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art
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Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:43 pm

If the American F-35, Russian Su-57, Chinese J-20, European FCAS and Tempest projects can be seen as first tier advanced fighter projects, what about the rest?

This is intended to provide a single news and discussion platforn for the numerous other advanced fighter projects. Very briefly, these are:

F-3

Japanese project
Developer: Mitsubishi

KF-X

South Korean project
Developer: Korean Aircraft Industries
Others involved : Indonesian Aerospace

TF-X

Turkish project.
Developer: Turkish Aerospace Industries
Others involved: BAE Systems

AMCA

Indian project
Developer: Aeronautical Development Agency
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:46 pm

Korea Kicks Off Stealth Fighter Program

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... ogram.html
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:15 pm

Thailand is looking to become a development partner for their next fighter aircraft. They have enacted a new defence procurement law that states Thailand mist be involved in the software development of the equipment it acquires. While their acquisition of a new fighter is apparently still a few years away they could take an early position in one of these new programs.

Not really sure which of the potential programs fits Thailand, perhaps the KF-X?

Thailand Denies F-35, To Buy New Jets If Allowed Joint Development

The Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) will not purchase the F-35 fighter jets owing to its new policy of buying defence hardware only if allowed participation in the software development programme.


"We are implementing a 'pur­chase-and-develop' policy in our procurement plans, which we intend to begin enforcing in the next 3-5 years," Air force commander ACM Maanat Wongwat was quoted as saying by Bangkok Post on Monday.

"The air force has a policy of not purchasing ready-made aircraft, and the F-35 manufacturer has yet to sell its jet to a buyer who wants to participate in the development of the fighter jets' software programmes," Wongwat added.

According to the new "Concept of Project Requirements (COPR)" policy, the air force will purchase defence and strategic hardware only if it is allowed to take part in the development of the software used to operate the products. The RTAF hopes to gain from technology and expertise transfer in the process.

"We have to also put our own heart and soul into the weapons and military hardware that we're going to buy. It's not that the airframe isn't that important, but the software is important too as it is the brain of a fighter jet. That's why we have to take part in developing it," said ACM Maanat.

A source at the RTAF said the air force is preparing to set up a committee to draft the COPR for the purchase of a new fleet of fighter jets, which will be announced when the RTAF begins looking for potential jet suppliers.
...

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25623 ... evelopment
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:15 am

From a Janes article earlier this year:

The Japanese Ministry of Defense (MoD) has confirmed to Jane’s its plans to pursue a “Japan-led” programme to develop a next-generation fighter aircraft that will replace its Mitsubishi F-2 multirole combat platform in the 2030s.


https://www.janes.com/article/86159/jap ... re-fighter

In another article below, the anticipated development cost of the F-3 is reported to be in the region of $45 billion (5 trillion yen). Would Japan proceed without a partner to share some of the cost? If not, who might that partner be?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... -jet-52277
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:08 am

art wrote:
From a Janes article earlier this year:

The Japanese Ministry of Defense (MoD) has confirmed to Jane’s its plans to pursue a “Japan-led” programme to develop a next-generation fighter aircraft that will replace its Mitsubishi F-2 multirole combat platform in the 2030s.


https://www.janes.com/article/86159/jap ... re-fighter

In another article below, the anticipated development cost of the F-3 is reported to be in the region of $45 billion (5 trillion yen). Would Japan proceed without a partner to share some of the cost? If not, who might that partner be?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... -jet-52277

To me Japan seems a good fit for the UK Tempest program. UK and Japan have been warming to each other lately and are working on an upgrade to the Meteor. If they are serious about a partner then that seems the best bet but would likely require some compromises from both sides.

$45 billion is an incredible sum to take on themselves...
 
mxaxai
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:14 pm

Ozair wrote:
$45 billion is an incredible sum to take on themselves...

I would hope that this includes the initial production batch. If they do seek a foreign partner, and that partner isn't the USA, either of the European programs could work. One is looking for partners with engineering capacity and the other is searching for funding. Japan has both.

I wonder why the F-35 doesn't cut it, seeing how it is generally considered to be as good or better than anything in production or development. Japan is a customer and partner already.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:31 am

mxaxai wrote:
If they do seek a foreign partner, and that partner isn't the USA, either of the European programs could work. One is looking for partners with engineering capacity and the other is searching for funding. Japan has both.


Would make sense to join forces with FCAS or Tempest. Problem is that Japan wants to lead its own project to revive/maintain an indigenous fast jet design and manufacturing capability, so I don't see Japan joining a European project at the moment.

I wonder if Taiwan would be interested (if politically acceptable to Japan). Both Japan and Taiwan feel threatened by China. Taiwan has an aerospace industry and 300 or so fighters in its inventory, so could make a useful contribution and buy quite a few F-3's.
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:46 am

art wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
If they do seek a foreign partner, and that partner isn't the USA, either of the European programs could work. One is looking for partners with engineering capacity and the other is searching for funding. Japan has both.


Would make sense to join forces with FCAS or Tempest. Problem is that Japan wants to lead its own project to revive/maintain an indigenous fast jet design and manufacturing capability, so I don't see Japan joining a European project at the moment.

Hence my statement that a compromise from both sides would be needed. I don't think FCAS is a good fit, they won't have much of a say and the main work has already been carved up by Dassault and Airbus while Tempest seems to still have some possibilities. It might be that they could still progress their own domestic airframe design but share technology between Tempest/F-3, perhaps common software, sensors or even engines? That would retain a Japanese looking aircraft while lowering overall cost of development.

art wrote:
I wonder if Taiwan would be interested (if politically acceptable to Japan). Both Japan and Taiwan feel threatened by China. Taiwan has an aerospace industry and 300 or so fighters in its inventory, so could make a useful contribution and buy quite a few F-3's.

