Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

ThePointblank · Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:56 pm

Being reported that the conformal external fuel tanks for the Super Hornet could be dropped from the development for the Block III upgrades due to technical, sustainment, and structural risks:

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... ef-upgrade

Ozair · Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:09 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
Being reported that the conformal external fuel tanks for the Super Hornet could be dropped from the development for the Block III upgrades due to technical, sustainment, and structural risks:

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... ef-upgrade

Interesting if the conformals never happen, it is a significant issue for SH competitiveness for Finland and Canada but shouldn't be that much of an impact for Switzerland. It also puts into question the impact of the Blk 3 refit for the USN. No conformals means less range with the same weapons or keeping the wing tanks for same range and less weapons. Neither option is good and perhaps this is the reason for the recent USN interest in F-35 carriage of LRASM.

ThePointblank · Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:41 pm

Ozair wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Being reported that the conformal external fuel tanks for the Super Hornet could be dropped from the development for the Block III upgrades due to technical, sustainment, and structural risks:

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... ef-upgrade

Interesting if the conformals never happen, it is a significant issue for SH competitiveness for Finland and Canada but shouldn't be that much of an impact for Switzerland. It also puts into question the impact of the Blk 3 refit for the USN. No conformals means less range with the same weapons or keeping the wing tanks for same range and less weapons. Neither option is good and perhaps this is the reason for the recent USN interest in F-35 carriage of LRASM.

Don't forget that the centerline external tank with the IRST also looses 150 gallons of fuel due to the space taken up by the IRST.

art · Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:56 pm

Turkey is launching a life extension programme for some of its F-16's. A comment on the TF-X from the article -

Turkey’s indigenous fighter program, dubbed TF-X (or MMU in its Turkish acronym), has been crawling over the past years due to technological failures and issues with know-how transfers. Turkish engineers must first select an engine for the planned aircraft before finalizing the design phase.

TAI has been in talks with British engine-maker Rolls-Royce for engine know-how and co-production, but a final contract has yet to emerge.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/02 ... -aircraft/

744SPX · Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:53 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
Ozair wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Being reported that the conformal external fuel tanks for the Super Hornet could be dropped from the development for the Block III upgrades due to technical, sustainment, and structural risks:

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... ef-upgrade

Interesting if the conformals never happen, it is a significant issue for SH competitiveness for Finland and Canada but shouldn't be that much of an impact for Switzerland. It also puts into question the impact of the Blk 3 refit for the USN. No conformals means less range with the same weapons or keeping the wing tanks for same range and less weapons. Neither option is good and perhaps this is the reason for the recent USN interest in F-35 carriage of LRASM.

Don't forget that the centerline external tank with the IRST also looses 150 gallons of fuel due to the space taken up by the IRST.

That is definitely bad news for SH competitiveness. Without the conformal tanks and more powerful engines, its a block 3 in name only.

744SPX · Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:03 pm

Frankly, I don't think the Navy is investing in carrier-borne aircraft to the extent it should given the cost of carriers these days. A carrier is only as good as the aircraft operating from it, and at 12-15 billion a pop, you better have some damn capable aircraft. A blk 3 SH without upgraded engines and conformals is not that. The F-35C as is, also not that. An F-35C with the F135 thrust and efficiency upgrade plus resolution of supersonic flight/afterburner heat issues, now you are talking. Otherwise these carriers are a boondoggle at the current price.

art · Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:43 am

AMCA expected to get formal approval 2nd half 2021.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 792497.cms

art · Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:08 pm

Image of KF-X prototype from January here: https://www.defenseworld.net/feature/49 ... C1hTvmnxWE

Problems with Indonesian participation ongoing:

According to Korean lawmaker Shin Won-shik, Indonesia has only paid 227.2 billion won out of the 831.6 billion won it promised for this year. The payment made by Jakarta so far only covers around 13 percent of its commitment.

