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ssteve
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Re: Possible New AF1 Colours - Model in Oval Office

Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:37 pm

kc135topboom wrote:
I like the new livery, it is bold and refreshing.


It's a lot like both Usair and BA liveries circa 1995. Kinda a mashup. Hearkens back to the halcyon days of the Trump Shuttle, even.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Possible New AF1 Colours - Model in Oval Office

Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:49 pm

Yeah, I am not sure how it is bold in any way. It is fairly staid in my opinion. Refreshing? Sure depending on your view of any change that is implemented. This seems very retrograde, a step back to me. Fairly "ho hum".

Honestly if there is any change lets make it actually "bold and refreshing". The Jackie livery certainly was when it was introduced.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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zanl188
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Re: Possible New AF1 Colours - Model in Oval Office

Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:29 pm

Trump livery reminds me of a scheme a leasing company might use. Neutral enough that anyone’s branding can be applied with a few stickers.
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rturner
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VC-25 Pre-Prod.

Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:23 am

Do we have any images anywhere of VC-25 Pre VC-25?

Also, were they built at PAE or were the parts taken to MHV/EDW/SAT and assembled there?

This would be a interesting sight to see if they are actually out there.
When we were told it's impossible, we knew that's the right way to be done.

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Slug71
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Re: VC-25 Pre-Prod.

Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:26 am

The 2 ex-Transaero whitetails flew out of PAE.
Assuming you are talking about the 747-8i VC-25Bs?

Or do you mean the current VC-25As?
 
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rturner
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Re: VC-25 Pre-Prod.

Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:43 am

Sorry, The current VC-25's. 82-8000 and 92-9000. Should have cleared that up, sorry.
When we were told it's impossible, we knew that's the right way to be done.

~Joeseph Sutter
 
zanl188
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Re: VC-25 Pre-Prod.

Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:08 am

Green airframes were built at Everett and then flown to Wichita for modification. No paint or livery until modifications were complete.
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mmo
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Re: VC-25 Pre-Prod.

Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:21 pm

The current VC-25s were flown ti E-Systems in Greenville TX for EMP hardening, and installation of the Com center in the upper deck along with some other equipment. Not sure where it was flown then but IIRC, it was back to PAE for install of the interior. I could be wrong about that though.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: VC-25 Pre-Prod.

Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:43 pm

As pretty much already explained such pictures are virtually impossible. They might not necessarily have been built on the line to VC-25 spec but they were certainly earmarked as VC-25s and the only flights/“public” appearances pre-VC-25 config would’ve been the flight immediately from the line to the modification center to final delivery spec, and I doubt anybody thought to photograph a pair of “greentails” in flight if there was anyway to even know when those flights were.

It’s like asking if there’s any pics of the first prototype before it was done up in Boeing house colors. It’s either aluminum and chromite finish or full paint, nothing in between, there was never a whitetail stage.
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kanban
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Re: VC-25 Pre-Prod.

Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:21 pm

there were pictures in the old Boeing News while the planes were still at Paine Field
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: VC-25 Pre-Prod.

Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:12 pm

Back in the mid 1980s I was delivering a KC-135A to what was then Boeing-Wichita for depot level scheduled maintenance. There were the two VC-25As on the ramp awaiting something. They were still green and already had the air refueling receptacles installed. We were parked between them on the ramp. The Secret Service and McConnell AFB Security Police were guarding them, so we could not go aboard to see what was installed inside.

rturner said:
"Sorry, The current VC-25's. 82-8000 and 92-9000. Should have cleared that up, sorry."

Actually both VC-25As were funded in FY-82. The tail numbers assigned to them were 82-8000 and 82-9000. But actual build for both airplanes was in 1984 because they had to wait for long lead items. The 92-9000 tail number has always been a myth.
 
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Revelation
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Re: VC-25 Pre-Prod.

Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:19 pm

mmo wrote:
The current VC-25s were flown ti E-Systems in Greenville TX for EMP hardening, and installation of the Com center in the upper deck along with some other equipment. Not sure where it was flown then but IIRC, it was back to PAE for install of the interior. I could be wrong about that though.

Interestingly enough, FG tells us they are now in San Antonio and are getting mods that allow for the lower deck stairs, amongst other things:

“The first phase of aircraft modification involves cutting out large skin and structure areas in both the forward and aft lower lobes of the aircraft and then installing two newly manufactured superpanels,” says the service. “The superpanels contain structural upgrades and cutouts for the VC-25B lower lobe doors, including internal airstairs for mission requirements.”

And:

“Boeing prepared the two aircraft for modification start by removing the commercial interiors, engines, auxiliary power units, and numerous secondary system components,” says the service. “Additionally, Boeing placed a sophisticated jacking and crib mechanism under each aircraft to reduce structural stress for the initial modification phases.”

