Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

bikerthai · Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:50 am

maint123 wrote:
Since usa has agreed to supply f35s to totalitarian regimes in the middle east like UAE maybe they show their trust in india by offering the same to India ?
Instead of offering 40 year old f16s ?

UAE F-35 sale was a political gift for establishing relations with Israel.

UAE also have support US War effort since before Gulf War 1.

And yes the US has relationships with dictatorships before. Even as part of NATO (Turkey and Spain).

And not F-16s, but if India wants I believe they can get the latest version of the F-15s as that have been proposed by Boeing.

Time will tell. I will not be surprised if the E-7A would be offered to India if the US decide to buy some.

As for the F-35? Perhaps down the road near the end of production or when it looks like China will invade Taiwan.

bt

art · Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:38 pm

maint123 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
maint123 wrote:
USA wants to use India.

Of course, the US want to use India . . . As a low cost producer military hardware so they can sell it around the world.

maint123 wrote:
A story as old as the 50s

The world politics has changed multiple times since then.

maint123 wrote:
our part of the world, US has had better relations with dictatorships like Pakistan and China , than with India.

Well, there was a recent anti-submarine war fare round up in the Pacific. Participants were Austrailian, Canadians, US and Indian anti-submarine aircrafts. The Chinese were not invited. What does that tell you about the current US India relations?

maint123 wrote:
Deal with the Americans but keep them at arms length.

I'm sure there are Indians who do not feel the same way. In 2010 I traveled to India to Dynamatics Technology Limited to review the first set of military hardware they built for the P-8I. A few years after that DTL became the sole supplier for said hardware for all P-8A built and are still being built. They and other Indian manufactures have steadily increased their share of US military work.

It is unfortunate that you do not see this C-change in relations as positive for India. But maybe one day, when India finally gets to build a western designed fighter, we can finally put this argument to rest.

bt

Wow you have convinced me.
Since usa has agreed to supply f35s to totalitarian regimes in the middle east like UAE maybe they show their trust in india by offering the same to India ?
Instead of offering 40 year old f16s ?

Invading a neighbouring country for no reason except wanting to re-integrate it into one's past empire is seen as an unacceptable action. I (along with millions of others in Europe) have noted that the government of India does not find it unacceptable. They showed just that at the UN yesterday.

F-35 for India? In view of recent events, you must be joking. India has just shown itself to be a Russian sycophant.

If there is no change of heart, will US block shipments of GE engines to India? How inclined will US be to waive CAATSA where Indian S-400 is concerned? My guess is that for the foreseeable future India's ambition of producing an Indian engine for use in Indian-designed fighters in conjunction with GE/RR/SAFRAN is less likely to be realised.

bikerthai · Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:30 pm

art wrote:
F-35 for India? In view of recent events, you must be joking. India has just shown itself to be a Russian sycophant.

Politics is such a fickle beast.

Does that mean that UAE who also abstained, will not get their F-35? And China abstained when you would think they would vote no.

With Russia holding permanent veto rights, action through the UN will be moot.

Let's wait and see.

bt

maint123 · Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:42 pm

art wrote:
maint123 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:

Of course, the US want to use India . . . As a low cost producer military hardware so they can sell it around the world.

The world politics has changed multiple times since then.

Well, there was a recent anti-submarine war fare round up in the Pacific. Participants were Austrailian, Canadians, US and Indian anti-submarine aircrafts. The Chinese were not invited. What does that tell you about the current US India relations?

I'm sure there are Indians who do not feel the same way. In 2010 I traveled to India to Dynamatics Technology Limited to review the first set of military hardware they built for the P-8I. A few years after that DTL became the sole supplier for said hardware for all P-8A built and are still being built. They and other Indian manufactures have steadily increased their share of US military work.

It is unfortunate that you do not see this C-change in relations as positive for India. But maybe one day, when India finally gets to build a western designed fighter, we can finally put this argument to rest.

bt

Wow you have convinced me.
Since usa has agreed to supply f35s to totalitarian regimes in the middle east like UAE maybe they show their trust in india by offering the same to India ?
Instead of offering 40 year old f16s ?

Invading a neighbouring country for no reason except wanting to re-integrate it into one's past empire is seen as an unacceptable action. I (along with millions of others in Europe) have noted that the government of India does not find it unacceptable. They showed just that at the UN yesterday.