Indonesia has held back from further financial commitments. In addition, it did not send back the 114 technical specialists from its aerospace firm PT Dirgantara, who were repatriated in March due to outbreaks of the coronavirus in South Korea.

mxaxai · Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:20 pm

Seems like Indonesia wants to buy Rafale and F-15EX, and more:

"Starting from this year until 2024, we will immediately realize the acquisition of various modern defense equipment in stages. Some of these are multi-role combat aircraft F-15 EX and Dassault Rafale, Radar GCI 4, aircraft with Airborne Early Warning capability, aircraft. tankers, namely Multi Role Tanker Transport, C-130J transport aircraft, UCAV capable of MALE and various other defense equipment, "said Fadjar Chief of Staff of the Indonesian Air Force (KSAU) Marshal Fadjar Prasetyo in his official statement, Friday (19/2/2021).

No mention of the previously planned/rumored A400M but lots of other fancy new equipment.
https://www.cnbcindonesia.com/news/2021 ... mpur-usang [Bahasa Indonesia]

But Korea hasn't given up on Indonesia yet:
https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/se ... 27.article

South Korea’s Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) insists that Indonesia is still committed to the Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) KF-X fighter programme, despite media reports that Jakarta will obtain Dassault Rafales and Boeing F-15EX fighters in the coming years.

art · Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:55 pm

mxaxai wrote:
But Korea hasn't given up on Indonesia yet:
https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/se ... 27.article
South Korea’s Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) insists that Indonesia is still committed to the Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) KF-X fighter programme, despite media reports that Jakarta will obtain Dassault Rafales and Boeing F-15EX fighters in the coming years.

It is up to Indonesia to decide if it is committed to the KF-X programme, isn't it? Indonesia has shown no sign of continuing its commitment as far as I know (from the media). I do not really understand Indonesia's position. Wanted to barter aircraft with SK, now wants 4.5G aircraft from another source. How much palm oil can France absorb to cover the cost of a Rafale deal?

"Starting from this year until 2024, we will immediately realize the acquisition of various modern defense equipment in stages."

I do not take these declarations from Indonesia seriously, not that I am any kind of expert.

art · Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:56 pm

According to this source KF-X is set to roll out by end April:

https://idrw.org/south-koreas-next-gene ... -industry/

I wonder how many months of testing will be involved before it actually takes to the air.

art · Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:06 pm

India aiming for 'indigenous' engine for AMCA Mk2

http://idrw.org/drdo-rolls-royce-engine ... y-studies/

India is in talks with RR to design a clean sheet engine for use in the second batch of AMCA Mk2 aircraft. I will be surprised if RR will be prepared to part with much IP should this endeavour get off the ground. That notwithstanding, I see an opportunity for India to get involved in fast jet engine design and production at a low overall cost (development cost being offset as follows).

Based on current plans India should end up with these fighter aircraft:

50 TEDBF (2 x F414 98kN engine)
200 MWF (1 x F414 98kN engine)
40 AMCA (2 x F414 98kN engine)
80 AMCA (2 x indigenous 110kN engine)

380 F414 engines are involved. At some point these will reach the end of their service lives and will need replacing. I wonder if a new 110kN engine could be detuned to act as a replacement for the F414. I think the F414 costs $7+ million to buy, so India would save over $2.5 billion in foreign exchange if a home-produced engine were used. Additionally, I guess that engines produced in India would cost less to produce.

Anyone think this detuning idea could work?

744SPX · Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:46 am

Why would they detune it? Most aircraft powered by the F414 need more power.

ThePointblank · Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:19 am

744SPX wrote:
Why would they detune it? Most aircraft powered by the F414 need more power.

Increased engine service life for starters.

art · Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:26 pm

744SPX wrote:
Why would they detune it? Most aircraft powered by the F414 need more power.

Air intakes would need to be changed to allow greater mass flow for a more powerful engine, wouldn't they, if an engine were installed that provided significantly more thrust than the F414 - 110kN versus 98kN?

mxaxai · Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:36 pm

art wrote:
744SPX wrote:
Why would they detune it? Most aircraft powered by the F414 need more power.

Air intakes would need to be changed to allow greater mass flow for a more powerful engine, wouldn't they, if an engine were installed that provided significantly more thrust than the F414 - 110kN versus 98kN?

