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tu204
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:36 pm

Aesma wrote:
Wildfires in Siberia are left alone as there is nobody living there, basically.


Not really. Plenty going on there. Other Be-200's, IL76's, Mi and Ka choppers.

Only 3 Russian Be-200's were sent over to Turkey, 2 from Ministry of Emergencies and this Naval one, just recently I think. There's also one Be-200 from Azerbaijan I think in Turkey.
 
holczakker
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:54 pm

Collision with the mountain at around 00:55.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4zk_aXkyB4
 
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Aesma
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:16 pm

OK so this was clearly during operations.
 
M564038
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:27 pm

You can see the powerline shorting at 33 seconds in this video. Surprised if this doesn’t explain it.
https://youtu.be/ozQwfljkKTU
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:35 pm

Be-200 of Russian Navy crashes in Turkey, with casualties
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/14/euro ... index.html

Russian forums say it was on a rental to Turkey, decrying the decision to send it there as financial shenanigans. In the meantime, Russia struggles to contain fires domestically.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:41 pm

RIP crew.

The videos show the aircraft flying into the mountain after dumping water, not on approach to Adana?
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:33 am

8 people seems like a LOT to have onboard during active drops.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:24 am

M564038 wrote:
You can see the powerline shorting at 33 seconds in this video. Surprised if this doesn’t explain it.
https://youtu.be/ozQwfljkKTU



I have tried to see that but I don't see it arc. What a terrible tragedy. Such brave men and women that do this work.
 
Flaps
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:41 am

Spacepope wrote:
8 people seems like a LOT to have onboard during active drops.


Training flight perhaps?
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:53 am

Flaps wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
8 people seems like a LOT to have onboard during active drops.


Training flight perhaps?

Five are normal Russian Navy aircrew. Three were Turkish citizens -- logically these must be involved in water bombing operations. Coordination of drops, water pickup, that sort of thing.
Who would be training who?
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:35 pm

SRQLOT wrote:
Surprised didn’t see this posted yet here or in military. A Russian firefighting amphibious airplane crashed in Turkey on approach to Adana. 8 lost 5 Russian and 3 Turkish. Surprised that Russia sent it there considering the masssive wild fires in Siberia. RIP to all.

I always loved the look of this airplane and wished it could have done downtown to downtown flights around the world if things were different.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/14/europe/r ... index.html


Years ago, I did a translation about this type of plane about the Be200 that was being flown in Portugal when they had some huge wildfires there. I remember really liking the look of this plane and thinking it was quite unique. With the high engines it could land on rough strips and the amphibious version could land on sea, lakes or land. It was a very Russian design in that respect, uniquely suited to the conditions in the more remote parts of Siberia.

But in Portugal, unfortunately, it wasn't so successful. Portugal doesn't have any lakes large enough for it to operate safely and it had some kind of accident there where it struck an obstacle, started leaking fuel and actually caused new forest fires instead of putting them out. Needles to say, Portugal didn't buy it.

So then this year, here in Turkey, I noticed it was being used and I saw a few videos of these planes collecting water in the sea next to yachts and beaches and scaring the life out of people. It did look pretty dangerous just because of the high speed of these planes. I don't know if in Siberia they have more lakes that they can use with planes this size or maybe because of the long distances and remoteness a jet aircraft is more desirable. But I think most countries are probably using slower planes for fighting forest fires for a reason.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:37 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:
Surprised didn’t see this posted yet here or in military. A Russian firefighting amphibious airplane crashed in Turkey on approach to Adana. 8 lost 5 Russian and 3 Turkish. Surprised that Russia sent it there considering the masssive wild fires in Siberia. RIP to all.

I always loved the look of this airplane and wished it could have done downtown to downtown flights around the world if things were different.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/14/europe/r ... index.html


Years ago, I did a translation about this type of plane about the Be200 that was being flown in Portugal when they had some huge wildfires there. I remember really liking the look of this plane and thinking it was quite unique. With the high engines it could land on rough strips and the amphibious version could land on sea, lakes or land. It was a very Russian design in that respect, uniquely suited to the conditions in the more remote parts of Siberia.

But in Portugal, unfortunately, it wasn't so successful. Portugal doesn't have any lakes large enough for it to operate safely and it had some kind of accident there where it struck an obstacle, started leaking fuel and actually caused new forest fires instead of putting them out. Needles to say, Portugal didn't buy it.

