ThePointblank
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Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:24 am

The Canadian government might be forced to buy new executive jets to replace two existing aircraft because starting next year, both the US FAA and the Europe will be mandating ADS-B transmitters to operate legally in most airspace:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/air-tra ... -1.4668608

OTTAWA -- The federal government could be forced to buy new executive jets to transport the prime minister and other VIPs because of changes to air-traffic control rules in the U.S. and Europe.

Two of the four Challenger jets currently used by the Canadian Forces for executive transport lack the equipment needed to comply with the new ADS-B system, which replaces radar-based air-traffic control with the transmission of GPS-based data.

That will curtail the aircraft's ability to fly in the U.S. and Europe beginning next year.


The current Canadian Forces executive jet fleet consists of four Bombardier Challenger jets, of which two were purchased in the 1980's and are model 601's, and two more were purchased in the 1990's and are model 604's. Upgrading the older model 601's given the age of the jets is not cost effective per the DND.

Per the reporting, the DND is looking at options to consolidate the fleet, most likely by purchasing used Challenger 604's on the open market to replace the older model 601's. Another option being reported is purchasing Bombardier Global Express jets, which are partially made in Canada as the dedicated fleet.

Either way, the RCAF is indicating that already, the existing four aircraft are already hard pressed to meet existing needs for VIP travel outside the country, and to meet the secondary missions of medivac, deploying advance teams with the Disaster Assistance Relief Team (DART) and, on occasion, covertly transporting Canadian special forces personnel.

Also being reported is that the existing fleet of CC-150 Polaris transports are going to have their lives extended past 2026 as well with a costly $249 million dollar life extension...
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:51 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
Also being reported is that the existing fleet of CC-150 Polaris transports are going to have their lives extended past 2026 as well with a costly $249 million dollar life extension...

:idea: Hmmn...why not use the funds to buy a couple of the rumored ACJ221XLRs to replace the CC-150s instead :?: The P&W GTF's bugs will have been sorted out by that time and both would help local industry. :scratchchin: The CF may need a pair with more capacity than the Globals could provide. :airplane:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:41 pm

Devilfish wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Also being reported is that the existing fleet of CC-150 Polaris transports are going to have their lives extended past 2026 as well with a costly $249 million dollar life extension...

:idea: Hmmn...why not use the funds to buy a couple of the rumored ACJ221XLRs to replace the CC-150s instead :?: The P&W GTF's bugs will have been sorted out by that time and both would help local industry. :scratchchin: The CF may need a pair with more capacity than the Globals could provide. :airplane:

Well, only one of the CC-150's are in a passenger VIP configuration. Two are configured as combi aircraft for passenger and freight, and the remaining two are configured as aerial tankers.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:16 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Well, only one of the CC-150's are in a passenger VIP configuration. Two are configured as combi aircraft for passenger and freight, and the remaining two are configured as aerial tankers.

All good then...they need only spend for one ACJ221XLR and use the remainder of the funds to upgrade the rest of the CC-150s. Provided they don't splurge all of it on whiz-bang gizmos for the new frame. :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign:

I think the A221 will look great in the current livery...or would the RCAF now favor a toned down, anonymous bizjet scheme? :scratchchin:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:08 am

Devilfish wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Well, only one of the CC-150's are in a passenger VIP configuration. Two are configured as combi aircraft for passenger and freight, and the remaining two are configured as aerial tankers.

All good then...they need only spend for one ACJ221XLR and use the remainder of the funds to upgrade the rest of the CC-150s. Provided they don't splurge all of it on whiz-bang gizmos for the new frame. :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign:

I think the A221 will look great in the current livery...or would the RCAF now favor a toned down, anonymous bizjet scheme? :scratchchin:

The VIP configured bird is mostly meant for the PM or the Governor General or the Queen and entourage, plus accompanying media. My understanding is that they do regularly fill the back of the jet with everyone, so a Airbus A220 wouldn't even cut it in terms of capacity.

Even now, the existing CC-150 doesn't have all of the gear that's required; there's no reliable and secure communications onboard, and for the people in the back, there isn't even power available for the entourage and press; they are running extension cords and power bars across the floor for the people in the back. It wasn't that long ago that the seats in the back still had ashtrays; they were finally yanked during a major overhaul of the sole VIP bird.

