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JonesNL
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue May 18, 2021 9:59 am

RJMAZ wrote:
I don't see how Turkey can make the TF-X. They have never made a basic jet trainer yet they are aiming for a stealth, supersonic, 5th gen fighter with advanced avionics straight off the bat. They will probably not have access to the best western systems.

I can see them producing an overweight, underpowered, non combat capable, handbuilt and flyable prototype by 2030. All show, no go. A revised version then gets forced into service in extremely low numbers to save face. It ends up having extremely low reliability and very basic combat capability similar to a 4th gen fighter. Turkey will continuously say it is the most advanced 5th gen fighter in the world. It will never see a single international sale.

Who here agrees with this prediction?

You are more optimistic than I am; none of the numbers add up. This whole project is to feed the nationalism among the Turkish population. I wouldn’t be surprised if we will never see a prototype flying…
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue May 18, 2021 6:15 pm

I won't be surprised if it is still going as a national prestige programme in 2030 but with an aircraft still many years away from entering service. Whatever, if they get it to fly I think that wil keep the nationalists happy and give the public something to see at air shows.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:05 am

Two months after its much-ballyhooed April 9 unveiling, the KF-21 Boramae is being dismantled, raising awkward questions about the true readiness of the prototype of Korea's first indigenously developed fighter jet.


https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/20 ... etailWord=

???
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:15 pm

art wrote:
Two months after its much-ballyhooed April 9 unveiling, the KF-21 Boramae is being dismantled, raising awkward questions about the true readiness of the prototype of Korea's first indigenously developed fighter jet.

:shakehead: Noooo :!: What are they going to use now for the Top Gun sequel...pure CGI? :hissyfit:
 
744SPX
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:34 pm

Devilfish wrote:
art wrote:
Two months after its much-ballyhooed April 9 unveiling, the KF-21 Boramae is being dismantled, raising awkward questions about the true readiness of the prototype of Korea's first indigenously developed fighter jet.

:shakehead: Noooo :!: What are they going to use now for the Top Gun sequel...pure CGI? :hissyfit:



Might as well, that's what they're doing with the F-14 in the Top Gun sequel.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:59 am

Temel Kotil, general manager of Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), which is the main contractor of the project, told government-owned Anadolu Agency that the production process is progressing well and that the prototype, which includes avionics, control and hydraulic systems, will be unveiled for the first time on March 18, 2023.


https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/

I like a firm date. I can't make out whether this means the rollout of a complete, flyable prototype, though.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:10 am

art wrote:
Temel Kotil, general manager of Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), which is the main contractor of the project, told government-owned Anadolu Agency that the production process is progressing well and that the prototype, which includes avionics, control and hydraulic systems, will be unveiled for the first time on March 18, 2023.


https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/

I like a firm date. I can't make out whether this means the rollout of a complete, flyable prototype, though.


Above report has now disappeared from https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/. Perhaps the report mistakenly referred to TF-X instead of the Hurjet.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:37 pm

Japan reveals digital development plan for F-X fighter

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -x-fighter
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:12 am

Japan has decided that it will develop the engine for the F-X fighter with help from Britain.

Britain’s Rolls-Royce will partner with Japan’s IHI Corporation. Both will also offer the engine for the export market. Anonymous Japanese officials told the news outlet that Japanese Prime Minister Suga spoke on the issue with British Prime Minister Johnson during the G7 summit last month. At the end of June, officials from Japan’s Defense Ministry traveled to Britain for talks on the issue.


https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:26 pm

Indonesian aerospace engineers are returning to South Korea to resume work on the KF-21 Boramae / IF-X.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/ja ... 49.article

This suggests that counterpart Indonesian development funding is forthcoming. :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: Is Dassault's Rafale sales campaign in Jakarta faltering? :swirl:
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:31 pm

Devilfish wrote:
Indonesian aerospace engineers are returning to South Korea to resume work on the KF-21 Boramae / IF-X.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/ja ... 49.article

This suggests that counterpart Indonesian development funding is forthcoming. :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: Is Dassault's Rafale sales campaign in Jakarta faltering? :swirl:


Well, they weren't just interested in buying Rafale. I think they also wanted

Eurofighter
F-15
F-16
F/A-18
MiG-29
Osprey

When Indonesia is on the verge of buying something that generally means Indonesia is not on the verge of buying anything.

