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kaitak
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Boeing offers India F-15X

Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:15 pm

Here's an interesting article about a Boeing plan to offer the F-15X to India (in addition to the F-18 variant already being offered) for India's new fighter program.

https://www.flightglobal.com/singapore- ... 94.article

What's interesting about this is that India is already a customer for Russia's S400 missile system, on which it has spent €5b. This was, of course, the missile system which caused the cancellation of Turkey's F-35 deal (and may cause issues in Egypt too, which has expressed an interest in buying it).

A few questions arise:
- OK, this is for the F-15/F-18, not F-35s. Do the Americans not have the same concerns for these as for the F-35, or is it because the Americans are particularly sensitive about the F-35's "signature", being a new type? (Would the Trump administration allow the F-35 to India?)
- Or, is it different standards for different countries? The Trump administration simply doesn't want US companies locked out of a deal, simply because a country (particularly one which already a large, and relatively recent, buyer of US hardware).
- Any deal is, of course, subject to US government approval, but if it were to go ahead, how might Turkey respond? Are all US fighters now banned to them, or just F-35s?
 
Ozair
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:29 pm

kaitak wrote:
Here's an interesting article about a Boeing plan to offer the F-15X to India (in addition to the F-18 variant already being offered) for India's new fighter program.

https://www.flightglobal.com/singapore- ... 94.article

What's interesting about this is that India is already a customer for Russia's S400 missile system, on which it has spent €5b. This was, of course, the missile system which caused the cancellation of Turkey's F-35 deal (and may cause issues in Egypt too, which has expressed an interest in buying it).

It is certainly a change for the competition if Boeing offers such a big aircraft given this current competition started with the intent for 110 single engine fighters.

kaitak wrote:
- OK, this is for the F-15/F-18, not F-35s. Do the Americans not have the same concerns for these as for the F-35, or is it because the Americans are particularly sensitive about the F-35's "signature", being a new type? (Would the Trump administration allow the F-35 to India?)

Relations would have to improve for India to be offered the F-35. Never say never but perhaps post 2030 is a more likely timeframe. The US can issue waivers for countries who acquire significant Russian military hardware against their sanctions policy if it is in the interest of the US to maintain relations. India likely fits that category.

kaitak wrote:
- Or, is it different standards for different countries? The Trump administration simply doesn't want US companies locked out of a deal, simply because a country (particularly one which already a large, and relatively recent, buyer of US hardware).

As above, the US can issue waivers. Given Boeing is already in the race with the SH and the F-15, even in the EX guise, is still a very old airframe I doubt there would be any issues selling it to India.
kaitak wrote:
- Any deal is, of course, subject to US government approval, but if it were to go ahead, how might Turkey respond? Are all US fighters now banned to them, or just F-35s?

Turkey could still acquire other US fighters if they wanted to, the reason they were removed is as an F-35 partner and member of NATO they shouldn’t be acquiring Russian weapons. As far as I know F-16 spares have continued to flow to Turkey post their removal from the F-35 program.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:07 pm

Perhaps Boeing is getting a vibe from the Indian Air Force that they would prefer something not designed for the Navy?

Doesn't hurt to have all your bases covered.

Boeing need to drive the cost if the F-15 down to make it more palatable for foreign sale. India FA of the plane may do that.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
angad84
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:46 am

bikerthai wrote:
Perhaps Boeing is getting a vibe from the Indian Air Force that they would prefer something not designed for the Navy?

Perceptive, and correct.

bikerthai wrote:
Boeing need to drive the cost if the F-15 down to make it more palatable for foreign sale. India FA of the plane may do that.

Indian FA will likely add to the cost, not drive it down. But it depends on who sets up and manages the production. If Boeing, there's a shot at doing it cheaper. If the Indian Gov, then forget about it. I was privy to the figures for one local mfr programme some years ago, and the costs of doing it in India vs home country were astronomical. Unsurprisingly, the programme was shelved.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:54 pm

angad84 wrote:
and the costs of doing it in India vs home country were astronomical.


So far we have found that the extra cost of program management is offsetting the lower wage cost when working with India suppliers. Seems like as lower wage countries gain aerospace manufacturing experience, market price start to drive the cost up.