Also, range would be a big issue; the VIP bird is configured for long range VIP missions, and frequently flies to the edge of the aircraft's range. Most long distance flights require multiple stops enroute right now in order to get to most destinations.

The general consensus is that the aircraft will have to be another widebody to meet the space and range requirements; they've looked at a variety of options as a replacement.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:01 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
The general consensus is that the aircraft will have to be another widebody to meet the space and range requirements; they've looked at a variety of options as a replacement.

Aah.....so, considering nationalist sensibilities might be at play, two models are tenable.....the A359 and A338. If cost is an issue, the latter adequately satisfies the range and capacity requirements, albeit with a sole-source engine that still hasn't rid itself of hiccups..... :airplane: .....

Image
https://airbus-h.assetsadobe2.com/is/im ... 1&qlt=85,0


Wouldn't it be flabbergasting if the first VIP A338 wore the maple leaf :?: Will have to wait a little while yet for the combo's certification...although the CF may not want to be in that too "exclusive" club. :wink2:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:31 pm

There going to be some used VC25s on the market pretty soon. ;)
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ThePointblank
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:10 am

Devilfish wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
The general consensus is that the aircraft will have to be another widebody to meet the space and range requirements; they've looked at a variety of options as a replacement.

Aah.....so, considering nationalist sensibilities might be at play, two models are tenable.....the A359 and A338. If cost is an issue, the latter adequately satisfies the range and capacity requirements, albeit with a sole-source engine that still hasn't rid itself of hiccups..... :airplane: .....

Image
https://airbus-h.assetsadobe2.com/is/im ... 1&qlt=85,0


Wouldn't it be flabbergasting if the first VIP A338 wore the maple leaf :?: Will have to wait a little while yet for the combo's certification...although the CF may not want to be in that too "exclusive" club. :wink2:

It's far more likely they'll buy used again; the current CC-150's were also bought used; they previously flew with Canadian Airlines, and Wardair. Probably they will just buy a number of used Airbus A330-200's, and convert a pair of them as tankers.
 
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:10 am

TWA772LR wrote:
There going to be some used VC25s on the market pretty soon. ;)


Don't bet on that.

I'll bet there is already a waiting list for those birds.
First two names are likely going to get them.
(when/if they are ever retired)


StudeDave 8-)
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mxaxai
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:55 am

ThePointblank wrote:
It's far more likely they'll buy used again; the current CC-150's were also bought used; they previously flew with Canadian Airlines, and Wardair. Probably they will just buy a number of used Airbus A330-200's, and convert a pair of them as tankers.

That would be the first tanker conversion of the A330, correct? All others are new-built MRTTs. Certifying the modification, and then performing the modification, might be more expensive than just buying 2 new MRTTs.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:32 am

mxaxai wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
It's far more likely they'll buy used again; the current CC-150's were also bought used; they previously flew with Canadian Airlines, and Wardair. Probably they will just buy a number of used Airbus A330-200's, and convert a pair of them as tankers.

That would be the first tanker conversion of the A330, correct? All others are new-built MRTTs. Certifying the modification, and then performing the modification, might be more expensive than just buying 2 new MRTTs.

The RAAF has a pair of A330 MRTT's that were purchased used from Qantas and converted.

AFAIK, all A330 MRTT's start off as a green A330 airframe, which is flown out to Airbus Military in Spain for conversion; the Aussie aircraft were apparently converted in Australia.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:46 am

ThePointblank wrote:
It's far more likely they'll buy used again; the current CC-150's were also bought used; they previously flew with Canadian Airlines, and Wardair. Probably they will just buy a number of used Airbus A330-200's, and convert a pair of them as tankers.

I get that the government will want to stay on the good side of the taxpayers...while the RCAF would prefer a mature platform for the mission and could just add some spare engines for the fleet in anticipation of the powerplant going out of production. However, it may be counterproductive in the long run for the VIP plane, so why not go for the last NTU A332 off the line at least? It's conceivable the flamboyant reelected PM would pull a Merkel and order a hat-trick of A359s...or Global 7500s. :cheerful:


studedave wrote:
I'll bet there is already a waiting list for those birds.

If they're quick they might still catch one or both of these at MZJ in time..... :wave: .....

Last edited by Devilfish on Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ThePointblank
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:58 am

Devilfish wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
It's far more likely they'll buy used again; the current CC-150's were also bought used; they previously flew with Canadian Airlines, and Wardair. Probably they will just buy a number of used Airbus A330-200's, and convert a pair of them as tankers.

