ThePointblank
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Germany Dumps MQ-4C Triton drones for Bombardier Global 6000's

Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:06 am

This is in relation to the German PEGASUS program, short for “Persistent German Airborne Surveillance System."

https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-ne ... py-drones/

COLOGNE, Germany — The German government has canceled plans to buy Northrop Grumman-made Triton drones to the tune of $2.5 billion, opting instead for manned planes carrying eavesdropping sensors.

The decision to buy Bombardier Global 6000 aircraft comes after officials became convinced that the Global Hawk derivatives would be unable to meet the safety standards needed for flying through European airspace by 2025, a target date for Berlin’s NATO obligations.

A defense ministry spokeswoman told Defense News the Triton option had grown “significantly more expensive” compared with earlier planning assumptions.


The Germans intended on using the MQ-4C Triton drones to carry the planned sensor package, but the Germans soon became concerned that the Triton would not be certifiable for European airspace by 2025, which is a key date to get the system online in order to meet NATO commitments.

Their hopes became dashed as a related drone the Italians were purchasing had a number of restrictions slapped on it for flights over Europe. Instead, the Germans are turning towards a manned platform, and will purchase Bombardier Global 6000's for the role and fit them with the planned sensors.
 
texl1649
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Re: Germany Dumps MQ-4C Triton drones for Bombardier Global 6000's

Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:54 am

This makes sense. The (used?) triton they were getting was going to wind up being quite a mess to certify/make work for them. Hopefully those birds go to good use somewhere.
 
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GE9X
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Re: Germany Dumps MQ-4C Triton drones for Bombardier Global 6000's

Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:40 pm

These drones are so expensive and "experimental"-ish that it doesn't really make sense to buy them unless you're the U.S., which needs to have these sort of toys to gather the right R&D experience to keep its leading edge. If you're a client country with no major stakes in that particular high tech ecosystem, anything saved in operating costs (if that) is almost certainly canceled by the ridiculous acquisition costs. A half dozen business jets with the right sensors and some frankenstein sensor fusion will almost certainly come down to be less expensive AND more dependable for whatever mission they have.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Dumps MQ-4C Triton drones for Bombardier Global 6000's

Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:06 pm

GE9X wrote:
A half dozen business jets with the right sensors and some frankenstein sensor fusion will almost certainly come down to be less expensive AND more dependable for whatever mission they have.

The key difference is persistence. The Global Hawk will stay aloft for 32+ hours with a significantly longer range than a business jet noting a business jet will cruise to an operational area quicker. That persistence does come with a higher cost to operate but provides again a significantly greater capability. That is the reason nations acquire long range UAVs. The German case is very clear, they want to operate the capability but won't be able to get it to interface with airspace constraints, so are moving to an alternative. Were that airspace constraint not present, the Global Hawk would be in German service today.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Germany Dumps MQ-4C Triton drones for Bombardier Global 6000's

Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:45 am

What ever happened to the Euro Hawks they cancelled? Scrapped? Stored in a hangar somewhere?
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Dumps MQ-4C Triton drones for Bombardier Global 6000's

Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:44 am

VSMUT wrote:
What ever happened to the Euro Hawks they cancelled? Scrapped? Stored in a hangar somewhere?

Essentially parted out.

https://www.uasvision.com/2019/02/22/na ... -eurohawk/
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany Dumps MQ-4C Triton drones for Bombardier Global 6000's

Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:09 pm

So do US Global Hawks / Tritons simply not fly in european air space or do they request a special permission every time? This issue doesn't appear to be limited to Germany, with the Italian drones operating under severe restrictions.

I also don't quite get why NG hasn't been able to fix the problem in well over 10 years and doesn't expect to do so within 5 more years. It can't be that difficult to slap an ADS-B transmitter on the drones.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany Dumps MQ-4C Triton drones for Bombardier Global 6000's

Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:50 pm

They operate under serious restrictions, like having to file a flight plan 48h in advance and being and being mentioned in NOTAMs concerning the area in which they operate. Which is kind of useless for a signals intelligence plane in peace time conditions, when the Russians know 24 hours before the drone arrives, that it will arrive and where it will fly.
 
CX747
Posts: 6124
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: Germany Dumps MQ-4C Triton drones for Bombardier Global 6000's

Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:50 am

ThePointblank wrote:
This is in relation to the German PEGASUS program, short for “Persistent German Airborne Surveillance System."

https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-ne ... py-drones/

COLOGNE, Germany — The German government has canceled plans to buy Northrop Grumman-made Triton drones to the tune of $2.5 billion, opting instead for manned planes carrying eavesdropping sensors.

The decision to buy Bombardier Global 6000 aircraft comes after officials became convinced that the Global Hawk derivatives would be unable to meet the safety standards needed for flying through European airspace by 2025, a target date for Berlin’s NATO obligations.

A defense ministry spokeswoman told Defense News the Triton option had grown “significantly more expensive” compared with earlier planning assumptions.


The Germans intended on using the MQ-4C Triton drones to carry the planned sensor package, but the Germans soon became concerned that the Triton would not be certifiable for European airspace by 2025, which is a key date to get the system online in order to meet NATO commitments.

Their hopes became dashed as a related drone the Italians were purchasing had a number of restrictions slapped on it for flights over Europe. Instead, the Germans are turning towards a manned platform, and will purchase Bombardier Global 6000's for the role and fit them with the planned sensors.


Nice to see common sense win out and a workable solution found. The USAF has E-11s, the UK has Sentinels. At the end of the day, perfect is the enemy of good. This is a good solution. New tech, in a proven airframe. Rock on my friends.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
CX747
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Re: Germany Dumps MQ-4C Triton drones for Bombardier Global 6000's

Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:48 pm

Wonder if the Germans spoke with the Americans ahead of time? The latest budget release for the USAF has a large portion of the Global Hawk fleet being clipped. Certain frames would be replaced by additional E-11 purchases.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany Dumps MQ-4C Triton drones for Bombardier Global 6000's

Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:08 pm

CX747 wrote:
Wonder if the Germans spoke with the Americans ahead of time? The latest budget release for the USAF has a large portion of the Global Hawk fleet being clipped. Certain frames would be replaced by additional E-11 purchases.

The USAF isn't getting rid of Global Hawk though, just retiring the Blk 20 and 30 airframes which are significantly different enough than the current Blk 40, operating the AN/ZPY-2 radar, to make removing them from a sustainment perspective worthwhile.

It is also probably clearer to say that the BACN function performed by Blk 20 aircraft is being replaced by the E-11.
 
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MUC_Spotter
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Re: Germany Dumps MQ-4C Triton drones for Bombardier Global 6000's

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:40 am

VSMUT wrote:
What ever happened to the Euro Hawks they cancelled? Scrapped? Stored in a hangar somewhere?

Still stored in its hangar at Manching.

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