Not necessarily. The velocity of the air would simply increase. You'd get slightly higher intake losses, though, if the intake isn't well adapted to the engine.

For example, the A321 comes with up to 137 kN per CFM56 engine and the A318 only comes with 96 kN. Yet they still use the same nacelle and inlet.

744SPX · Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:15 am

art wrote:
744SPX wrote:
Why would they detune it? Most aircraft powered by the F414 need more power.

Air intakes would need to be changed to allow greater mass flow for a more powerful engine, wouldn't they, if an engine were installed that provided significantly more thrust than the F414 - 110kN versus 98kN?

Also, think of the F-15 inlet example. Started out with a 23,840 lbs thrust engine and is now using a 29,400 lb thrust engine, and its capable of using the 32,500 lb thrust F-110-132 as well. All with the same inlet.

744SPX · Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:20 am

ThePointblank wrote:
744SPX wrote:
Why would they detune it? Most aircraft powered by the F414 need more power.

Increased engine service life for starters.

I agree that's never a bad thing, but contemporary western fighter engines already have far longer service lives than Russian or Chinese engines. I think its time they start focusing on performance again, especially with the weight gain issue modern western fighter aircraft seem to have.

art · Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:03 pm

It looks like the KF-X rollout is imminent. According to this source (link below), rollout ceremony will be April 9.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/thread ... ost-449508

Info about rollout is on page 13

Devilfish · Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:53 pm

The Korea-Indonesia meeting failed to break the KF-X deadlock in time for the rollout on April 9.....

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/29300 ... G9519xlCUk

https://www.defenseworld.net/uploads//n ... 027465.jpg

art · Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:28 am

Go ahead to build first KF-X October 2019. Rollout target H1 2021.
Rollout of first aircraft April 2021

Korean TV coverage of ceremony on youtube (link below). Aircraft unveiled 34m into video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ4ENIrMyIY

mxaxai · Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:08 am

Photo:

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/artic ... ighter-jet

art · Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:32 am

Good photo here;

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/fi ... 36.article

Whether Indonesia is actively in the project or not remains unclear:

Prabowo paid a visit to South Korean president Moon Jae-in on 8 April, where they discussed the KF-X programme, among other issues.

According to Yonhap News Agency, Moon said after the meeting that the joint fighter programme “symbolically shows the high level of trust and cooperation between the two nations”.

He also said Prabowo’s attendance of the prototype launch represented Indonesia’s “robust commitment” to the programme.

Just PR talk because of the rollout? I wonder if Indonesia will quietly fade away from the project. I understand (from aviation media) that the Indonesians working in Korea returned home as COVID-19 developed and have not returned to work in Korea. In addition there are reports that Indonesia wants to reduce its 20% share in the project to 10%.

art · Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:57 am

Update on TF-X plans (interview with head of TAI in March)

The CEO also said the TF-X, Turkey’s first indigenous fighter jet in the making, will make its maiden flight in 2025, with plans for the aircraft to enter the Turkish Air Force’s inventory in 2029. He added that the TF-X will come at a cost of $100 million per unit.

TAI will produce two TF-X aircraft per month, hoping to generate $2.4 billion in annual revenue from its fighter jet program. At present, Kotil said, 1,000 of TAI’s 4,000 engineers are working on the TF-X program.

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/te ... st-turkey/

Devilfish · Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:22 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Photo:

So now we have an actual F-21 prototype for the next iteration of Top Gun the movie! :bigthumbsup:

RJMAZ · Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:06 am

KAI KF-21 Boramae weighs approximately 10% less than the F-35A yet has 3% more thrust and 7% more wing area. Nice!

Thrust to weight is nearly identical to the Eurofighter.

Devilfish · Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:21 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
KAI KF-21 Boramae weighs approximately 10% less than the F-35A yet has 3% more thrust and 7% more wing area. Nice!