Interesting to hear their engineers are going back to S Korea to work on KF-X. I wonder if they know the prototype was rolled out a few months ago.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:13 am

art wrote:
I wonder if they know the prototype was rolled out a few months ago.


A prototype is just that. A prototype. Typically it is made from cheaper material to prove a concept or provide sufficient flight hours for initial testing.

You still need massive Engineering work to finalize the production design, using more durable (more expensive) materials, and at the same time, manufacturing processes better suited for "mass production" (less expensive).

bt
 
mxaxai
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:42 pm

HAL orders F404 engines for the Tejas Mk1A and is eyeing license-built F414 engines for the Mk2A program.
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... s-fighter/
Hindustan Aeronautics chooses GE engine for India’s Tejas fighter

NEW DELHI — India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited on Tuesday signed a $716 million contract with GE Aviation for F404-GE-IN20 engines for the homemade LCA Mk1A Tejas light combat aircraft.

HAL ordered 99 of the engines as well as support services from GE Aviation, the Indian firm said in a statement.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:49 pm

Morocco is interested in "stealth weaponry", though "stealth" appears to be more focused on UAVs rather than crewed fighters.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/mide ... air-force/
Here are Morocco’s top priorities for modernizing its Air Force

“The U.S. has been most effective in boosting Morocco’s access to stealth weaponry, specifically U.S. drones [and] precision-guided munitions as well as laser-guided munitions,” he added.
...
“The U.S. and Turkey are working together on bolstering Morocco’s stealth capabilities, as 12 Bayraktar TB2 drones will soon arrive in Morocco,” Ramani said.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:45 pm

Turkey's TF-X to cost $100 million a piece?

ANKARA, Turkey — A Ukrainian engine will power Turkey’s new Atak II-class T929 helicopter, the head of Turkish Aerospace Industries announced Monday in a TV interview, during which he also identified the price of the future TF-X fighter jet as $100 million per unit.


https://www.defensenews.com/industry/te ... st-turkey/

Can Turkey produce an aircraft in small numbers at this cost? I don't see it... but being a Muslim state perhaps Turkey sees the aircraft as a way of gaining influence in the Muslim world (eg the Gulf) by offering something the US won't supply due to Israeli/American Jewish lobby influence. I'm sure that any takers will pay a high price through package costs in any deal, just as with US and northern European suppliers.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:17 pm

art wrote:
Turkey's TF-X to cost $100 million a piece?

ANKARA, Turkey — A Ukrainian engine will power Turkey’s new Atak II-class T929 helicopter, the head of Turkish Aerospace Industries announced Monday in a TV interview, during which he also identified the price of the future TF-X fighter jet as $100 million per unit.


https://www.defensenews.com/industry/te ... st-turkey/

Can Turkey produce an aircraft in small numbers at this cost? I don't see it... but being a Muslim state perhaps Turkey sees the aircraft as a way of gaining influence in the Muslim world (eg the Gulf) by offering something the US won't supply due to Israeli/American Jewish lobby influence. I'm sure that any takers will pay a high price through package costs in any deal, just as with US and northern European suppliers.

I am trying to find something that backs up the "he said" part of the price and can't find anything? Clicking all the links in the articles and there is no direct quote that I can se either. Trying to figure out if it is accurate and if so what it covers for the program and costs.

Tugg
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:34 am

Old news but indicative of the state of the TF-X programme...

Turkey originally planned to fly the TF-X in 2023, but aerospace officials put off the target date to the 2025-2026 time frame.

The TF-X program, or MMU in its Turkish acronym, has been crawling over the past years due to technological failures and know-how transfer. Turkish engineers must first select an engine for the planned aircraft before they finalize their designing phase.


https://www.defensenews.com/industry/te ... ghter-jet/

Sounds like things are not going according to plan: 2-3 year delay in first flight; no engine in sight. I wonder if it will be cancelled once the current president loses power.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:36 am

art wrote:
Old news but indicative of the state of the TF-X programme...