F-35 for India? In view of recent events, you must be joking. India has just shown itself to be a Russian sycophant.

If there is no change of heart, will US block shipments of GE engines to India? How inclined will US be to waive CAATSA where Indian S-400 is concerned? My guess is that for the foreseeable future India's ambition of producing an Indian engine for use in Indian-designed fighters in conjunction with GE/RR/SAFRAN is less likely to be realised.

you are confusing India with the British or the Pakistanis. we have never been America's poodle .
In 1971 usa threatened India with the nuclear 7th fleet.
Bangladesh is still up and running fine.
India has one of the most anti usa voting record in the UN. And proud of it.

bikerthai · Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:58 pm

maint123 wrote:
India has one of the most anti usa voting record in the UN. And proud of it.

I would reset those vote count sometime at the beginning beginning of the tech boom.

All around me I see Indian-Americans working in engineering and medical professions among many other fields, including US domestic politics. As politics will follow cultural and human ties, I see the bonds strengthening. Those who bank on the antagonistic ties are living in the past.

Just note that India has just accepted their 12th of 12 P-8I and is in negotiation for more.

bt

sabby · Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:47 pm

art wrote:

F-35 for India? In view of recent events, you must be joking. India has just shown itself to be a Russian sycophant.

If there is no change of heart, will US block shipments of GE engines to India? How inclined will US be to waive CAATSA where Indian S-400 is concerned? My guess is that for the foreseeable future India's ambition of producing an Indian engine for use in Indian-designed fighters in conjunction with GE/RR/SAFRAN is less likely to be realised.

You seem to not know the history and geography of India. Let me help you !

India is surrounded by Pakistan and China and India had wars with them multiple times since independence (1947). You know who USA helped fund in terms of ammunitions, fighter planes etc. ? Pakistan. India lost thousands of troops in several wars and USSR (Later Russia) supported India via Arms and Aircraft sales, technology transfer and joint development programs which helped India gain the upper hand in many of those wars.
India chose to be neutral during the cold war (the origin of the phrase "third world country" if you didn't know) and they try to keep the same line. As far as I know, India have no plans to buy F35s, they just spent a lot of money on Rafale planes and technology transfer.

Indian rep at UN was quite clear that they don't want war and want everyone to resolve problems via discussions and hence chose to abstain rather vote against. Keep in mind, thousands of Indian students are recently stuck in Ukraine so India definitely do not want this war. But they can't afford to lose their major arms and fighter plane supplier along with an historic ally against Pakistan & China.

bikerthai · Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:04 pm

sabby wrote:
Pakistan. India lost thousands of troops in several wars and USSR (Later Russia) supported India via Arms and Aircraft sales, technology transfer and joint development programs which helped India gain the upper hand in many of those wars.

It is understandable that some still harbor ill feelings toward the US for their support of Pakistan.

But get with the times. Pakistan and their tacit support of the Taliban has soured their relationship with the US.

I mean even Vietnam has warned their relations with the US after such a bloody war.

bt

sabby · Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:28 pm

bikerthai wrote:
sabby wrote:
Pakistan. India lost thousands of troops in several wars and USSR (Later Russia) supported India via Arms and Aircraft sales, technology transfer and joint development programs which helped India gain the upper hand in many of those wars.

It is understandable that some still harbor ill feelings toward the US for their support of Pakistan.

But get with the times. Pakistan and their tacit support of the Taliban has soured their relationship with the US.

I mean even Vietnam has warned their relations with the US after such a bloody war.

bt

I think you totally missed my point. Geopolitics doesn't care about feelings, its about being more pragmatic.
India have improved relationship with US and West significantly. The west also recognises that India (largest democracy in the region & the world) is the answer to counter China's geopolitics as well as to counter many unstable countries in South Asia. However, the state of Indian defense is not at a state so they can afford to go against Russia. And even if they could, they wouldn't do a 180 turn cnosidering Russia is much closer and in a better position to counter China and Pakistan.
Let me try to give you an example, if Trump would be reelcted and invaded north of Mexico stating it was to prevent illegal immigration - would Trudeau stop trading with US completely and vote against US in the UNSC meeting ? I would bet not. He would probably make some strong comments and condemn the action but do very little in terms of action.

Actually, I can even point you out when US attacked Iraq citing the fake "WMD" excuse and many NATO allies actually joined US forces rather than condemning and voting against US in the UNSC.

bikerthai · Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:35 am

Sabby,

I have no issue with India abstaining from the vote. I was pointing out that that vote will not hurt US/India relationship.