And with engines almost common to the FA-50, a practical consideration for those already operating the latter. The twin F414 configuration probably means O&M is a wash with the standardized Block 70 Viper. Provided KAI could keep their costs down and performance up to specs, then the U.S. FMS incentive will likely be its most formidable hurdle remaining in a tender process.

seahawk · Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:16 am

The Korean design does not look bad at all. The roll-out showed no obviously wrong details or parts that seemed to be for show only. Not stealthy per se, but sure a nice RCS reduction compared to a 4th gen. should have been achieved.

art · Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:41 am

Taiwan developing new fighter.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... evelopment

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4177818

mxaxai · Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:39 pm

art wrote:
Taiwan developing new fighter.
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4177818

If they truly want to use an upgraded version of the F125 engine, the new Taiwanese stealth (?) fighter would be the lightest of all 5th gen fighters so far. The F-CK-1, the engine's current application, has an MTOW of 9,500kg; compare the KF-X / KF-21 at 26,000 kg and the F-35 at 31,000kg.

For point-defence and short-range attack profiles this would be fine, I suppose, comparable to the F-CK-1 or the Gripen C/D.

LightningZ71 · Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:06 pm

They certainly don't need a lot of range for home defense fighters. The larger fighters definitely got at least some of their size from having to carry a lot of fuel.

I would suggest that they would be well served by a fighter that's a true VTOL though, as I expect that, the first thing that will happen is a saturation attack that craters every straight strip of concrete on the island.

Devilfish · Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:17 am

art wrote:
Taiwan developing new fighter.

From the link...that looks very much like an UAV...I wonder about its agility and dogfighting capabilities? :eyepopping:

https://tnimage.s3.hicloud.net.tw/photo ... 150efe.jpg

Are they planning a back seat for another variant given the longish cockpit? Also, the air intake seems a bit limited. :scratchchin:

mxaxai · Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:29 am

India has received enough Rafales for their first complete squadron, based near Pakistan.

Indian Air Force completes first Rafale fighter squadron

The Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) first squadron equipped with Dassault Rafale multirole fighter aircraft is now complete after the final four aircraft arrived at Jamnagar Air Force Station (AFS) in western India on 21 April. ...
Within the next few weeks Dassault is expected to begin aircraft deliveries for the IAF’s second Rafale squadron, which will operate from Hasimara AFS in northeastern India, close to the country’s disputed border with China.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... dron_17149

744SPX · Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:17 pm

Taiwan developing new fighter.

Similar wing and tail design to the YF-23. That design is just too good to be relegated to the dustbin of history.

art · Tue May 04, 2021 12:21 pm

Turkey to put more resources into TF-X programme.

Turkey’s top defense procurement official, Ismail Demir, said in an April 30 TV interview that the government will prioritize the production of its indigenous TF-X fighter jet...

TAI CEO Temel Kotil said in an April 27 TV interview that “the government has earmarked an additional $1.3 billion to Phase 1 of the TF-X program. A total of 6,000 engineers are working on this program.”

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/te ... tf-x-work/

aumaverick · Tue May 04, 2021 4:03 pm

744SPX wrote:
Taiwan developing new fighter.

Similar wing and tail design to the YF-23. That design is just too good to be relegated to the dustbin of history.

Got a source?

744SPX · Tue May 04, 2021 7:33 pm

aumaverick wrote:
744SPX wrote:
Taiwan developing new fighter.

Similar wing and tail design to the YF-23. That design is just too good to be relegated to the dustbin of history.

Got a source?

Just an observation.

alberchico · Wed May 05, 2021 2:36 am

art wrote:
Turkey to put more resources into TF-X programme.

Turkey’s top defense procurement official, Ismail Demir, said in an April 30 TV interview that the government will prioritize the production of its indigenous TF-X fighter jet...

TAI CEO Temel Kotil said in an April 27 TV interview that “the government has earmarked an additional $1.3 billion to Phase 1 of the TF-X program. A total of 6,000 engineers are working on this program.”

