Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

TK105 · Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:37 am

LightningZ71 wrote:
It depends on how much they want to be dependent on US export restrictions. I suspect that they will still try to get an engine free of US restrictions at some point.

I think you are missing the main point here.

F110 is a very good engine with excelent track report. Turkey is capable of manufacturing it under license at TEI facilities locally. F110’s performance is good enough for MMU (TFX) performance requirements. F110’s designer GE has very good relations in Turkey and owns minority stake at TEI (TUSAS Engine Ind.). TuAF Maintenance Teams are expert in F110 and keep F16s at very good readiness level. So, is not F110 perfect for MMU?

No it is not!

MMU is supposed to be a 5th gen fighter. F110 is an old design and can not fulfill radar & IR signature requirements for a 5th gen fighter. So using F110 for prototypes and flight tests makes sense, but for serial production it is no good if MMU has to be a 5th gen fighter.

As supply of F135 is out of question for MMU, only option left for Turkey is to develop its own engine.

art wrote:
keeping US content out of TF-X should be a goal to allow shipment to countries of which US disapproves. Indeed, the invitation to companies to help Turkiye to develop an engine of the class needed for TF-X stipulates that no export controls should be imposed on Turkiye

I disagree. MMU will be a strategic asset. You can sell TB2 easily as its competion peers are easily available from China or else where. But you can not do the same for MMU. I’m sure that there will be a discussion mechanism between Turkey and its NATO Partners for such sales.

RJMAZ · Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:55 am

TK105 wrote:
So, is not F110 perfect for MMU?

No it is not!

MMU is supposed to be a 5th gen fighter. F110 is an old design and can not fulfill radar & IR signature requirements for a 5th gen fighter.

Yes the F135 and F119 has cold exhausts with low IR signature. The spinning fans and turbines also do not reflect radar to provide a low radar signature..

art · Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:36 pm

It appears that agreement (but not yet contractual) has been reached between India and France for co-development of a 110kN engine for AMCA.

https://www.theigmp.org/2022/07/indo-fr ... -amca.html

RJMAZ · Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:15 pm

But seriously the F110-GE-132 is an excellent engine for Turkey. It has great fuel efficiency as it has a medium bypass ratio of 0.68:1. The F119 is low bypass at 0.3:1 and the F135 is a decent 0.57:1. The F110-GE-132 core even has a higher pressure ratio than both the F119 and F135. GE make good cores. If all three engines were at the same power level I dare say the F110 will burn less fuel due to it having the highest bypass ratio and pressure ratio.

The F110 is also a full metre shorter than the F135 so while the engines are similar weight the smaller engine will allow for better packaging for the air intakes and weapons bays providing an actual weight reduction.

A pair of F110-GE-132 engines put out 290kn of combined thrust. This is nearly 60% greater than the F-35. It is also more thrust than the Russian T-50 and Chinese J-20 and they are both very large fighters

Top speed and supercruising has a lot to do with the fuselage shape, wing sweep and mach angle. I'm sure the F110-GE-132 could easily push an aircraft up towards Mach 3 if the airframe was shaped like a XF-108 Rapier. The F-111 and SR-71 had very low thrust to weight ratios but were extremely quick.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_F135
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_F119
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F110

Even the F110 at 145kn might be too big for Turkey. That is nearly double the thrust of the M88 used in the Rafale that is only 75kn. The French are keen to make an evolved M88 engine for their 5th gen fighter and it is 100+kn. This would allow for a fighter slightly bigger than the F-35. I could see India, France and Turkey all using the same engine based off the M88.

bunumuring · Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:46 am

Hey guys,
I heard this morning on Australia's 'Radio National' that the Philippines have downselected the F-16V Viper and the Gripen C/D as the final two contenders for an order for twelve fighters plus either four or six options. No other details given....
Take care,
Bunumuring.

mxaxai · Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:14 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Yes the F135 and F119 has cold exhausts with low IR signature. The spinning fans and turbines also do not reflect radar to provide a low radar signature..

Obligatory NCD post: https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDef ... d_martins/

art · Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:43 am

South Korea’s KF-21 Completes First Flight

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... rst-flight
Video inc take off and landing approach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwtPMAkR-rI

art · Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:27 pm

A full-scale model of Turkey’s stealth fighter is on display, but it might not take long before the real thing comes to Farnborough. At a media briefing yesterday, Turkish Aerospace (TA) president and CEO Temel Kotil described the extraordinary timescale set for the development and production of the TF-X.