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 97.article

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747classic
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Re: VC-25 Pre-Prod.

Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:03 pm

@Revelation : This thread is about the VC-25A, not about the VC-25B !!
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
firemansparky
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Boeing awarded support contract VC25B

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:58 pm

The Air Force awarded Boeing an $84 million contract for manuals for the VC-25B. Modified manuals at that. That's the cost, more or less, of a new F-35A Lightning II.

Link: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... 84-million

Another example of acquisition gone wild?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: $84 Million?

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:29 am

I’m not surprised, I bet it won’t be a huge profit deal. Basic aircraft is familiar, but even system is modified, changed or improved. The communications and security systems are vastly different than any civil plane. The maintenance library must fill a room. It’s sole source and it’s on-off plane.
 
Buckeyetech
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Re: New Air Force One

Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:56 pm

Work continues on VC-25B during pandemic.

https://www.airforcemag.com/new-air-for ... -pandemic/
B-52H, C-141C, C-5A, C-17A
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2167
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Re: Boeing awarded support contract VC25B

Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:01 am

Yes, it is things like the Beast Lift, the gigantic refrigerator / freezer, the escape pod, a whole number of defense systems :, chaff, flares, air-air missiles, lasers, etc. The best command / communications control system able to operate in a national defense emergency, phones, faxes, data, coms, kitchen equipment, armory, etc. I am sure it includes the maintenance manuals, testing setups, operation, spares, and minimum parts inventory etc all on computerized classified systems.

Remember a few years back the current AF1 had a problem with its freezers - it was an incredible amount of money to do. The job go cancelled and they are limping on until these VC-25B's get into service.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing awarded support contract VC25B

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:27 pm

And as the article noted, anything dealing with the military is expensive - the P-8 manuals were $34 million and that platform is based on the 737. I expect the KC-46A manuals (that platform based on the 767) were well into the eight figures, as well.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Boeing awarded support contract VC25B

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:48 pm

AvWeek, years ago, posted a hilarious send-up on why the government paid $5000 for a hammer you could buy at a hardware store for $10. When you add up the procurement laws, the auditing, proof of EEO rules, minimum purchasing numbers, contract compliance; it was easy to understand.
 
BravoOne
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Re: New Air Force One

Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:33 pm

Buckeyetech wrote:
Work continues on VC-25B during pandemic.

https://www.airforcemag.com/new-air-for ... -pandemic/



Boeing has a full scale mockup of the new AF 1 fuselage and interior in a building not far from SEATAC. Obviously its off limits to all but those involved in the project.
 
strfyr51
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Re: New Air Force One

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:51 am

flyingturtle wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Tugg


That's very interesting!

But given that several other governments use 747s too (Bahrain, China, India, Japan, Saudi Arabia, South Korea, Turkey, Dubai, Yemen), the US should step up the game and buy a used 380. If buying a foreign-built aircraft is not compatible with chauvinist doctrine, the U.S. Navy should take over presidential flights with a newly built USS Akron. :yes:

they wouldn't use an A380 because the engineering changes they'd have to make would actually require Airbus Engineering to approve as the airplane even though flown by the military still requires a civilian type certificate. there's not much of a way that Airbus could make it with the strict security attached to AF-1 being a foreign company.
Sounds Harsh? But tht might well be why Airbus dropped out of the RFP in the first place.
 
strfyr51
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Re: New Air Force One

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:20 am

Spacepope wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
Moose135 wrote:

Image


A tanker refuelling an 747? this is a great picture. I wondered if there was a 747 refuelling a 747...

Here's a shot of a proposed USAF KC-25 refuelling an Iranian Air Force KC-25: https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-w ... 1581314071

Supposedly Jimmy Carter is the only sitting president to be on board during AAR, while riding in one of the E-4s.

President Carter did a Lot of military flying while President. Whike I was a Navy P3 flight engineer, we were going out to work a New Soviet Nuke Boat off the coast of California (in international waters) . During Preflight a limo showed up and a bunch of senior Naade takeoffy officers came on board. they set up the Galley with coffee and food though we already had box lunches boarded. I finished my preflight did the weight an balance and got ready to start engines. A Navy Captain actually brought the ladder up and closed the door and told me to stay in the cockpit ready to start engines. I got the signal to start engines and we did. during taxi out s person entered the cockpit and sat on the Circuit breaker shelf behind the Co-pilot. we made takeoff and while climbing out we were setting flight conditions for transit. It was our custom t get the pilots a cup of Joe. but the coffee was already there so I didn't need to get up we were only going to be out 7.5 hours and most of it at low level. (below 5,000 FT AGL) when I looked up? The President was sitting behind me and Introduced himself. I almost swallowed a mouthful of hot coffee! President Crter got up and went back to the Tactical station where the CO let him sit as he used to work off of a paper plot on a pull down table in the aisle. The President seems to have done his homework because he was thoroughly familiar with the plot and technique we were going to use to "work" this Russian Boat. President Carter and CDR Smith beat this boat up for the 6 hours we were on station. And whatever he learned? A vice Admiral went out a few days later with the XO's crew. then the Deputy CNO went out even Later with VP-50. What they were looking for? I have no Idea.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: New Air Force One

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:43 am

strfyr51 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:

A tanker refuelling an 747? this is a great picture. I wondered if there was a 747 refuelling a 747...