My point is that some here uses the vote as proof that India is still leery of the US and relationship is still stuck back in The 60's.

I for one do not believe this and will put a small amount of money that India will be building western, most likely US fighter planes within the decade.

bt

maint123 · Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:44 am

bikerthai wrote:
Sabby,

I have no issue with India abstaining from the vote. I was pointing out that that vote will not hurt US/India relationship.

My point is that some here uses the vote as proof that India is still leery of the US and relationship is still stuck back in The 60's.

I for one do not believe this and will put a small amount of money that India will be building western, most likely US fighter planes within the decade.

bt

60s ?
The f16 block 52 were supplied to Pakistan in 2010 . Also in the 2000s , usa upgraded a lot of the Pakistani older f16s at American taxpayers expense. Free of cost.
And till the rafales came recently, these f16s were arguably the most sophisticated fighter jets in the subcontinent. Gave Pakistan carte blanche to conduct terrorism in India, as it had the backing of America.
And I am not stuck anywhere, the Indian polity , including bureaucracy know this for a fact. No wonder India went with france for our jets procurement and didn't consider American planes at all.
With usa , nearly all defense procurement is in non critical sectors like transport planes and surveillance planes. Frankly I don't even think that the USA is supplying India with the latest surveillance technology in these p-8s. That it reserves for its NATO partners.
Offering India the f35s would be game changing in my view. Now that would be a paradigm shift.
Else it's all talk.

bikerthai · Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:02 am

maint123 wrote:
Frankly I don't even think that the USA is supplying India with the latest surveillance technology in these p-8s.

The technology is the the latest. Now, the sensitivity of the equipment, that is a different matter.

maint123 wrote:
transport planes and surveillance planes.

Don't forget attack helicopters. And for that matter, India is assembling fuselages for those helicopters in country. India has supplanted Pakistan with respect to military cooperation with the US.

maint123 wrote:
That it reserves for its NATO partners.

A little nit pick, but the RAAF is not NATO and they do get everything the US Navy gets. And Korea pretty much as well.

With that in mind I still believe India has the Inside track to build the fighter variant of the T-7A for export and would be more successful than anything coming out of Turkey.

bt

art · Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:06 am

bikerthai wrote:
As for the F-35? Perhaps down the road near the end of production or when it looks like China will invade Taiwan.

bt

India plans to have its own AMCA in service by mid-2030's. What need F-35? And before AMCA, Tejas Mk2, Rafale and 100+ foreign fighters may be ordered.

art · Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:11 pm

Indian website reports that Germany (through Eurojet?) and US have refused to supply engines for the TF-X. Russia is no longer an option due to new sanctions. That leaves UK and Ukraine as possible sources (although I imagine that Ukraine is doubtful, due to the country being invaded by Russia).

Coverage starts at 3min 30sec into video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeLQHhr_zBE

art · Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:42 pm

SAFRAN selected as partner for co-development of an engine to power AMCA. RR was also in talks for the business.

India and France are close to concluding a deal, likely in the next couple of months, for the joint development of a 125KN engine for the indigenous fifth generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) under development, according to defence officials. The collaboration is between the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and French engine maker Safran.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 090271.ece

muralir · Fri Mar 11, 2022 1:08 am

maint123 wrote:
[
Offering India the f35s would be game changing in my view. Now that would be a paradigm shift.
Else it's all talk.

That won't happen, but not for the reason you list. IMHO, I think that long-term, the US would have given serious consideration to bringing India into the F35 program, not just as a buyer but potentially as a subcontractor. But that all changed when India bought the Russion S400. The US does not want the F35 and the S400 in the same country, as that would allow the country to test the S400 against the F35, develop accurate radar profiles, and essentially break the F35's stealth advantage. Sure, technically that information would be "secret" and remain within the country, but this type of secret information has a way of leaking out. The last thing the US wants is for India to develop radar profiles of the F35 for their Russian anti-air defense systems, then have that information leak back to Russia to load into their own S400s.

