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744SPX
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:42 am

Looks like a bit of an F-22/YF-23 mashup. Tailerons and thrust vectoring. Not too shabby.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:02 pm

Japan’s Ministry of Defense Reveals Concept for Next-Gen F-X Fighter

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... ghter.html
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:06 pm

 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:01 pm

art wrote:


Some interesting differences in reporting between the above article and the below from Janes. One article suggesting they are looking for a European partner while the other is trying to quash rumours that a US partner has been chosen. Whichever it is the Japanese have to get a move on if they are expecting to get an aircraft built, tested and enough available to meet the 2035 timeline for replacement of the F-2. Typical time frames for every other fighter aircraft over the last 40 years has been a 15-18 year development and test phase.

Japan keeps partnership options open on F-X fighter programme

Japan has yet to decide on whether to partner with the United States or the United Kingdom on its project to develop a next-generation fighter aircraft, although Tokyo has now confirmed that it will push ahead with a totally new design for the programme.

News reports in Japan earlier in March suggested that the US had already been selected for the partnership role but the Ministry of Defense's (MoD's) Acquisition, Technology & Logistics Agency (ATLA) told Jane's on 10 March that discussions with both the US and UK are continuing.

"We will launch a Japan-led development project with the possibility of international collaboration," a spokesperson from ATLA said. "The Japan MoD is in discussion with the US and the UK from the viewpoint of ensuring interoperability, cost effectiveness, and technical reliability. We have been exploring the possibility of co-operation with these two countries."

The spokesperson added, "There is no such fact that we have decided specific policies including partner countries. Furthermore, the Japanese MoD has excluded 'a derivative of an existing model' as an option [for the fighter aircraft development programme] and we came to the conclusion that we would develop 'a new model'."

ATLA also told Jane's that by December it aims to determine a "preliminary framework" outlining its partnership strategy. This framework is expected to formally identify its foreign industry partner and its role in the development project.

In January the MoD also confirmed that the fighter development project is named 'F-X' and released the first "conceptual image" of the new aircraft, which is intended to replace the Japan Air-Self-Defense Force's (JASDF's) Mitsubishi F-2 fighter aircraft in the 2030s.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/94820/jap ... -programme
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:56 pm

Confirmation and more info on Japan's decision to go the domestic route for their new fighter. I expect the risk mitigation for Japan will be more F-35s while they wait for the F-X to mature sufficiently. I don't expect them to be able to meet the current time frame for retiring the F-2 fleet, hence the likely need for more F-35s. They aren't saying no to an international partner but I'm not sure what value there would be for a non Japanese company to get involved in this aircraft. It will have to be something very special to attract export orders.

Japan rejects foreign plans for next-generation fighter

The Japanese Ministry of Defense's (MoD's) Acquisition, Technology & Logistics Agency (ATLA) has confirmed to Jane's that it plans to pursue a Japan-led development project of a next-generation fighter aircraft, rejecting proposals by foreign manufacturers, including the one by Lockheed Martin to develop a new stealthy aircraft by combining elements of the F-22 and F-35 fifth-generation fighters.

Tokyo aims to replace the Japan Air Self-Defense Force's (JASDF's) Mitsubishi F-2 fighter aircraft with a future fighter in the 2030s.

"Based on previous discussions, the option of 'developing derivatives of existing fighters' cannot be a candidate from the perspective of a Japan-led development, and the MoD has come to the conclusion that we will develop a new model, and also this has been communicated to Lockheed Martin," an ATLA spokesperson told Jane's on 1 April.

"We recognise we have built up enough technology to make a fighter development project possible domestically," he added, pointing out, however, that, as mentioned in the MoD's Mid-Term Defense Program (MTDP), the project includes the possibility of international collaboration.

As Jane's reported on 11 March, the United Kingdom and the United States emerged as the front-runners in Japan's fighter development project - called 'F-X' - following a series of requests for information (RFIs) in 2018.

The US offer is known to include a 'hybrid' of technologies and design features from the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor multirole fighter and the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, although companies including Boeing and Northrop Grumman also responded to the RFIs and would likely play a role in an inter-government project.

The UK partnership offer would be led by BAE Systems but would similarly involve other UK companies. This would be framed around some of the technologies and design features of the Tempest conceptual fighter that the UK is planning to develop.

