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Cruiser
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Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:50 am

Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
Cruiser
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:03 pm

Looks like CBC is now picking up the story...a week later!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/prime- ... -1.5381367
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:26 am

The actual investigation report (so far):

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/assets ... 5nov19.pdf

Ain't good news for the VIP fleet, considering there are issues with the Challenger fleet, which we've discussed here:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1434657
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:25 pm

Cruiser wrote:
Looks like CBC is now picking up the story...a week later!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/prime- ... -1.5381367

Ouch...
Image
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:00 am

N14AZ wrote:
Cruiser wrote:
Looks like CBC is now picking up the story...a week later!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/prime- ... -1.5381367

Ouch...
Image

Class B damage per the accident report, and aircraft out of service till August 2020. It doesn't sound good.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:46 am

ThePointblank wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Cruiser wrote:
Looks like CBC is now picking up the story...a week later!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/prime- ... -1.5381367

Ouch...

Class B damage per the accident report, and aircraft out of service till August 2020. It doesn't sound good.

This is something I don't understand. Quote from this report:

ThePointblank wrote:
The actual investigation report (so far):

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/assets ... 5nov19.pdf


Once the aircraft reached a position in front of 10 hangar, the tow crew stopped the aircraft, set the chocks and the parking brake. During the tow tractor change, while no tractor was attached, the aircraft started moving forward and over the chocks.

The aircraft went over the chocks?!?! With set parking brake? Something doesn't add up.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:30 am

N14AZ wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Ouch...

Class B damage per the accident report, and aircraft out of service till August 2020. It doesn't sound good.

This is something I don't understand. Quote from this report:

ThePointblank wrote:
The actual investigation report (so far):

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/assets ... 5nov19.pdf


Once the aircraft reached a position in front of 10 hangar, the tow crew stopped the aircraft, set the chocks and the parking brake. During the tow tractor change, while no tractor was attached, the aircraft started moving forward and over the chocks.

The aircraft went over the chocks?!?! With set parking brake? Something doesn't add up.

I have a feeling that the ground wasn't level where they stopped to park the aircraft, and the parking brake either wasn't strong enough, or failed.

I also expect that they probably only chocked the nose wheel, since all they were doing was exchanging the tow tractor for a different one; they probably would not have chocked the main landing gear unless it was really windy out.

However, in the midst of all of this, somehow the aircraft started rolling and jumped the chocks...
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:26 pm

And the problems just keep on coming for the CC-150 Polaris fleet:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politic ... e-problem/

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s bad luck with planes continues.

He was forced to use a backup aircraft Monday to ferry him to London for a NATO summit because the usual prime ministerial jet was damaged in a hangar accident last month.

But after he got to London, the Royal Canadian Air Force discovered a problem with one of the engines on the backup plane during a postflight inspection.

The RCAF says that plane, a CC-150 Polaris, is being repaired but is temporarily “unserviceable.”

So, the RCAF has commandeered another CC-150 Polaris – which was in Italy with Gov. Gen. Julie Payette, who has been on a European tour of her own – to take Trudeau, his entourage and accompanying media back to Ottawa.

Another plane will have to be found to bring Payette home in time to read Thursday’s speech from the throne to open the new session of Parliament.


So, first the VIP configured Polaris is damaged as a result of a accident, so they've commandeered the second jet so the PM can fly to London.

Then, upon arrival in London, the PM's jet is discovered to be unserviceable due to engine problems, so they've commandeered the third Polaris that was already in Europe supporting the Governor General's European tour to get the PM and everyone back to Ottawa from London.

And they'll need to find another plane to get the Governor General back to Ottawa before Thursday...
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:43 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
And they'll need to find another plane to get the Governor General back to Ottawa before Thursday...

Perhaps the GAF could lend them this..... :flamed: .....

Image
https://cdn.jetphotos.com/full/5/96114_1569764568.jpg


Or one of these from the AdlA..... :airplane: .....

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https://farm66.static.flickr.com/65535/ ... 7be088.jpg
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:35 am

The accident happened on 18 October.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:03 am

kc135topboom wrote:
The accident happened on 18 October.

Yeah, but the aircraft is going to be out of service till August 2020 due to the extent of the damage and the investigation. It's causing a lot of headaches for the air planners as it means that the two remaining jets are going to drawn upon much more heavily for the VIP transport role, as the two tanker-configured jets cannot be easily configured for VIP transportation, and the upcoming issues with the existing Challenger fleet are also going to create even more chaos.
 
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GE9X
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:41 am

Honestly at this stage it's a good opportunity to single source 2-3 A330s, a handful of A330 MRTTs, and call it a day. When Merkel's plane broke down, forcing her on a civilian flight, the Germans didn't waste time ordering A350s. There is precedent for single sourcing aircraft, the Harper minority government bought 4 C-17s in record time at the height of the war in Afghanistan.