Would be a political storm given Japan currently is a policy supporter of One China. Japanese/Chinese relations have been worsening though so a significant re-engagement with Taiwan is possible although unlikely. Would Japan be happy working/developing an aircraft with Taiwan that has a reputation for being riddled with Chinese spies? Taiwan has just released an advanced trainer aircraft and has also started work on a new fighter sized engine so i think they would be open to a joint development, even as a junior partner.

Both sides would have similar requirements for a new airframe that is A2A focused, probably a large A2A missile payload, high dash speed but ability to loiter for long periods, excellent sensor package.

mxaxai wrote:
Ozair wrote:
$45 billion is an incredible sum to take on themselves...

I would hope that this includes the initial production batch.

Not sure but if they go alone they will have to develop the full spectrum of technology from engine, avionics, materials, stealth shaping and associated systems. I could easily see that approaching that US$30+ billion mark or more.

mxaxai wrote:
I wonder why the F-35 doesn't cut it, seeing how it is generally considered to be as good or better than anything in production or development. Japan is a customer and partner already.

I wonder why Japan doesn't look at the loyal wingman concept a bit closer. It would seem to be the perfect fit for their requirements. Use the F-35 in smaller numbers but design and build large numbers of loyal wingman that can loft the payload required with long loiter time and potentially good kinematics.
 
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:59 pm

Will Turkey's invasion of Syria affect the T-FX programme? Donald Trump is currently talking of taking steps to damage the Turkish economy. If Erdogan persists in attacks in Syria and the US applies sanctions, I wonder if that will result in BAE being pushed into suspending its T-FX activities. I recall that during development of the Indian LCA the FCS was being developed in conjunction with LM. After India conducted a nuclear test, further LM involvement was embargoed by the US administration and India had to develop the FCS on its own.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:19 am

ADEX: Full-sized KAI KF-X mock-up unveiled

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ed-461464/

A modest design but very low development cost at an estimated $7.2 billion. Prototype scheduled for 2021. I wonder if there is an export market for a cheap stealthier twin engine fighter.
 
texl1649
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:46 am

The KF-X has substantial partnerships with Indonesia, and also Lockheed, United Tech., Martin Baker, GE. Somehow the Koreans sought to get Lockheed to do 20 percent of the development cost, in exchange for an F-35 buy. They’ve been battling export limits since 2015 I think, from the US but if that is overcome (doing their own AESA radar locally now for instance), I don’t know why the Thai interest couldn’t be rolled into a share/buy.

Japan’s willingness to work with the Koreans I doubt highly, but I also am skeptical they will fund so much as indicated. Not really that much to be gained that couldn’t be much more cheaply acquired with further F-35 buys.
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:34 pm

art wrote:
ADEX: Full-sized KAI KF-X mock-up unveiled

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ed-461464/

A modest design but very low development cost at an estimated $7.2 billion. Prototype scheduled for 2021. I wonder if there is an export market for a cheap stealthier twin engine fighter.

The market here is probably for non US aligned nations who likely cannot acquire the F-35. I expect given the production volume the F-35 will likely remain cheaper to acquire and perhaps similar to sustain long term. Even then, the KF-X is still planned to use the F414 so there will remain some US scrutiny. The problem with this market space is it isn’t great and already quite contested. Rafale and Eurofighter will want to continue exports, Gripen E is also there, China and Russia as well. What does the KF-X bring or how does it distinguish itself in the market compared to the previous airframes?

Interestingly, an article published today by DefenseNews indicates continued budgetary uncertainly for the KF-X...

South Korea’s future fighter program at risk, even as development moves along


...

Despite development progress, there are signs of challenges in the jet fighter program, including a potential funding loophole. That’s because Indonesia, the only international partner of the KF-X, has been backtracking from its original commitment to investing 20 percent of the development costs. KAI is obliged to pay for 20 percent, and the government is to fund the remainder.

Under a 2016 deal, Indonesia is obliged to pay around $1.3 billion to acquire up to 48 jets called IF-X in Indonesia and get the transfer of fighter jet technologies.

But the South Asian nation has paid only $190 million, some 13 percent of its financial commitment, citing domestic budgetary constraints. As of July, Indonesia has funding shortfall of $250 million, according to DAPA officials.
Jakarta, instead of cash, has offered to make payment in kind, including the provision of CN235 transport aircraft produced by Indonesian Aerospace, also known as PTDI, under a license.
Indonesia also reportedly asked to renegotiate the terms of deals on the KF-X/IF-X, with a focus on getting more technology transfer from South Korea.
“It’s a thorny issue,” a DAPA source said, asking not to be named. “The two governments have been in consultations over the funding issue but have yet to narrow a gap.”

...

https://www.defensenews.com/2019/10/15/ ... ves-along/

I doubt Indonesia will remain a reliable partner especially if they remain keen on increasing technology transfer. In that context maybe for Taiwan the KF-X is a better option than for the Japanese program to co-develop noting the similar non-recognition of Taiwan by South Korea?

Some other issues which indicate to me the program is probably being too ambitious,
The KF-X Block I will not have an internal weapons carriage, which is planned for subsequent production blocks.

That seems a crazy idea! If you want internal carriage do it from the start, designing that into a later aircraft is essentially creating a brand new airframe and not simply a new production block…
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:48 pm

Ozair wrote:
The KF-X Block I will not have an internal weapons carriage, which is planned for subsequent production blocks.