...

https://www.janes.com/article/95262/jap ... on-fighter
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue May 05, 2020 4:44 am

Turkish Defense Firm Havelsan to Cooperate with TAI for Homegrown Fighter Jet

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... ghter.html
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue May 05, 2020 6:29 am

Japan has settled on using US aviation industry input for F-X development?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... ter-150526
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue May 05, 2020 9:31 am

AMCA moving towards design freeze

I wonder how much this will be delayed by the COVID-19 pandemic.

http://idrw.org/amca-final-design-freez ... n-fighter/

NB The source is highly chauvinistic so may not be objective in reporting Indian aviation. For example:

Technological benchmark being set by both developers and operators is to develop a jet that is as capable as an F-35A in stealth and much more in avionics and other technology.
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue May 05, 2020 10:40 am

art wrote:
Japan has settled on using US aviation industry input for F-X development?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... ter-150526

Not sure there is a lot of substance to the article and it doesn't seem to be based on anything official. No doubt the US manufacturers will be favourite given Europe is a long way from Japan and the US remains their strongest ally. I'm still not sure what value there is for the US Primes other than some T&M work, almost all production will be in Japan and probably little in the way of an export market.

Still, would be great if they succeeded in developing something, especially as it will likely be very Japanese in concept and design. They could always surprise us and come out with a Mecha...
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue May 05, 2020 10:42 am

art wrote:

NB The source is highly chauvinistic so may not be objective in reporting Indian aviation. For example:

Technological benchmark being set by both developers and operators is to develop a jet that is as capable as an F-35A in stealth and much more in avionics and other technology.


That is a very lofty goal given the current state of the industry and the technological base in India.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue May 05, 2020 12:05 pm

Ozair wrote:
Still, would be great if they succeeded in developing something, especially as it will likely be very Japanese in concept and design. They could always surprise us and come out with a Mecha...

Or a cute anime girl that transforms mid-air into a stealthy hypersonic F-14.
 
angad84
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue May 05, 2020 12:57 pm

art wrote:
AMCA moving towards design freeze

I wonder how much this will be delayed by the COVID-19 pandemic.

http://idrw.org/amca-final-design-freez ... n-fighter/

NB The source is highly chauvinistic so may not be objective in reporting Indian aviation. For example:

Technological benchmark being set by both developers and operators is to develop a jet that is as capable as an F-35A in stealth and much more in avionics and other technology.

trash site, would not read or share anything they put out...
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri May 15, 2020 12:36 am

Japan is in a situation where having a bleeding-edge design is more beneficial and desirable than having an entirely indigenous design free of foreign cooperation, so partnering with the US is the way to go.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri May 15, 2020 1:32 am

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Japan is in a situation where having a bleeding-edge design is more beneficial and desirable than having an entirely indigenous design free of foreign cooperation, so partnering with the US is the way to go.

As I said earlier up the thread, Japan’s strongest ally remains the US. While co-development with the UK is appealing it may not tick the interoperability box in the same way having a US partner will.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri May 15, 2020 9:20 pm

Weird, it seems that the original post my post was in reply to is currently missing....
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
DigitalSea
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat May 16, 2020 6:00 am

Will China start rapidly subsidizing the military modernization of countries like Iran & NK in response to this? I know they think they can win the long game via a strong economic plan but there's nothing set in stone that says that strategy is guaranteed. At what point do they start pushing back. Australia, Japan, & the US have been working together on important projects for the sake of deterring China. It's incredible what a rising authoritarian superpower can do to a world that remembers history, everyone's going to need to join in to stop them.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon May 18, 2020 12:29 am

DigitalSea wrote:
Will China start rapidly subsidizing the military modernization of countries like Iran & NK in response to this?


Absolutely no reason to. Don't read too much into "the enemy of my enemy is my friend:" China and the US are not necessarily enemies and I for one prefer a completely different quote: the enemy of my enemy is still potentially my enemy.

There is no genuine strategic reason for the PRC to prop up the IRI other than profit motive if the IRI wants to pay up for weapons. And the PRC actually has tremendous disincentive to prop up the DPRK because guess what the PRC like all rational governments (so not Trump) actually prize governments that are stable. So that's a huge no-go for funneling money to the DPRK.

Anybody who says otherwise has been drinking One America Network Kool-Aid to literally dangerous levels. Just make sure it's not actually bleach.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
DigitalSea
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed May 20, 2020 11:29 pm

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
DigitalSea wrote:
Will China start rapidly subsidizing the military modernization of countries like Iran & NK in response to this?


