality of Bundeswehr is that they do not fulfil all civilian, peace-time requirement.
 
texl1649
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:03 am

I certainly don’t advocate an expansive war in the Middle East, but again in this discussion of German Luftwaffe readiness (and bundeswehr generally) the situation I fail to understand. Syria and Libya are certainly impacting Europe tremendously, and German assistance to ease that situation is limited to essentially taking ‘refugees.’ No other air arm, outside of Africa or perhaps Latin America, has readiness figures even approaching the dismal German ones, across the board (not limited to helo’s, or old/new types).

Air power alone isn’t a solution but the deliberate handicapping of that capability seems quite odd. The Russian threat seems real today as well, as many Ukrainians/Poles would agree...

Another piece/food for thought;

https://warontherocks.com/2019/06/expla ... ic-debate/
 
WIederling
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:53 pm

N14AZ wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Why is readiness so important? Any wars in Europe currently? No.

Well, we are part of the NATO. So it’s not only about Europe.

A war could start rather quickly in the Middle East.

A war in the Middle East is not a task for NATO. ( even if select demagogues try to make it look like it is )
NATO is a mutual defense organization of a group of nations.

Military adventures across the globe that the US is so fond of are not included.
Murphy is an optimist
 
johns624
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:21 pm

I like how so many people think that the defense of their country begins at their land borders. If Somali pirates start hijacking more freighters and shipping and insurance rates go up, doesn't that affect your country? That's just one example. Of course, the latest German frigates are a bloated boondoggle so it's not just the air force.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:22 pm

johns624 wrote:
I like how so many people think that the defense of their country begins at their land borders. If Somali pirates start hijacking more freighters and shipping and insurance rates go up, doesn't that affect your country? That's just one example. Of course, the latest German frigates are a bloated boondoggle so it's not just the air force.

You are aware that Germany is part of Operation Atalanta, right?
Not to mention that most freight shipping companies dont bother registering their ships in the countries they ask for protection - how capable is Panama's blue water navy again?
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:47 pm

YIMBY wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Why is readiness so important? Any wars in Europe currently? No.

Well, we are part of the NATO. So it’s not only about Europe. A war could start rather quickly in the Middle East...

Germany has no commitment nor contractual obligations of anything else than protecting NATO partners, and somewhat EU members. Technically Turkey is a NATO member but they are deliberately making their own problems so that there is no obligation to support them in their power games, neither USA on their personal revenge against Iran.

WIederling wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Why is readiness so important? Any wars in Europe currently? No.

Well, we are part of the NATO. So it’s not only about Europe.

A war could start rather quickly in the Middle East.

A war in the Middle East is not a task for NATO.

It already happened before after 911:

NATO invoked a mutual defense clause in its founding treaty for the first time today, strongly suggesting that the United States would have the support of the allies if it takes military action against those responsible for attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

A NATO statement issued after a meeting of ambassadors to the 19-member alliance said, ''If it is determined that this attack was directed from abroad against the United States, it shall be regarded as an action covered by Article 5 of the Washington Treaty.''

Article 5, the cornerstone of the alliance, says ''an armed attack'' against any of the allies in Europe or North America ''shall be considered an attack against them all.''

It commits NATO members to take the necessary measures, including the use of force, to restore security.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/us/a ... th-us.html
 
JJJ
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:26 pm

N14AZ wrote:
.

A NATO statement issued after a meeting of ambassadors to the 19-member alliance said, ''If it is determined that this attack was directed from abroad against the United States, it shall be regarded as an action covered by Article 5 of the Washington Treaty.''

Article 5, the cornerstone of the alliance, says ''an armed attack'' against any of the allies in Europe or North America ''shall be considered an attack against them all.''


"In Europe or North America" being the relevant part.

I dont think any middle eastern actor is sending troops or missiles to the US or Europe.