Turkey asks US to buy 40 Lockheed Martin F-16 jets

https://www.dailysabah.com/business/def ... ources/amp

Turkey knows it's going to be a long time until they have their 5th gen fighter.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:36 pm

S. Korea, Indonesia to hold last-stage talks over overdue payments for fighter jet project

Says in the following article that Indonesia is almost US$600 million in arrears on its payments on KF-X. Time for all to recognise that Indonesia has no interest in paying its dues?

https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20211105001400325
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:57 pm

Indonesia is now obliged to pay South Korea $1.35 billion, down by nearly $85 million for their joint KF-X fighter jet development project. The Defense Acquisition Program Administration concluded years of negotiations with Indonesia last week on a cost-sharing deal.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:26 pm

TF-X may not receive US Congress approval for supply of GE F110 engine

“It is not a secret that the general mood about Turkey in Congress is very gloomy. I am observing a kind of over-optimism in Ankara about a U.S.-made engine,” said Ozgur Eksi, an Ankara-based defense analyst.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/12 ... sian-tech/

No F110, no TF-X first flight until near the end of the decade (if a home grown engine is miraculously certified by then). Would Congress really deny permission for supply of F110?
 
744SPX
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:14 pm

art wrote:
TF-X may not receive US Congress approval for supply of GE F110 engine

“It is not a secret that the general mood about Turkey in Congress is very gloomy. I am observing a kind of over-optimism in Ankara about a U.S.-made engine,” said Ozgur Eksi, an Ankara-based defense analyst.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/12 ... sian-tech/

No F110, no TF-X first flight until near the end of the decade (if a home grown engine is miraculously certified by then). Would Congress really deny permission for supply of F110?



Yet we sell everything but the kitchen sink to Saudi Arabia. Typical congressional hypocrisy.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:50 pm

744SPX wrote:
Yet we sell everything but the kitchen sink to Saudi Arabia. Typical congressional hypocrisy.


That's because you can't get gold plated kitchen sink though FMS.

Hypocritical, yes, but consistent with the time. Oil is still important and allies should not buy major weapon systems from our adversary.

The India buy of Russian SAM will be a test of this theory.

bt
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:42 pm

bikerthai wrote:
744SPX wrote:
Oil is still important and allies should not buy major weapon systems from our adversary.

The India buy of Russian SAM will be a test of this theory.

bt

So you should not defend your airspace except with what US accepts.

Is India an ally of the US? Don't think so. In the 1970's US blocked possible SAAB Viggen exports to India. In 1990's US sanctioned India for nuclear tests, inter alia unilaterally breaching its contract to develop FMS software for India's new indigenous fighter. US has supported Pakistan (arguably a 'terrorist state' as defined by US) in order to better pursue its activities in Afghanistan. India owes no allegiance to US. Russia has been an ally, Definitely not the US. US is more of an adversary of India.

The Indian AMCA needs an engine. While GE could develop one with India, why should India take the risk of dealing with a US company when RR/SAFRAN are lower risk partners politically? The same can be said for Turkey, which also has a need to develop an engine for its TF-X.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:25 pm

art wrote:
you should not defend your airspace except with what US accepts.


Defend your airspace with what ever you can buy, but depending on your choice, you should expect consequences. Although the selection of the SAM is probably a result of political calculations with political result.

art wrote:
Is India an ally of the US? Don't think so. In the 1970's US blocked possible SAAB Viggen exports to India. In 1990's US sanctioned India for nuclear tests, inter alia unilaterally breaching its contract to develop FMS software for India's new indigenous fighter. US has supported Pakistan (arguably a 'terrorist state' as defined by US) in order to better pursue its activities in Afghanistan. India owes no allegiance to US. Russia has been an ally, Definitely not the US. US is more of an adversary of India.


This is the 21st century my friend. While I am too removed to be definitive, I'd say India is leaning more friend, if not ally, than adversary.

Case in point:

India is flying the most sophisticated MMA in the world and is about to order more.

They are building fuselage for the premier attack helicopter in the word for various customers, not necessarily just for India.

They wouldn't be flying cargo planes and heavy lift helo from an adversary.

To be a true ally, I guess, would be to be able to purchase the F-35. So in that sense India is not a true ally. But I would say it is a friend.