Absolutely no reason to. Don't read too much into "the enemy of my enemy is my friend:" China and the US are not necessarily enemies and I for one prefer a completely different quote: the enemy of my enemy is still potentially my enemy.

There is no genuine strategic reason for the PRC to prop up the IRI other than profit motive if the IRI wants to pay up for weapons. And the PRC actually has tremendous disincentive to prop up the DPRK because guess what the PRC like all rational governments (so not Trump) actually prize governments that are stable. So that's a huge no-go for funneling money to the DPRK.

Anybody who says otherwise has been drinking One America Network Kool-Aid to literally dangerous levels. Just make sure it's not actually bleach.


China wants to increase its arms dealing to build up dependency on Chinese hardware (similar to how the US executes), and this is already happening all around the road with huge eyes on Africa. And yes, China is very much an enemy of the United States - politically, socially, & militarily.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu May 21, 2020 7:30 pm

DigitalSea wrote:
China wants to increase its arms dealing to build up dependency on Chinese hardware (similar to how the US executes), and this is already happening all around the road with huge eyes on Africa.


That's true, but a major if not the main motivation is profit motive, or at least it's very much equal in consideration as geopolitical influence (you really can't have one without the other). Even if China has sold the weapons it has already sold to its African nations and the IRI at a relatively considerable subsidy, I doubt the profit margin is as little as razor-thin let alone a loss. Even with MAP and the Germans giving Israel military equipment for literally "free" there are tremendous economic offsets in effect.

Those economic considerations are in turn offset by negative geopolitical ramifications by supplying weapons to the DPRK unless the DPRK pays an exuberant financial cost, which they are not capable of.

And yes, China is very much an enemy of the United States - politically, socially, & militarily.


Keep drinking the OAN Kool-Aid. That's the attitude that starts wars (and global pandemics, so I hope you're feeling particularly comfortable right now too).
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
DigitalSea
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri May 22, 2020 4:18 am

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Keep drinking the OAN Kool-Aid. That's the attitude that starts wars (and global pandemics, so I hope you're feeling particularly comfortable right now too).


I'm sorry but I don't know what OAN is. And the concern for China isn't something necessarily driven by the media, especially here in the United States. China's been a problem for as long as they've been envious of becoming the dominant power of the world, which started decades ago. If it wasn't for their rapid military modernization since 2008, our politicians would still be allowing their campaign contributions to be flowing in while embracing the merits of globalization.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri May 22, 2020 6:46 pm

DigitalSea wrote:
And the concern for China isn't something necessarily driven by the media, especially here in the United States. China's been a problem for as long as they've been envious of becoming the dominant power of the world, which started decades ago. If it wasn't for their rapid military modernization since 2008, our politicians would still be allowing their campaign contributions to be flowing in while embracing the merits of globalization.


That is factually true, and they are engaging in a massive military build-up, but that's not to say the same thing as that they're our active enemies. We have competing interests with all of our closest allies including Britain, Canada and Korea. There are other means to compete strategically other than in direct military plays. Hotter heads like the President (and those who vote for him) will favor rushing into a Cold War-style matching military detente without much thought or alternative evaluation, but this more intelligently needs to be weighed against other domestic and foreign concerns and priorities.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
DigitalSea
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat May 23, 2020 5:12 am

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
[
That is factually true, and they are engaging in a massive military build-up, but that's not to say the same thing as that they're our active enemies. We have competing interests with all of our closest allies including Britain, Canada and Korea. There are other means to compete strategically other than in direct military plays. Hotter heads like the President (and those who vote for him) will favor rushing into a Cold War-style matching military detente without much thought or alternative evaluation, but this more intelligently needs to be weighed against other domestic and foreign concerns and priorities.


I tend to view those who oppose Trump & his stance on China as part of why we are in this predicament in the first place. Thankfully we have competent leadership in the White House who have finally taken some initiative to follow-through with the pivot to China and who have also inspired our legislature to engage in bi-partisan measures to decouple ourselves from the cancer that is China. I'm very much looking forward to the next four years.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat May 23, 2020 7:05 pm

I've deleted the original content as seeing that for some reason I cannot delete the post itself. Hopefully this will make the moderators happy.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed May 27, 2020 4:39 pm

Indonesia late in paying its contribution for KF-X

Launched in 2016, the KF-X project aims to develop a next-generation fighter jet and mass-produce 180 units by 2026. The project, the biggest in Korean history, needs 8 trillion and 10 trillion won for development and mass production, respectively. Indonesia is responsible for 20 percent of the development costs, or 1.8 trillion won. However, it has been delaying its payments lately, with 500.2 billion won overdue as of April.