So then this year, here in Turkey, I noticed it was being used and I saw a few videos of these planes collecting water in the sea next to yachts and beaches and flying low scaring the life out of people. It did look pretty dangerous just because of the high speed of these planes. I don't know if in Siberia they have more lakes that they can use with planes this size or maybe because of the long distances and remoteness a jet aircraft is more desirable. But I think most countries are probably using slower planes for fighting forest fires for a reason.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:22 pm

If you listen to some on this site (and I don't pretend to know better) aerial firefighting is a waste of time.
 
tu204
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:48 am

You need wide and open bodies of water to be effective with the Be-200. One of the reasons there are only 3 of them flying in Yakutia right now.

There are more IL76's working there because of a lack of open bodies of water.
 
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CrimsonNL
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Ilyushin 112 prototype crash

Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:51 am

The prototype of the Ilyushin 112 transport aircraft has crashed today in Russia. A horrifying video (below) shows the right engine (Klimov TV7-117) on fire..

https://twitter.com/Defence_blog/status ... 7956464644

https://defence-blog.com/russian-air-fo ... ar-moskov/

 
tu204
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Re: Ilyushin 112 prototype crash

Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:11 am

Damn.
They stalled on the right wing. Either that or the controls got damaged from the fire.
 
LTEN11
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Re: Ilyushin 112 prototype crash

Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:24 am

It's hard to tell, but was it on fire when it first came into view, or did the fire erupt during the video ? Either way, things escalated very quickly when the flames became visible from the number 2 engine.
 
DH106
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Re: Ilyushin 112 prototype crash

Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:26 am

You can see the plane yawing to the left as the pilot tries to keep hold of it, but then the right wing drops, either by stalling or dropping below Vmc.
 
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c933103
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Re: Ilyushin 112 prototype crash

Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:15 pm

Could it been a replacement to a number of similar sized props outside Russia?
 
744SPX
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Re: Ilyushin 112 prototype crash

Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:30 pm

There are no two ways about it. Between not being able to field proper engines for the SU-57, massive delays to the NK-32-02, the uncompetitive PD-14 and now this, Russian gas turbine technology is in a deplorable state.
 
estorilm
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Re: Ilyushin 112 prototype crash

Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:44 pm

tu204 wrote:
Damn.
They stalled on the right wing. Either that or the controls got damaged from the fire.

Speed seemed consistent, I'd say either the engine failed completely and didn't feather (causing the wing stall/drag) or controls to the starboard ailerons failed and they couldn't maintain adequate control with the asymmetrical thrust. My bet is kinda on a combination of everything, as that final roll rate was pretty extreme; wing stall, non-feathered prop, lack of roll authority / possible aileron failure.

RIP, had to be terrifying.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:33 pm

Il-112 prototype.
https://russianplanes.net/reginfo/89339
Crashed not far from Moscow, with casualties.
Eyewitness video:
https://t.me/breakingmash/27251
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:34 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Il-112 prototype.
https://russianplanes.net/reginfo/89339
Crashed not far from Moscow, with casualties.
Eyewitness video:
https://t.me/breakingmash/27251


Final moments of the flight, caught on camera:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDJ4Ukl5H3Y
 
Noray
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:41 pm

After the drop, why did they fly towards that high mountain ridge at all, instead of away from it? Bad flight planning? Navigation error? Communication error? Overconfidence? Or were they, after technical problems, hoping to crash land on the mountain slope like that Transall in Corsica in 1995?

And with the engines placed above and behind the wings to protect them from the water, do they lose power at high angles of attack? Could this have happened as the water was unloaded while the aircraft was climbing uphill?
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:38 pm

Aesma wrote:
If you listen to some on this site (and I don't pretend to know better) aerial firefighting is a waste of time.

Aerial firefighting is meant to slow down the rate of movement of a fire, so firefighters on the ground can build control lines to contain the fire. Once the fire is contained, they let it burn itself out.

A very short video that goes over the overview of how fighting wildfires works is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EodxubsO8EI
 
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casinterest
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:16 am

Phosphorus wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Il-112 prototype.
https://russianplanes.net/reginfo/89339
Crashed not far from Moscow, with casualties.
Eyewitness video:
https://t.me/breakingmash/27251


Final moments of the flight, caught on camera:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDJ4Ukl5H3Y


They lost an engine, I just wonder if they turned off the wrong one in the cockpit and lost lift.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:36 am

Terrible way to go. RIP bros.
 
Zeppi
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Re: Ilyushin 112 prototype crash

Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:05 am

Deary me, that thing lit up like a blowtorch!
How is that even possible? An engine fire shouldn't be a big deal nowadays, but then this is Russia...