NATO mutual defence clause could be invoked because the attack happened in American soil unlike, say, the USS Cole bombing.
 
johns624
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:09 pm

mxaxai wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I like how so many people think that the defense of their country begins at their land borders. If Somali pirates start hijacking more freighters and shipping and insurance rates go up, doesn't that affect your country? That's just one example. Of course, the latest German frigates are a bloated boondoggle so it's not just the air force.

You are aware that Germany is part of Operation Atalanta, right?
Not to mention that most freight shipping companies dont bother registering their ships in the countries they ask for protection - how capable is Panama's blue water navy again?

You missed the whole point of my post. Many prior posters said that Germany didn't need a functional military since nobody was invading Germany. I was replying that you needed a military for more than border defense. I stand by my statement that the F125 frigates are too much ship for their firepower.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:29 am

WIederling wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Why is readiness so important? Any wars in Europe currently? No.

Well, we are part of the NATO. So it’s not only about Europe.

A war could start rather quickly in the Middle East.

A war in the Middle East is not a task for NATO. ( even if select demagogues try to make it look like it is )
NATO is a mutual defense organization of a group of nations.

Military adventures across the globe that the US is so fond of are not included.


Military adventures like ww2?
 
WIederling
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:33 am

Planeflyer wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Military adventures across the globe that the US is so fond of are not included.


Military adventures like ww2?

Haha. expectable retort but
an outlier. if even that. Altruism was not the motivator there either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_i ... ted_States
Murphy is an optimist
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:52 am

JJJ wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Article 5, the cornerstone of the alliance, says ''an armed attack'' against any of the allies in Europe or North America ''shall be considered an attack against them all.''


"In Europe or North America" being the relevant part.

I dont think any middle eastern actor is sending troops or missiles to the US or Europe.

NATO mutual defence clause could be invoked because the attack happened in American soil unlike, say, the USS Cole bombing.

Who knows what will follow.

But even independently from the existing pure contractual obligations: Germany is an export nation, right? So I do believe we have an obligation to involve ourselves in case one nation threatens international trade routes. And readiness level of the Luftwaffe- the topic of this thread- is an aspect of this obligation.
 
User avatar
N14AZ
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:59 am

oschkosch wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
As is evident from some of the posters above, the German mindset is why spend the money when others will.



Don't take my words and form them as the general German opinion of our entire country. Actually the public opinion is more like "why go to war at all".

Or, „why do we have to pay for wars and consequences of such wars, that were started with wrong justifications, now better known as fake news?“ or „it’s not only about defense budget, our financial support to improve living conditions in „shit whole countries“ has to be considered as well“
 
WIederling
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:46 am

N14AZ wrote:
JJJ wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Article 5, the cornerstone of the alliance, says ''an armed attack'' against any of the allies in Europe or North America ''shall be considered an attack against them all.''


"In Europe or North America" being the relevant part.

I dont think any middle eastern actor is sending troops or missiles to the US or Europe.

NATO mutual defence clause could be invoked because the attack happened in American soil unlike, say, the USS Cole bombing.

Who knows what will follow.

But even independently from the existing pure contractual obligations: Germany is an export nation, right? So I do believe we have an obligation to involve ourselves in case one nation threatens international trade routes. And readiness level of the Luftwaffe- the topic of this thread- is an aspect of this obligation.


Go back to the Cod Wars with Iceland.

The Brits and some others sent the Navy. Germany dispatched Ben Wisch.
Guess who produced a better _and_ synergetic result :-)

Years ago in the aftermath of the Iraq Überfall some US government types noticed
that Europe had strong effective softpower.
They went for superficially imitating that ( just what is visible from the outside. a variation on cargo cult.
they never grasped what enabled that kind of softpower.:: really working as a fair and reliable partner
and not just trying to posture as such. PR is not everything.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1152
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:40 pm

N14AZ wrote:
But even independently from the existing pure contractual obligations: Germany is an export nation, right? So I do believe we have an obligation to involve ourselves in case one nation threatens international trade routes. And readiness level of the Luftwaffe- the topic of this thread- is an aspect of this obligation.