This is the reason Turkey was rapidly removed from the F35 program as soon as they bought the S400. Despite being a NATO member and still nominally a US ally, they are not part of the F35 program for this reason. India would be no different.

art · Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:24 pm

Info on KF-21 progress...

https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/01/ka ... good-pace/

If the schedule is holding, first flight should be around 100 days from now.

art · Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:35 pm

TAI is offering its yet to fly Hurjet to Malaysia in the tender for 18 light fighter/trainer aircraft. It is reported that Turkey is now offering joint production on the Hurjet and partner status in the TF-X to Malaysia.

https://eurasiantimes.com/turkey-makes- ... -as-india/

art · Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:27 pm

Some info from February about testing the KF-21 Boromae...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -milestone

First flight scheduled 10-11 weeks from now (if the revised, earlier FF by end June schedule is met). I wonder if video of taxi tests and high speed runs will be released.

art · Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:11 am

Some info about the KF-21 Boromae AESA testing schedule....

https://www.ajudaily.com/view/20220304110520980

art · Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:18 am

Metal cutting for the first HAL AMCA prototype started in March 2022...

https://www.businessworld.in/article/Bi ... 22-422590/

art · Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:04 am

In an interview Group Director of AMCA programme reveals that AMCA top speed - previously reported as mach 1.8 - will be mach 2+

http://idrw.org/amca-will-be-mach-2-fig ... ore-281682

PS I think this refers to AMCA Mk2 with 125kN engine.

Irt · Sun May 08, 2022 9:10 pm

art wrote:
In an interview Group Director of AMCA programme reveals that AMCA top speed - previously reported as mach 1.8 - will be mach 2+

http://idrw.org/amca-will-be-mach-2-fig ... ore-281682

PS I think this refers to AMCA Mk2 with 125kN engine.

Does top speed on full burner even matter these days?

Anyone here even belives that India will be able to pull this AMCA project off? I mean considering how much trouble they had with the "simple" Tejas fighter, i have a hard time seeing them succed with a 5th gen F35 class fighter.

744SPX · Mon May 09, 2022 2:23 pm

Irt wrote:

Does top speed on full burner even matter these days?

If you're Lockheed, it doesn't; or at least that's the reasoning they are using to justify their decision not to address the F-35B and C's complete failure to meet top speed specifications and the A's time limit at top speed.

Spinning a negative into a positive. Coming from the company that built the Blackbird, its pathetic.

bajs11 · Wed May 11, 2022 6:45 am

bikerthai wrote:
art wrote:
F-35 for India? In view of recent events, you must be joking. India has just shown itself to be a Russian sycophant.

Politics is such a fickle beast.

Does that mean that UAE who also abstained, will not get their F-35? And China abstained when you would think they would vote no.

With Russia holding permanent veto rights, action through the UN will be moot.

Let's wait and see.

bt

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-12-14/
its been "on hold" since last year

The sale of 50 F-35 warplanes made by Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) to the UAE had slowed amid concerns in Washington over Abu Dhabi's relationship with China, including use of Huawei 5G technology in the country.

744SPX wrote:
Irt wrote:

Does top speed on full burner even matter these days?

If you're Lockheed, it doesn't; or at least that's the reasoning they are using to justify their decision not to address the F-35B and C's complete failure to meet top speed specifications and the A's time limit at top speed.

Spinning a negative into a positive. Coming from the company that built the Blackbird, its pathetic.

how often do you think they will use that awesome mach 2(?) top speed?
https://youtu.be/Xo3arfoGbvc

Irt · Wed May 11, 2022 10:16 am

bajs11 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
art wrote:
F-35 for India? In view of recent events, you must be joking. India has just shown itself to be a Russian sycophant.

Politics is such a fickle beast.

Does that mean that UAE who also abstained, will not get their F-35? And China abstained when you would think they would vote no.

With Russia holding permanent veto rights, action through the UN will be moot.

Let's wait and see.

bt

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-12-14/
its been "on hold" since last year

The sale of 50 F-35 warplanes made by Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) to the UAE had slowed amid concerns in Washington over Abu Dhabi's relationship with China, including use of Huawei 5G technology in the country.

744SPX wrote:
Irt wrote:

Does top speed on full burner even matter these days?

If you're Lockheed, it doesn't; or at least that's the reasoning they are using to justify their decision not to address the F-35B and C's complete failure to meet top speed specifications and the A's time limit at top speed.