That seems a crazy idea! If you want internal carriage do it from the start, designing that into a later aircraft is essentially creating a brand new airframe and not simply a new production block…


I'm no hardware designer but surely they mean to design an airframe with a weapons bay, albeit incomplete, to be used for internal carriage at a later point.
 
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:05 pm

art wrote:
Ozair wrote:
The KF-X Block I will not have an internal weapons carriage, which is planned for subsequent production blocks.

That seems a crazy idea! If you want internal carriage do it from the start, designing that into a later aircraft is essentially creating a brand new airframe and not simply a new production block…


I'm no hardware designer but surely they mean to design an airframe with a weapons bay, albeit incomplete, to be used for internal carriage at a later point.


Well, why not complete it? You want to know that your design works right? If it doesn't work at a later point, you still need to redesign it, seems so fundamental to the airframe. So I do not get this either.
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:18 pm

defensenews reports that Turkey is hoping for Russian help for the TF-X programme if it buys Su-35.

...Turkey is struggling to design and develop its first indigenous fighter jet. Turkish officials originally hoped to fly the “national fighter jet” in 2023, but industry sources say this is an unrealistic target.

A government official said any Su-35 deal would be an off-the-shelf purchase. “All the same, we would expect our Russian partners to assist our fighter jet program with some technology transfer,” he said.


https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/10 ... -jet-deal/

Is there a realisation in Turkey that executing the TF-X programme appears to be beyond the capability of the Turkish aerospace industry?
 
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:12 pm

AMCA news

The defence establishment plans to seek the Cabinet Committee on Security’s approval for the detailed design and prototype development of the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) by early next year.


Rollout of prototype envisaged 2024-2025
Maiden flight envisaged 1 year later
Production start envisaged 2029

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 798166.cms
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:41 am

Seems a bit presumptive for South Korea to seek this integration of Meteor onto the KF-X given it has yet to even fly. It is certainly good news for the aircraft and also good news for the missile given it is a second partner in the region looking at the Meteor.

Wonder how this impacts South Korean use of Meteor in the future as well with their F-35s certainly capable of taking the missile now the UK is paying for its F-35 integration.

MBDA to integrate Meteor BVRAAM onto RoKAF’s future KF-X fighter

MBDA Missile Systems announced on 22 November that it has been awarded a contract by Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) for the integration of the Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) onto the Republic of Korea Air Force's (RoKAF's) future KF-X fighter aircraft.

"The contract includes integration support to KAI, transfer of know-how and manufacture of test equipment for the KF-X integration and trials campaign," said the company in a statement, without providing any details about the value of the contract or its expected completion date.

MBDA's CEO, Éric Béranger, was quoted as saying, "We're very pleased to mark this next and important step in our partnership with KAI and the Korean Defence Acquisition Program Administration [DAPA]. South Korea is a strategic market for MBDA, and we're proud that Meteor will be providing KF-X with the world's most potent air-to-air capability."

As Jane's previously reported, the Meteor has been described by industry and military officials as providing a step-change in air-to-air combat capabilities. Whereas similar-type missiles have a relatively short boost-phase after launch, after which they glide to the target while bleeding energy, the Meteorʼs ramjet propulsion system means it is propelled up to the point of impact. This reduces the adversary aircraft's chances of escaping the missile and gives the pilot more assurance of success when engaging enemy aircraft.

MBDA's announcement comes after KAI displayed in mid-October a full-scale mock-up of the KF-X at the Seoul International Aerospace and Defence Exhibition (ADEX) 2019. KAI also showcased a mock-up of the KF-X's cockpit. As is the trend for modern combat aircraft today, the KF-X will feature a large-area display in place of the traditional multifunctional display units.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/92836/mbd ... -x-fighter
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:18 am

Are we talking about fighters that have similar capability as the F-35, or more like light attack planes.

I could see the T-7 become a cheap light attack type of plane, even some interception roles with the right sensor networks added.

To be a full 5th gen fighter or trying to go toward 6th would have incredible development costs, can the smaller firms / countries able to cover this?
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:42 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
Are we talking about fighters that have similar capability as the F-35, or more like light attack planes.

I could see the T-7 become a cheap light attack type of plane, even some interception roles with the right sensor networks added.

If you consider that the thread is titled Second tier advanced fighter projects then we are talking about both 4.5 and potential 5th gen aircraft outside of Europe, Russia, China and the US as evidenced by the suggestion of the F-3, KF-X, TF-X and AMCA. I wouldn’t call the T-7 advanced from the perspective of fighter technology but may be advanced in its build. I also don’t expect the T-7 to be competitive to the above listed aircraft in a fighter V fighter engagement.

If we wanted to compare potential rivals to the T-7 it would probably include Gripen, Tejas, JF-17, T-50, M-346 etc.

JayinKitsap wrote:
To be a full 5th gen fighter or trying to go toward 6th would have incredible development costs, can the smaller firms / countries able to cover this?

Japan is looking at those costs with their F-3, India seems committed to the AMCA costing a lot while the KF-X and TF-X are really 4.5gen aircraft given external weapons.
 
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:37 pm

art wrote:
A modest design but very low development cost at an estimated $7.2 billion. Prototype scheduled for 2021. I wonder if there is an export market for a cheap stealthier twin engine fighter.

If KAI could keep the price competitive with its 2nd Tier peers and the capabilities consistent with their claims, I could imagine small air forces being interested in it...particularly the PAF if they still haven't acquired an MRF by the time the KF-X goes into production.....

Image
https://newsassets.cirium.com/assets/ge ... emid=79574

Image
https://newsassets.cirium.com/assets/ge ... emid=79067

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... it-461492/


This in view of the KF-X's expected commonality with the PAF's fleet of FA-50s...and the already established lines of support with the OEM. The "stealth" aspect is probably a lesser consideration.