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/te ... tf-x-work/

I just don't know how Turkey's tanking economy and overstretched defense industry can sustain a program of this magnitude. Once Erdoğan is out of power this will be the first project to be cancelled. Not to mention this program depends heavily on technology transfers that may not receive approval.

art · Wed May 05, 2021 8:25 am

India and UK announce closer co-operation in virtual meeting of their prime ministers.

As part of the ‘Roadmap 2030’, they agreed to work closely together in support of India’s indigenous development of the Light Combat Aircraft Mark 2.

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... p-7301989/

India faces the problem of all current fighter projects (LCA - Tejas, MWF - Tejas mk2, TEDBF - carrier, MCA - 5G) using GE engines where supply/spares could be subject to US CAATSA supply interruption. How US will react to S-400 surface to air missiles being delivered to India is yet to be seen but the reaction to Turkey receiving S-400 was severe (expulsion from the F-35 program and cancellation of its F-35 orders).

AMCA is planned to be produced as 40 x Mk1 version using GE F414 and 80 x Mk2 version requiring more thrust (110kN) than GE F414 supplies. With UK and India closening ties, the prospects of a 110kN engine development by RR and DRDO of India have improved. Talks concerning IP sharing for such an engine have been ongoing for some time.

A new 110kN engine could become the engine used in MCA and other Indian fighters, so giving India sovereignty in engine supply.

art · Wed May 05, 2021 6:11 pm

alberchico wrote:
I just don't know how Turkey's tanking economy and overstretched defense industry can sustain a program of this magnitude. Once Erdoğan is out of power this will be the first project to be cancelled. Not to mention this program depends heavily on technology transfers that may not receive approval.

What should Turkey do, given that the F-35 is no longer coming?

(a) wait for TF-X and make do with updated Phantoms and F-16's in the meantime?
(b) try to accelerate TF-X?
(c) try to buy a few squadrons of ex-RAF and ex-Luftwaffe Eurofighter T1 as an interim make do until TF-X arrives?
(d) ?

mxaxai · Wed May 05, 2021 6:35 pm

art wrote:
What should Turkey do, given that the F-35 is no longer coming?
(d) ?

Ask other countries nicely for an affordable LO aircraft, like Korea's KF-21 (KF-X), Russia's Su-57 or China's J-31.

TK105 · Wed May 05, 2021 8:25 pm

alberchico wrote:
Once Erdoğan is out of power this will be the first project to be cancelled.

Wishfull thinking...

This is beyond any politician. Sooner or later TFX will come.

mxaxai wrote:
Ask other countries nicely for an affordable LO aircraft, like Korea's KF-21 (KF-X), Russia's Su-57 or China's J-31.

Neither KFX, SU-57, J-31, nor F-35 is an option for Turkey anymore. The future for Turkey is Hurjet, TFX and all sorts of domestic made UCAVs.

art · Fri May 07, 2021 7:44 pm

An unusual report about TF-X. According to the report, Turkey has been in talks with Pakistan with a view to involving Pakistan in the project.

https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2021/ ... slims.html

petertenthije · Fri May 07, 2021 11:11 pm

Devilfish wrote:

That one really reminds me to the MDD/Northrop/BAe proposal for the JSF programme.

alberchico · Mon May 10, 2021 2:39 am

art wrote:
alberchico wrote:
I just don't know how Turkey's tanking economy and overstretched defense industry can sustain a program of this magnitude. Once Erdoğan is out of power this will be the first project to be cancelled. Not to mention this program depends heavily on technology transfers that may not receive approval.

What should Turkey do, given that the F-35 is no longer coming?

(a) wait for TF-X and make do with updated Phantoms and F-16's in the meantime?
(b) try to accelerate TF-X?
(c) try to buy a few squadrons of ex-RAF and ex-Luftwaffe Eurofighter T1 as an interim make do until TF-X arrives?
(d) ?

Not to get too much into politics, but option D would be to simply wait for a new government to come into power and reset relations with Washington, thus allowing the F-35 program to get back on track. I just don't see the TFX ever entering service. They're already having technology transfer issues.