RIP to the crew, what a terrible way to go. Looks like they stood no chance, struggled to keep it level soon after the fire starts an then just roll over :(
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:30 am

casinterest wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Il-112 prototype.
https://russianplanes.net/reginfo/89339
Crashed not far from Moscow, with casualties.
Eyewitness video:
https://t.me/breakingmash/27251


Final moments of the flight, caught on camera:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDJ4Ukl5H3Y


They lost an engine, I just wonder if they turned off the wrong one in the cockpit and lost lift.

With that fire raging so quickly and so intensely, I would guess loss of the engine lead to uncontained burst of debris that punctured the fuel tank -- and not only the tank, but possibly took out other important stuff. Control surfaces, hydraulics, that sort of thing. Unfeathered prop, raging fire, controls unresponsive, loss of lift from damaged wing and flaps/ailerons... There are too many things going on, that could doom them -- there was no real need for a pilot error of shutting down the wrong engine, to kill them.
 
estorilm
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Re: Ilyushin 112 prototype crash

Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:52 pm

Zeppi wrote:
Deary me, that thing lit up like a blowtorch!
How is that even possible? An engine fire shouldn't be a big deal nowadays, but then this is Russia...

RIP to the crew, what a terrible way to go. Looks like they stood no chance, struggled to keep it level soon after the fire starts an then just roll over :(

Just a prototype, so you're more likely to get fitment , interference, or pipe fitting problems with the plumbing. I suppose an engine failure could have also damaged fuel lines also - but any disconnect or damage to the primary fuel line after those high pressure pumps will create an absolute torrent of jet-a.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Ilyushin 112 prototype crash

Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:26 pm

That's a hard one to watch. Thoughts and condolences to the families and colleagues of the crew.

Generally, you've got less than 15 minutes to catastrophic failure or crew incapacitation from the first indication of an onboard fire. Sometimes more, sometimes less. But, if you're on-board, assume you have 15 to egressing the aircraft.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Ilyushin 112 prototype crash

Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:29 pm

estorilm wrote:
Zeppi wrote:
Deary me, that thing lit up like a blowtorch!
How is that even possible? An engine fire shouldn't be a big deal nowadays, but then this is Russia...

RIP to the crew, what a terrible way to go. Looks like they stood no chance, struggled to keep it level soon after the fire starts an then just roll over :(

Just a prototype, so you're more likely to get fitment , interference, or pipe fitting problems with the plumbing. I suppose an engine failure could have also damaged fuel lines also - but any disconnect or damage to the primary fuel line after those high pressure pumps will create an absolute torrent of jet-a.


The jury's still out, but engine trouble, for Il-112, is more than "fitment or pipe fitting problems with the plumbing". Indeed, Il-112 came out over two tons overweight, reportedly. As a result, a ruthless weight-reduction exercise was ordered, and I wouldn't be surprised if they took stuff away that they shouldn't have.
The engine itself is a Frankenstein. It is a derivative of an older design, but they needed way more power, also because the plane is overweight (see above). The decision was taken to power it up, to get more hp's. Original designers are Motor-Sich -- Ukrainians. In their infinite wisdom, Russia invaded Ukraine 7 years ago. Getting Motor-Sich to cooperate on the upgrade is thus beyond possible.
Local folks were summoned to the task. Apparently, the engines on that frame are also test articles. Possible consequences of that effort were filmed above.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:21 pm

A Mig-29 crashed in Russia, with casualty.
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/artic ... russia-ria
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:49 am

looks like we've failed to list loss of a Su-35:
https://www.fontanka.ru/2021/07/31/70054691/
A Su-35 went into the Sea of Okhotsk on July 31, without casualties.
 
T54A
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:26 pm

casinterest wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Il-112 prototype.
https://russianplanes.net/reginfo/89339
Crashed not far from Moscow, with casualties.
Eyewitness video:
https://t.me/breakingmash/27251


Final moments of the flight, caught on camera:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDJ4Ukl5H3Y


They lost an engine, I just wonder if they turned off the wrong one in the cockpit and lost lift.


Lift doesn’t come from engines, it comes from the wings.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:37 pm

T54A wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:

Final moments of the flight, caught on camera:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDJ4Ukl5H3Y


They lost an engine, I just wonder if they turned off the wrong one in the cockpit and lost lift.


Lift doesn’t come from engines, it comes from the wings.


Well yes, but you need thrust/Speed to have that lift. They lost the right engine , and while maybe they had more issues with the engine failure as alluded to in the previous post, there have been other incidents due to miscalculations in the cockpit on what occurs during recovery.

All armchair from my side, but if the plane wasn't recoverable, then that will be in the black box investigation.

