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glideslope
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P&W and the F-15EX?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:16 pm

I'm interested in thoughts on this? Personally, I'm of the opinion that development of a second option is a positive. Would a 2yr delay be of any consequence in real word operational requirements?

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... 77a0757f66
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
texl1649
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:55 pm

Yes, it would functionally kill the program. The whole point is a rapid off the shelf acquisition because we basically can’t get/re-equip/train all the F-15C folks quickly enough. Wait ‘2 years’, and that wouldn’t be as much/any issue. Pratt is really thumbing their noses at the USAF over this, and it’s pretty surprising to me.
 
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glideslope
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:07 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Yes, it would functionally kill the program. The whole point is a rapid off the shelf acquisition because we basically can’t get/re-equip/train all the F-15C folks quickly enough. Wait ‘2 years’, and that wouldn’t be as much/any issue. Pratt is really thumbing their noses at the USAF over this, and it’s pretty surprising to me.


Thanks for your perspective. I see your points.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:36 am

PW has fought tooth and nail to be the only engine on the F-35. They have been late on nearly every delivery and the engine cost has not come down as much as expected.

PW's engine had its chance when the F-15ex came together for the ME sales. I am sure the Contracts part of DOD has records of prior unit costs. To have any chance of winning a protest, someone calculated the government estimate of 100 engines x GE price < 100 x Pratt's price +certification cost.

PW will regret doing this protest. But like 2/3 of DOD bids get protested.
 
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747classic
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:01 pm

The USAF rewarded PW more than enough by selecting PW4062 engines on the KC-46A, while most civil operators are selecting GE CF6 engines and previous KC767 aircraft were also GE powered.
Also the PW monopoly on the F-35 seems to be a disaster (over time, over budget, reliability issues?)
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:48 pm

I recall Boeing selected the PW4062 as the engine for its offering. The competing tanker was the A330 with GE engines. Not sure if Airbus locked GE first, or Boeing selected PW. I remember when it was first announced I couldn't believe they had not done the GE's, but there was some factor in there that caused Boeing to select them. I have not seen any of the actual RFP to see if there were factors there that caused Boeing to go PW, I am sure that there were some informal discussion about the preferred engine on the KC-46, but it is the Contractor to decide who is on their team.

Yes, PW has enough mil programs they did not need to protest this.
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:53 pm

P&W had exclusive engines for:
C-17
KC-46A
F-22
F-35
50% F-16
50% F-15
F-15E
E-3 (USAF, NATO)
E-8A/C
C/EC/KC-135A/Q/C/E
B-52 (all models)
C-141
F/FB/EF-111
F-4
VC-137
C/VC-32A
A/EA-6
A/EA/ERA-3
F-14A/B
They also refurbish most of these engines.
They don't need to build engines for the F-15EX. P&W is just being greedy
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:26 pm

Keep in mind this is effectively a non-solicited private venture. Opening up to engine competitive selection has been, even historically speaking, *exceedingly* rare.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
ThePointblank
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:28 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
PW has fought tooth and nail to be the only engine on the F-35. They have been late on nearly every delivery and the engine cost has not come down as much as expected.

PW's engine had its chance when the F-15ex came together for the ME sales. I am sure the Contracts part of DOD has records of prior unit costs. To have any chance of winning a protest, someone calculated the government estimate of 100 engines x GE price < 100 x Pratt's price +certification cost.

PW will regret doing this protest. But like 2/3 of DOD bids get protested.

To be fair, the selection of GE for the Saudi and Qatari orders wasn't done because the GE engine was superior or more cost effective; I've heard in the case of Saudi Arabia, the Saudi Air Force disagreed with the decision, but the people controlling the purse strings (namely, the royal families of both countries) decided otherwise.

Notice that the last couple of sales of the F-16, which is available with both GE and Pratt engine options, most customers went Pratt, including Israel and Greece, which operate both engines, and Poland, which picked Pratt over GE.

It should be noted that South Korea went with the GE F110 engine for the initial batch of F-15K's; they had innumerable problems with the combination, which was not resolved to the satisfaction of the South Koreans, despite the assistance of the USAF, Boeing, and GE. As such, South Korea went back to the Pratt F100 engine for the second batch of F-15K's.
 
744SPX
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Wed May 20, 2020 3:40 pm

Here we go again... Pratt is back in the mix.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 46.article

IMO, if for some reason Pratt wins, they should be forced to find a solution to their F100 turkey feather "problem" on the F-15. There really is no excuse other than 40 years of laziness/sloppiness, both on the part of Pratt and the USAF. GE made it work. No other close-spaced twin engine mounted aircraft/engine combination in the world has this issue except for the B-1B.

It adds base drag and makes the aircraft look ugly, the ugly part is not trivial when you are talking about an aircraft costing many tens of millions. It should look halfway presentable. With that logic, why even paint the aircraft? How about removing skin panels covering flight control actuators as well? Show's a lack of pride in an aircraft, like a trashed interior shows a lack of pride in a home.

Sorry, this is a rant 40 years in the making, as ~40 years ago is when the turkey feathers were removed Air Force wide from all F-15's. The aircraft was never supposed to have that turkey-feather-less engine nozzle configuration and its a downgrade, however small, in performance and importantly, presentability. (Same goes for the B-1B for that matter)
 
DigitalSea
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Wed May 20, 2020 4:41 pm

There's nothing wrong with using the General Electric GE90 to power the F-15EX, PW can take a hike.
 