Rollout is “250 days away, and counting,” Kotil declared. The goal is for the TF-X to emerge on March 18 next year, a date that has been celebrated in Turkey since 1915, when the Ottomans repulsed the Allied attempt to capture the Dardanelles and Istanbul. The first flight will follow exactly two years later, with deliveries following by 2028, according to Kotil.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... th-fighter

Lots of confidence shown here. No new engine deal implemented for it though. Sounds like AMCA - engine will probably arrive too late to use in early production aircraft.

art · Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:16 am

5th generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: Talks with international engine manufacturers at nascent stage

Final call on the partner will be taken by the Defence Ministry after weighing the offers put forward by engine manufacturers regarding Transfer of Technology and development costs.

Discussions with international engine manufacturers on the co-development of the engine for the fifth generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) are still under way. Sources within the Defence PSUs involved in the development of the aircraft confirm that the talks are at a nascent stage.

A Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) officer on condition of anonymity told The Indian Express that the final call will be taken by the Ministry of Defence (MoD). “The co-development of the engine of AMCA will happen with an international partner. We are seeing what engine manufacturers are offering regarding the Transfer of Technology (TT) and development costs. So we have not yet finalised the manufacturer .”

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... 1379/lite/
So... the selection of a co-development partner (SAFRAN, RR and GE are in the mix) is still to be made. And I thought I heard the fat lady starting to sing!

TK105 · Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:48 pm

TUSAS CEO (ex TK CEO) Mr. Kotil gave an interview during Farnborough Airshow. MMU (TFX) was also discussed during this interview:

- Total 14 prototypes will be manufactured by 2028
- 12 of them will have F110
- 2 of them will have local indigenous engine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EenGD6X1nRM (in Turkish)

12 prototypes with F110 engine looks more than necessary. Perhaps they want use them for airshows/demonstrations or to replace aging NF-5 aircrafts of Turkish Stars, TuAF's acrobatic team.

art · Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:05 pm

TK105 wrote:
TUSAS CEO (ex TK CEO) Mr. Kotil gave an interview during Farnborough Airshow. MMU (TFX) was also discussed during this interview:

- Total 14 prototypes will be manufactured by 2028
- 12 of them will have F110
- 2 of them will have local indigenous engine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EenGD6X1nRM (in Turkish)

12 prototypes with F110 engine looks more than necessary. Perhaps they want use them for airshows/demonstrations or to replace aging NF-5 aircrafts of Turkish Stars, TuAF's acrobatic team.

12 MMU with F110 by 2028 - realistic IMO
2 MMU with indigenous engine by 2028 - very unrealistic IMO. Reason I say that is I don't believe that Turkiye is capable of designing and manufacturing an engine with acceptable reliability in less than 6 years. Look at the proposal SAFRAN has made to India: if a deal is signed very soon, the engine will be ready in 12 years.

art · Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:47 pm

Its now expected that the Mark 1 variant of AMCA MK1 will be rolled out in 2026 and its first flight will occur in 2027. IAF expects the MK1 to complete its development by 2032. And intends to order 2 squadrons of MK1 before moving onto the more advanced MK2.

Regarding Cabinet sanctions, insiders indicate that the wheels are rolling and important clearances for both these projects will happen in near future. Many sources have pointed out to some funding constraints, but the upcoming sanctions should clear those concerns.

https://iadnews.in/tejas-mk2-1st-flight ... 2-in-2027/

Given that the Indian procurement process is not fit for purpose with many interminable delays, the mention of upcoming sanctions clearing funding restraints does not bode well to me. A 2027 first flight could drift to 2028 or later.

The IAF is 10 or more fighter squadrons below strength. The last 3 MiG-21 squadrons are planned for retirement by 2025. As an indication of how badly development projects can be handled in India, the Tejas Mk2 project is intended to use 4 aircraft for testing but funding has not been provided for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th development aircraft so a delay in completing development testing looks inevitable to me.

So, Tejas is about 25 years behind schedule (was intended to start replacing hundreds of MiG-21 fighters from the mid-1990's), Tejas Mk2 is 5-10 years behind schedule, AMCA Mk1 with GE F414 engine is not yet fully funded and one can only speculate as to its in-service date. The in-service date of AMCA Mk2 with an Indian/foreign OEM co-developed engine looks very uncertain since no deal has been finalised with a foreign OEM.