However, 'readiness' can be viewed from several points:

Is the equipment of the Luftwaffe ready to fly?
Is the Luftwaffe ready for current and expected threats, as well as international obligations?
Is the personnel kept ready by sufficient training?

The first question is simple to answer - between 30% and 75% of all equipment that could be ready is actually available, on average.
The answer to the second question is given by the report: Most systems have sufficient readiness to fulfill their current duties. Some, like the Eurocopter Tiger and NH90, cannot be supported on longer deployments like to Mali. The Eurocopter was impacted by a fatal crash in Mali and the reasons for the NH90's problems are given above.
The third is probably the most critical: Fulfilling the current duties takes units away from training, so the personnel at home cannot train due to lack of equipment and the deployed personnel cannot train because, well, they are deployed. Luftwaffe management has realized this and a multi-step plan is in place to improve training quality and availability. The results will be seen in a few years.

texl1649 wrote:
“no updated statistics are being released”

Dieser Bericht setzt diese Unterrichtungen fort und erweitert ihren Umfang um fünf Hauptwaffensysteme des militärischen Organisationsbereiches Cyber- und Informationsraum, um weitere acht Systeme mit besonderer Relevanz für die Very High Readiness Joint Task Force (VJTF) und um eine gesonderte Betrachtung neu zugelaufener Waffensysteme.
Der Bericht für das Jahr 2018 ist im Vergleich zu den vergangenen vier Jahren umfangreicher und detaillierter. In der Gesamtschau lässt er nunmehr so konkrete Rückschlüsse auf die aktuellen Fähigkeiten der Bundeswehr zu, dass eine Kenntnisnahme durch Unbefugte die Sicherheitsinteressen der Bundesrepublik Deutschland schädigen würde. Dies gilt umso mehr vor dem Hintergrund einer verschärften sicherheitspolitischen Lage sowie dem deutschen Beitrag zur Sicherheitsvorsorge im Rahmen der Bündnisverteidigung. Die im Bericht enthaltenen Informationen sind deswegen in ihrer Gesamtheit GEHEIM einzustufen. Damit wird auch dem Schutz unserer Soldatinnen und Soldaten Rechnung getragen. Der Bericht liegt zu Ihrer Einsichtnahme in der Geheimschutzstelle des Deutschen Bundestages bereit.
Gleichzeitig wird die Transparenz und Aktualität erhöht. Denn von nun an wird der Bericht halbjährlich statt nur einmal im Jahr erscheinen – und an den Turnus des Rüstungsberichts gekoppelt.
Gist: This year's report is so detailed that it would give potential enemies invaluable information about the precise capabilities.
Im Berichtsjahr 2018 lag die materielle Einsatzbereitschaft der fast zehntausend Einzelsysteme gemessen am Verfügungsbestand der Teilstreitkräfte, also abzüglich der ohnehin unvermeidbar im regelmäßigen Turnus notwendigen Wartungs- und industriellen Modernisierungszyklus befindlichen Waffensysteme, im Durchschnitt bei ca. 70 Prozent. Damit war die Bundeswehr trotz erheblicher Mehrbelastung aktuell in der Lage, ihren Auftrag im Einsatz, in einsatzgleichen Verpflichtungen und im Grundbetrieb zu erfüllen. (…)
Es ist deshalb in Anbetracht dieser erschwerenden Rahmenbedingungen als Erfolg zu werten, dass nicht nur der Abwärtstrend der materiellen Einsatzbereitschaft der Hauptwaffensysteme weitgehend gestoppt werden konnte, sondern im abgebildeten Zeitraum in Teilen sogar eine Verbesserung der materiellen Einsatzbereitschaft erreicht wurde.
Beispiel für eine besonders positive Entwicklung ist der GTK BOXER mit einem deutlichen Anstieg der durchschnittlichen materiellen Einsatzbereitschaft. (…) Auch beim A400M ist ein positiver Trend zu verzeichnen, bei gleichzeitigem Zulauf von zehn weiteren Luftfahrzeugen und der Zertifizierung als Tankflugzeug. (…)
Auch wenn der eingeschlagene Weg richtig ist, sind wir noch nicht am Ziel. So konnte etwa die materielle Einsatzbereitschaft bei den Ubooten Klasse U212A nicht zufriedenstellen. Dabei standen im ersten Halbjahr 2018 durch die Kombination von geplanten Instandsetzungen (beispielsweise Garantieliegezeiten) und materiellen Ausfällen (unvorhersehbare Schäden an den Fahrbatterien im Verantwortungsbereich der Industrie), für einen Zeitraum von fünf Monaten keine Uboote für Einsätze zur Verfügung. Durch zielgerichtete Arbeit konnte die Verfügbarkeit zum Ende des Berichtszeitraumes wieder auf drei Uboote erhöht werden.
Auch bei den im Einsatz befindlichen „Alt-Waffensystemen“ CH-53 und TORNADO konnte angesichts der sehr fordernden Einsatzverpflichtung in Afghanistan und Jordanien (mit Ersatzteil-Priorität) lediglich das niedrige Niveau des Vorjahres stabilisiert werden.
In Summe beginnen die eingeleiteten Trendwenden zu greifen. Noch sind die positiven Auswirkungen nicht in Gänze spürbar, aber perspektivisch werden sie sich absehbar auf den verlässlicheren und umfangreicheren Zulauf einsatzbereiten Materials auswirken. (…)
Aufgrund der konsequenten Bündelung von Ressourcen (u.a. Personal, Großgerät, Ersatzteile) in den Auslandseinsätzen und einsatzgleichen Verpflichtungen, verfügen die dort genutzten Waffensysteme wie auch schon in den letzten Jahren über eine weit überdurchschnittliche Einsatzbereitschaft. Durch die Fortsetzung der Trendwenden und einer ausreichenden Bereitstellung von finanziellen und damit materiellen und personellen Ressourcen gilt es, diesen hohen Grad der Einsatzbereitschaft stufenweise auf die ganze Bundeswehr zu übertragen.