Ozair wrote:
I wouldn’t call the T-7 advanced from the perspective of fighter technology but may be advanced in its build. I also don’t expect the T-7 to be competitive to the above listed aircraft in a fighter V fighter engagement.

If we wanted to compare potential rivals to the T-7 it would probably include Gripen, Tejas, JF-17, T-50, M-346 etc.

KAI advertise the KF-X as roughly equivalent to Block 70 Falcons and early Hornets.
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Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:08 pm

Devilfish wrote:

Ozair wrote:
I wouldn’t call the T-7 advanced from the perspective of fighter technology but may be advanced in its build. I also don’t expect the T-7 to be competitive to the above listed aircraft in a fighter V fighter engagement.

If we wanted to compare potential rivals to the T-7 it would probably include Gripen, Tejas, JF-17, T-50, M-346 etc.

KAI advertise the KF-X as roughly equivalent to Block 70 Falcons and early Hornets.

What does the KF-X have to do with that list though? The suggestion was the T-7 might be competitive to these 2nd tier programs but it is an advance trainer, not a built for purpose fighter jet as the KF-X is planned to be.

If the Koreans are only aiming for F-16Blk 70 capability then they are wasting their time and money considering exports. It won't be competitive against an F-16 on the export market given the number of F-16s that are and will remain in service for the next 30 years.
 
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:11 pm

Ozair wrote:
What does the KF-X have to do with that list though?

The list included the Gripen...and in my mind this qualifies.....

Image
https://scontent-dus1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5E43080E


Ozair wrote:
If the Koreans are only aiming for F-16Blk 70 capability then they are wasting their time and money considering exports. It won't be competitive against an F-16 on the export market given the number of F-16s that are and will remain in service for the next 30 years.

I think the Koreans' primary goals are self-sufficiency in things they could carry out and to develop local technology -- the export potential is just an offshoot. However, if they would be able to offer the KF-X cheaper than a Block 70 Viper for export successfully, then that could be the basis for the KF-X's further development which the twilight Falcon cannot look forward to any longer.
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Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:10 am

Devilfish wrote:
Ozair wrote:
What does the KF-X have to do with that list though?

The list included the Gripen...and in my mind this qualifies.....

The Gripen E hovers just outside the lightweight fighter category while the Gripen C is firmly inside it, either way both aircraft are underpowered for the fighter mission. Gripen E is unlikely to be competitive on the international market not only for its cost but capability. If we have learnt anything from the Gripen program it is that nations simply aren’t interested in a lightweight fighter except for domestic industry. The Gripen hasn’t won a single competition and continues to be beaten by the F-16 for those smaller nations seeking or modernizing their fighter fleet.

Devilfish wrote:
[I think the Koreans' primary goals are self-sufficiency in things they could carry out and to develop local technology -- the export potential is just an offshoot. However, if they would be able to offer the KF-X cheaper than a Block 70 Viper for export successfully, then that could be the basis for the KF-X's further development which the twilight Falcon cannot look forward to any longer.

Sure but have we found a single fighter manufacturer that has made a realistic assessment on their export potential? The KF-X is already looking overly complex given the desire to have two separate airframes (first design with external weapons and later design incorporating an internal weapons bay). That doesn’t make the aircraft cheap. It uses a US engine so there will be export restrictions or US approval required for the sale and the jury is out right now on the capability of the South Koreans to make a jet that is comparable in capability to the Blk 70.

Once you add the other 2nd tier jets into the market, as well as evolving Rafales, Eurofighters, the market penetration and value of the F-35, and the brigade of light fighters coming along the export potential appears slim. Sure they could win the PAF order but frankly would anyone care? Any future PAF fighter jet capability is token anyway.
 
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:46 am

Ozair wrote:
The Gripen E hovers just outside the lightweight fighter category while the Gripen C is firmly inside it, either way both aircraft are underpowered for the fighter mission. Gripen E is unlikely to be competitive on the international market not only for its cost but capability. If we have learnt anything from the Gripen program it is that nations simply aren’t interested in a lightweight fighter except for domestic industry. The Gripen hasn’t won a single competition and continues to be beaten by the F-16 for those smaller nations seeking or modernizing their fighter fleet.


Didn't the Saab product win the Brazilian competition?
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Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:54 am

AtomicGarden wrote:
Didn't the Saab product win the Brazilian competition?

No, the Super Hornet was almost certainly going to be selected but the reports of NSA spying on Brazil then lost it for Boeing before a contract was signed.

Brazil awarded a $4.5 billion contract to Saab AB on Wednesday to replace its aging fleet of fighter jets, a surprise coup for the Swedish company after news of U.S. spying on Brazilians helped derail Boeing’s chances for the deal.

...

Until earlier this year, Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet had been considered the front runner. But revelations of spying by the U.S. National Security Agency in Brazil, including personal communication by Rousseff, led Brazil to believe it could not trust a U.S. company.

“The NSA problem ruined it for the Americans,” a Brazilian government source said on condition of anonymity.
A U.S. source close to the negotiations said that whatever intelligence the spying had delivered for the American government was unlikely to outweigh the commercial cost of the revelations.
“Was that worth 4 billion dollars?” the source asked.

...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-braz ... 1C20131218
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:45 pm

Japan Could Pick And Choose Components From Tempest

Japan says it wants international collaboration in developing its Future Fighter for the 2030s, but it wants to lead the project despite limited experience in fighter development. And it aims at a fighter much larger than any operated by a western European country; the U.S. is not offering a possible joint project.

