The Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) will not purchase the F-35 fighter jets owing to its new policy of buying defence hardware only if allowed participation in the software development programme.


"We are implementing a 'pur­chase-and-develop' policy in our procurement plans, which we intend to begin enforcing in the next 3-5 years," Air force commander ACM Maanat Wongwat was quoted as saying by Bangkok Post on Monday.

"The air force has a policy of not purchasing ready-made aircraft, and the F-35 manufacturer has yet to sell its jet to a buyer who wants to participate in the development of the fighter jets' software programmes," Wongwat added.

According to the new "Concept of Project Requirements (COPR)" policy, the air force will purchase defence and strategic hardware only if it is allowed to take part in the development of the software used to operate the products. The RTAF hopes to gain from technology and expertise transfer in the process.

"We have to also put our own heart and soul into the weapons and military hardware that we're going to buy. It's not that the airframe isn't that important, but the software is important too as it is the brain of a fighter jet. That's why we have to take part in developing it," said ACM Maanat.

A source at the RTAF said the air force is preparing to set up a committee to draft the COPR for the purchase of a new fleet of fighter jets, which will be announced when the RTAF begins looking for potential jet suppliers.
...

The Japanese Ministry of Defense (MoD) has confirmed to Jane’s its plans to pursue a “Japan-led” programme to develop a next-generation fighter aircraft that will replace its Mitsubishi F-2 multirole combat platform in the 2030s.

art wrote:

From a Janes article earlier this year:

The Japanese Ministry of Defense (MoD) has confirmed to Jane’s its plans to pursue a “Japan-led” programme to develop a next-generation fighter aircraft that will replace its Mitsubishi F-2 multirole combat platform in the 2030s.

https://www.janes.com/article/86159/jap ... re-fighter

In another article below, the anticipated development cost of the F-3 is reported to be in the region of $45 billion (5 trillion yen). Would Japan proceed without a partner to share some of the cost? If not, who might that partner be?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... -jet-52277

Ozair wrote:

$45 billion is an incredible sum to take on themselves...

mxaxai wrote:

If they do seek a foreign partner, and that partner isn't the USA, either of the European programs could work. One is looking for partners with engineering capacity and the other is searching for funding. Japan has both.

art wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

If they do seek a foreign partner, and that partner isn't the USA, either of the European programs could work. One is looking for partners with engineering capacity and the other is searching for funding. Japan has both.

Would make sense to join forces with FCAS or Tempest. Problem is that Japan wants to lead its own project to revive/maintain an indigenous fast jet design and manufacturing capability, so I don't see Japan joining a European project at the moment.

art wrote:

I wonder if Taiwan would be interested (if politically acceptable to Japan). Both Japan and Taiwan feel threatened by China. Taiwan has an aerospace industry and 300 or so fighters in its inventory, so could make a useful contribution and buy quite a few F-3's.

mxaxai wrote:

Ozair wrote:

$45 billion is an incredible sum to take on themselves...

I would hope that this includes the initial production batch.

mxaxai wrote:

I wonder why the F-35 doesn't cut it, seeing how it is generally considered to be as good or better than anything in production or development. Japan is a customer and partner already.

art wrote:

ADEX: Full-sized KAI KF-X mock-up unveiled

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ed-461464/

A modest design but very low development cost at an estimated $7.2 billion. Prototype scheduled for 2021. I wonder if there is an export market for a cheap stealthier twin engine fighter.

...

Despite development progress, there are signs of challenges in the jet fighter program, including a potential funding loophole. That’s because Indonesia, the only international partner of the KF-X, has been backtracking from its original commitment to investing 20 percent of the development costs. KAI is obliged to pay for 20 percent, and the government is to fund the remainder.

Under a 2016 deal, Indonesia is obliged to pay around $1.3 billion to acquire up to 48 jets called IF-X in Indonesia and get the transfer of fighter jet technologies.

But the South Asian nation has paid only $190 million, some 13 percent of its financial commitment, citing domestic budgetary constraints. As of July, Indonesia has funding shortfall of $250 million, according to DAPA officials.
Jakarta, instead of cash, has offered to make payment in kind, including the provision of CN235 transport aircraft produced by Indonesian Aerospace, also known as PTDI, under a license.
Indonesia also reportedly asked to renegotiate the terms of deals on the KF-X/IF-X, with a focus on getting more technology transfer from South Korea.
“It’s a thorny issue,” a DAPA source said, asking not to be named. “The two governments have been in consultations over the funding issue but have yet to narrow a gap.”