Personally feeling is that as India gain aerospace manufacturing experience it will be on par with China, but with less ITAR restriction. Thus making it the place to go. But it will be a while. Might take a generation.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
maint123
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:16 pm

Indians dont trust the Americans. The only offensive weapons India has bought is the recently acquired attack helicopters. Rest all are heavy transport aircraft, which are primarily dual use, for civil assistance and military.
Trump has been pressuring India to reduce the 25 b usd yearly deficit usa has with india , so India has bought a few billion worth of weapons. But India knows usa has a highly short term perspective in its foreign affairs , except with a few countries like Israel and maybe uk. USA will play both sides to sell weapons, India does not want to be caught again like in 1999 , when usa switched off the GPS during the kargil conflict. Would be bad if the Americans leaked technical information to our adversaries during time of conflict.
Only issue is the weakness in Modi's handling of foreign affairs , with his over riding enthusiasm to get American approval. Hope our civil and foreign services prevail with their experience of dealing with the Americans.
I would be very surprised if India chose any American fighter planes. A 5 b usd order has been just placed for the homegrown tejas , 85 odd planes.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:20 pm

maint123 wrote:
The only offensive weapons India has bought is the recently acquired attack helicopters.


Please define "recent". India will receive 4 more P-8I in next couple years. These are the 4 options as part of the original buy. There is talk in work at possible follow-up buys (highly probable?).

The attack helicopter is a watershed buy as I believe FA will be in India, which will be a first for Boeing hardware. If that goes well, then I believe Boeing will have the inside track for the fighter buy.

It's not whether India trust American equipment, it's whether the American company can successfully implement local production.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:23 pm

maint123 wrote:
A 5 b usd order has been just placed for the homegrown tejas


Curious,

How does the Tejas compares to the new T-X trainer? I mean, once Boeing gets approval for exporting the attack version of the T-X, does it make sense to have that plane built in India for local use and export to other Asian countries?

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
angad84
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:52 pm

maint123 wrote:
India does not want to be caught again like in 1999 , when usa switched off the GPS during the kargil conflict.

Uh, what?
maint123 wrote:
Would be bad if the Americans leaked technical information to our adversaries during time of conflict.

Uh, what?
maint123 wrote:
A 5 b usd order has been just placed for the homegrown tejas , 85 odd planes.

Uh, what?

bikerthai wrote:
India will receive 4 more P-8I in next couple years. These are the 4 options as part of the original buy. There is talk in work at possible follow-up buys (highly probable?).

There's little money left in the budget for more P-8Is, but yes, the IN does want more than than the 12 currently in operation/under delivery. 18-24 is the number I most often see. USG/Boeing would do well to push another six frames at "friends and family" prices...

bikerthai wrote:
The attack helicopter is a watershed buy as I believe FA will be in India, which will be a first for Boeing hardware. If that goes well, then I believe Boeing will have the inside track for the fighter buy.

No, but there are offsets, part of which are met thru production of Apache fuselages in India. Doesn't affect the fighter programme (different local partners).
bikerthai wrote:
It's not whether India trust American equipment, it's whether the American company can successfully implement local production.

Not quite. Concerns re: sovereignty, sanctions, etc are very much at the fore when it comes to dealing with the US for defence hardware. So it's worth noting the extent to which New Delhi has overcome 20+ years of skepticism. There is still more work to do before the relationship is completely smooth though. Trump doesn't help.

bikerthai wrote:
Curious,

How does the Tejas compares to the new T-X trainer? I mean, once Boeing gets approval for exporting the attack version of the T-X, does it make sense to have that plane built in India for local use and export to other Asian countries?

bt

Broadly comparable, but T-X will never come to India. If anything, an armed light multirole "F/A-7" will compete with Tejas (and F/A-50, and probably Gripen C/D if it's still around) once we get our act together, stabilize production, and start offering it for export. That said, the KAI F/A-50 and T-X are priced far more competitively, so India will have to seek out markets where the American jets are not serious contenders.
 
Ozair
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:46 pm

angad84 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Perhaps Boeing is getting a vibe from the Indian Air Force that they would prefer something not designed for the Navy?

Perceptive, and correct.

Do you see the F-15X as being competitive though? It is likely going to have a higher operating cost than the rest of the competition except for perhaps the Eurofighter. It will also likely have a higher acquisition cost than most. While the F-15X appears to be a very capable jet is it really what India is looking for from this looming 110 order, seems too much aircraft at too great a cost.