That seems to leave only the choice of indigenous development, perhaps with help from a foreign technical partner.

Nevertheless, participation in the UK’s Tempest program may also be feasible. The Tempest project—which includes the Royal Air Force, BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce and MBDA—has a cooperation concept that leaves scope for Japan and other partners to use their own systems, weapons, propulsion and even airframes, says Air Commodore Daniel Storr, head of combat aircraft acquisition at the UK Defense Ministry.


https://aviationweek.com/defense/japan- ... ts-tempest

Seems like a sensible approach to me - outside contractor for bits Japan cannot do (or would take a long time to develop) and economies of scale benefitting both parties.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:32 pm

Japan under pressure to team with US contractor rather than BAE for F-3 development

WASHINGTON / TOKYO --- The Trump administration is pressuring Japan to choose a US defence company to develop jointly a replacement for its F-2 fighter jets as Tokyo considers a British alternative to cut its reliance on American weapons.

Pentagon officials have stepped up talks with Japan amid concerns the US could lose out to BAE Systems, the UK defence contractor developing a sixth generation Tempest stealth fighter, according to three people familiar with discussions about the F-3 programme.


https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... ghter.html

Surprise, surprise... Looks like co-operation with Tempest developer is under consideration, not just a BAE fantasy.
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:37 pm

art wrote:
Japan Could Pick And Choose Components From Tempest

Seems like a sensible approach to me - outside contractor for bits Japan cannot do (or would take a long time to develop) and economies of scale benefitting both parties.



art wrote:
Japan under pressure to team with US contractor rather than BAE for F-3 development

Surprise, surprise... Looks like co-operation with Tempest developer is under consideration, not just a BAE fantasy.


Japan is somewhat between a rock and a hard place for this. I see the rationale for this replacement and going for a domestic solution with partner involvement but they are also pushing a quite aggressive timeline. I’m not confident Tempest, or associated technologies, will be ready in the timeframe Japan require for F-2 replacement but the prospect of co-development with LM again is going to be pricey.

I’d still favour the Tempest route myself as I think the end result will be more optimised to what Japan is seeking from a domestic program. Perhaps the solution is to top up more F-35s in the early 2030s, given they will already have a very sizable domestically manufactured fleet, and take the pressure off the F-2 replacement by keeping a subset of F-2 aircraft in service, the lowest hours or best condition, until the F-3 program delivers a mature airframe.
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:36 pm

Turkey is again looking to the UK and RR to assist with the TF-X, in this case the engine. From the article first flight is now in the 2025-26 timeframe and unless an agreement is made soon I expect that date will slip as well. TF-X could fly with an alternative engine while they wait, similar to a number of other aircraft programs over the last 30 years, but it doesn’t bode well. The engine can take every bit as long to develop, especially in Turkey’s case with no previous indigenous fighter engine.

Turkey to Rolls-Royce: Let’s renegotiate terms for TF-X fighter jet support

The Turkish government is keen to revive talks with Rolls-Royce for the design and production of its first indigenous fighter jet, the TF-X, a top cabinet minister has said.

Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said the government wants to move forward with its planned cooperation with Britain for the production of the new-generation aircraft. But Turkey must first select an engine for the TF-X and then finalize the aircraft’s full design — a process that has has lagged behind schedule.

Its aerospace and procurement officials now aim to fly the TF-X in the 2025-2026 time frame, despite an original target of 2023.

...

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... t-support/
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:51 pm

Engine solution for Indian AMCA proving elusive

Earlier this year India and the United States have suspended cooperation on jet engine technology under the Defense Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) due to lack of progress of the joint working group which failed to make any progress due to stiff US export controls and General Electric which is not keen on transfer of its core proprietary technology to India.


Source: http://idrw.org/

I have the impression that India does not grasp that, whatever encouraging ToT noises engine OEM's might make, when it comes to the crunch in negotiations the technology sought is never actually available. I wonder if Turkey will fare any better in trying to develop an indigenous engine for the TF-X.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:13 pm

MBDA to integrate Meteor missile onto the KF-X

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/mbda-to ... e-fighter/
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:16 pm

art wrote:
MBDA to integrate Meteor missile onto the KF-X

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/mbda-to ... e-fighter/

George is a bit late with this story, I posted the same news from Janes over a month ago on this thread.
 
texl1649
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:16 pm

Does the USN FA-XX program yet qualify as second tier? It got a very paltry budget amount and it seems unlikely to produce any 21st century successor to the Tomcat in the next 20 years.
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:59 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Does the USN FA-XX program yet qualify as second tier? It got a very paltry budget amount and it seems unlikely to produce any 21st century successor to the Tomcat in the next 20 years.

The F/A-XX program isn't at the stage where significant funding levels are required. From last year,

The Navy’s analysis of alternatives (AoA) for its next-generation air-dominance fighter aircraft is almost finished, a Navy admiral told Congress.

“That AoA will be complete this spring,” Rear Adm. Scott D. Conn, director of air warfare in the Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, said during an April 4 hearing of the Tactical Air and Ground Forces subcommittee of the House Armed Services Committee.

“The final report will come out this summer, and that will inform future choices reflected in future budget cycles in terms of what we need to do to get after the lethality that we need at a cost that we can afford.”

...

https://seapowermagazine.org/next-gen-f ... in-summer/

I expect the F/A-XX funding to improve once the USN actually decides on the direction they want to go but even then what the USN wants going forward will be very dependent on what they can afford. USN funding is so tight in the 2020/30s with SSBN replacement, two Ford CVNs, increased SSNs to maintain boat numbers etc that what emerges from F/A-XX may not be that similar to the USAF efforts for a 6th gen platform.