https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... korea.html

Can Indonesia afford to stay in the programme?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed May 27, 2020 8:50 pm

art wrote:
Indonesia late in paying its contribution for KF-X

Launched in 2016, the KF-X project aims to develop a next-generation fighter jet and mass-produce 180 units by 2026. The project, the biggest in Korean history, needs 8 trillion and 10 trillion won for development and mass production, respectively. Indonesia is responsible for 20 percent of the development costs, or 1.8 trillion won. However, it has been delaying its payments lately, with 500.2 billion won overdue as of April.


https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... korea.html

Can Indonesia afford to stay in the programme?

Last year, Indonesia was hoping to pay in hardware and technology rather than cash, when they were "only" 300 billion won overdue. They were offering a number of Indonesian-built CN-235 to the ROKAF. http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/ ... 73060.html
Military and industry sources of the South Korean side, however, said receiving CN-235 aircraft or other equipment in lieu of cash would not be a preferable option.
500 billion won could buy you ~14 CN-235, or, for that matter, the two A400M that Indonesia has been interested in but cannot afford.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed May 27, 2020 10:29 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Last year, Indonesia was hoping to pay in hardware and technology rather than cash, when they were "only" 300 billion won overdue. They were offering a number of Indonesian-built CN-235 to the ROKAF. http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/ ... 73060.html
Military and industry sources of the South Korean side, however, said receiving CN-235 aircraft or other equipment in lieu of cash would not be a preferable option.
500 billion won could buy you ~14 CN-235, or, for that matter, the two A400M that Indonesia has been interested in but cannot afford.


If...
option (a) pay cash is not available
option (b) barter is not available

is...
option (c) a loan from SK available, so Indonesia can get up to date on programme payments? How else can the programme avoid stalling if part of the money to pay the developers is missing?
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed May 27, 2020 11:23 pm

art wrote:

Can Indonesia afford to stay in the programme?


The bigger question is, why do the Koreans insist on tying their defense programs to the Indonesians in the first place? In my mind, it's akin to Israel having no problem being associated with Apartheid South Africa (then again Israel happily engages in its own Apartheid, except it's un-American to say this).
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed May 27, 2020 11:35 pm

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
art wrote:

Can Indonesia afford to stay in the programme?


The bigger question is, why do the Koreans insist on tying their defense programs to the Indonesians in the first place? In my mind, it's akin to Israel having no problem being associated with Apartheid South Africa (then again Israel happily engages in its own Apartheid, except it's un-American to say this).


I can think of two benefits: a bit of money, a larger production run.
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed May 27, 2020 11:41 pm

art wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Last year, Indonesia was hoping to pay in hardware and technology rather than cash, when they were "only" 300 billion won overdue. They were offering a number of Indonesian-built CN-235 to the ROKAF. http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/ ... 73060.html
Military and industry sources of the South Korean side, however, said receiving CN-235 aircraft or other equipment in lieu of cash would not be a preferable option.
500 billion won could buy you ~14 CN-235, or, for that matter, the two A400M that Indonesia has been interested in but cannot afford.


If...
option (a) pay cash is not available
option (b) barter is not available

is...
option (c) a loan from SK available, so Indonesia can get up to date on programme payments? How else can the programme avoid stalling if part of the money to pay the developers is missing?

I suspect a loan is highly unlikely given their already sporadic payment history and there is no reason SK would accept additional CN-235s, they already operate 18 and likely don't need any more. Funding remains an issue and will likely continue to be. Given Indonesia's smattering of fighter orders it is unlikely that they would take 50 KF-X when they were available anyway. I could see them walking away from the program or not taking any once it is available.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu May 28, 2020 1:19 am

art wrote:
I can think of two benefits: a bit of money, a larger production run.


Or, I'll take two things Indonesia will never have in a million years, Alex!
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:30 am

South Korea has completed the selection process for the precision-guided munitions and guidance kits that it plans to integrate with its future Korean Fighter eXperimental (KF-X) multirole fighter aircraft.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... 6bf5824514

It sounds to me like when this aircraft hits the ground (perhaps not the best choice of words, but there you go), it will hit the ground running in contrast to something like Typhoon which was in service for many years before an adequate suite of air to ground munitions was integrated.
 