Better option is to go all in and maximize investment in the Rafale which is more than capable for what India requires.

maint123 wrote:
I would be very surprised if India chose any American fighter planes. A 5 b usd order has been just placed for the homegrown tejas , 85 odd planes.

Those two points are not directly linked. The 85 Tejas Mk1As will go ahead but have frankly come out quite costly compared to initial expectations. Whether the foreign 110 fighter jet order goes American is yet to be seen. As above I think the Rafale is the better option to select but with the SH and now the F-15X potentially in the competition (I don’t think the F-16/21 has ever had a decent chance) both options are viable for India with IMO the SH a better option than the F-15X.
 
maint123
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:19 am

India is being too short sighted in buying non stealth planes. If usa really wants a new relationship with India, it should offer the f35. India's main adversary in the next few decades is not Pakistan, a near failed country, but China with it's never ending expansionist tendencies.
If usa offers f35s , I would fully support buying American jets, all other jets are decades old and not worth the exposure to American moods.
In the meantime involve the private sector and churn out different variations of the tejas.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:22 am

The only thing I can think that would make the older plane competitive would be the lack of advance composite would allow for more local production.

The the other strength for Boeing would be the ability to put commercial work into India to meet off-sets requirements.

The ability to snag commercial work would ultimately be more lucrative down the road.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
maint123
Posts: 396
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:40 am

bikerthai wrote:
The only thing I can think that would make the older plane competitive would be the lack of advance composite would allow for more local production.

The the other strength for Boeing would be the ability to put commercial work into India to meet off-sets requirements.

The ability to snag commercial work would ultimately be more lucrative down the road.

bt

The problem with the often touted offsets is that it does not necessarily increase local knowledge or expertise. The seller can invest in making furniture in india , as a offset. It's only the value that is considered.
 
strfyr51
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:15 am

kaitak wrote:
Here's an interesting article about a Boeing plan to offer the F-15X to India (in addition to the F-18 variant already being offered) for India's new fighter program.

https://www.flightglobal.com/singapore- ... 94.article

What's interesting about this is that India is already a customer for Russia's S400 missile system, on which it has spent €5b. This was, of course, the missile system which caused the cancellation of Turkey's F-35 deal (and may cause issues in Egypt too, which has expressed an interest in buying it).

A few questions arise:
- OK, this is for the F-15/F-18, not F-35s. Do the Americans not have the same concerns for these as for the F-35, or is it because the Americans are particularly sensitive about the F-35's "signature", being a new type? (Would the Trump administration allow the F-35 to India?)
- Or, is it different standards for different countries? The Trump administration simply doesn't want US companies locked out of a deal, simply because a country (particularly one which already a large, and relatively recent, buyer of US hardware).
- Any deal is, of course, subject to US government approval, but if it were to go ahead, how might Turkey respond? Are all US fighters now banned to them, or just F-35s?


the F-15X would not come with the same avionics or fire control systems as any US model. They could install the Russian S400 and not miss a beat.
the airframe and Engines are not secret so there's no point in NOT selling the airplane to India the F35? well that is another story. That and the Raptor? Could make life HARD on the F15X in any country. Boeing is selling it because they need the Bread rather than because it's cutting Edge. They'll be going for the Next generation of Navy fighter, of that I have no doubt. And it will be in the vein of the F-22 and F-35..
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:26 pm

maint123 wrote:
The problem with the often touted offsets is that it does not necessarily increase local knowledge or expertise.


In theory you are correct. Off-set only require work to be placed in India, or monetary penalty would incur. However, Boeing now has a track record of placing significant work in India as part of the off-set requirement for the P-8A, C-17, A-64, CH-47. They have a long way to go to meet these off set requirement, but the commercial work they have placed in India will go a long way to address that issue. This is not purely altruistic. Boeing see India as a source of future technical talent as well as low cost manufacturing for their products.

When talking about technology, one tend to gravitate toward the latest and greatest development. However in the long run, basic technologies, like how to run an efficient factory and understand the industrial/cultural processes of working with a company like Boeing will allow everyone, from the front line mechanic to the program manager to better support future contracts and bring more work into the country.

One can't start a first rate aerospace manufacturing scratch over night. We started small with DTL and TAML over 10 years ago, just when we got into a good working relation with their program managers, they got hired off to other companies and we had to start over. However, the working knowledge of the person we trained would be disseminated to a wider part of India.