...

The KF-X Block I will not have an internal weapons carriage, which is planned for subsequent production blocks.

Ozair wrote:

The KF-X Block I will not have an internal weapons carriage, which is planned for subsequent production blocks.

That seems a crazy idea! If you want internal carriage do it from the start, designing that into a later aircraft is essentially creating a brand new airframe and not simply a new production block…

art wrote:

Ozair wrote:

The KF-X Block I will not have an internal weapons carriage, which is planned for subsequent production blocks.

That seems a crazy idea! If you want internal carriage do it from the start, designing that into a later aircraft is essentially creating a brand new airframe and not simply a new production block…

I'm no hardware designer but surely they mean to design an airframe with a weapons bay, albeit incomplete, to be used for internal carriage at a later point.

...Turkey is struggling to design and develop its first indigenous fighter jet. Turkish officials originally hoped to fly the “national fighter jet” in 2023, but industry sources say this is an unrealistic target.

A government official said any Su-35 deal would be an off-the-shelf purchase. “All the same, we would expect our Russian partners to assist our fighter jet program with some technology transfer,” he said.

The defence establishment plans to seek the Cabinet Committee on Security’s approval for the detailed design and prototype development of the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) by early next year.

MBDA Missile Systems announced on 22 November that it has been awarded a contract by Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) for the integration of the Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) onto the Republic of Korea Air Force's (RoKAF's) future KF-X fighter aircraft.

"The contract includes integration support to KAI, transfer of know-how and manufacture of test equipment for the KF-X integration and trials campaign," said the company in a statement, without providing any details about the value of the contract or its expected completion date.

MBDA's CEO, Éric Béranger, was quoted as saying, "We're very pleased to mark this next and important step in our partnership with KAI and the Korean Defence Acquisition Program Administration [DAPA]. South Korea is a strategic market for MBDA, and we're proud that Meteor will be providing KF-X with the world's most potent air-to-air capability."

As Jane's previously reported, the Meteor has been described by industry and military officials as providing a step-change in air-to-air combat capabilities. Whereas similar-type missiles have a relatively short boost-phase after launch, after which they glide to the target while bleeding energy, the Meteorʼs ramjet propulsion system means it is propelled up to the point of impact. This reduces the adversary aircraft's chances of escaping the missile and gives the pilot more assurance of success when engaging enemy aircraft.

MBDA's announcement comes after KAI displayed in mid-October a full-scale mock-up of the KF-X at the Seoul International Aerospace and Defence Exhibition (ADEX) 2019. KAI also showcased a mock-up of the KF-X's cockpit. As is the trend for modern combat aircraft today, the KF-X will feature a large-area display in place of the traditional multifunctional display units.

...

JayinKitsap wrote:

Are we talking about fighters that have similar capability as the F-35, or more like light attack planes.

I could see the T-7 become a cheap light attack type of plane, even some interception roles with the right sensor networks added.

JayinKitsap wrote:

To be a full 5th gen fighter or trying to go toward 6th would have incredible development costs, can the smaller firms / countries able to cover this?

art wrote:

A modest design but very low development cost at an estimated $7.2 billion. Prototype scheduled for 2021. I wonder if there is an export market for a cheap stealthier twin engine fighter.

Ozair wrote:

I wouldn’t call the T-7 advanced from the perspective of fighter technology but may be advanced in its build. I also don’t expect the T-7 to be competitive to the above listed aircraft in a fighter V fighter engagement.

If we wanted to compare potential rivals to the T-7 it would probably include Gripen, Tejas, JF-17, T-50, M-346 etc.

Devilfish wrote:

Ozair wrote:

I wouldn’t call the T-7 advanced from the perspective of fighter technology but may be advanced in its build. I also don’t expect the T-7 to be competitive to the above listed aircraft in a fighter V fighter engagement.

If we wanted to compare potential rivals to the T-7 it would probably include Gripen, Tejas, JF-17, T-50, M-346 etc.

KAI advertise the KF-X as roughly equivalent to Block 70 Falcons and early Hornets.

Ozair wrote:

What does the KF-X have to do with that list though?

Ozair wrote:

If the Koreans are only aiming for F-16Blk 70 capability then they are wasting their time and money considering exports. It won't be competitive against an F-16 on the export market given the number of F-16s that are and will remain in service for the next 30 years.

Devilfish wrote:

Ozair wrote:

What does the KF-X have to do with that list though?

The list included the Gripen...and in my mind this qualifies.....

