RJMAZ wrote:

I don't see how Turkey can make the TF-X. They have never made a basic jet trainer yet they are aiming for a stealth, supersonic, 5th gen fighter with advanced avionics straight off the bat. They will probably not have access to the best western systems.

I can see them producing an overweight, underpowered, non combat capable, handbuilt and flyable prototype by 2030. All show, no go. A revised version then gets forced into service in extremely low numbers to save face. It ends up having extremely low reliability and very basic combat capability similar to a 4th gen fighter. Turkey will continuously say it is the most advanced 5th gen fighter in the world. It will never see a single international sale.

Who here agrees with this prediction?

You are more optimistic than I am; none of the numbers add up. This whole project is to feed the nationalism among the Turkish population. I wouldn’t be surprised if we will never see a prototype flying…

art wrote:

Two months after its much-ballyhooed April 9 unveiling, the KF-21 Boramae is being dismantled, raising awkward questions about the true readiness of the prototype of Korea's first indigenously developed fighter jet.

Noooo What are they going to use now for the Top Gun sequel...pure CGI?

Devilfish wrote:

art wrote:

Two months after its much-ballyhooed April 9 unveiling, the KF-21 Boramae is being dismantled, raising awkward questions about the true readiness of the prototype of Korea's first indigenously developed fighter jet.

Noooo What are they going to use now for the Top Gun sequel...pure CGI?

Might as well, that's what they're doing with the F-14 in the Top Gun sequel.

Indonesian aerospace engineers are returning to South Korea to resume work on the KF-21 Boramae / IF-X.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/ja ... 49.article

This suggests that counterpart Indonesian development funding is forthcoming. Is Dassault's Rafale sales campaign in Jakarta faltering?

art wrote:

I wonder if they know the prototype was rolled out a few months ago.

A prototype is just that. A prototype. Typically it is made from cheaper material to prove a concept or provide sufficient flight hours for initial testing.

You still need massive Engineering work to finalize the production design, using more durable (more expensive) materials, and at the same time, manufacturing processes better suited for "mass production" (less expensive).

bt

HAL orders F404 engines for the Tejas Mk1A and is eyeing license-built F414 engines for the Mk2A program.
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... s-fighter/

Hindustan Aeronautics chooses GE engine for India’s Tejas fighter

NEW DELHI — India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited on Tuesday signed a $716 million contract with GE Aviation for F404-GE-IN20 engines for the homemade LCA Mk1A Tejas light combat aircraft.

HAL ordered 99 of the engines as well as support services from GE Aviation, the Indian firm said in a statement.

Morocco is interested in "stealth weaponry", though "stealth" appears to be more focused on UAVs rather than crewed fighters.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/mide ... air-force/

Here are Morocco’s top priorities for modernizing its Air Force

“The U.S. has been most effective in boosting Morocco’s access to stealth weaponry, specifically U.S. drones [and] precision-guided munitions as well as laser-guided munitions,” he added.
...
“The U.S. and Turkey are working together on bolstering Morocco’s stealth capabilities, as 12 Bayraktar TB2 drones will soon arrive in Morocco,” Ramani said.

art wrote:

Turkey's TF-X to cost $100 million a piece?

ANKARA, Turkey — A Ukrainian engine will power Turkey’s new Atak II-class T929 helicopter, the head of Turkish Aerospace Industries announced Monday in a TV interview, during which he also identified the price of the future TF-X fighter jet as $100 million per unit.

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/te ... st-turkey/

Can Turkey produce an aircraft in small numbers at this cost? I don't see it... but being a Muslim state perhaps Turkey sees the aircraft as a way of gaining influence in the Muslim world (eg the Gulf) by offering something the US won't supply due to Israeli/American Jewish lobby influence. I'm sure that any takers will pay a high price through package costs in any deal, just as with US and northern European suppliers.

I am trying to find something that backs up the "he said" part of the price and can't find anything? Clicking all the links in the articles and there is no direct quote that I can se either. Trying to figure out if it is accurate and if so what it covers for the program and costs.

Tugg

art wrote:

Old news but indicative of the state of the TF-X programme...

Turkey asks US to buy 40 Lockheed Martin F-16 jets

https://www.dailysabah.com/business/def ... ources/amp

Turkey knows it's going to be a long time until they have their 5th gen fighter.

art wrote:

TF-X may not receive US Congress approval for supply of GE F110 engine

“It is not a secret that the general mood about Turkey in Congress is very gloomy. I am observing a kind of over-optimism in Ankara about a U.S.-made engine,” said Ozgur Eksi, an Ankara-based defense analyst.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/12 ... sian-tech/

No F110, no TF-X first flight until near the end of the decade (if a home grown engine is miraculously certified by then). Would Congress really deny permission for supply of F110?