Unlike technology which can accelerate in leaps and bound, human takes longer to grow and develop. That is why I suggest it may take a generation before India gets to where it wants to be.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
maint123
Posts: 396
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:58 am

bikerthai wrote:
maint123 wrote:
The problem with the often touted offsets is that it does not necessarily increase local knowledge or expertise.


In theory you are correct. Off-set only require work to be placed in India, or monetary penalty would incur. However, Boeing now has a track record of placing significant work in India as part of the off-set requirement for the P-8A, C-17, A-64, CH-47. They have a long way to go to meet these off set requirement, but the commercial work they have placed in India will go a long way to address that issue. This is not purely altruistic. Boeing see India as a source of future technical talent as well as low cost manufacturing for their products.

When talking about technology, one tend to gravitate toward the latest and greatest development. However in the long run, basic technologies, like how to run an efficient factory and understand the industrial/cultural processes of working with a company like Boeing will allow everyone, from the front line mechanic to the program manager to better support future contracts and bring more work into the country.

One can't start a first rate aerospace manufacturing scratch over night. We started small with DTL and TAML over 10 years ago, just when we got into a good working relation with their program managers, they got hired off to other companies and we had to start over. However, the working knowledge of the person we trained would be disseminated to a wider part of India.

Unlike technology which can accelerate in leaps and bound, human takes longer to grow and develop. That is why I suggest it may take a generation before India gets to where it wants to be.

bt

I am a engineer with lots of experience in heavy industry. I have a very good idea of where India stands at the moment. We just lack the will and the right people in the correct positions. A company like hal ,which is mostly a retirement resort for a lot of exservicemen , with no real pressure or incentive to deliver, is the worst thing that can happen in a cutting edge area like aerospace. You need highly driven people in charge and at all levels in any industry but especially in aerospace.
Driven people in isro is a good example though under the present head it seems to be regressing. I give the example of delhi metro . As a project engineer, I can truly appreciate the effort required to work in a area like old Delhi. 400 kms of metro in 18 years in Delhi is a massive achievement. All due to one man Sridharan incharge, who had the experience and drive.
Involve companies like tata, walchander,l&t ,etc in a joint aerospace venture and watch it explode in India. These companies have the smarts to get anything done.
 
angad84
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:40 pm

Ozair wrote:
Do you see the F-15X as being competitive though?


The F-15's biggest competition in India is the Flanker, not Rafale.
Someone will have to justify why a second "heavy" fighter type instead of more "light" or "medium" because we buy planes like we buy vegetables -- by weight. Long story short, I don't rate the F-15X's chances.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Boeing offers India F-15X

Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:55 am

strfyr51 wrote:
kaitak wrote:
Here's an interesting article about a Boeing plan to offer the F-15X to India (in addition to the F-18 variant already being offered) for India's new fighter program.

https://www.flightglobal.com/singapore- ... 94.article

What's interesting about this is that India is already a customer for Russia's S400 missile system, on which it has spent €5b. This was, of course, the missile system which caused the cancellation of Turkey's F-35 deal (and may cause issues in Egypt too, which has expressed an interest in buying it).

A few questions arise:
- OK, this is for the F-15/F-18, not F-35s. Do the Americans not have the same concerns for these as for the F-35, or is it because the Americans are particularly sensitive about the F-35's "signature", being a new type? (Would the Trump administration allow the F-35 to India?)
- Or, is it different standards for different countries? The Trump administration simply doesn't want US companies locked out of a deal, simply because a country (particularly one which already a large, and relatively recent, buyer of US hardware).
- Any deal is, of course, subject to US government approval, but if it were to go ahead, how might Turkey respond? Are all US fighters now banned to them, or just F-35s?


the F-15X would not come with the same avionics or fire control systems as any US model. They could install the Russian S400 and not miss a beat.
the airframe and Engines are not secret so there's no point in NOT selling the airplane to India the F35? well that is another story. That and the Raptor? Could make life HARD on the F15X in any country. Boeing is selling it because they need the Bread rather than because it's cutting Edge. They'll be going for the Next generation of Navy fighter, of that I have no doubt. And it will be in the vein of the F-22 and F-35..

I would expect an Indian version of the F-15 will be technically similar to some of the most recent export model Eagles, such as the Saudi and Qatari Eagles.

I also suspect that some Israeli systems would make onto an Indian Eagle; the Israeli's and the Indians enjoy a close defence relationship.

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