And India has ambitions to become a major force in the international market for fighters!

art · Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:02 pm

In the latest development surrounding the KF-21, South Korea is seeking to begin mass production of the jets by 2026, with the air force to acquire 40 planes. By 2026, the high-end fighter will focus on having air-to-air combat capabilities.

https://www.businessinsider.com/south-k ... ?r=US&IR=T

Manila will consider the Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) KF-21 fighter for its long-running multi-role fighter (MRF) competition, as it also eyes an additional 12 FA-50PH light attack jets.

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/kf ... 73.article

Devilfish · Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:21 am

art wrote:
Manila will consider the Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) KF-21 fighter for its long-running multi-role fighter (MRF) competition, as it also eyes an additional 12 FA-50PH light attack jets.

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/kf ... 73.article

I joined this site hoping to get some insight into what the PAF might reasonably aspire for. Sixteen years on and it still remains a wish. I'd be over the moon were it to be the KF-21 indeed...even with actual performance, development and serial production pending.

https://www.thedefensepost.com/wp-conte ... 70x610.jpg

Alas...the FG article's description of Manila's fighter acquisition plan as "murky" may be spot on. Leave alone the air force's combat readiness and operations budgets at a time when the country is up to its eyeballs in hock. :dollarsign:

Odds are it's going to be a new squadron of Block 20 FA-50PH at most...but I'd be very happy to be surprised. :spin:

muralir · Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:06 pm

art wrote:
Its now expected that the Mark 1 variant of AMCA MK1 will be rolled out in 2026 and its first flight will occur in 2027. IAF expects the MK1 to complete its development by 2032. And intends to order 2 squadrons of MK1 before moving onto the more advanced MK2.

Regarding Cabinet sanctions, insiders indicate that the wheels are rolling and important clearances for both these projects will happen in near future. Many sources have pointed out to some funding constraints, but the upcoming sanctions should clear those concerns.

https://iadnews.in/tejas-mk2-1st-flight ... 2-in-2027/

Given that the Indian procurement process is not fit for purpose with many interminable delays, the mention of upcoming sanctions clearing funding restraints does not bode well to me. A 2027 first flight could drift to 2028 or later.

The IAF is 10 or more fighter squadrons below strength. The last 3 MiG-21 squadrons are planned for retirement by 2025. As an indication of how badly development projects can be handled in India, the Tejas Mk2 project is intended to use 4 aircraft for testing but funding has not been provided for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th development aircraft so a delay in completing development testing looks inevitable to me.

So, Tejas is about 25 years behind schedule (was intended to start replacing hundreds of MiG-21 fighters from the mid-1990's), Tejas Mk2 is 5-10 years behind schedule, AMCA Mk1 with GE F414 engine is not yet fully funded and one can only speculate as to its in-service date. The in-service date of AMCA Mk2 with an Indian/foreign OEM co-developed engine looks very uncertain since no deal has been finalised with a foreign OEM.

And India has ambitions to become a major force in the international market for fighters!

It looks like the at least the Tejas budget, and perhaps the AMCA one as well, are now advancing:
https://www.jagranjosh.com/current-affa ... 62014376-1

Not sure how long it takes from cabinet approval to getting into the final budget though...

art · Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:55 am

According to South Korean media reports, Indonesia has failed to stick to a repayment schedule both countries agreed upon in November 2021 despite multiple promises to resolve the issue from various officials, including its president, Joko Widodo. As of July, the country was reportedly behind to the tune of $557 million.

Indonesia seeks to buy up to 50 KF-21s and is keen for local industry to take part in the manufacturing process.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... -payments/

Perhaps South Korea needs a KF-21 order from Indonesia so much that it will tolerate unpredictable payments from its wayward co-developer. Not sure if that can work if Indonesia orders aircraft for domestic assembly. I don't see how suppliers could put up with non-payment of components delivered and carry on supplying.

art · Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:56 am

On Friday a team from Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) met with the UK-based Rolls Royce to discuss the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Engine.