Summary of this year's report:
- Average readiness of 70%
- Most systems have improved readiness, despite increased deployments. Particularly GTK Boxer and A400M have seen improvements in both readiness and capability.
- CH-53, Tornado and U-Boats are the most critical systems
- The units that are actually in use (deployed overseas or homeland defence) have priority for spare parts and achieve superb readiness.
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 3794
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:14 pm

mxaxai wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
But even independently from the existing pure contractual obligations: Germany is an export nation, right? So I do believe we have an obligation to involve ourselves in case one nation threatens international trade routes. And readiness level of the Luftwaffe- the topic of this thread- is an aspect of this obligation.

However, 'readiness' can be viewed from several points:

I fully agree! And thanks for your very interesting post with all the updated information.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10865
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:30 am

oschkosch wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
As is evident from some of the posters above, the German mindset is why spend the money when others will.



Don't take my words and form them as the general German opinion of our entire country. Actually the public opinion is more like "why go to war at all".


.... and considering that the German defense budget is the 8th highest worldwide and the 4th highest within NATO (going onto 3rd highest) it is hogwash anyways. It may also very well be the 2nd highest expenditure on conventional weapons within NATO and Saudi Arabia has the only non-nuclear force with a higher budget.......

Gruß
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1428
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:29 am

tommy1808 wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
As is evident from some of the posters above, the German mindset is why spend the money when others will.



Don't take my words and form them as the general German opinion of our entire country. Actually the public opinion is more like "why go to war at all".


.... and considering that the German defense budget is the 8th highest worldwide and the 4th highest within NATO (going onto 3rd highest) it is hogwash anyways. It may also very well be the 2nd highest expenditure on conventional weapons within NATO and Saudi Arabia has the only non-nuclear force with a higher budget.......