I get that the government will want to stay on the good side of the taxpayers...while the RCAF would want a mature platform for the mission and could just add some spare engines for the fleet in anticipation of the powerplant going out of production. However, it may be counterproductive in the long run for the VIP plane, so why not go for the last NTU A332 off the line at least? It's conceivable the flamboyant reelected PM would pull a Merkel and order a hat-trick of A359s. :cheerful:

Eh, the government is so cheap and unwilling to spend on things for itself, it's actually comical.

It's actually fairly symptomatic of the Canadian problem that we refuse to treat our head of government as a position worthy of respect. 24 Sussex Drive, the Official Residence of the Prime Minister is drafty, filled with asbestos and mould, has unsafe wiring that dates back to the 1950's, to the point where the current PM doesn't even live there anymore because we refuse to maintain it properly or replace it? Damned if we spend a single penny on fixing that.

Old aircraft that can't legally fly in most airspace within a few months? Damned if we spend money fixing that.

Because of the bad optics of the government buying itself a new fleet of VIP aircraft to the detriment of other military procurement debacles, I actually suspect they might delay making a decision, again, unless something forces the government's hand. The last time the government purchased VIP jets, it was a debacle, with the government being slammed for wasting taxpayer's money for what was legitimately a required purchase (the two new Challenger jets actually replaced older ones that needed replacement).
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:30 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
Because of the bad optics of the government buying itself a new fleet of VIP aircraft to the detriment of other military procurement debacles, I actually suspect they might delay making a decision, again, unless something forces the government's hand. The last time the government purchased VIP jets, it was a debacle, with the government being slammed for wasting taxpayer's money for what was legitimately a required purchase (the two new Challenger jets actually replaced older ones that needed replacement).

Maybe if they get stranded at someplace remote :?: A pity...I imagine a Global 7500/A332 combo would be hard to beat in operational flexibility...and will look quite spiffy in a maple leaf livery! :cloudnine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rEVxBtYXkY
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:49 pm

Hard to go wrong with the G7500–awesome performance! M.88 for 13 hours, operate out of short runways- 5,000 miles off 4,500’ runway and space galore!
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:14 am

Devilfish wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Because of the bad optics of the government buying itself a new fleet of VIP aircraft to the detriment of other military procurement debacles, I actually suspect they might delay making a decision, again, unless something forces the government's hand. The last time the government purchased VIP jets, it was a debacle, with the government being slammed for wasting taxpayer's money for what was legitimately a required purchase (the two new Challenger jets actually replaced older ones that needed replacement).

Maybe if they get stranded at someplace remote :?: A pity...I imagine a Global 7500/A332 combo would be hard to beat in operational flexibility...and will look quite spiffy in a maple leaf livery! :cloudnine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rEVxBtYXkY

I believe that's why the Global's were being looked at seriously as an option, beyond sourcing additional newer Challengers used.

In any case, I've heard that the existing fleet of Challengers is used fairly heavily, and going down to two aircraft that can fly without waivers is going to cause significant problems. There simply won't be enough aircraft for operations and for sudden calls where time is of the essence and there may not be regular, reliable commercial options.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:44 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
In any case, I've heard that the existing fleet of Challengers is used fairly heavily, and going down to two aircraft that can fly without waivers is going to cause significant problems. There simply won't be enough aircraft for operations and for sudden calls where time is of the essence and there may not be regular, reliable commercial options.

Very well then...time to cajole, arm twist, or otherwise threaten esteemed MPs with a no-confidence vote (not that it worked in the past) to allocate funding for at least three more of this... :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: ...


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https://newsassets.cirium.com/assets/ge ... emid=79437


Wouldn't do slumming it in a non-compliant used plane...when one has the wherewithal to travel in a brand-new one! :bigthumbsup:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:12 am

TWA772LR wrote:
There going to be some used VC25s on the market pretty soon. ;)


No, the USAF is keeping the VC-25As and they will be back-ups for the VC-25Bs.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:53 pm

This may just be the nudge they're waiting for..... :smile:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1435675


The comments on the tweet could very well be those of A.nutters at large..... :chat:
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Cruiser
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Re: Canada Might Need New Executive Jets

Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:40 pm

Maybe they will pick up the old WS 767's when they are done with them. :D
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