Devilfish wrote:

[I think the Koreans' primary goals are self-sufficiency in things they could carry out and to develop local technology -- the export potential is just an offshoot. However, if they would be able to offer the KF-X cheaper than a Block 70 Viper for export successfully, then that could be the basis for the KF-X's further development which the twilight Falcon cannot look forward to any longer.

Ozair wrote:

The Gripen E hovers just outside the lightweight fighter category while the Gripen C is firmly inside it, either way both aircraft are underpowered for the fighter mission. Gripen E is unlikely to be competitive on the international market not only for its cost but capability. If we have learnt anything from the Gripen program it is that nations simply aren’t interested in a lightweight fighter except for domestic industry. The Gripen hasn’t won a single competition and continues to be beaten by the F-16 for those smaller nations seeking or modernizing their fighter fleet.

AtomicGarden wrote:

Didn't the Saab product win the Brazilian competition?

Brazil awarded a $4.5 billion contract to Saab AB on Wednesday to replace its aging fleet of fighter jets, a surprise coup for the Swedish company after news of U.S. spying on Brazilians helped derail Boeing’s chances for the deal.

...

Until earlier this year, Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet had been considered the front runner. But revelations of spying by the U.S. National Security Agency in Brazil, including personal communication by Rousseff, led Brazil to believe it could not trust a U.S. company.

“The NSA problem ruined it for the Americans,” a Brazilian government source said on condition of anonymity.
A U.S. source close to the negotiations said that whatever intelligence the spying had delivered for the American government was unlikely to outweigh the commercial cost of the revelations.
“Was that worth 4 billion dollars?” the source asked.

...

Japan says it wants international collaboration in developing its Future Fighter for the 2030s, but it wants to lead the project despite limited experience in fighter development. And it aims at a fighter much larger than any operated by a western European country; the U.S. is not offering a possible joint project.

That seems to leave only the choice of indigenous development, perhaps with help from a foreign technical partner.

Nevertheless, participation in the UK’s Tempest program may also be feasible. The Tempest project—which includes the Royal Air Force, BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce and MBDA—has a cooperation concept that leaves scope for Japan and other partners to use their own systems, weapons, propulsion and even airframes, says Air Commodore Daniel Storr, head of combat aircraft acquisition at the UK Defense Ministry.

WASHINGTON / TOKYO --- The Trump administration is pressuring Japan to choose a US defence company to develop jointly a replacement for its F-2 fighter jets as Tokyo considers a British alternative to cut its reliance on American weapons.

Pentagon officials have stepped up talks with Japan amid concerns the US could lose out to BAE Systems, the UK defence contractor developing a sixth generation Tempest stealth fighter, according to three people familiar with discussions about the F-3 programme.

art wrote:

Japan Could Pick And Choose Components From Tempest

Seems like a sensible approach to me - outside contractor for bits Japan cannot do (or would take a long time to develop) and economies of scale benefitting both parties.

art wrote:

Japan under pressure to team with US contractor rather than BAE for F-3 development

Surprise, surprise... Looks like co-operation with Tempest developer is under consideration, not just a BAE fantasy.

The Turkish government is keen to revive talks with Rolls-Royce for the design and production of its first indigenous fighter jet, the TF-X, a top cabinet minister has said.

Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said the government wants to move forward with its planned cooperation with Britain for the production of the new-generation aircraft. But Turkey must first select an engine for the TF-X and then finalize the aircraft’s full design — a process that has has lagged behind schedule.

Its aerospace and procurement officials now aim to fly the TF-X in the 2025-2026 time frame, despite an original target of 2023.

...

Earlier this year India and the United States have suspended cooperation on jet engine technology under the Defense Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) due to lack of progress of the joint working group which failed to make any progress due to stiff US export controls and General Electric which is not keen on transfer of its core proprietary technology to India.

art wrote:

MBDA to integrate Meteor missile onto the KF-X

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/mbda-to ... e-fighter/

texl1649 wrote:

Does the USN FA-XX program yet qualify as second tier? It got a very paltry budget amount and it seems unlikely to produce any 21st century successor to the Tomcat in the next 20 years.

The Navy’s analysis of alternatives (AoA) for its next-generation air-dominance fighter aircraft is almost finished, a Navy admiral told Congress.

“That AoA will be complete this spring,” Rear Adm. Scott D. Conn, director of air warfare in the Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, said during an April 4 hearing of the Tactical Air and Ground Forces subcommittee of the House Armed Services Committee.

“The final report will come out this summer, and that will inform future choices reflected in future budget cycles in terms of what we need to do to get after the lethality that we need at a cost that we can afford.”