Even with a lower USN funding level what, if anything, that does come from F/A-XX is still going to be at least a generation ahead of what the second tier projects are likely to develop and deliver.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:01 pm

Turkey does not envisage T-FX service introduction before 2030's so may need something to plug the gap created by the missing F-35's.

With the new U.S. National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) in effect, it is highly likely that Turkey will not be able to receive its F-35 multirole stealth aircraft in the foreseeable future. The remaining 5th-generation airpower project, the MMU (Milli Muharip Ucak – the national combat aircraft), in cooperation with the British BAE systems, could start equipping the air force with combat-ready squadrons as early as the 2030s. At present, the Turkish Air Force operates the 4th-generation F-16s as the backbone of its doctrinal order of battle. Thus, in the 2020s, Turkey would need a feasible stopgap, either through an interim 4.5th-generation solution or a comprehensive F-16 modernization. An alternative way forward could be boosting the SAM (surface to air missile) capabilities to foster anti-access / area denial (A2/AD) posture while delegating air-ground missions in permissive operational environments to light attack aircraft (Armed Hurkus) and to UAVs with higher payloads and advanced sensors. Still, none of these alternatives would compensate for the deep-strike and network-centric warfare capabilities offered by the F-35.


https://www.aa.com.tr/en/analysis/turke ... ng/1691178

Would POTUS allow F-16 updates? Assuming he would not, what fighters might Turkey acquire and how long would they need to use them? My guess is FOC capability T-FX will not be inducted in large numbers much before 2035, so could Turkey acquire a few squadrons of used Typhoons?
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:06 am

art wrote:
Would POTUS allow F-16 updates? Assuming he would not, what fighters might Turkey acquire and how long would they need to use them?

I think F-16 upgrades are possible but they seem unlikely to me given the current political issues. The Eurofighter seems a much better option and, as I have suggested in other threads, that Turkey could move to local production of Eurofighters quite easily. It would also be a smooth transition given they continue to seek BAE support for TF-X. The stickler remains how much involvement Turkey want Russia to have but I personally still believe there is little Turkey and Russia have in common long term and continued and closer European engagement is the future of Turkey.

art wrote:
My guess is FOC capability T-FX will not be inducted in large numbers much before 2035, so could Turkey acquire a few squadrons of used Typhoons?

Probably not much point in used Tranche One Eurofighters which will never receive an AESA radar. Better to go for local production, perhaps with an initial 18-24 delivered from a European production line, and then the rest locally manufactured. Three to four years should be enough time for Turkish companies to take on manufacture of a large number of the components, especially if the companies are previous F-35 component manufacturers.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:50 am

Ozair wrote:
Probably not much point in used Tranche One Eurofighters which will never receive an AESA radar. Better to go for local production, perhaps with an initial 18-24 delivered from a European production line, and then the rest locally manufactured. Three to four years should be enough time for Turkish companies to take on manufacture of a large number of the components, especially if the companies are previous F-35 component manufacturers.


There are still 4 Typhoon FAL's. I guess the one in Germany will stay busy for a long time. The UK line might stay alive for some time if the Saudi/Yemen situation changes and SA wants more frames. I don't see any future for those in Spain and Italy, so tools and equipment from one/both of those could be shipped to Turkey to set up an FAL there. As you say, some component manufacture could move to Turkey, too.

Turkey could acquire better expertise in manufacturing, too.

Would be win/win, wouldn't it?
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:07 pm

art wrote:
There are still 4 Typhoon FAL's. I guess the one in Germany will stay busy for a long time. The UK line might stay alive for some time if the Saudi/Yemen situation changes and SA wants more frames. I don't see any future for those in Spain and Italy, so tools and equipment from one/both of those could be shipped to Turkey to set up an FAL there. As you say, some component manufacture could move to Turkey, too.

Turkey could acquire better expertise in manufacturing, too.

Would be win/win, wouldn't it?

A recent article from AIN covered the current state of the respective Eurofighter production lines,

With the flight of ISPA 6, a new era is beginning for the Eurofighter Typhoon even as production of the aircraft to meet the requirements of the original four partner nations is drawing to a close. The Royal Air Force received its final Tranche 3A Typhoon (ZK439, BS155) from the BAE Systems Warton production line on September 27, the last of 159 aircraft delivered to the Royal Air Force. The Warton final assembly line will also be responsible for the 24 Typhoons ordered by Qatar, and there are still hopes of an order for 48 more aircraft from Saudi Arabia.

In Spain, the final C.16 Eurofighter (SS058, C.16-78, 10235, 14-36) has been delivered, the last of 72 Spanish aircraft (58 single-seaters and 14 two-seaters). The last German Eurofighter EF2000 (31+53, GS113) was delivered from the Manching line on December 17, 2019, the last of 143 Eurofighters for the Luftwaffe, at least for now. (The Typhoon name is not used officially in Germany or Spain). The final Italian F-2000, (MM7356, IS082), was due to make its first flight before the end of 2019, and the Italian assembly line will also produce the 28 aircraft for Kuwait.

Though notional final deliveries for Germany and Spain have now taken place, further production for Germany seems likely. The German government and Airbus Defence and Space have launched the Quadriga project to replace the Luftwaffe’s 31 Tranche 1 aircraft with seven new-build two-seat Eurofighters and 26 or even 31 single-seaters. The Eurofighter is also the front-runner to meet the Luftwaffe’s 85-aircraft requirement for a Tornado replacement. These would be split between two batches, 45 aircraft with strategic capabilities, and 40 to meet the Luftgestützte Wirkung im Elektromagnetischen Spektrum requirement with an electronic attack and escort jammer capability. Spain might also select the Eurofighter to meet its requirement for an F/A-18 Hornet replacement.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... er-typhoon

The key for any Turkish acquisition of Eurofighter is Italy as they have regional responsibility for sales/exports to Turkey. Given recent issues it doesn’t look good that Turkey would/could acquire from Italy.