Bonus: Trudeau could call POTUS and brag about his higher defense spending... Plus the RCAF would gain true flexibility. As it stands right now the Polaris can only refuel aircraft equipped with probes, so USN yes, but virtually no USAF fixed wing. So a new MRTT capability would do wonders for NATO interoperability, or even moreso for Canada's NORAD commitments.

It's honestly a no brainer but then again this is Canada, so they'll make it needlessly complicated and last 5 years at minimum.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:18 pm

Directorate of Flight Safety has published a final report on the accident, and they blame the contracted ground crew for not verifying the brakes were properly set, and not properly chocking the aircraft for the entire mess:

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/fli ... e/k35u6unt

On 18 October 2019 a CC150 was towed from the North ramp to 10 Hangar at 8 Wing Trenton. 10 Hangar is not routinely used by the CC150, and the D-14 tow tractor normally used is too large for the limited space available inside 10 Hangar. Before entering the hangar, the ground crew were required to stop and swap the tow tractor from the bigger D-14 to the smaller D-12.

Once the aircraft reached a position in front of 10 Hangar, the contracted maintenance tow crew stopped the aircraft, installed chocks, set the parking brake, and disconnected the tow tractor. During the tow tractor change, the aircraft started moving forward and jumped over the chocks. Attempts to stop the aircraft by the tow crew were unsuccessful. The right engine struck the D-12 tow tractor parked inside the hangar, before the nose contacted the hangar far wall structure, finally stopping the aircraft.

The aircraft sustained serious damage (“C” category). The force of impact resulted in one minor injury.

The investigation could not positively determine the cause for the parking brake not holding the aircraft in position. However, it was found that the chocks used to secure the aircraft were not authorized in the Technical Support Arrangement and not all wheels had chocks at the time of the accident. Brakeman training was found to be informal and lacking emergency procedures and reference to aircraft publications.

The investigation recommends the use of approved chocks on all wheels and improved training for towing operations.


Mercedes Stephenson over at Global News tweeted out that it will cost $11 million to fix the damage, and the aircraft will be out of service till January 2021:
https://twitter.com/MercedesGlobal/stat ... 7676783616

The DND is asking that L3Harris, the company the ground technicians worked for cover the cost of the repairs.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:20 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Mercedes Stephenson over at Global News tweeted out that it will cost $11 million to fix the damage, and the aircraft will be out of service till January 2021:

Hmmn...wouldn't that be enough downpayment for a green A221CJ? (conceptual design is of an A223)..... :scratchchin:

Image
https://www.businessjetinteriorsinterna ... 20-702.jpg


.....or at least a Global 7500 :?: .....


That should help Bombardier a little bit. :cheerful:

https://www.flightglobal.com/business-a ... 04.article
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
diverted
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:50 pm

Devilfish wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Mercedes Stephenson over at Global News tweeted out that it will cost $11 million to fix the damage, and the aircraft will be out of service till January 2021:

Hmmn...wouldn't that be enough downpayment for a green A221CJ? (conceptual design is of an A223)..... :scratchchin:

Image
https://www.businessjetinteriorsinterna ... 20-702.jpg


.....or at least a Global 7500 :?: .....


That should help Bombardier a little bit. :cheerful:

https://www.flightglobal.com/business-a ... 04.article


Mate, we already bought two Challengers off them earlier this month. And judging from the delivery schedule, wouldn't surprise me if they were two aircraft Bombardier lost the customers for, and got lucky that the government's been talking of buying two.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/feds-sign ... -1.4972460
 
jmt18325
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:00 am

The Polaris is used when a large passenger capacity is needed. It will have to be replaced by something equally large later this decade.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:54 pm

diverted wrote:
Mate, we already bought two Challengers off them earlier this month. And judging from the delivery schedule, wouldn't surprise me if they were two aircraft Bombardier lost the customers for, and got lucky that the government's been talking of buying two.

As things stand, BBD can use all the help it could get. It seems acquiring an NTU Global 7500 is a fair way of doing it than outright aid. Needless to say, the government should bargain as much as it can. :twocents:


jmt18325 wrote:
The Polaris is used when a large passenger capacity is needed. It will have to be replaced by something equally large later this decade.

It just occurred to me that the PM might feel 'slighted' that other officials would be flying on brand new jets while he and his entourage travel in a 'refurbished' aircraft. :flamed: A Global 7500 appears a reasonable compromise if an ACJ would be untenable. The aging, mx prone Polaris could be reassigned to troop transport duty or other military roles.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:45 pm

Devilfish wrote:
jmt18325 wrote:
The Polaris is used when a large passenger capacity is needed. It will have to be replaced by something equally large later this decade.