DigitalSea
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:59 pm

art wrote:
South Korea has completed the selection process for the precision-guided munitions and guidance kits that it plans to integrate with its future Korean Fighter eXperimental (KF-X) multirole fighter aircraft.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... 6bf5824514

It sounds to me like when this aircraft hits the ground (perhaps not the best choice of words, but there you go), it will hit the ground running in contrast to something like Typhoon which was in service for many years before an adequate suite of air to ground munitions was integrated.


I wonder if they'd partner with Japan and the US for a next gen fighter?
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:07 pm

art wrote:

I can think of two benefits: a bit of money, a larger production run.


That's true, but like all other forms of short-term-only thinking, it starts to yield neither, and eventually, only problems.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:43 pm

From May 3 report on Turkish TF-X progress:

The project is expected to face delays following pressure from the United States on TAI’s European partners such as BAE Systems and Rolls Royce to abandon partnering with TAI.

In addition, TAI has selected Dassault Systeme to provide flight control software for the project.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/26891 ... tfX8Dl7ncc

Not looking too good at the moment, is it? Would reported American pressure on non-Turkish companies involved ease if Biden replaced Trump in January?

Another report from January:

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said in December that Turkey was seeking to revive a deal with Rolls-Royce to jointly produce engines for the aircraft. The British company said in March last year that it had scaled back its participation in the TF-X project as it was unwilling to share its intellectual property with Turkish vehicle manufacturer BMC. It is unclear whether Turkey is now willing to compromise with Rolls-Royce on the issue.

“If Turkey is genuinely seeking Rolls-Royce as the propulsion partner for a domestic TF-X airframe then the prospects for a renewed partnership are reasonably good,” said Bronk. “However, if Turkey is really looking for large-scale technology transfer of high-end military turbofan manufacturing techniques to develop domestic production capacity, then Rolls Royce will refuse.”


https://ahvalnews.com/tf-x/turkeys-tf-x ... ound-2020s
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:30 pm

art wrote:
Not looking too good at the moment, is it? Would reported American pressure on non-Turkish companies involved ease if Biden replaced Trump in January?


Gee, I wonder if such issues with a despotic, cash-troubled regime like this were predictable to the point where South Korea has to be questioned on why they keep doing this?
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:32 am

GE have delivered the first F414 for the KF-X. The F404 and F414 have really done very well in the market. It seems to be the engine family of choice for most light and medium weight fighters where the nation doesn’t have a domestic engine industry capable of manufacturing a comparable design.

GE Aviation delivers first F414 engine for South Korea’s KF-X fighter

GE Aviation delivered in May the first F414-GE-400K engine for Korea Aerospace Industries’ (KAI) KF-X aircraft, an in-development fifth-generation fighter for the South Korean air force.

Flight tests on the twin-engined KF-X are planned to start in 2023, with the development programme scheduled to be finished in 2026. As part of the development programme, GE Aviation is to deliver 15 F414 flight test engines for six prototype fighters by 2021, the company says.

...

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 98.article

First flight in 2023 with the development program finished by 2026 remains a very tight timeframe…
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:41 pm

... six prototypes are expected to be produced for the program by 2021, with first flight expected in 2022. Development is expected to be completed by 2026.


https://www.defensenews.com/industry/te ... ghter-jet/

Those 6 KF-X prototypes must be in a very advanced state of assembly if they are going to be completed by the end of this year.

I wonder if Indonesia expects to get one. That was the deal apparently but then paying 20% of development was also part of the deal (which Indonesia has not done) .
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:34 pm

The experience Turkey has gained from developing unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and helicopters domestically will be useful in the development of the country’s fifth-generation fighter jet... ...the head of the Defense Industries Presidency (SSB) said in a recent interview.


https://www.dailysabah.com/business/def ... evelopment

Experience of designing military UAV and helicopter aircraft may be of some use when embarking on a new project but I would think not much help in designing an advanced fighter.

He noted that Turkey has not closed the door on a multi-partner project and is still as open to collaboration as it was during the prototype development phase.


I cannot think of any country keen to walk through that open door. Or is he talking of industrial co-operation eg engine/airframe ToT?
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:33 pm

art wrote:
The experience Turkey has gained from developing unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and helicopters domestically will be useful in the development of the country’s fifth-generation fighter jet... ...the head of the Defense Industries Presidency (SSB) said in a recent interview.


https://www.dailysabah.com/business/def ... evelopment

Experience of designing military UAV and helicopter aircraft may be of some use when embarking on a new project but I would think not much help in designing an advanced fighter.