Italy to block arms exports to Turkey - Di Maio

Italy is to block arms exports to Turkey because of its Syrian intervention, Foreign Minister Luigi Di Maio said Monday. He said he would sign a decree to that effect in the coming hours. Di Maio said the decree would halt "the export of arms to Turkey regarding the future of upcoming contracts and the upcoming commitments". Speaking after an EU foreign ministers meeting, Di Maio said "it was a very important foreign council in which Italy's request to all European States was to block arms exports to Turkey in future. "Because we cannot accept what it is doing. "Europe is speaking with a single voice today and all the States condemn what Turkey is doing in Syrian territory and above all everyone vowed to block arms exports".

http://www.ansa.it/english/news/2019/10/14/italy-to-block-arms-exports-to-turkey-di-maio_51e02174-9411-4445-8b44-0d9fca505e37.html

So the question now becomes whether a separate Eurofighter partner could supply aircraft and manufacturing to Turkey and whether any of the other partners would approve it? Based on above that may be unlikely now…
 
mxaxai
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:19 am

art wrote:
Would POTUS allow F-16 updates? Assuming he would not, what fighters might Turkey acquire and how long would they need to use them? My guess is FOC capability T-FX will not be inducted in large numbers much before 2035, so could Turkey acquire a few squadrons of used Typhoons?

One might question which enemy Turkey wants to attack against whom the F-16 is insufficient. Stealth aircraft are only operated by NATO / EU, Russia and Israel (among Turkey's neighbors). Advanced radar guided missiles, again only NATO / EU, Russia & their allies and Israel. Typhoons would be useless in a conflict against the western allies. Support for their brand new S-400 missile system would quickly vanish if they somehow upset Russia. Operations against Kurdistan, Libya etc only need to really care about MANPADS. I think Turkey can easily rely on the F-16 for another 15 years without compromising their security.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:56 am

mxaxai wrote:
One might question which enemy Turkey wants to attack against whom the F-16 is insufficient.


There’s plenty of ‘em, doesn’t have to be Israel. Egypt has a large and advanced air force including like-capability F-16s, as does Jordan. Syrian and Libyan rebels can get ahold of relatively advanced SAMs. Plus don’t forget Greece, even if their air force isn’t top notch.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:44 pm

TF-X aim is first flight with Turkish engine in 2029

Interestingly it is reported that there there are hopes of involving Malaysia in tproduction of the fighter.

Any realistic chance of an indigenous engine being developed and tested in time for a 2029 flight? Of course, if the engine is actually a development of the Eurojet engine used in the Eurofighter, that deadline should be achieved without too much difficulty.

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2020 ... ne-by-2029
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:31 pm

art wrote:
TF-X aim is first flight with Turkish engine in 2029

Interestingly it is reported that there there are hopes of involving Malaysia in tproduction of the fighter.

Interesting. DefenseNews is also reporting on the offer to Malaysia but also stating that they are offering four other Asian nations the opportunity to participate, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kazakhstan and surprisingly Indonesia. The first three make some sense and Pakistan has an existing relationship with Turkey and arms exports but seem pretty happy with their Chinese relationship as well. Bangladesh and Kazakhstan both have Su-30 on order and don’t look like natural fits for cooperating with Turkey on a high technology aviation program. Playing the Muslim card likely isn’t going to work for those nations acquisition and I expect that Russia would offer the Su-57 to keep those nations operating Russian aircraft if a 5th gen aircraft is required.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/01 ... t-program/

art wrote:
Any realistic chance of an indigenous engine being developed and tested in time for a 2029 flight? Of course, if the engine is actually a development of the Eurojet engine used in the Eurofighter, that deadline should be achieved without too much difficulty.

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2020 ... ne-by-2029

I don’t see a way Turkey will develop a viable engine by 2029 unless they have a strong international partner such as RR.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:34 pm

India now has pretensions of developing its own engine for the AMCA...

The Indian air force is likely to insist on a clause for development of an indigenous aero engine when it clears a multi-billion dollar programme to go ahead with the next generation Advanced Multirole Combat Aircraft (AMCA) by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).


Sources said that while the first two squadrons of the AMCA will be powered by a variant of American origin GE 414 engine, the project will be clearing in the coming months on the condition that a parallel process be initiated by DRDO to develop a aero engine plant with foreign collaboration. “A clear path towards developing our own aero engine is essential and should be done along the AMCA programme which is being supported. If needed, foreign collaboration from western nations that have advanced technologies can be sought,” senior officials told ET.


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/iaf-to-add-clause-on-local-engines-for-amca-fighters/articleshow/73162616.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
 
angad84
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:06 am

art wrote:
India now has pretensions of developing its own engine for the AMCA...

The Indian air force is likely to insist on a clause for development of an indigenous aero engine when it clears a multi-billion dollar programme to go ahead with the next generation Advanced Multirole Combat Aircraft (AMCA) by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).


Sources said that while the first two squadrons of the AMCA will be powered by a variant of American origin GE 414 engine, the project will be clearing in the coming months on the condition that a parallel process be initiated by DRDO to develop a aero engine plant with foreign collaboration. “A clear path towards developing our own aero engine is essential and should be done along the AMCA programme which is being supported. If needed, foreign collaboration from western nations that have advanced technologies can be sought,” senior officials told ET.