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... s/2704355/

I do not think that any RR offering of an enhanced EJ200 developed in conjunction with India will come to anything. The visit to RR may increase pressure on SAFRAN to finalise a deal for their M-88-based proposition. It was hoped that a deal with SAFRAN would be signed by mid-2022.

art · Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:54 am

Defexpo 2022 is currently running in India. Update on AMCA from the ADA

Defexpo 2022: AMCA ready to be rolled out in three years if approved
19 OCTOBER 2022

India's fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) can be rolled out in little more than three years if the government sanctions the project, senior project leaders said.

The AMCA represents India's efforts to develop a viable domestic fifth-generation stealth fighter to match China's CAIG J-20 Mighty Dragon and the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter jets. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the structural design partner for the project, initiated manufacturing activities for the aircraft in March 2020.

Sounds great: could be rolled out late 2025. But the article continues

However, India's Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has not yet cleared the project for development. “The aircraft can be rolled out within three years and six months after approval of development is made,” said A K Ghosh of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), project director for the AMCA project, speaking to Janes during Defexpo 2022, being held from 18 to 22 October in Gandhinagar, Gujarat.

“Following the rollout, the first flight can be conducted six months to one year later. The [project] is at an advanced stage of development,” Ghosh added.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air- ... f-approved

My take: CDR is late. Assuming that CDR is further delayed to Q1 or Q2 2023 and in the following 12 months CCS meet and approve the project, finance is approved and monies paid over, work will not start in earnest on building the prototype until 2024. Allowing 3 years to build the first frame, I would expect rollout 2027.

art · Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:02 am

According to Janes, Indonesia has restarted payment to South Korea of KF-21 development costs.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... outh-korea

Indonesia interested in producing its own 4.5G fighter? Seems a bizarre idea to me, given involvement in the KF-21 programme.

Indonesian aerospace firm Infoglobal has unveiled a mock-up of a 4.5-generation fighter aircraft concept, known as the i-22 Sikatan, at the Indo Defence 2022 exhibition in Jakarta.

The concept was conceived in collaboration with local aerospace design firm Vimana Litbang & Rekayasa, which is headed by former commercial unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) pilot, Sunanto Ajidarmo.

Speaking to Janes at the exhibition, Sunanto described the i-22 Sikatan as a twin-engine fighter aircraft concept with a design that draws inspiration from the Saab JAS Gripen. It features a reduced radar cross-section design and utilises largely composite materials to enhance its stealth characteristics, he added.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... er-concept

art · Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:49 pm

The US has revived an offer to cooperate with India on the development of jet engine technology which could be used to power the Mk-2 variant of India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

General Electric (GE) of the US, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of jet engines, has submitted a proposal for the co-development of a 110 kN thrust engine with Indian agencies for the stealth fighter.

Technologies developed for a 116 kN thrust derivative of GE’s F414 engine will be the baseline in this offer of cooperation, Youngje Kim, GE Aviation’s vice-president for Asia-Pacific Region Military Systems Operation disclosed to BW Businessworld in an exclusive interview.

“All technologies previously asked for by the government of India will be offered,” Kim announced. India had earlier sought the core engine or hot section technology for jet engines under the India-US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) but was turned down.

https://www.businessworld.in/article/Se ... 22-452691/

Might be the cheapest way for India to get TOT for a fast jet engine. An engine that could be used for AMCA - 120 orders expected, TEDBF (Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter) - 50+ orders expected, possibly Tejas Mk2 - 140+ orders expected. Assuming each aircraft needed to be re-engined twice during its service life, India could end up building close to 1,000 engines during the programme as replacement engines. Even more if there were top up orders or export orders for AMCA or TEDBF or Tejas Mk2. The engine could also be used to power another fighter - ORCA (Omnirole Combat Aircraft), a possible land-based version of TEDBF.

art · Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:10 pm

British Giant BAE Systems Wants to Deepen Relations with Turkish TF-X

https://www.turdef.com/Article/british- ... -tf-x/2372

I was surprised to read that Preliminary Design Review is not yet completed but the prototype is scheduled for rollout in March 2023.

art · Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:12 pm

Four months after the first, a second prototype of the KF-21 Boramae fighter jet conducted its first flight out of Korea Aerospace Industries’ facility near Sacheon airport, South Korea.

Much like its predecessor, the aircraft stayed airborne for around 35 minutes, according to the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), South Korea’s procurement agency. It was flown by a pilot from the 3rd Flying Training Wing of the Republic of Korea Air Force (ROKAF), also based in the vicinity of the airport.

