aumaverick
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Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:04 pm

It looks like the Kuznetsov is destined not to return to the sea. The aircraft carrier is battling a fire while at dock under repair.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/major-fire-breaks-out-unlucky-russian-aircraft-carrier-n1100541?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma&fbclid=IwAR3FTgb4rxwjVWCcC5YfYtKXUuoxihpb80yuhZ1fR9XLj31B3qW2CWcVSQ8

Previously, the carrier suffered major damage after the dry dock it was in sank.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1407383&p=21252859&hilit=kuznetsov#p21252859
I'm just here so I won't get fined. - Marshawn Lynch
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:08 pm

well a carrier fire after a drydock sinking after having to deploy with tugs alongside.

If it is electrical cable insulation burning it is a total PITA to get under control. Dense toxic smoke in confined spaces but the cables pass thru all the decks and bulkheads so the next compartment is soon engulfed also.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:32 am

Rumor has it the fire was extinguished. By flooding the affected spaces with seawater.
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Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:40 pm

Two casualties appear confirmed, with bodies found.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
aumaverick
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:38 pm

A fire burning in a critical space for 24 hours has to be catastrophic, especially if it required an act of flooding to extinguish! Is this the end of carrier aviation, what little there was, for the Russian Navy?
I'm just here so I won't get fined. - Marshawn Lynch
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:56 pm

aumaverick wrote:
A fire burning in a critical space for 24 hours has to be catastrophic, especially if it required an act of flooding to extinguish! Is this the end of carrier aviation, what little there was, for the Russian Navy?

Stolen goods, like this carrier, are rarely enjoying a happy life.
Flooding in itself, while not something one likes to do, is a legitimate firefighting tool. Again, it's not pleasant, but sometimes you are short on options.
The problem is that the decision to deploy flooding, apparently, was taken after a long protracted firefight, and as you've mentioned, long fires in engineering spaces are bad news.
Somebody hoped to avoid flooding, allowing the fire to rage, and then ordered flooding. Worst of both worlds, honestly.

End of carrier aviation? Possible, not guaranteed. Russian powers that be start to filter, into the public sphere (via pocket bloggers, other unofficial media -- you know, the usual Kremlin PsyOps we are used too) the idea that fixing Kuznetsov is more than a 1$ billion expense. It's not obvious that the decision is already taken. Maybe they take the temperature of the public opinion, and also energizing the debate in expert and ideologue circles, trying to figure out, if it's worth dragging on, or if it's time to cut their losses, or if it's indeed the time to double down?
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
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Slug71
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:21 am

That poor carrier has been through the ringer. By the sounds of it, the damage could be significant.

They should probably just scrap it at this point and buy buy carriers from China.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:32 pm

Slug71 wrote:
That poor carrier has been through the ringer. By the sounds of it, the damage could be significant.

They should probably just scrap it at this point and buy buy carriers from China.


It's part of political-economic-technical-image debate in Russia going on right now.
The loss of face, if they do what you say, cannot even be quantified, especially in domestic Russian discourse.
It's a classical damned if you do and damned if you don't
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strfyr51
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:25 am

The Kuznetsov has got to be long in the tooth as they were part of my tactical training when I was a P3 Flight engineer. and I got out of the Navy in 1977. At the time?
I believe the USSR had 2 operational carriers the Kuznetsov and the Sverdlov, At the time? Their Premier NucleI've seen and talkedr Sub was the Yankee or the November Class. with the Akula Class Diesel boats. I would think they must have learned so much more from then to now, as that was 42 years ago. Ive seem amd talked to guys from Aeroflot and Volga Dneper, Those guys are damn sharp so I can't imagine Russia Not being able to fix that ship. .
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:07 am

strfyr51 wrote:
The Kuznetsov has got to be long in the tooth as they were part of my tactical training when I was a P3 Flight engineer. and I got out of the Navy in 1977. At the time?
I believe the USSR had 2 operational carriers the Kuznetsov and the Sverdlov, At the time? Their Premier NucleI've seen and talkedr Sub was the Yankee or the November Class. with the Akula Class Diesel boats. I would think they must have learned so much more from then to now, as that was 42 years ago. Ive seem amd talked to guys from Aeroflot and Volga Dneper, Those guys are damn sharp so I can't imagine Russia Not being able to fix that ship. .


Kuznetsov was commissioned in 1990 and the Akula Class are SSN's the first commissioned in 1984, both active long after you retired in 1977.
 
cpd
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:32 am

That poor ship seems to have had no end of misfortune. A shame for those casualties. :(
 
angad84
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:49 am

strfyr51 wrote:
The Kuznetsov has got to be long in the tooth as they were part of my tactical training when I was a P3 Flight engineer. and I got out of the Navy in 1977. At the time?
I believe the USSR had 2 operational carriers the Kuznetsov and the Sverdlov, At the time? Their Premier NucleI've seen and talkedr Sub was the Yankee or the November Class. with the Akula Class Diesel boats. I would think they must have learned so much more from then to now, as that was 42 years ago. Ive seem amd talked to guys from Aeroflot and Volga Dneper, Those guys are damn sharp so I can't imagine Russia Not being able to fix that ship. .