He noted that Turkey has not closed the door on a multi-partner project and is still as open to collaboration as it was during the prototype development phase.


I cannot think of any country keen to walk through that open door. Or is he talking of industrial co-operation eg engine/airframe ToT?

I saw this article yesterday and didn't bother posting it given how unrealistic it was, not only in the TF-X sections but with the expectation Turkey would resume partnership in the F-35 program.
 
744SPX
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:42 pm

Kind of surprised they haven't introduced the upgraded F414-EPE into the production line yet. Its been in production for 25 years with no thrust upgrades. That's got to be a record nowadays. F404 had at least two.
 
Ozair
Posts: 5169
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:50 pm

744SPX wrote:
Kind of surprised they haven't introduced the upgraded F414-EPE into the production line yet. Its been in production for 25 years with no thrust upgrades. That's got to be a record nowadays. F404 had at least two.

As already stated the F414-EPE hasn't been funded. Until someone actually pays for the work to upgrade the engine it won't happen.
 
Ozair
Posts: 5169
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:52 am

Amongst the other reasonably standard suite of weapons that South Korea is looking to integrate onto the KF-X is this new air to surface missile. Interesting that they are going for supersonic speed which is in contrast to current western offerings on the international market and perhaps may give them an export opportunity.

At 3,000lbs it looks like it will sit somewhere between the western subsonic missiles and the higher weight and range Brahmos from India. I expect the US hypersonic missiles coming out will eclipse this in capability but those are unlikely to be available for export and likely prohibitively expensive to acquire.

South Korea to develop supersonic ASM for future KF-X fighter aircraft

South Korea is planning to develop a new supersonic air-to-surface missile (ASM) that is expected to be carried by the Republic of Korea Air Force’s (RoKAF’s) future Korean Fighter eXperimental (KF-X) multirole fighter aircraft.

A Joint Chief of Staff (JCS) official told Janes on 30 June that the weapon is expected to fly at speeds in excess of Mach 2.5, weigh less than 3,000 lb (1.36 tonnes) and have a range of at least 250 km.

No further details were provided about the ASM.

...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... r-aircraft
 
angad84
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:34 am

Ozair wrote:
Amongst the other reasonably standard suite of weapons that South Korea is looking to integrate onto the KF-X is this new air to surface missile. Interesting that they are going for supersonic speed which is in contrast to current western offerings on the international market and perhaps may give them an export opportunity.

At 3,000lbs it looks like it will sit somewhere between the western subsonic missiles and the higher weight and range Brahmos from India. I expect the US hypersonic missiles coming out will eclipse this in capability but those are unlikely to be available for export and likely prohibitively expensive to acquire.

South Korea to develop supersonic ASM for future KF-X fighter aircraft

South Korea is planning to develop a new supersonic air-to-surface missile (ASM) that is expected to be carried by the Republic of Korea Air Force’s (RoKAF’s) future Korean Fighter eXperimental (KF-X) multirole fighter aircraft.

A Joint Chief of Staff (JCS) official told Janes on 30 June that the weapon is expected to fly at speeds in excess of Mach 2.5, weigh less than 3,000 lb (1.36 tonnes) and have a range of at least 250 km.

No further details were provided about the ASM.

...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... r-aircraft

Those specs at 3000lb weight would make it very competitive against the Brahmos on exports (the BrahMos ALCM has basically no export prospects)
 
maint123
Posts: 396
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:36 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Still, would be great if they succeeded in developing something, especially as it will likely be very Japanese in concept and design. They could always surprise us and come out with a Mecha...

Or a cute anime girl that transforms mid-air into a stealthy hypersonic F-14.

Yup the Japanese government insisted on a kawaii design
 
maint123
Posts: 396
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:56 pm

art wrote:
AMCA moving towards design freeze

I wonder how much this will be delayed by the COVID-19 pandemic.

http://idrw.org/amca-final-design-freez ... n-fighter/

NB The source is highly chauvinistic so may not be objective in reporting Indian aviation. For example:

Technological benchmark being set by both developers and operators is to develop a jet that is as capable as an F-35A in stealth and much more in avionics and other technology.