It just occurred to me that the PM might feel 'slighted' that other officials would be flying on brand new jets while he and his entourage travel in a 'refurbished' aircraft. :flamed: A Global 7500 appears a reasonable compromise if an ACJ would be untenable. The aging, mx prone Polaris could be reassigned to troop transport duty or other military roles.

The government needs the passenger capacity of the Polaris for the entire entourage of the PM, plus the accompanying press. In that sense, the Polaris is barely adequate for the task, being limited in both range and capacity.
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:48 pm

Maybe PM Trudeau can ask President Trump for a lift on AF-1?

He could also ask to borrow two C-32As or C-40Bs from the USAF.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:05 am

ThePointblank wrote:
The government needs the passenger capacity of the Polaris for the entire entourage of the PM, plus the accompanying press. In that sense, the Polaris is barely adequate for the task, being limited in both range and capacity.

That requirement for the media to be at the PM's side all the time perplexes...not that they need to be apprised of each and every detail on the agenda. Why couldn't they just charter separately and be at each itinerary ahead of time? Their role of informing the public (plus a bit of PR) can just as effectively be achieved in this age of cutting edge communication - without being scooped by others. Those lower on the government totem pole can fly with the press instead. :duck:

It's time to trim delegations so taxpayers' perception that official travel is being used as an excuse for junkets could be diminished. To that end, a ~50 pax capacity A223 state transport seems adequate. Perhaps the rumored MTOW increase (156,000 lbs) could see it attaining ample range by the time Polaris bids goodbye. Failing those, the VIP Squadron could wait for the A321XLR or if that's still not enough, both large OEMs have a whole range of widebodies to choose from. Just don't expect impressive results at the polls. :spin:


kc135topboom wrote:
Maybe PM Trudeau can ask President Trump for a lift on AF-1?

Better yet, the US can offer to sell one of the pair at a friendly price when its replacement EIS. It's supposed to be the most immaculately maintained aircraft out there, complete with NIB spares! :bigthumbsup:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:14 am

Devilfish wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
The government needs the passenger capacity of the Polaris for the entire entourage of the PM, plus the accompanying press. In that sense, the Polaris is barely adequate for the task, being limited in both range and capacity.

That requirement for the media to be at the PM's side all the time perplexes...not that they need to be apprised of each and every detail on the agenda. Why couldn't they just charter separately and be at each itinerary ahead of time? Their role of informing the public (plus a bit of PR) can just as effectively be achieved in this age of cutting edge communication - without being scooped by others. Those lower on the government totem pole can fly with the press instead. :duck:

It's time to trim delegations so taxpayers' perception that official travel is being used as an excuse for junkets could be diminished. To that end, a ~50 pax capacity A223 state transport seems adequate. Perhaps the rumored MTOW increase (156,000 lbs) could see it attaining ample range by the time Polaris bids goodbye. Failing those, the VIP Squadron could wait for the A321XLR or if that's still not enough, both large OEMs have a whole range of widebodies to choose from. Just don't expect impressive results at the polls. :spin:

The PM when travelling overseas regularly travels with a fairly large staff complement, which includes a number of cabinet and assistant cabinet ministers, members of the Prime Minister's Office, communications staff, personal assistants, advisors, diplomats, etc. They all need to travel with the PM in close proximity in order to coordinate and advise the PM when they are abroad.

Members of the media also typically fly with the PM in the rear; they usually pay to have journalists onboard so they can have direct access to the PM and his staff, and usually, they manage to fill the 150 seats in the back with everyone else.

The biggest issue now with the CC-150 Polaris is both capacity and range; the aircraft is very marginal in terms of range to reach most destinations overseas without multiple refuelling stops along the way, and it's starting to get a bit cramped in the back because the entourage over time keeps growing, with an increasing need for spaces to work in private for the higher level political staff.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Canadian Prime Ministers VIP Airplane Damaged

Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:16 am

ThePointblank wrote:
The biggest issue now with the CC-150 Polaris is both capacity and range; the aircraft is very marginal in terms of range to reach most destinations overseas without multiple refuelling stops along the way, and it's starting to get a bit cramped in the back because the entourage over time keeps growing, with an increasing need for spaces to work in private for the higher level political staff.

Well, after the embarrassment in the UN, dialing down on the requirements might be in order.....

https://apnews.com/433bce25098dd2be12e20f998aef8b36

A sampling of potential destinations indicate a shorter range is feasible...with only East Asia, ME, Oceania, Argentina/Chile in So. America and inner, southern and east Africa requiring a stop. For those, a sparsely outfitted A338 (if it stays in production) should be adequate. If really long range and capacity are indispensable, the A359 is your bird. :cheerful:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YOW-CDG/FC ... /TUN&DU=nm
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield

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