Spinning a negative into a positive. Coming from the company that built the Blackbird, its pathetic.

how often do you think they will use that awesome mach 2(?) top speed?
https://youtu.be/Xo3arfoGbvc

Yeah thats my point.. If it tops out at m1.8 or m2 0 dosnt realy make a difference since u basically never fly at those speeds.

art · Tue May 24, 2022 6:52 am

Japan shifting F-3 development foreign input from LM to BAE?

https://thediplomat.com/2022/05/japan-m ... x-with-uk/
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air- ... th-the-uk/
https://toyokeizai.net/articles/-/589560 (has English language option)

muralir · Thu May 26, 2022 7:53 am

art wrote:
Metal cutting for the first HAL AMCA prototype started in March 2022...

https://www.businessworld.in/article/Bi ... 22-422590/

Honest question: what does that mean in terms of where this project is?

Metal cutting is a largely ceremonial event, sort of like the first shovel of dirt moved when constructing a building.

Given that the critical design review has yet to be completed, where exactly does the project stand on its stated timelines? On schedule?

I admit, I'd be surprised if the AMCA is completed on schedule, so that's why I'm cautious about extrapolating from a ceremonial metal cutting event. But if it means there's been significant progress and the project is genuinely on track, that's great news.

art · Fri May 27, 2022 12:48 am

muralir wrote:
art wrote:
Metal cutting for the first HAL AMCA prototype started in March 2022...

https://www.businessworld.in/article/Bi ... 22-422590/

Honest question: what does that mean in terms of where this project is?

Metal cutting is a largely ceremonial event, sort of like the first shovel of dirt moved when constructing a building.

Given that the critical design review has yet to be completed, where exactly does the project stand on its stated timelines? On schedule?

I admit, I'd be surprised if the AMCA is completed on schedule, so that's why I'm cautious about extrapolating from a ceremonial metal cutting event. But if it means there's been significant progress and the project is genuinely on track, that's great news.

Where the project is? Experience with the schedules, revised schedules, revised revised schedules and so on in the earlier Tejas LCA project suggests that little credence can be paid to any projections emanating from the largely government-owned Indian military industrial complex. Blame for multiple delays can also be laid at the feet of lethargic, inefficient and over-complex government bureaucracy as well as inefficient air force bureaucracy. However it is planned for series production of AMCA to be undertaken by a new public/private sector company which could be much more effective.

IIRC critical design review was scheduled to be finished by end 2021. In December 2021, however, the head of the Indian Air Force said that the critical design review should be finished in early 2022. I cannot find an announcement that CDC has been completed yet. When it is completed a government committee needs to give the project the go ahead. IIRC that was due mid-2022 but now looks to be later, possibly pushing first flight back to 2025/2026 and the start of series production to 2029/2030 rather than the hoped for 2028.

It was anticipated that its CDR would also be completed this December, but it now more realistically targeted for end-2022.

Girish Deodhare, who heads the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) – the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) agency that oversees the Tejas and AMCA programmes – told Business Standard that the AMCA’s stealth shaping had been completed, its design is now mature and its internal systems are laid out. The accord of the CDR next year would clear the way for metal cutting – the symbolic start of constructing a flying prototype.

In an exclusive visit by Business Standard to HAL, designers stated: “The AMCA’s first flight is targeted for 2024-25. We plan to build five prototypes for a flight-testing programme that would take about four years. By 2028-29, we plan to begin series manufacture.”

https://www.ajaishukla.com/2021/12/hal- ... h-gen.html

youtube report:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk6LaPZO64o

art · Sun May 29, 2022 7:23 am

Janes reports that a consensus on co-operation between Japan and BAE on the F-3 is expected by the end of 2022.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air- ... -x-fighter

art · Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:17 pm

The F110 turbofan engine, which will be used in MMU [MMU is National Combat Aircraft or Milli Muharip Uçak in Turkish, previously known as TAI TF-X], was delivered to Turkey from the United States and will be used in the prototype aircraft.

The news was announced by Abdurrahman Seref Kan, who is the head of the aircraft department of the Presidency of the Defense Industry of Turkey, writes SavunmaSanayiST.com. Kan announced the information to journalists during the 9th seminar on on-air and aeronautical systems.

Sources in Turkey say the prototype of the national fighter jet developed by TAI is due to leave the hangar on March 18, 2023.

https://newsaboutturkey.com/2022/06/02/ ... n-fighter/

art · Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:04 am

Turkey has sent Rolls-Royce a request for proposals as it seeks a deal to co-produce an engine for the country’s indigenous fighter jet, the TF-X, according to the government’s chief procurement official.

https://news.yahoo.com/turkey-sends-rol ... 35607.html

art · Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:15 pm

KAI KF-21 should take flight very soon.