“Following the success of Unit 2's first flight, the Korean-made fighter is expected to conduct flight tests with two aircraft,” DAPA announced in a press release. “After completing preparations for ground tests and flight tests, Prototype Units 3 to 6 are scheduled to begin flight tests sequentially from the end of December '22 to the first half of '23.”

https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3261 ... rst-flight

art · Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:19 pm

Union minister of state for defence Ajay Bhatt informed Parliament earlier this year that the fifth-generation fighter aircraft are costlier than the fourth-generation aircraft due to their special features. However, since AMCA is an indigenous project, it will be less costly than similar aircraft available in the market. Defence scientists claim that the basic aircraft—without weapons package, maintenance cost and upgrades specific to India—may cost around 50-60 per cent cheaper than what is available in the market. “However, when the life-cycle cost is assessed, it will definitely be cheaper by around 70 per cent,” said a scientist.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2022-10-25

Quite remarkable, if it turns out to be the case. Life cycle cost around 30% of F-35? If he is right, the AMCA should achieve enormous worldwide sales.

Just needs a foreign OEM to co-develop the engine and an Indian company to build the aircraft. Neither has been arranged in the ten years plus that have elapsed since the programme started.

art · Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:32 am

The Indonesian Ministry of Finance (MoF) has granted approval for the country to obtain up to USD3.9 billion in foreign loans for three separate proposals that have been put forward to sustain the Indonesian Air Force's (TNI-AU's) combat capabilities.

These include a bid to procure Mirage single-engine multirole fighter aircraft from the Qatar Emiri Air Force (QEAF) and a second batch of between 12 and 18 Dassault Rafale multirole combat aircraft for the TNI-AU.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air- ... programmes

Makes me wonder whether Indonesia will end up ordering and building KF-21 or not (assuming finance for Rafales and Mirages can be arranged).

art · Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:48 pm

Turkish TF-X (otherwise known as MMU) prototype is coming together. Slated for rollout mid-March 2023. However incomplete it may be, it is likely to be rolled out on the target day of March 18 as this is Turkey's Gallipoli Victory Day.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air- ... y-roll-out

art · Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:26 am

Jung Gwang-seon, KF-X Program Lead 2016-2022, says in interview

- agreement with Indonesia does not cover ToT of core technology
- Indonesia will not receive 5th prototype as planned unless payments are brought up to date
- Indonesia will not be able to gain anything unless it becomes a more willing partner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb01pt04qdk

art · Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:06 am

Rishi Sunak (UK prime minister) is set to announce a collaboration between the UK, Italy and Japan to develop a new fighter jet that uses artificial intelligence.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63908284

art · Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:18 pm

deleted

art · Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:27 pm

Could Poland become involved in the KF-21 project?

"I would be happy if we could participate in the Korean KF-21 fighter project," said Sebastian Hwawek, Head of PGZ, the largest state organization for the Polish defense industry.
"If we establish a production line for KF-21 components in Poland, we will be able to offer strong sales to our neighbors as part of the European Union," Hwawek added.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeXYrpuoRY

Poland sounds like a much better partner than Indonesia. Might Poland take over from unreliable Indonesia in this project?

RJMAZ · Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:11 pm

art wrote:
Poland sounds like a much better partner than Indonesia. Might Poland take over from unreliable Indonesia in this project?

Multiple partners would also work. I could see the KF-21 being extremely successful. The iterative design and development process used by South Korea reminds me of SpaceX. It is by far the fastest form of systems development.

The KF-21 would already be stealthier than anything made in Europe. Hopefully flight testing goes smoothly and it enters production while development of the block 20 happens in parallel.

The biggest problem is most partners seem to want more than their fair share of production and technology transfer. This will be the biggest hurdle.

Poland would make a good partner because they would be happy with the tech transfer and not demand an unfair share of parts production. France and Germany by comparison would say they already have the technology so they would want an even greater share of production.

Saab would also make a good partner with KF-21. Sweden could operate a squadron of KF-21 above the Gripen E in a high-low combat mix. Then closer to 2040 they could replace all their fighters with the latest KF-21 version.

889091 · Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:05 am

Where the heck is Poland getting their dineros from? Apaches, tanks, FA-50......now this?