...

With the new U.S. National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) in effect, it is highly likely that Turkey will not be able to receive its F-35 multirole stealth aircraft in the foreseeable future. The remaining 5th-generation airpower project, the MMU (Milli Muharip Ucak – the national combat aircraft), in cooperation with the British BAE systems, could start equipping the air force with combat-ready squadrons as early as the 2030s. At present, the Turkish Air Force operates the 4th-generation F-16s as the backbone of its doctrinal order of battle. Thus, in the 2020s, Turkey would need a feasible stopgap, either through an interim 4.5th-generation solution or a comprehensive F-16 modernization. An alternative way forward could be boosting the SAM (surface to air missile) capabilities to foster anti-access / area denial (A2/AD) posture while delegating air-ground missions in permissive operational environments to light attack aircraft (Armed Hurkus) and to UAVs with higher payloads and advanced sensors. Still, none of these alternatives would compensate for the deep-strike and network-centric warfare capabilities offered by the F-35.

art wrote:

Would POTUS allow F-16 updates? Assuming he would not, what fighters might Turkey acquire and how long would they need to use them?

art wrote:

My guess is FOC capability T-FX will not be inducted in large numbers much before 2035, so could Turkey acquire a few squadrons of used Typhoons?

Ozair wrote:

Probably not much point in used Tranche One Eurofighters which will never receive an AESA radar. Better to go for local production, perhaps with an initial 18-24 delivered from a European production line, and then the rest locally manufactured. Three to four years should be enough time for Turkish companies to take on manufacture of a large number of the components, especially if the companies are previous F-35 component manufacturers.

art wrote:

There are still 4 Typhoon FAL's. I guess the one in Germany will stay busy for a long time. The UK line might stay alive for some time if the Saudi/Yemen situation changes and SA wants more frames. I don't see any future for those in Spain and Italy, so tools and equipment from one/both of those could be shipped to Turkey to set up an FAL there. As you say, some component manufacture could move to Turkey, too.

Turkey could acquire better expertise in manufacturing, too.

Would be win/win, wouldn't it?

With the flight of ISPA 6, a new era is beginning for the Eurofighter Typhoon even as production of the aircraft to meet the requirements of the original four partner nations is drawing to a close. The Royal Air Force received its final Tranche 3A Typhoon (ZK439, BS155) from the BAE Systems Warton production line on September 27, the last of 159 aircraft delivered to the Royal Air Force. The Warton final assembly line will also be responsible for the 24 Typhoons ordered by Qatar, and there are still hopes of an order for 48 more aircraft from Saudi Arabia.

In Spain, the final C.16 Eurofighter (SS058, C.16-78, 10235, 14-36) has been delivered, the last of 72 Spanish aircraft (58 single-seaters and 14 two-seaters). The last German Eurofighter EF2000 (31+53, GS113) was delivered from the Manching line on December 17, 2019, the last of 143 Eurofighters for the Luftwaffe, at least for now. (The Typhoon name is not used officially in Germany or Spain). The final Italian F-2000, (MM7356, IS082), was due to make its first flight before the end of 2019, and the Italian assembly line will also produce the 28 aircraft for Kuwait.

Though notional final deliveries for Germany and Spain have now taken place, further production for Germany seems likely. The German government and Airbus Defence and Space have launched the Quadriga project to replace the Luftwaffe’s 31 Tranche 1 aircraft with seven new-build two-seat Eurofighters and 26 or even 31 single-seaters. The Eurofighter is also the front-runner to meet the Luftwaffe’s 85-aircraft requirement for a Tornado replacement. These would be split between two batches, 45 aircraft with strategic capabilities, and 40 to meet the Luftgestützte Wirkung im Elektromagnetischen Spektrum requirement with an electronic attack and escort jammer capability. Spain might also select the Eurofighter to meet its requirement for an F/A-18 Hornet replacement.