Gruß
Thomas

Are you saying there is nothing to see here so we should move along?
 
vr773
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:10 am

Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:39 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Summary of this year's report:
- Average readiness of 70%
- Most systems have improved readiness, despite increased deployments. Particularly GTK Boxer and A400M have seen improvements in both readiness and capability.
- CH-53, Tornado and U-Boats are the most critical systems
- The units that are actually in use (deployed overseas or homeland defence) have priority for spare parts and achieve superb readiness.


It’s not surprising that the “journalists” of americanthinker.com cherrypicked outdated information and misinterpreted it. My expectation for the Topic author would be to research facts first before building an argument based on a Breitbart-twin article.
 
texl1649
Topic Author
Posts: 1056
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:53 pm

mxaxai wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
But even independently from the existing pure contractual obligations: Germany is an export nation, right? So I do believe we have an obligation to involve ourselves in case one nation threatens international trade routes. And readiness level of the Luftwaffe- the topic of this thread- is an aspect of this obligation.

However, 'readiness' can be viewed from several points:

Is the equipment of the Luftwaffe ready to fly?
Is the Luftwaffe ready for current and expected threats, as well as international obligations?
Is the personnel kept ready by sufficient training?

The first question is simple to answer - [b]between 30% and 75% of all equipment that could be ready is actually available[/b], on average.

The answer to the second question is given by the report: Most systems have sufficient readiness to fulfill their current duties.

The third is probably the most critical: Fulfilling the current duties takes units away from training, so the personnel at home cannot train due to lack of equipment and the deployed personnel cannot train because, well, they are deployed. Luftwaffe management has realized this and a multi-step plan is in place to improve training quality and availability. The results will be seen in a few years.

texl1649 wrote:
“no updated statistics are being released”


Summary of this year's report:
- Average readiness of 70%
- Most systems have improved readiness, despite increased deployments. Particularly GTK Boxer and A400M have seen improvements in both readiness and capability.
- CH-53, Tornado and U-Boats are the most critical systems
- The units that are actually in use (deployed overseas or homeland defence) have priority for spare parts and achieve superb readiness.


LOL, you've summarized a summary, and the actual details were marked as classified ostensibly to keep from criticism.

From the perspective of MEPs, the new classification of the report came as a surprise. Only by letter also from today's Monday had the parliamentary and cabinet department of the secret protection agency in the Bundestag twelve copies of the report, diary no. 408/19 - VS-SECRET, sent. The fact that information that was not classified in previous years, are now a secret, is first in need of explanation , said the Green MP Tobias Lindner, who sits both in the Defense and the Budget Committee. Apparently the readiness of the Bundeswehr is so bad that it should not be better known to the public. Why a report that has been open for years is suddenly classified secret remains the Ministry's trade secret.

The classification of information publicly provided by the Ministry of Defense in previous years has become a trend. In February, the Wehrressort denied public statements on the total cost of large, tax-financed defense projects following a request from the Left Party: The total cost of defense projects as well as the legal framework for repairs and repairs in the armaments projects under consideration are considered as "CLOSING CLAUSE" to safeguard the security interests of the Federal Republic of Germany. ONLY FOR SERVICE USE ".


It sounds like PR. "Between 30 and 75 percent of equipment that can be available, is." So some is excluded, some isn't, and we don't want to provide the details because it's a secret. But we have a huge economy/net budget, so stop pestering us with questions.

Typical German propaganda. Right up there with "we were goaded into WW1 and 2." That level of detail, and readiness that obviously hasn't improved since 2016 (or it would be declassified, again), is unacceptable anywhere else. The French, Brits, and Dutch certainly do much better, as I believe the Poles do, outside of their warsaw pact era aircraft.
 
Ozair
Posts: 4264
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Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:17 pm

texl1649 wrote:
The French, Brits, and Dutch certainly do much better, as I believe the Poles do, outside of their warsaw pact era aircraft.

The French also have their struggles. They have excellent availability for their deployed units but that comes at the expense of home units, with low availability and aircrew struggling to meet their minimums.