GDB · Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:01 am

889091 wrote:
Where the heck is Poland getting their dineros from? Apaches, tanks, FA-50......now this?

On the ‘Poland in 15B Deal With South Korea’ thread, the latest entry, two weeks ago, I linked an in depth article about Poland’s arms buying spree.

Away from Ukraine, this week's Perun deep dive goes into the huge Polish procurement, background, rationale, with guest The Chieftain to comment of the K2 MBT's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrbaAKZfjwg

Small by comparison, though not the only defence/tech transfer deal;
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/land ... -relations

More on the FA-50;
https://defence24.com/armed-forces/pola ... -3-billion

889091 · Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:55 am

GDB wrote:
889091 wrote:
Where the heck is Poland getting their dineros from? Apaches, tanks, FA-50......now this?

On the ‘Poland in 15B Deal With South Korea’ thread, the latest entry, two weeks ago, I linked an in depth article about Poland’s arms buying spree.

Away from Ukraine, this week's Perun deep dive goes into the huge Polish procurement, background, rationale, with guest The Chieftain to comment of the K2 MBT's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrbaAKZfjwg

Small by comparison, though not the only defence/tech transfer deal;
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/land ... -relations

More on the FA-50;
https://defence24.com/armed-forces/pola ... -3-billion

Thanks GDB. BTW the last 2 links are broken, but I went to the other thread and looked them up.

Apart from the 1st YouTube link, which mentions Poland's low labour cost as part of the contributing factor in terms of being able to afford to spend so much so quickly on new hardware, it also touches briefly on 'budgetary black magic' and Poland's desire to raise defense spending from the current level of 2.2% to 3% of GDP - it doesn't really say where all the $ is coming from. Is the EU somehow backfilling this? I doubt it, as the EU will have to be very transparent with their spending.

With the current global economic situation, I cannot help but draw parallels to AirAsiaX's massive order of A330NEOs a few years ago over in CivAv. Only time will tell.

Back to the current topic - Indonesia was also initially very keen and look how that turned out.

art · Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:06 am

RJMAZ wrote:
art wrote:
Poland sounds like a much better partner than Indonesia. Might Poland take over from unreliable Indonesia in this project?

Poland would make a good partner because they would be happy with the tech transfer and not demand an unfair share of parts production. France and Germany by comparison would say they already have the technology so they would want an even greater share of production.

Saab would also make a good partner with KF-21. Sweden could operate a squadron of KF-21 above the Gripen E in a high-low combat mix. Then closer to 2040 they could replace all their fighters with the latest KF-21 version.

Gripen E deliveries to SwAF are just getting under way. I don't see Sweden retiring them after around 15 years of service, especially since I do not think that KF-21 is designed to operate from roads with minimum skilled labour required. That is an important requirement for SwAF, isn't it?

Having said that, where does SAAB go after Gripen E? I guess that Gripen E will be the last solo effort for Sweden. If Sweden chooses not to be involved with the successor to the Tempest project, taking part in designing later blocks of KF-21 could be helpful to both KAI and SAAB.

744SPX · Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:24 am

889091 wrote:
GDB wrote:
889091 wrote:
Where the heck is Poland getting their dineros from? Apaches, tanks, FA-50......now this?

On the ‘Poland in 15B Deal With South Korea’ thread, the latest entry, two weeks ago, I linked an in depth article about Poland’s arms buying spree.

Away from Ukraine, this week's Perun deep dive goes into the huge Polish procurement, background, rationale, with guest The Chieftain to comment of the K2 MBT's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrbaAKZfjwg

Small by comparison, though not the only defence/tech transfer deal;
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/land ... -relations

More on the FA-50;
https://defence24.com/armed-forces/pola ... -3-billion

Thanks GDB. BTW the last 2 links are broken, but I went to the other thread and looked them up.

Apart from the 1st YouTube link, which mentions Poland's low labour cost as part of the contributing factor in terms of being able to afford to spend so much so quickly on new hardware, it also touches briefly on 'budgetary black magic' and Poland's desire to raise defense spending from the current level of 2.2% to 3% of GDP - it doesn't really say where all the $ is coming from. Is the EU somehow backfilling this? I doubt it, as the EU will have to be very transparent with their spending.

With the current global economic situation, I cannot help but draw parallels to AirAsiaX's massive order of A330NEOs a few years ago over in CivAv. Only time will tell.