Kuznetsov was the only proper carrier they ever had, but they did have a couple of small-deck Kiev-class ships too, limited to helicopters and Yak Forgers.
By the 1970s, they had LOADS of nuclear subs beyond the Yankee and November, and the Akula (whether you refer to the NATO Akula, which is the Russian Shchuka SSN, or the NATO Typhoon, which is the Russian Akula SSBN) is nonetheless a later class of nuke boats. Their principal diesel boats would have been Foxtrots.

Guys at SU/VI being competent doesn't solve Russia's problem of not having enough resources to throw at the Kuznetsov and carrier aviation in general. It is fundamentally an exercise in genital measuring and doesn't really fit their doctrine anyway -- but paradoxically, that is a big reason they might actually work toward bringing the ship back into service -- it works for posturing at home and abroad.
 
tu204
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:08 pm

I wouldn't say that the Ministry of Defense is short on funds. I however don't see the point of throwing money at this ship that would be better used to finally develop and build something new to replace it.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Pentaprism
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:12 pm

I hope they do write it off.

1. Russia's Military doctrine is based on Defence. They have a lot of Air Bases and can build as many more as they like. They have credible Air Defence Systems and of course Nuclear Deterrence. Difficult to see how the Kutznetsov enhances their Defence Capabilities.

2. Russia does have Geopolitical Interests in the Middle East, Venezuela, Cuba etc. The Kuznetsov went to Syria and launched some sorties. But the Aircraft can't get off the Deck with a full load, they were flying to an Airbase to load the Weapons, then entering the Battlefield then returning to the Ship. If they were up against an Opponent with a viable Air Force this type of Operation probably wouldn't be very effective.

3. A Carrier Group is supposed to project Strength. Kuznetsov really just projects weakness, nobody in World Military Circles rates it.

4, Money could be much better spent on other Navy assets (not to mention Civilian issues)
 
UnMAXed
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:23 pm

tu204 wrote:
I wouldn't say that the Ministry of Defense is short on funds. I however don't see the point of throwing money at this ship that would be better used to finally develop and build something new to replace it.

Actually it is short on funds cause they decided to replace only half of the 8 dreadful boilers who sprout all that black smoke to save money.
Never mind that they have left their Northern and Black sea fleets without a large enough dry dock for all their vessels.
 
ANZUS340
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:48 pm

Pentaprism wrote:
I hope they do write it off.

1. Russia's Military doctrine is based on Defence. They have a lot of Air Bases and can build as many more as they like. They have credible Air Defence Systems and of course Nuclear Deterrence. Difficult to see how the Kutznetsov enhances their Defence Capabilities.

2. Russia does have Geopolitical Interests in the Middle East, Venezuela, Cuba etc. The Kuznetsov went to Syria and launched some sorties. But the Aircraft can't get off the Deck with a full load, they were flying to an Airbase to load the Weapons, then entering the Battlefield then returning to the Ship. If they were up against an Opponent with a viable Air Force this type of Operation probably wouldn't be very effective.

3. A Carrier Group is supposed to project Strength. Kuznetsov really just projects weakness, nobody in World Military Circles rates it.

4, Money could be much better spent on other Navy assets (not to mention Civilian issues)


Could not agree more with this.

Outside of showing the flag Russia does not need a carrier. Although even in this role I would argue it is not very effective.
I would like to see Russia put the Kuznetsov and also the Peter The Great in a museum. Navy wise they would be better off with smaller, but a larger number of surface ships and a larger submarine force.
Russia is primarily a land power.

I agree Russia does not have broad interests far from its land borders. A leaner defensive navy would be of more use to Russia
As you say it is the Russian nuclear deterrent that is there primary insurance against large scale foreign aggression. You would probably disagree with me here, as most people do, but I would also say it is why the U.S does not need NATO.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:32 am

Please stick to discussing the topic or the thread will be locked.

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Kiwirob
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:10 pm

UnMAXed wrote:
tu204 wrote:
I wouldn't say that the Ministry of Defense is short on funds. I however don't see the point of throwing money at this ship that would be better used to finally develop and build something new to replace it.

Actually it is short on funds cause they decided to replace only half of the 8 dreadful boilers who sprout all that black smoke to save money.
Never mind that they have left their Northern and Black sea fleets without a large enough dry dock for all their vessels.


The northern drydock issue is being addressed, there’s a massive drydock under construction near Murmansk.
 
UnMAXed
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:27 pm

Of course it is being addressed!
I am certain that by February the 30th it will be up and running.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:41 pm

I agree with the sentiment that Russia doesn't need carriers.

Or at least it shouldn't be a priority. In today's theatre of operations, carriers are more a power projection / vanity project for Russia.

Russia has always leaned more on submarines than on carriers, even during the Cold War.

I think it would be wise for Russia to turn Kuznetsov into a museum ship, and focus on other weapon systems.

A mix of submarines, long range bombers and space weapons could replace a carrier. And yes, space weapons are banned, but that's only on paper. In reality there are already weapons in space from multiple nations.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Admiral Kuznetsov Suffers Major Fire

Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:12 pm

This carrier is a living corpse.

Were it a racehorse, somebody would have led it to the side, put a green tent around it, and done the right thing.
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