Italy is to block arms exports to Turkey because of its Syrian intervention, Foreign Minister Luigi Di Maio said Monday. He said he would sign a decree to that effect in the coming hours. Di Maio said the decree would halt "the export of arms to Turkey regarding the future of upcoming contracts and the upcoming commitments". Speaking after an EU foreign ministers meeting, Di Maio said "it was a very important foreign council in which Italy's request to all European States was to block arms exports to Turkey in future. "Because we cannot accept what it is doing. "Europe is speaking with a single voice today and all the States condemn what Turkey is doing in Syrian territory and above all everyone vowed to block arms exports".

art wrote:

Would POTUS allow F-16 updates? Assuming he would not, what fighters might Turkey acquire and how long would they need to use them? My guess is FOC capability T-FX will not be inducted in large numbers much before 2035, so could Turkey acquire a few squadrons of used Typhoons?

mxaxai wrote:

One might question which enemy Turkey wants to attack against whom the F-16 is insufficient.

art wrote:

TF-X aim is first flight with Turkish engine in 2029

Interestingly it is reported that there there are hopes of involving Malaysia in tproduction of the fighter.

art wrote:

Any realistic chance of an indigenous engine being developed and tested in time for a 2029 flight? Of course, if the engine is actually a development of the Eurojet engine used in the Eurofighter, that deadline should be achieved without too much difficulty.

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2020 ... ne-by-2029

The Indian air force is likely to insist on a clause for development of an indigenous aero engine when it clears a multi-billion dollar programme to go ahead with the next generation Advanced Multirole Combat Aircraft (AMCA) by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

Sources said that while the first two squadrons of the AMCA will be powered by a variant of American origin GE 414 engine, the project will be clearing in the coming months on the condition that a parallel process be initiated by DRDO to develop a aero engine plant with foreign collaboration. “A clear path towards developing our own aero engine is essential and should be done along the AMCA programme which is being supported. If needed, foreign collaboration from western nations that have advanced technologies can be sought,” senior officials told ET.

art wrote:

India now has pretensions of developing its own engine for the AMCA...

The Indian air force is likely to insist on a clause for development of an indigenous aero engine when it clears a multi-billion dollar programme to go ahead with the next generation Advanced Multirole Combat Aircraft (AMCA) by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

Sources said that while the first two squadrons of the AMCA will be powered by a variant of American origin GE 414 engine, the project will be clearing in the coming months on the condition that a parallel process be initiated by DRDO to develop a aero engine plant with foreign collaboration. “A clear path towards developing our own aero engine is essential and should be done along the AMCA programme which is being supported. If needed, foreign collaboration from western nations that have advanced technologies can be sought,” senior officials told ET.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/iaf-to-add-clause-on-local-engines-for-amca-fighters/articleshow/73162616.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

angad84 wrote:

No, they are asking DRDO to pick a foreign collaborator to customise a high-thrust engine for the AMCA. They want DRDO to start building on an existing engine or existing technology, neither of which exist in India, so by default foreign input is a given. If DRDO succeeds in convincing (read: lying to) the Government that they can go it alone, the blame will be laid firmly at the feet of DRDO and the MoD.

Ozair wrote:

angad84 wrote:

No, they are asking DRDO to pick a foreign collaborator to customise a high-thrust engine for the AMCA. They want DRDO to start building on an existing engine or existing technology, neither of which exist in India, so by default foreign input is a given. If DRDO succeeds in convincing (read: lying to) the Government that they can go it alone, the blame will be laid firmly at the feet of DRDO and the MoD.

Isn’t development on the Kaveri still ongoing or has it, or at least a potential higher thrust future variant, been discounted for AMCA?

Japan plans to choose a partner as early as this summer for development of its successor to the F-2 fighter jet, weighing a proposal from the U.S., its closest ally, against a British offer that would give Tokyo greater control.

While Japan and America worked together on the F-2, design details for key parts have not been disclosed to the Japanese side. And Tokyo cannot upgrade the planes freely, which has limited their usability.

Working with another country would do more than provide access to crucial technological expertise. With development costs for a single plane model potentially running into the tens of billions of dollars, a partnership would give Tokyo a built-in overseas marketing channel to help with the large-scale production and sales needed to ensure the project is financially viable.

art wrote:

US or UK? Japan Nears Decision On Partner For Next-Gen Fighter

Why would LM want to sell it in preference to F-35? Why would BAE want to sell it in preference to Tempest?.

art wrote:

I think that after investigating what sovereignty could be exercised going with LM (and assuming not enough), Japan would then have to decide if it could afford F-3 (and assuming it could not), would be forced to join the Tempest programme.

The Japanese Ministry of Defence (MoD) expects to formalise a "framework" by the end of this year through which it will collaborate with a foreign partner on its programme to develop and build a next-generation fighter aircraft, the MoD has indicated to Jane's.

The MoD also confirmed that the programme is now officially termed as "F-X" and that it has proposed a new "conceptual image" of the new aircraft, which is intended to replace the Japan Air-Self-Defense Force's (JASDF's) Mitsubishi F-2 fighter aircraft in the 2030s.