AMCA will go the way of tejas if it remains with HAL.
As a government organization, HAL has zero incentive to deliver. The employees are employed for life , no performance required. And a high tech field like the aero industry requires the dynamism of a private company like l&t or even senior ambani. Not TATA , its a semi government setup destroyed by ratan tata. Employees will beg , borrow or steal to get the job done.
Was seeing a localization request tender from HAL and they have put in the most ridiculous components in it. Like servo valves. These are off the shelf valves costing around 10k to 20k usd from moog and will never be profitable to manufacturer in small quantities in india by a private company.
HAL seems to lack common sense in how to develop a product.
And forget about a suitable indigenous engine in the next 10 years. At best have a parallel program while being clear about using a GE engine for the first atleast 60 odd planes. Tejas is using GE , no need to get another manufacturer involved complicating maintenance. GE engines will have a lot of similarities, making maintenance easier
 
art
Topic Author
Posts: 3365
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:20 pm

maint123 wrote:
AMCA will go the way of tejas if it remains with HAL.
As a government organization, HAL has zero incentive to deliver. The employees are employed for life , no performance required. And a high tech field like the aero industry requires the dynamism of a private company like l&t or even senior ambani. Not TATA , its a semi government setup destroyed by ratan tata. Employees will beg , borrow or steal to get the job done.
Was seeing a localization request tender from HAL and they have put in the most ridiculous components in it. Like servo valves. These are off the shelf valves costing around 10k to 20k usd from moog and will never be profitable to manufacturer in small quantities in india by a private company.
HAL seems to lack common sense in how to develop a product.
And forget about a suitable indigenous engine in the next 10 years. At best have a parallel program while being clear about using a GE engine for the first atleast 60 odd planes. Tejas is using GE , no need to get another manufacturer involved complicating maintenance. GE engines will have a lot of similarities, making maintenance easier


I have followed the Tejas programme for 10+ years. In all that time I only remember HAL keeping to one schedule - the completion of delivery of the first 16 Tejas IOC spec fighters by April 2019 (many reschedules and many years later than the scheduled delivery date when ordered). I think the programme is currently around 20 years behind original schedule.

To be realistic, I do not see an indigenous engine being developed for AMCA. The Kaveri programme to develop an engine for Tejas was initiated in 1989. Some 25 years later It was abandoned, no Kaveri engine having ever been fitted to a Tejas prototype.
 
art
Topic Author
Posts: 3365
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:27 pm

AMCA will be a corporate public-private program

AMCA will be a corporate public-private program, a massive break from the traditional ‘goverment-only’ shape of all military aviation projects thus far. Livefist can confirm that India’s HAL and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) are in the process of laying the contours for a joint venture company to execute the AMCA program. The joint venture company will be a three-way partnership between HAL, DRDO (via ADA) and an Indian private sector firm.


https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/06 ... chief.html

Good news if it ever actually happens. A private sector company may be far more effective than HAL in terms of production.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9621
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:13 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... _Air_Force

Given all those F16's that they have, perhaps Turkey should re assess the situation after November rather than rush in straight away.

Things could look very different next year.
 
Ozair
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:21 pm

Despite Indonesia still being cagey about their participation the South Koreans roll on with KF-X.

KAI plans to roll out first KF-X prototype in April 2021

South Korean aerospace and defence company Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) has revealed that it plans to roll out the first prototype of its Korean Fighter eXperimental (KF-X) multirole fighter aircraft in April 2021.

In the latest edition of its monthly Fly Together magazine the company released an image showing the prototype’s fuselage, which was assembled at KAI’s facilities in Sacheon. No further details were provided about the programme but Janes understands that the prototype is expected to conduct its first flight in 2022.

...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... april-2021

Image
 
Ozair
Posts: 5169
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:46 am

The only real detail in this article is the intent to start serial production in 2031 with first deployment in 2035. Given how long programs have bene taking there is some significant optimism from Turkey, South Korea and Japan on their respective programs and entry into service.

Japan aiming to start production of new fighter aircraft in FY 2031

The Japan Ministry of Defense (MoD) has proposed to members of the country’s National Diet (parliament) that series-production of a next-generation multirole fighter aircraft to replace the Japan Air-Self-Defense Force’s (JASDF’s) Mitsubishi F-2 should start in fiscal year 2031 (FY 2031).

Documents obtained by Janes on 8 July show that the MoD aims to start prototype production in FY 2024, which will be followed by flight tests from FY 2028 ahead of the start of mass production three years later. The ministry plans to begin formally deploying the new aircraft around 2035, which is when the F-2s are scheduled to be retired.

...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... in-fy-2031

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