I looking at the video more, it definitely looks like they lost control and lift on the right side. Did they try to turn, and couldn't come back due to control failures?
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:09 pm

casinterest wrote:
T54A wrote:
casinterest wrote:

They lost an engine, I just wonder if they turned off the wrong one in the cockpit and lost lift.


Lift doesn’t come from engines, it comes from the wings.


Well yes, but you need thrust/Speed to have that lift. They lost the right engine , and while maybe they had more issues with the engine failure as alluded to in the previous post, there have been other incidents due to miscalculations in the cockpit on what occurs during recovery.

All armchair from my side, but if the plane wasn't recoverable, then that will be in the black box investigation.

I looking at the video more, it definitely looks like they lost control and lift on the right side. Did they try to turn, and couldn't come back due to control failures?


Don't hold your breath for getting hands on any investigation data, much less black box. A prototype of a military plane crash... They could just as well classify the whole thing.
As they used to say in Soviet military (I wouldn't be surprised if current Russian mil mindset isn't any different): "those who need to know, will be/have already been informed, through appropriate channels".
 
tu204
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:32 pm

casinterest wrote:
T54A wrote:
casinterest wrote:

They lost an engine, I just wonder if they turned off the wrong one in the cockpit and lost lift.


Lift doesn’t come from engines, it comes from the wings.


Well yes, but you need thrust/Speed to have that lift. They lost the right engine , and while maybe they had more issues with the engine failure as alluded to in the previous post, there have been other incidents due to miscalculations in the cockpit on what occurs during recovery.

All armchair from my side, but if the plane wasn't recoverable, then that will be in the black box investigation.

I looking at the video more, it definitely looks like they lost control and lift on the right side. Did they try to turn, and couldn't come back due to control failures?


The right engine was clearly producing negative thrust. And they didn't feather the prop. Curious as to "why".

PIC was experienced. Test pilot, Hero of Russia.
 
T54A
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:40 pm

tu204 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
T54A wrote:

Lift doesn’t come from engines, it comes from the wings.


Well yes, but you need thrust/Speed to have that lift. They lost the right engine , and while maybe they had more issues with the engine failure as alluded to in the previous post, there have been other incidents due to miscalculations in the cockpit on what occurs during recovery.

All armchair from my side, but if the plane wasn't recoverable, then that will be in the black box investigation.

I looking at the video more, it definitely looks like they lost control and lift on the right side. Did they try to turn, and couldn't come back due to control failures?


The right engine was clearly producing negative thrust. And they didn't feather the prop. Curious as to "why".

PIC was experienced. Test pilot, Hero of Russia.


It is possible the fire effected oil pressure to the prop hub. This could have a negative effect on prop pitch, but I have no idea how this engine prop system works.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Be-200 crashes in Turkey

Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:00 pm

Noray wrote:
After the drop, why did they fly towards that high mountain ridge at all, instead of away from it? Bad flight planning? Navigation error? Communication error? Overconfidence? Or were they, after technical problems, hoping to crash land on the mountain slope like that Transall in Corsica in 1995?

And with the engines placed above and behind the wings to protect them from the water, do they lose power at high angles of attack? Could this have happened as the water was unloaded while the aircraft was climbing uphill?


Yeah I agree that trying to get over that ridge is strange, either there was a mechanical issue that forced them to go towards there, or the pilot thought he was still at the commands of a fighter jet.
 
Zeppi
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Re: Ilyushin 112 prototype crash

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:44 am

Phosphorus wrote:
estorilm wrote:
Zeppi wrote:
The jury's still out, but engine trouble, for Il-112, is more than "fitment or pipe fitting problems with the plumbing".


Not an engineer, but I'd say so too.
This must have been a catastrophic uncontained failure, ripping apart everything in and around the engine for enough fuel to be present to supply such a severe fire. Maybe it even ruptured the fuel tanks themselves. Otherwise it should not be possible to unfold like this, first sign of a fire and procedures should invoke imediate shutdown of the engine, cutting fuel supply and activating internal extinguishers, snuffing the fire quickly.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:15 pm

Not a crash, but a hull loss, regardless:
https://www.pravda.ru/news/accidents/1632926-mig29/
a MiG-29 has caught fire and burned fully, on the ground, in Astrakhan region, Russia. No casualties
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Military Crashes Discussion Thread - Part 2

Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:49 pm

Well... A Su-24 down in Perm region, Russia. No casualties.
https://59.ru/text/incidents/2021/08/27/70103429/
Video of the crash (and presumably two parachutes):
https://59.ru/text/incidents/2021/08/27/70103522/

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