Here's a shot of a proposed USAF KC-25 refuelling an Iranian Air Force KC-25: https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-w ... 1581314071

Supposedly Jimmy Carter is the only sitting president to be on board during AAR, while riding in one of the E-4s.

President Carter did a Lot of military flying while President. Whike I was a Navy P3 flight engineer, we were going out to work a New Soviet Nuke Boat off the coast of California (in international waters) . During Preflight a limo showed up and a bunch of senior Naade takeoffy officers came on board. they set up the Galley with coffee and food though we already had box lunches boarded. I finished my preflight did the weight an balance and got ready to start engines. A Navy Captain actually brought the ladder up and closed the door and told me to stay in the cockpit ready to start engines. I got the signal to start engines and we did. during taxi out s person entered the cockpit and sat on the Circuit breaker shelf behind the Co-pilot. we made takeoff and while climbing out we were setting flight conditions for transit. It was our custom t get the pilots a cup of Joe. but the coffee was already there so I didn't need to get up we were only going to be out 7.5 hours and most of it at low level. (below 5,000 FT AGL) when I looked up? The President was sitting behind me and Introduced himself. I almost swallowed a mouthful of hot coffee! President Crter got up and went back to the Tactical station where the CO let him sit as he used to work off of a paper plot on a pull down table in the aisle. The President seems to have done his homework because he was thoroughly familiar with the plot and technique we were going to use to "work" this Russian Boat. President Carter and CDR Smith beat this boat up for the 6 hours we were on station. And whatever he learned? A vice Admiral went out a few days later with the XO's crew. then the Deputy CNO went out even Later with VP-50. What they were looking for? I have no Idea.

From what I've read, Carter was generally a micromanager who generally got too involved in everything, so him getting directly hands on would not be too surprising.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: New Air Force One

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:49 am

trpmb6 wrote:
zanl188 wrote:
Tugger wrote:

In-flight refueling is for short range aircraft, to allow them to be ferried or get to and back from their intended assignments. AF1 has no actual need for it.

Tugg


I know plenty of C-5, KC-10, and B-52 crew that would disagree.


That has more to do with MTOW and useful payload.

What's interesting about not having the ability to aerial refuel on the VC-25B is that they won't be able to loiter for extended periods.


An ability which they have never used on the existing two aircraft, so why add something which was never used?
 
ClemRD
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Re: New Air Force One

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:46 pm

President Carter was a sub officer when he was in the Navy, so hunting Soviet boats in an Orion doesn't seem that surprising. Cool story.
 
744SPX
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Re: Boeing awarded support contract VC25B

Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:59 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
AvWeek, years ago, posted a hilarious send-up on why the government paid $5000 for a hammer you could buy at a hardware store for $10. When you add up the procurement laws, the auditing, proof of EEO rules, minimum purchasing numbers, contract compliance; it was easy to understand.


Reminds me of the Navy's 14,000 dollar toilet seats from around 1990 or so...
 
Ozair
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Boeing awarded support contract VC25B

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:33 pm

Boeing taking another hit on the military aspect aside from the KC-46. For all the bluster around trump and the VC-25s at least this is a fixed price contract and things hopefully won't get too far out of control.

The new Air Force One just racked up its first cost overrun

Boeing will have to pay $168 million out of pocket to cover increased costs on the VC-25B Air Force One replacement program, the company said Wednesday.

Boeing attributed the overrun to “engineering inefficiencies” caused by the impact of COVID-19, but Chief Financial Officer Greg Smith said the program remains on schedule with a projected delivery of the first VC-25B in 2024.

...

Although the total price of the program is estimated to hit $5.3 billion once ancillary costs such as new hangars and revised technical manuals are included, the fixed-price ceiling on the $3.9 billion deal ensures that Boeing will have to pay for any cost growth incurred while building the two new Air Force Ones.

...

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/04 ... t-overrun/
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: New Air Force One

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:40 pm

Guess future POTUS will be getting a smaller ride. Bet that is a long way down the road though so maybe smaller will result in,

faster.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!

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