The ground test progress rate has been around 50% of the whole test plan up to this point (based on test conditions). However, around 95% of the test conditions for safe flight (SOF) that must be completed before the maiden flight have been completed. A ground run test set to begin next week is expected to fill the remaining 5%. Furthermore, assuming the runway test goes as planned, Prototype No. 1 should take flight for the first time next month.

https://seasia.co/2022/06/14/kf-21-bora ... ound-tests

art · Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:50 am

AMCA engine deal with SAFRAN outlined:

https://idrw.org/france-to-hold-joint-i ... a-program/

This would be a departure from India's earlier intention to co-develop a new 110kN engine with a foreign OEM with no strings attached regarding its further development or application. If the investment required by India is around 1 billion euros as reported then it looks likely to me that this will be an uprated M-88. To me sounds like a great deal... for France: an uprated M-88 for Rafale with India footing much of the bill.

The article mentions that it would replace the GE F414 engine used in the upcoming Tejas Mk2 but Tejas Mk2 is scheduled to go into production before 2030 while the development schedule mentioned for the co-developed engine is 7 years from contract signing to running a pre-production engine.

744SPX · Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:24 am

Why don't they just use the F414 EPE? Its been ready and waiting for over 10 years now and has 115kN.

Kiwirob · Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:08 am

744SPX wrote:
Why don't they just use the F414 EPE? Its been ready and waiting for over 10 years now and has 115kN.

Why use a US engine with all the baggage that comes with it? Not having US content means India doesn't have to ask US permission every time they sell an aircraft to someone else.

art · Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:48 am

744SPX wrote:
Why don't they just use the F414 EPE? Its been ready and waiting for over 10 years now and has 115kN.

It sounds like someone in India is thinking along the same lines as you. The first 40 AMCA (Mk1 specification) could use the F414-GE-400 116kN version to be used in Super Hornets.

Having seen how projects in India can be multiple years (or in the case of LCA decades) late in delivering, it is useful that there is an engine available which would be suitable for AMCA Mk2. If the proposed SAFRAN co-development never starts or is years late or is abandoned, F414-GE-400 can come to the rescue.

http://idrw.org/india-might-switch-to-f ... ore-286753

ThePointblank · Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:58 pm

744SPX wrote:
Why don't they just use the F414 EPE? Its been ready and waiting for over 10 years now and has 115kN.

Because that engine doesn't exist. The USN has not funded development of the F414 EPE, and it only exists as a concept.

What the USN HAS funded is the F414 EDE; a F414 variant with enhanced durability, reliability, and fuel consumption.

art · Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:30 am

The AMCA engine saga continues...

General Electric (GE) of the US, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of jet engines, has submitted a proposal for the co-development of a 110 kn thrust engine with Indian agencies.

Top military sources have confirmed to BW Businessworld that GE is being considered along with Safran of France and Rolls Royce of the UK for collaboration on the AMCA engine.

http://bwdefence.businessworld.in/amp/a ... 22-434264/

art · Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:31 pm

The KAI KF-21 ,which was scheduled for its maiden flight in July - subsequently brought forward to June, is now again expected to take to the air in July.

Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) has completed a range of ground tests for its KF-21 Boramae fighter aircraft, paving the way for its first flight in July. The development was first broadcast by Korean news agency MBC.

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... july-first

art · Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:10 pm

SAFRAN has reportedly offered to co-develop a 110kN for AMCA at a cost of 5-6 billion euros, with certification by 2035.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sa ... &FORM=VIRE

Unfortunately this development schedule is out of sync with India's plans to start production of Tejas Mk2, TEDBF (Twin Engined Deck Based Fighter) well before the engine would be certified. These aircraft would possibly use the new engine, if it were available in time. After testing 100-150 Tejas Mk2 are expected to be ordered for the IAF. 50+ TEDBF are expected to be ordered for the IN.

It looks like India has prevaricated so long on sourcing a co-developed engine that the only Indian fighter to use it may be AMCA Mk2. It looks like all other Indian fighters - Tejas Mk1, Tejas Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA Mk1 will be powered by GE engines.

muralir · Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:10 pm

The biggest point of contention with all of these engine proposals is transfer of technology and export controls. I'm curious if there's a significant difference between these 3 national proposals in those terms? Generally speaking, France tends to be the most lenient in export controls, and my guess is the US would be most lenient with technology transfer (since they're already working on a 120kN version of the F414). But does anyone know how these proposals stack up on these criteria?