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/iaf-to-add-clause-on-local-engines-for-amca-fighters/articleshow/73162616.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

No, they are asking DRDO to pick a foreign collaborator to customise a high-thrust engine for the AMCA. They want DRDO to start building on an existing engine or existing technology, neither of which exist in India, so by default foreign input is a given. If DRDO succeeds in convincing (read: lying to) the Government that they can go it alone, the blame will be laid firmly at the feet of DRDO and the MoD.
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:00 am

angad84 wrote:
No, they are asking DRDO to pick a foreign collaborator to customise a high-thrust engine for the AMCA. They want DRDO to start building on an existing engine or existing technology, neither of which exist in India, so by default foreign input is a given. If DRDO succeeds in convincing (read: lying to) the Government that they can go it alone, the blame will be laid firmly at the feet of DRDO and the MoD.

Isn’t development on the Kaveri still ongoing or has it, or at least a potential higher thrust future variant, been discounted for AMCA?
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:01 pm

According to this article in Economic Times from Augusr 2019,talks with Safran on turning the Kaveri engine into a useable engine have stalled on cost grounds. What I find remarkable is that over the course of 25+ years less than 250 million euros equivalent has been invested in the engine. When you compare this to the $2.4 billion awarded to GE and RR (both already world leaders in jet design) to design a competitor engine to the F135 used in F-35, it is peanuts. Hardly surprising that the indigenous project failed.

In the article it is estimated that it would require 4 years' work to turn Kaveri into a pukka engine.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

Personally I do not see Kaveri being ready for AMCA, given the snail-like speed of decision-making in Indian procurement. F414 engine availability means the project can still go ahead, though. Might be a better idea - no risk of project hold up because of late engine availability, engine commonality with Tejas Mk2 (otherwise known as MWF)
 
angad84
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:36 pm

Ozair wrote:
angad84 wrote:
No, they are asking DRDO to pick a foreign collaborator to customise a high-thrust engine for the AMCA. They want DRDO to start building on an existing engine or existing technology, neither of which exist in India, so by default foreign input is a given. If DRDO succeeds in convincing (read: lying to) the Government that they can go it alone, the blame will be laid firmly at the feet of DRDO and the MoD.

Isn’t development on the Kaveri still ongoing or has it, or at least a potential higher thrust future variant, been discounted for AMCA?

Work is still on in fits and starts. They're definitely going to use a non-reheat variant for the stealthy UCAV under development.

AMCA will probably be powered by a new engine -- which will leverage a lot of the Kaveri knowledge base. The good thing about S&T is that work done is never "wasted" even if you don't end up taking a product to market.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:57 pm

US or UK? Japan Nears Decision On Partner For Next-Gen Fighter

Japan plans to choose a partner as early as this summer for development of its successor to the F-2 fighter jet, weighing a proposal from the U.S., its closest ally, against a British offer that would give Tokyo greater control.


It mentions in the article that Japan has been limited with F-2...

While Japan and America worked together on the F-2, design details for key parts have not been disclosed to the Japanese side. And Tokyo cannot upgrade the planes freely, which has limited their usability.


Working with another country would do more than provide access to crucial technological expertise. With development costs for a single plane model potentially running into the tens of billions of dollars, a partnership would give Tokyo a built-in overseas marketing channel to help with the large-scale production and sales needed to ensure the project is financially viable.


Why would LM want to sell it in preference to F-35? Why would BAE want to sell it in preference to Tempest?.

I think that after investigating what sovereignty could be exercised going with LM (and assuming not enough), Japan would then have to decide if it could afford F-3 (and assuming it could not), would be forced to join the Tempest programme.

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... ghter.html
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:08 pm

art wrote:
US or UK? Japan Nears Decision On Partner For Next-Gen Fighter

Why would LM want to sell it in preference to F-35? Why would BAE want to sell it in preference to Tempest?.

Agree 100%, the only value for LM would be if the aircraft was significantly better or fulfilled a specific niche that would improve its export chances. Not doubting the Japanese ability but there is a whole slew of technologies they will need to develop to be comparable to the F-35, if a strong domestic content is needed, so I don’t expect that to occur. Boeing seem a better option. A co-development with Japan could see them having a 5th gen aircraft to offer where no one is buying SH/F-15s but how much money is Boeing going to invest in this venture with not a great outlook for return? BAE would have to see some royalty payments or as with LM have the Japanese aircraft fill a niche the generic Tempest doesn’t do well.

The fighter market for 2035 is actually looking as congested as it is already today and any Japanese program banking on export sales is probably going to be disappointed.

art wrote:
I think that after investigating what sovereignty could be exercised going with LM (and assuming not enough), Japan would then have to decide if it could afford F-3 (and assuming it could not), would be forced to join the Tempest programme.

Whatever they choose to do will come at a great cost and likely see few export sales. In that context perhaps Tempest is the better option but Japan is going to have to concede on a few points including likely the amount of Japanese content, or pay the price to have a customized variant of Tempest or F-35 hybrid.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:22 pm

Japan's new name for F-3 is F-X

The Japanese Ministry of Defence (MoD) expects to formalise a "framework" by the end of this year through which it will collaborate with a foreign partner on its programme to develop and build a next-generation fighter aircraft, the MoD has indicated to Jane's.

The MoD also confirmed that the programme is now officially termed as "F-X" and that it has proposed a new "conceptual image" of the new aircraft, which is intended to replace the Japan Air-Self-Defense Force's (JASDF's) Mitsubishi F-2 fighter aircraft in the 2030s.


https://www.janes.com/article/94001/jap ... -framework

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