Maybe we should think of India as the French of South Asia? Although, right now, India may have more political influence in American politics than France. :scratchchin:

bt
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:40 pm

Agreed, India and US relations are better than before. To what extent that is because India is in conflict with China and therefore more useful to US due the growing antipathy between China and US (and other countries), I do not know.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:11 pm

art wrote:
To what extent that is because India is in conflict with China


The political side is major, but only account for part of the "C" change.

Culturally, the tech boom in the '90s brought forth a mini migration of Indian to the US which can not but help improved personal ties.

Econnomically, because of that improvement India is becoming a low cost subcontractor for US military equipment, something neither China nor to a lesser extent Vietnam can attain. You can probably say the high offset requirement of India military procurement contribute to the acceleration of that effort.

bt
 
744SPX
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:08 am

Problem is no one else except Russia has an available engine in the thrust class that Turkey is looking for with this aircraft. (Saturn AL-41F1)
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:02 pm

French aviation website paints a black picture for US military supplies to Turkey...

https://www.meta-defense.fr/en/2021/12/ ... -programs/

TF-X prototype to have no engine (with no domestic engine for production aircraft in sight)?
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:56 am

The French would sell an engine to the devil.

The French led FCAS stealth fighter is using an evolved M88 that won't be far off the thrust to the F110. The M88 will be more power dense that allows better packaging and extra fuel inside the fighter.
 
kelval
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:20 am

RJMAZ wrote:
The French would sell an engine to the devil.

The French led FCAS stealth fighter is using an evolved M88 that won't be far off the thrust to the F110. The M88 will be more power dense that allows better packaging and extra fuel inside the fighter.

What kind of nonsense are you spouting ?
France has yet to sell an engine alone, the M88 that left France were attached to a rafale body or as spare parts.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:46 am

kelval wrote:
What kind of nonsense are you spouting ?
France has yet to sell an engine alone, the M88 that left France were attached to a rafale body or as spare parts.

I guess they are too busy selling nuclear tech to China.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:37 am

Turkey is part of NATO and was considered an essential ally back in the cold war. Erdoğan has been less of an ally than the written agreements to be a member of NATO require. Turkey was one of the partners in the F-35 program, which have stringent requirements about classified information. Both of these REQUIRED Turkey to not buy Russian & similar 'bad boy' countries military equipment. Further the S-400 'watching' F-35's close by as well as the OEM support teams on the same base as US equipment gives an amazing opportunity to gather intel and to learn the signatures to break its stealth. Turkey's direction appears to be going toward the Dark Side as well, once it decides to come back to the west things will improve, but not before.

India is not part of NATO, nor in the F-35 program yet, but has been decent with respect to classified information. That has allowed them to buy the P-8's as well as a lot of other equipment. I doubt them getting the F-35, but the QR version of the F-15ex would be possible. India would be allowed to buy engines except for the most recent models for fighters, any engine in production for transports and the like. Also, engines for drones are probably fine, provided that we won't be facing them on a future battlefield.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:50 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
QR version of the F-15ex would be possible.


If they want and can afford it, they can get the F-15EX. After all, they will be building components for it.

I suspect the EX version will incorporate some of the cost savings from digital manufacturing, thus should cost less than the QR.

bt
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:44 pm

Japan’s Yomiuri news reports external link that Tokyo is finalizing its policy on how to jointly develop the jet engine of its F-X fighter with Britain. The article says the government wishes to have a framework on cooperation established before March of next year.


https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/f2 ... pan-01909/
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:16 pm

Press release from UK MOD:

UK and Japan to develop future fighter jet engine demonstrator

The UK and Japan announce plans to develop a future fighter aircraft engine demonstrator and agree to explore further combat air technologies.


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-a ... monstrator
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:03 pm

President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan announced on 6 January that the Engineering Center of the National Combat Aircraft had been formally opened, with the goal of rolling out the first Turkish Fighter Experimental (TF-X)/National Combat Aircraft (MMU) prototype in 2023.


https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air- ... mu-fighter
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:27 pm

AMCA fails to complete CDR scheduled by end of 2021

It was anticipated that its CDR would also be completed this December, but it now more realistically targeted for end-2022.


https://www.ajaishukla.com/2021/12/hal- ... h-gen.html

Keeping up the tradition of delays as per Tejas light fighter, Kaveri engine, Sitara intermediate jet trainer programmes?
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:09 am

Indian military web entity Indian Defence Updates reports that GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment) is planning to conclude an agreement to produce 14 development engines in the 110kN class in conjunction with Rolls-Royce. Whether that means that SAFRAN's proposal has been dismissed is not clarified.