Rafale Fighter Jet Serviceability Rate With French Air Force Is 48.5 Percent

The serviceability rate of the Dassault Rafale fighter jet in service with the French Air Force is 48.5%, according to information given to a French lawmaker by the government.
The serviceability rate or the availability rate is the number of aircraft ready for missions at any given time. In the case of the French Air Force’s Rafale jets, nearly half of the fleet is on the ground undergoing repairs or maintenance, Jane’s reported on 24 November 2016.



https://www.defenseworld.net/news/17812 ... ZZwK0YzaUk

I have also seen reports the Poles struggle to maintain more than ten serviceable F-16s out of a fleet almost five times that size. Their Mig-29 fleet I believe hasn’t flown in months either.

The issue with Germany, as with France and Poland and likely most others, is almost certainly related to spares availability and a lack of budget allocation. In the same way the USN had an availability rate for the SH just over 50% it wasn’t until Mattis opened the flood gates for maintenance funding that the SH fleet, supplemented by new build aircraft, has been able to rise again to 80%.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1428
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:37 am

Ozair wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
The French, Brits, and Dutch certainly do much better, as I believe the Poles do, outside of their warsaw pact era aircraft.

The French also have their struggles. They have excellent availability for their deployed units but that comes at the expense of home units, with low availability and aircrew struggling to meet their minimums.

Rafale Fighter Jet Serviceability Rate With French Air Force Is 48.5 Percent

The serviceability rate of the Dassault Rafale fighter jet in service with the French Air Force is 48.5%, according to information given to a French lawmaker by the government.
The serviceability rate or the availability rate is the number of aircraft ready for missions at any given time. In the case of the French Air Force’s Rafale jets, nearly half of the fleet is on the ground undergoing repairs or maintenance, Jane’s reported on 24 November 2016.



https://www.defenseworld.net/news/17812 ... ZZwK0YzaUk

I have also seen reports the Poles struggle to maintain more than ten serviceable F-16s out of a fleet almost five times that size. Their Mig-29 fleet I believe hasn’t flown in months either.

The issue with Germany, as with France and Poland and likely most others, is almost certainly related to spares availability and a lack of budget allocation. In the same way the USN had an availability rate for the SH just over 50% it wasn’t until Mattis opened the flood gates for maintenance funding that the SH fleet, supplemented by new build aircraft, has been able to rise again to 80%.


Thanks for the details!

Since you seem to have direct experience w ac could you give us a view of the most commonly replaced items that if not available ground the ac
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10865
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:37 am

Planeflyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
oschkosch wrote:


Don't take my words and form them as the general German opinion of our entire country. Actually the public opinion is more like "why go to war at all".


.... and considering that the German defense budget is the 8th highest worldwide and the 4th highest within NATO (going onto 3rd highest) it is hogwash anyways. It may also very well be the 2nd highest expenditure on conventional weapons within NATO and Saudi Arabia has the only non-nuclear force with a higher budget.......

Gruß
Thomas

Are you saying there is nothing to see here so we should move along?


No, just that your statement is quite obviously wrong.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Ozair
Posts: 4264
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Readiness Level of German Luftwaffe (Air Force)

Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:28 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Thanks for the details!

Since you seem to have direct experience w ac could you give us a view of the most commonly replaced items that if not available ground the ac

I don't know if you can find a correlation between different aircraft on most common issues/parts and I also don't know what are the specific maintenance issues or spares shortages that impact the Eurofighter and Rafale fleets. Often it isn't the availability of parts but money and procedures as can be seen with the SH.

Spencer credited the budget increases from the last two years for the turn-around, but also attributed the success to finding new processes that save time.

Specifically, he highlighted a program called the Depot Readiness Initiative. As part of that program, Spencer said, the Navy is letting the depots perform regular calendar maintenance as well as depot-level maintenance at the same time, a move that cuts out redundant work by performing scheduled and depot maintenance at the same time.

http://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/0 ... aking-way/

This link https://navalaviationnews.navylive.dodl ... hallenges/

covers legacy Hornet maintenance and shows how much effort is required to keep aircraft availability high as they age.

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