Yet we sell everything but the kitchen sink to Saudi Arabia. Typical congressional hypocrisy.

744SPX wrote:

Yet we sell everything but the kitchen sink to Saudi Arabia. Typical congressional hypocrisy.

That's because you can't get gold plated kitchen sink though FMS.

Hypocritical, yes, but consistent with the time. Oil is still important and allies should not buy major weapon systems from our adversary.

The India buy of Russian SAM will be a test of this theory.

bt

art wrote:

you should not defend your airspace except with what US accepts.

Defend your airspace with what ever you can buy, but depending on your choice, you should expect consequences. Although the selection of the SAM is probably a result of political calculations with political result.

art wrote:

Is India an ally of the US? Don't think so. In the 1970's US blocked possible SAAB Viggen exports to India. In 1990's US sanctioned India for nuclear tests, inter alia unilaterally breaching its contract to develop FMS software for India's new indigenous fighter. US has supported Pakistan (arguably a 'terrorist state' as defined by US) in order to better pursue its activities in Afghanistan. India owes no allegiance to US. Russia has been an ally, Definitely not the US. US is more of an adversary of India.

This is the 21st century my friend. While I am too removed to be definitive, I'd say India is leaning more friend, if not ally, than adversary.

Case in point:

India is flying the most sophisticated MMA in the world and is about to order more.

They are building fuselage for the premier attack helicopter in the word for various customers, not necessarily just for India.

They wouldn't be flying cargo planes and heavy lift helo from an adversary.

To be a true ally, I guess, would be to be able to purchase the F-35. So in that sense India is not a true ally. But I would say it is a friend.

Maybe we should think of India as the French of South Asia? Although, right now, India may have more political influence in American politics than France.

bt

art wrote:

To what extent that is because India is in conflict with China

The political side is major, but only account for part of the "C" change.

Culturally, the tech boom in the '90s brought forth a mini migration of Indian to the US which can not but help improved personal ties.

Econnomically, because of that improvement India is becoming a low cost subcontractor for US military equipment, something neither China nor to a lesser extent Vietnam can attain. You can probably say the high offset requirement of India military procurement contribute to the acceleration of that effort.

bt

Problem is no one else except Russia has an available engine in the thrust class that Turkey is looking for with this aircraft. (Saturn AL-41F1)

The French would sell an engine to the devil.

The French led FCAS stealth fighter is using an evolved M88 that won't be far off the thrust to the F110. The M88 will be more power dense that allows better packaging and extra fuel inside the fighter.

RJMAZ wrote:

The French would sell an engine to the devil.

The French led FCAS stealth fighter is using an evolved M88 that won't be far off the thrust to the F110. The M88 will be more power dense that allows better packaging and extra fuel inside the fighter.

What kind of nonsense are you spouting ?
France has yet to sell an engine alone, the M88 that left France were attached to a rafale body or as spare parts.

kelval wrote:

What kind of nonsense are you spouting ?
France has yet to sell an engine alone, the M88 that left France were attached to a rafale body or as spare parts.

I guess they are too busy selling nuclear tech to China.

Turkey is part of NATO and was considered an essential ally back in the cold war. Erdoğan has been less of an ally than the written agreements to be a member of NATO require. Turkey was one of the partners in the F-35 program, which have stringent requirements about classified information. Both of these REQUIRED Turkey to not buy Russian & similar 'bad boy' countries military equipment. Further the S-400 'watching' F-35's close by as well as the OEM support teams on the same base as US equipment gives an amazing opportunity to gather intel and to learn the signatures to break its stealth. Turkey's direction appears to be going toward the Dark Side as well, once it decides to come back to the west things will improve, but not before.

India is not part of NATO, nor in the F-35 program yet, but has been decent with respect to classified information. That has allowed them to buy the P-8's as well as a lot of other equipment. I doubt them getting the F-35, but the QR version of the F-15ex would be possible. India would be allowed to buy engines except for the most recent models for fighters, any engine in production for transports and the like. Also, engines for drones are probably fine, provided that we won't be facing them on a future battlefield.

JayinKitsap wrote:

QR version of the F-15ex would be possible.

If they want and can afford it, they can get the F-15EX. After all, they will be building components for it.

I suspect the EX version will incorporate some of the cost savings from digital manufacturing, thus should cost less than the QR.

bt

art wrote:

TF-X mockup puts in an appearance at Singapore Airshow

https://aviationweek.com/shownews/singa ... pore-debut

According to the article, 'TAI plans to roll out the first nonflying TF-X prototype in 2023, then fly the first Block 0 aircraft three years later.'