Indian Defence Updates states that the proposal is to build 8 technical demonstrator engines within 3 years of an agreement being signed to be followed by 6 further engines to be installed on a flying testbed.

The plan is to complete development in 7 years with delivery of production engines for use on AMCA Mk2 in 9 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RStumpXDWs&t=24s

The proposed engine is planned to have growth potential of 20% from an initial 110kN. I wonder if there could be any commonality between this engine and RR's possible Tempest programme engine.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:15 pm

According to this video the KAI KF-21 programme should have 6 aircraft test flying in 2022.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9TLT6x1YV0
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:48 am

HAL Tejas rollout of Mk2 scheduled for August 2022 might be delayed to 2023

The follow on programme from Tejas Mk1 is a larger, heavier, 4G+ AESA-equipped fighter using the GE F414 engine. Some of the indigenous sensor development work (indigenous AESA etc) would feed into the AMCA programme.The Tejas Mk2 programme is at risk if India opts to build 114 foreign-designed fighters as an MMRCA 2.0 programme replacing the abortive MMRCA programme that failed to go ahead in 2015. The more the programme is delayed, the more the IAF can argue that the Tejas Mk2 should not be ordered.

https://idrw.org/lca-af-mk2-hal-again-p ... goalposts/
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:46 pm

KF21 first flight is being brought forward from July to June.

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... iant-being
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Feb 15, 2022 4:54 am

TF-X mockup puts in an appearance at Singapore Airshow

https://aviationweek.com/shownews/singa ... pore-debut

According to the article, 'TAI plans to roll out the first nonflying TF-X prototype in 2023, then fly the first Block 0 aircraft three years later.'
 
AngMoh
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:05 am

art wrote:
TF-X mockup puts in an appearance at Singapore Airshow

https://aviationweek.com/shownews/singa ... pore-debut

According to the article, 'TAI plans to roll out the first nonflying TF-X prototype in 2023, then fly the first Block 0 aircraft three years later.'


I had a registration issue with the link but the following has the same story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwdhE7ZKIwE
 
744SPX
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:16 am

Blatantly derivative of a 35-year-old design that was itself inferior in aerodynamics and stealth to the YF-23.
 
art
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:13 pm

Growing Links Between Japan’s F-X and Anglo-Italian Tempest

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... an-tempest

Addendum:

In late December, Japan and the UK confirmed their intention to proceed with a joint engine demonstrator program, which was due to begin in January 2022. Intended to produce an all-new, full-scale power and propulsion demonstrator, the program would use complementary technologies developed by Rolls-Royce and IHI Corporation. The engine will be an advanced turbofan at the heart of the F-X aircraft’s propulsion, power, and thermal management systems.

Subsequently, the Japanese government announced that it had arranged for UK participation not only in the engine but also in the design of “relatable parts of the aircraft.” The cost-ineffectiveness to use a Japanese-designed center fuselage containing intakes and jetpipes with Tempest's engine meant it would be “more rational to develop it together with the engine." Therefore, both aircraft could share the same engine and similar fuselage sections, reducing development costs.


Interesting. Both F-X and Tempest to share centre fuselage section to save money. Sounds like a good idea. I'm confused, though. Does this imply Japan does not want to spend the money to develop their own engine?
 
art
Topic Author
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:20 am

Pakistan links up with Turkey on TF-X programme

https://www.brecorder.com/news/40156522 ... r-jet-tf-x

What can Pakistan bring to the programme? A liittle bit of engineering? A little bit of money? Orders to increase the production run would, of course, be welcome.
 
maint123
Posts: 415
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:24 am

bikerthai wrote:
art wrote:
you should not defend your airspace except with what US accepts.