Back to the current topic - Indonesia was also initially very keen and look how that turned out.

Maybe the US is backfilling this...

art · Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:18 am

The CEO of Turkish Aerospace, Temel Kotil, revealed a number of new details about the TF-X programme during a briefing held on 8 December.

He stated that the maiden flight of the indigenous fighter jet will be conducted on 29 October 2024, one year earlier than the initial plan, which scheduled the first flight for 2025.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air- ... h-by-2029/

art · Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:08 pm

According to idrw (Indian military news website), AMCA Mk1 CDR should be approved by IAF by March 2023. Once approved by IAF this will need to be approved by the cabinet committee on security in order for the programme to be officially launched after which the ministry of finance needs to approve financing. After which funds need to be provided to the constructor. So the current picture looks like (to me)

IAF approval Q1 2023
CCS approval H2 2023
MoF approval H2 2023/H1 2024?
Provision of funding H1/H2 2024?

In the same idrw video, it is mentioned that sub-systems from the GCAP (sometime Tempest programme) will be offered to India, South Korea and Indonesia. Of greatest interest to India, I think, would be buying engines to power AMCA Mk2 if no deal to co-develop an engine is done with GE, SAFRAN or RR. It needs to be remembered that no suitable engine for AMCA Mk2 exists as yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0VOHKKHlE4

LightningZ71 · Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:33 pm

art wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
art wrote:
Poland sounds like a much better partner than Indonesia. Might Poland take over from unreliable Indonesia in this project?

Poland would make a good partner because they would be happy with the tech transfer and not demand an unfair share of parts production. France and Germany by comparison would say they already have the technology so they would want an even greater share of production.

Saab would also make a good partner with KF-21. Sweden could operate a squadron of KF-21 above the Gripen E in a high-low combat mix. Then closer to 2040 they could replace all their fighters with the latest KF-21 version.

Gripen E deliveries to SwAF are just getting under way. I don't see Sweden retiring them after around 15 years of service, especially since I do not think that KF-21 is designed to operate from roads with minimum skilled labour required. That is an important requirement for SwAF, isn't it?

Having said that, where does SAAB go after Gripen E? I guess that Gripen E will be the last solo effort for Sweden. If Sweden chooses not to be involved with the successor to the Tempest project, taking part in designing later blocks of KF-21 could be helpful to both KAI and SAAB.

Earlier this year, FMV contracted with Saab to work on that very project by initiating design studies on a future indigenous airframe in addition to participating in multi-national projects on a new fighter or modules used on multiple ones. I feel that Sweden will want an indigenous design that addresses their particular concerns. Of all of the designs that are from third parties, the only one that comes close to meeting their home defense needs is the F-35B in that it can operate from the rather austere conditions that they require in their fighters, however, it likely has too large of a logistics footprint for them. I think that they will enter into foreign partnerships in technology development, but come up with their own design that follows a similar track to the Gripen and the KF-21 in that there will be an early model that is of somewhat reduced capabilities, with largely carryover systems from the Gripen-E where possible and somewhat limited stealth, followed by a final design that fully addresses their goals.

tapairbus370 · Sun Dec 25, 2022 10:26 pm

TF-X news

https://eurasiantimes.com/competitor-to ... attac/?amp

No engine yet but test of the frame to start soon

PS : I find this news site a bit biased but....

art · Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:38 am

Assembly of first TF-X airframe appears to be nearing completion. Claimed to be 'leaked' photo in post #854 on linked page:

https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/t ... 30/page-43

889091 · Mon Dec 26, 2022 1:35 pm

tapairbus370 wrote:
TF-X news

https://eurasiantimes.com/competitor-to ... attac/?amp

No engine yet but test of the frame to start soon

PS : I find this news site a bit biased but....

Not much room between the main landing gear recess and the front of the air intake - that's gotta be one big angled S duct....

art · Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:07 pm

An insight into the KF-21 testing programme...

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... ight-tests

RJMAZ · Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:11 pm

art wrote:
An insight into the KF-21 testing programme...

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... ight-tests

This is excellent news

while KAI has recently outlined a possible carrier-capable KF-21N variant.

As I posted previously the KF-21 layout looks very carrier friendly. India and France are the only potential carrier customers. India's AMCA has specs nearly identical to the KF-21 and it even plans to use the same F414 engines.