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... t-support/

art · Tue May 11, 2021 8:42 am

alberchico wrote:
art wrote:
alberchico wrote:
I just don't know how Turkey's tanking economy and overstretched defense industry can sustain a program of this magnitude. Once Erdoğan is out of power this will be the first project to be cancelled. Not to mention this program depends heavily on technology transfers that may not receive approval.

What should Turkey do, given that the F-35 is no longer coming?

(a) wait for TF-X and make do with updated Phantoms and F-16's in the meantime?
(b) try to accelerate TF-X?
(c) try to buy a few squadrons of ex-RAF and ex-Luftwaffe Eurofighter T1 as an interim make do until TF-X arrives?
(d) ?

Not to get too much into politics, but option D would be to simply wait for a new government to come into power and reset relations with Washington, thus allowing the F-35 program to get back on track. I just don't see the TFX ever entering service. They're already having technology transfer issues.

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... t-support/

However quickly Turkish companies can get the systems for the aircraft designed, I do not see an acceptable TRMotor designed engine reaching full development in the next 10 years. Perhaps they could get there sometime in the 2030's? But what would be the point in investing a lot of money in something that would arrive too late to be useful? At the moment Turkey is aiming for TF-X to enter service in 2028. I guess that early 2030's is the soonest that will happen.

TF-X is planned to be built initially using GE F414 engines. I think that 'initially' probably means forever. I can see Turkey continuing with the project if they end up planning to produce 200+ aircraft.

mxaxai · Tue May 11, 2021 9:54 am

petertenthije wrote:
Devilfish wrote:

That one really reminds me to the MDD/Northrop/BAe proposal for the JSF programme.

I think that a lot of artistic freedom was taken with this illustration. It's likely as unrealistic as many of the early FCAS drawings.

aumaverick · Tue May 11, 2021 12:24 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Devilfish wrote:

That one really reminds me to the MDD/Northrop/BAe proposal for the JSF programme.

This design and rendering reminds me of some sort of aborted Hasbro GI Joe toy from the 80s.

ThePointblank · Sat May 15, 2021 9:43 am

art wrote:
alberchico wrote:
art wrote:

What should Turkey do, given that the F-35 is no longer coming?

(a) wait for TF-X and make do with updated Phantoms and F-16's in the meantime?
(b) try to accelerate TF-X?
(c) try to buy a few squadrons of ex-RAF and ex-Luftwaffe Eurofighter T1 as an interim make do until TF-X arrives?
(d) ?

Not to get too much into politics, but option D would be to simply wait for a new government to come into power and reset relations with Washington, thus allowing the F-35 program to get back on track. I just don't see the TFX ever entering service. They're already having technology transfer issues.

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... t-support/

However quickly Turkish companies can get the systems for the aircraft designed, I do not see an acceptable TRMotor designed engine reaching full development in the next 10 years. Perhaps they could get there sometime in the 2030's? But what would be the point in investing a lot of money in something that would arrive too late to be useful? At the moment Turkey is aiming for TF-X to enter service in 2028. I guess that early 2030's is the soonest that will happen.

TF-X is planned to be built initially using GE F414 engines. I think that 'initially' probably means forever. I can see Turkey continuing with the project if they end up planning to produce 200+ aircraft.

Considering how bloody expensive TF-X is projected to be per unit, I doubt the Turkish economy can sustain continued development of the project, let alone procurement.

It's going to end up being more expensive than the F-22... I doubt anyone on the export market is going to want to buy this jet based on that price alone.

RJMAZ · Tue May 18, 2021 5:53 am

I don't see how Turkey can make the TF-X. They have never made a basic jet trainer yet they are aiming for a stealth, supersonic, 5th gen fighter with advanced avionics straight off the bat. They will probably not have access to the best western systems.

I can see them producing an overweight, underpowered, non combat capable, handbuilt and flyable prototype by 2030. All show, no go. A revised version then gets forced into service in extremely low numbers to save face. It ends up having extremely low reliability and very basic combat capability similar to a 4th gen fighter. Turkey will continuously say it is the most advanced 5th gen fighter in the world. It will never see a single international sale.

Who here agrees with this prediction?

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