I had a registration issue with the link but the following has the same story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwdhE7ZKIwE

Blatantly derivative of a 35-year-old design that was itself inferior in aerodynamics and stealth to the YF-23.

bikerthai wrote:

art wrote:

you should not defend your airspace except with what US accepts.

Defend your airspace with what ever you can buy, but depending on your choice, you should expect consequences. Although the selection of the SAM is probably a result of political calculations with political result.

art wrote:

Is India an ally of the US? Don't think so. In the 1970's US blocked possible SAAB Viggen exports to India. In 1990's US sanctioned India for nuclear tests, inter alia unilaterally breaching its contract to develop FMS software for India's new indigenous fighter. US has supported Pakistan (arguably a 'terrorist state' as defined by US) in order to better pursue its activities in Afghanistan. India owes no allegiance to US. Russia has been an ally, Definitely not the US. US is more of an adversary of India.

This is the 21st century my friend. While I am too removed to be definitive, I'd say India is leaning more friend, if not ally, than adversary.

Case in point:

India is flying the most sophisticated MMA in the world and is about to order more.

They are building fuselage for the premier attack helicopter in the word for various customers, not necessarily just for India.

They wouldn't be flying cargo planes and heavy lift helo from an adversary.

To be a true ally, I guess, would be to be able to purchase the F-35. So in that sense India is not a true ally. But I would say it is a friend.

Maybe we should think of India as the French of South Asia? Although, right now, India may have more political influence in American politics than France.

bt

USA wants to use India. India is as usual resisting. A story as old as the 50s when usa wanted India to join its camp right after independence and India said no thanks, we are non aligned. And Pakistan became a SEATO member, with all its benefits , like the latest American tanks(patton), fighter jets , technical help , etc.
Interestingly in the wars with Pakistan, the captured Indian soldiers and pilots were interrogated by Americans.
Even Indian civil entities like ISRO, the space agency was under sanctions till the early 2000s. While usa was officially helping the Chinese investigate their space launch failures in the 90s.
In our part of the world, US has had better relations with dictatorships like Pakistan and China , than with India.
Indian officials don't trust the Americans at all.
Yup India is the France of Asia. Deal with the Americans but keep them at arms length.

maint123 wrote:

USA wants to use India.

Of course, the US want to use India . . . As a low cost producer military hardware so they can sell it around the world.

maint123 wrote:

A story as old as the 50s

The world politics has changed multiple times since then.

maint123 wrote:

our part of the world, US has had better relations with dictatorships like Pakistan and China , than with India.

Well, there was a recent anti-submarine war fare round up in the Pacific. Participants were Austrailian, Canadians, US and Indian anti-submarine aircrafts. The Chinese were not invited. What does that tell you about the current US India relations?

maint123 wrote:

Deal with the Americans but keep them at arms length.

I'm sure there are Indians who do not feel the same way. In 2010 I traveled to India to Dynamatics Technology Limited to review the first set of military hardware they built for the P-8I. A few years after that DTL became the sole supplier for said hardware for all P-8A built and are still being built. They and other Indian manufactures have steadily increased their share of US military work.

It is unfortunate that you do not see this C-change in relations as positive for India. But maybe one day, when India finally gets to build a western designed fighter, we can finally put this argument to rest.

bt

bikerthai wrote:

maint123 wrote:

USA wants to use India.

Of course, the US want to use India . . . As a low cost producer military hardware so they can sell it around the world.

maint123 wrote:

A story as old as the 50s

The world politics has changed multiple times since then.

maint123 wrote:

our part of the world, US has had better relations with dictatorships like Pakistan and China , than with India.

Well, there was a recent anti-submarine war fare round up in the Pacific. Participants were Austrailian, Canadians, US and Indian anti-submarine aircrafts. The Chinese were not invited. What does that tell you about the current US India relations?

maint123 wrote:

Deal with the Americans but keep them at arms length.

I'm sure there are Indians who do not feel the same way. In 2010 I traveled to India to Dynamatics Technology Limited to review the first set of military hardware they built for the P-8I. A few years after that DTL became the sole supplier for said hardware for all P-8A built and are still being built. They and other Indian manufactures have steadily increased their share of US military work.

It is unfortunate that you do not see this C-change in relations as positive for India. But maybe one day, when India finally gets to build a western designed fighter, we can finally put this argument to rest.

bt

Wow you have convinced me.
Since usa has agreed to supply f35s to totalitarian regimes in the middle east like UAE maybe they show their trust in india by offering the same to India ?
Instead of offering 40 year old f16s ?