RJMAZ · Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:36 pm

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... st-flight/

Turkey is reminding me of the skunkworks with very rapid prototyping. I think with digital engineering the airframe structure is becoming much easier to develop. It's the engines, sensors and avionics that take up the vast majority of the development budget.

I think Turkey will have a twin engine manned fighter in the air that looks like a 5th gen fighter. I can't see Turkey getting access to foreign engines and sensors with the highest performance. I guess that 4th gen sensors and engines in a 5th gen airframe would still beat aircraft like the Typhoon and Rafale. A low radar cross section should make up for having inferior sensors.

JonesNL · Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:20 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2022/12/19/turkeys-future-unmanned-fighter-jet-conducts-first-flight/

Turkey is reminding me of the skunkworks with very rapid prototyping. I think with digital engineering the airframe structure is becoming much easier to develop. It's the engines, sensors and avionics that take up the vast majority of the development budget.

I think Turkey will have a twin engine manned fighter in the air that looks like a 5th gen fighter. I can't see Turkey getting access to foreign engines and sensors with the highest performance. I guess that 4th gen sensors and engines in a 5th gen airframe would still beat aircraft like the Typhoon and Rafale. A low radar cross section should make up for having inferior sensors.

Is it correct that this will be the first unmanned fighter jet to enter production?

art · Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:06 pm

1st KF-21 took to the sky 19h Jul 2022
2nd KF-21 took to the sky 10th Nov 2022
3rd KF-21 took to the sky 5th Jan 2023

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDAiTpjWyfw

TK105 · Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:32 pm

Latest about MMU

Engine power up within days.
Roll out within weeks.
First flight within 2023.

By the way, could you kindly change topic name as "Other advanced fighter projects news and discussion" as MMU is certainly not going to be a second tier fighter.

RJMAZ · Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:04 pm

TK105 wrote:
as MMU is certainly not going to be a second tier fighter.

It is second tier. It's using 40 year old engines. Turkey has no access to advanced avionics and they cant be made locally. The Korean KF-21 looks the same and it is using newer engines that have a better thrust to weight ratio.

TF-X will be like an overweight KF-21 with 4th gen avionics. Definitely second tier.

The General Electric F110-GE-129 used by Turkey has a thrust to weight ratio of only 7.50:1

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F110

The newer and more advanced General Electric F414 used by Korea has a thrust to weight ratio of 9:1. This engine is worthy of powering a 5th gen fighter. It is like a scaled down F-22 engine. The F414 is powering NASAs X-59 supercruise test vehicle as it is capable of supercruising.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414

art · Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:07 pm

TK105 wrote:
Latest about MMU

Engine power up within days.
Roll out within weeks.
First flight within 2023.

By the way, could you kindly change topic name as "Other advanced fighter projects news and discussion" as MMU is certainly not going to be a second tier fighter.

The prototype looks almost ready to roll to my untrained eye. I wonder if all the systems planned for installation before rollout will be installed to meet the historic March 18 target rollout date.

Bringing first flight forward last month from 2025 to late 2024 and now to 2023 means things are going very smoothly, I guess. Congratulations to TAI on their management of the contract. I suppose the first flight being moved to the left means that all the subsystems required for flight will be well ahead of schedule.

Last year a number of Turkish companies showed interest in developing a suitable indigenous engine for the TF-X. I wonder how that is progressing and whether the selected candidate will be able to acquire the technological know how to execute such an ambitious project successfully. If it becomes apparent that the project will take many more years than hoped to complete, I wonder if the engine emerging from the ex-Tempest, now GCAP programme might be used to replace F110 until a viable Turkish engine becomes available (if it ever does reach viability).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/pauliddon/ ... -finished/

art · Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:12 am

There are reports on Indian social media and elsewhere that the IAF has signed off on AMCA's CDR, opening the path to the production of prototypes after Cabinet Committee on Security clears the project and funding is thereafter forthcoming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQGnHWevwYo

Indonesia not given its KF-21 prototype.

Under the terms of the original pact between South Korea and Indonesia, the latter was to bear 20% of the cost of developing the first phase of the KF-21 program (about $6.5 billion), for which it would receive the technology transfer needed to manufacture some 50 to 60 units in the country… and it would also receive prototype n°5.

https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/11/in ... prototype/

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