Also, I'm curious why India isn't pursuing a Russian partner. They'd probably be the most cooperative of all, and even if their technology is not as advanced, it's still far more than what India's capable of, and might bootstrap their industry faster than dealing with the drip-drip-drip of hand-me-down tech transfer from Western countries.

art · Sat Jul 09, 2022 8:51 am

KF-21 taxis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKOiwclSke4

art · Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:54 pm

SAFRAN wants an order for 1000 of the proposed co-developed engines to be used for AMCA (and as replacement engines for Tejas Mk2 and TEDBF aircraft.).

https://idrw.org/india-to-give-1000-engine-commitment/

art · Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:44 am

Turkey invites proposals for an engine for TF-X

Demir [government’s top procurement official] said the government’s sine qua nons — or essential requirements — are:

Production of the planned engine in Turkey.
Intellectual property rights owned by Turkey.
No export license restrictions.
Cost effectiveness.

If IP rights and freedom to export the engine cannot be secured (quite possibly the case) then it sounds like Turkiye may resort to using the F110. IMO thoughts of developing an engine domestically are unrealistic.

“It is likely that we may use the F110 in serial production [of the TF-X],” Demir said.

https://www.defensenews.com/miltech/202 ... er-engine/

TK105 · Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:41 pm

art wrote:
Turkey invites proposals for an engine for TF-X

It is discussed widely in the Turkish Industry about how to solve engine issue for the MMU (TFX) project. In general, industrial is well aware that only limited foreign help may come from UK (RR) and/or Ukraine (Motor Sich) for the development of an indigenous engine with the required technical/commercial specs.

“It is likely that we may use the F110 in serial production [of the TF-X],” Demir said.

This is false information (writer of the article is famous for his on purpose false informations). F110 is going to be used only for prototypes. Indigenous engine will be used for the serial production.

art · Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:12 pm

TK105 wrote:
art wrote:
Turkey invites proposals for an engine for TF-X

It is discussed widely in the Turkish Industry about how to solve engine issue for the MMU (TFX) project. In general, industrial is well aware that only limited foreign help may come from UK (RR) and/or Ukraine (Motor Sich) for the development of an indigenous engine with the required technical/commercial specs.

“It is likely that we may use the F110 in serial production [of the TF-X],” Demir said.

This is false information (writer of the article is famous for his on purpose false informations). F110 is going to be used only for prototypes. Indigenous engine will be used for the serial production.

Are you saying that Demir did not say what the writer of the article claims he said?

TF-X (as it has been called outside Turkiye) is scheduled to be rolled out March 2023 with entry into service from 2029 according to Wikipedia. That leaves very little time to negotiate a deal to co-develop an engine with a foreign company and to develop and certify it for use. I think it would be impossible to develop an indigenous airworthy engine until some time in the 2030's. For that reason I think that F110 will probably have to be used unless TF-X production and entry into service is pushed back several years. Of course, it may be possible to use a new engine for replacements during the aircraft's service life and for later production aircraft.

You may know more than me but why do you think Turkiye is capable of developing an indigenous engine in time to use it for TF-X?

TK105 · Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:44 pm

art wrote:
You may know more than me but why do you think Turkiye is capable of developing an indigenous engine in time to use it for TF-X?

Because it has to.

JonesNL · Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:59 am

TK105 wrote:
art wrote:
You may know more than me but why do you think Turkiye is capable of developing an indigenous engine in time to use it for TF-X?

Because it has to.

To be honest I am not sure it has to. From what I understood Turkey has less restriction on what it can buy since the latest negotiations about the admission of Finland and Sweden...

LightningZ71 · Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:19 pm

It depends on how much they want to be dependent on US export restrictions. I suspect that they will still try to get an engine free of US restrictions at some point.

art · Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:58 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
It depends on how much they want to be dependent on US export restrictions. I suspect that they will still try to get an engine free of US restrictions at some point.

If Erdogan wants Turkiye to become a main supplier to other Muslim countries, keeping US content out of TF-X should be a goal to allow shipment to countries of which US disapproves. Indeed, the invitation to companies to help Turkiye to develop an engine of the class needed for TF-X stipulates that no export controls should be imposed on Turkiye - see post up page.

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