Defend your airspace with what ever you can buy, but depending on your choice, you should expect consequences. Although the selection of the SAM is probably a result of political calculations with political result.

art wrote:
Is India an ally of the US? Don't think so. In the 1970's US blocked possible SAAB Viggen exports to India. In 1990's US sanctioned India for nuclear tests, inter alia unilaterally breaching its contract to develop FMS software for India's new indigenous fighter. US has supported Pakistan (arguably a 'terrorist state' as defined by US) in order to better pursue its activities in Afghanistan. India owes no allegiance to US. Russia has been an ally, Definitely not the US. US is more of an adversary of India.


This is the 21st century my friend. While I am too removed to be definitive, I'd say India is leaning more friend, if not ally, than adversary.

Case in point:

India is flying the most sophisticated MMA in the world and is about to order more.

They are building fuselage for the premier attack helicopter in the word for various customers, not necessarily just for India.

They wouldn't be flying cargo planes and heavy lift helo from an adversary.

To be a true ally, I guess, would be to be able to purchase the F-35. So in that sense India is not a true ally. But I would say it is a friend.

Maybe we should think of India as the French of South Asia? Although, right now, India may have more political influence in American politics than France. :scratchchin:

bt

USA wants to use India. India is as usual resisting. A story as old as the 50s when usa wanted India to join its camp right after independence and India said no thanks, we are non aligned. And Pakistan became a SEATO member, with all its benefits , like the latest American tanks(patton), fighter jets , technical help , etc.
Interestingly in the wars with Pakistan, the captured Indian soldiers and pilots were interrogated by Americans.
Even Indian civil entities like ISRO, the space agency was under sanctions till the early 2000s. While usa was officially helping the Chinese investigate their space launch failures in the 90s.
In our part of the world, US has had better relations with dictatorships like Pakistan and China , than with India.
Indian officials don't trust the Americans at all.
Yup India is the France of Asia. Deal with the Americans but keep them at arms length.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:48 am

maint123 wrote:
USA wants to use India.


Of course, the US want to use India . . . As a low cost producer military hardware so they can sell it around the world.

maint123 wrote:
A story as old as the 50s


The world politics has changed multiple times since then.

maint123 wrote:
our part of the world, US has had better relations with dictatorships like Pakistan and China , than with India.


Well, there was a recent anti-submarine war fare round up in the Pacific. Participants were Austrailian, Canadians, US and Indian anti-submarine aircrafts. The Chinese were not invited. What does that tell you about the current US India relations?


maint123 wrote:
Deal with the Americans but keep them at arms length.


I'm sure there are Indians who do not feel the same way. In 2010 I traveled to India to Dynamatics Technology Limited to review the first set of military hardware they built for the P-8I. A few years after that DTL became the sole supplier for said hardware for all P-8A built and are still being built. They and other Indian manufactures have steadily increased their share of US military work.

It is unfortunate that you do not see this C-change in relations as positive for India. But maybe one day, when India finally gets to build a western designed fighter, we can finally put this argument to rest.

bt
 
maint123
Posts: 415
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:16 am

bikerthai wrote:
maint123 wrote:
USA wants to use India.


Of course, the US want to use India . . . As a low cost producer military hardware so they can sell it around the world.

maint123 wrote:
A story as old as the 50s


The world politics has changed multiple times since then.

maint123 wrote:
our part of the world, US has had better relations with dictatorships like Pakistan and China , than with India.


Well, there was a recent anti-submarine war fare round up in the Pacific. Participants were Austrailian, Canadians, US and Indian anti-submarine aircrafts. The Chinese were not invited. What does that tell you about the current US India relations?


maint123 wrote:
Deal with the Americans but keep them at arms length.


I'm sure there are Indians who do not feel the same way. In 2010 I traveled to India to Dynamatics Technology Limited to review the first set of military hardware they built for the P-8I. A few years after that DTL became the sole supplier for said hardware for all P-8A built and are still being built. They and other Indian manufactures have steadily increased their share of US military work.

It is unfortunate that you do not see this C-change in relations as positive for India. But maybe one day, when India finally gets to build a western designed fighter, we can finally put this argument to rest.

bt

Wow you have convinced me.
Since usa has agreed to supply f35s to totalitarian regimes in the middle east like UAE maybe they show their trust in india by offering the same to India ?
Instead of offering 40 year old f16s ?

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