Ozair
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Wed May 20, 2020 9:13 pm

744SPX wrote:
Here we go again... Pratt is back in the mix.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 46.article

IMO, if for some reason Pratt wins, they should be forced to find a solution to their F100 turkey feather "problem" on the F-15. There really is no excuse other than 40 years of laziness/sloppiness, both on the part of Pratt and the USAF. GE made it work. No other close-spaced twin engine mounted aircraft/engine combination in the world has this issue except for the B-1B.

It adds base drag and makes the aircraft look ugly, the ugly part is not trivial when you are talking about an aircraft costing many tens of millions. It should look halfway presentable. With that logic, why even paint the aircraft? How about removing skin panels covering flight control actuators as well? Show's a lack of pride in an aircraft, like a trashed interior shows a lack of pride in a home.

Sorry, this is a rant 40 years in the making, as ~40 years ago is when the turkey feathers were removed Air Force wide from all F-15's. The aircraft was never supposed to have that turkey-feather-less engine nozzle configuration and its a downgrade, however small, in performance and importantly, presentability. (Same goes for the B-1B for that matter)

Well that surprised me, I really didn't expect that P&W would win that protest. Will be interesting to see which comes in cheaper. P&W is the incumbent and the infrastructure at ANG F-15C/D bases is all present for F100s. Recent F-16 competitions have been split between each engine though so they are likely very close on cost.

DigitalSea wrote:
There's nothing wrong with using the General Electric GE90 to power the F-15EX, PW can take a hike.

Hah, assume you mean the GE F110, the GE90 is a little too heavy and wide for the F-15...
 
DigitalSea
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Wed May 20, 2020 11:25 pm

Ozair wrote:
DigitalSea wrote:
There's nothing wrong with using the General Electric GE90 to power the F-15EX, PW can take a hike.

Hah, assume you mean the GE F110, the GE90 is a little too heavy and wide for the F-15...


GE & the USAF conducted a study that showed the GE90 fan blades can reduced significantly to allow for two engines to fit inside of the F-15EX, allowing it to achieve supercruise without the need for afterburner.
 
Ozair
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Wed May 20, 2020 11:53 pm

DigitalSea wrote:
Ozair wrote:
DigitalSea wrote:
There's nothing wrong with using the General Electric GE90 to power the F-15EX, PW can take a hike.

Hah, assume you mean the GE F110, the GE90 is a little too heavy and wide for the F-15...


GE & the USAF conducted a study that showed the GE90 fan blades can reduced significantly to allow for two engines to fit inside of the F-15EX, allowing it to achieve supercruise without the need for afterburner.

Well if you're going to make a claim like that I think it is best you provide a source? The F110 for the F-15EX is a standard off the shelf engine for the USAF used by the F-16 and for international partners on the F-15 and F-16. At the moment it is the only engine integrated on the F-15QA which the USAF/Boeing is basing the F-15EX off.

Perhaps over the last twenty years GE has included some technology from the GE90 into the F110 but there is no GE90 that will ever power the F-15EX or any other fighter aircraft.
 
DigitalSea
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Thu May 21, 2020 12:16 am

Ozair wrote:
Perhaps over the last twenty years GE has included some technology from the GE90 into the F110 but there is no GE90 that will ever power the F-15EX or any other fighter aircraft.


Just givin' ya a little run there mate!
 
SuperiorPilotMe
Posts: 202
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Thu May 21, 2020 7:34 pm

DigitalSea wrote:
Just givin' ya a little run there mate!


Clearly, instead of telling you to stop drinking the OAN Kool-Aid I should've told you to stop drinking Foster's excessively.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
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spudh
Posts: 357
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Sat May 23, 2020 6:24 am

744SPX wrote:
Here we go again... Pratt is back in the mix.

IMO, if for some reason Pratt wins, they should be forced to find a solution to their F100 turkey feather "problem" on the F-15. There really is no excuse other than 40 years of laziness/sloppiness, both on the part of Pratt and the USAF. GE made it work. No other close-spaced twin engine mounted aircraft/engine combination in the world has this issue except for the B-1B.


Sorry, this is a rant 40 years in the making, as ~40 years ago is when the turkey feathers were removed Air Force wide from all F-15's. The aircraft was never supposed to have that turkey-feather-less engine nozzle configuration and its a downgrade, however small, in performance and importantly, presentability. (Same goes for the B-1B for that matter)


Sorry, I'm a little confused. The B1-B had GE engines, from which the F14-B/D engines were derived. I'm not aware that they had turkey feather issues with the B1-B.
 
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747classic
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Sat May 23, 2020 8:25 am

spudh wrote:
744SPX wrote:
Here we go again... Pratt is back in the mix.

IMO, if for some reason Pratt wins, they should be forced to find a solution to their F100 turkey feather "problem" on the F-15. There really is no excuse other than 40 years of laziness/sloppiness, both on the part of Pratt and the USAF. GE made it work. No other close-spaced twin engine mounted aircraft/engine combination in the world has this issue except for the B-1B.


Sorry, this is a rant 40 years in the making, as ~40 years ago is when the turkey feathers were removed Air Force wide from all F-15's. The aircraft was never supposed to have that turkey-feather-less engine nozzle configuration and its a downgrade, however small, in performance and importantly, presentability. (Same goes for the B-1B for that matter)


Sorry, I'm a little confused. The B1-B had GE engines, from which the F14-B/D engines were derived. I'm not aware that they had turkey feather issues with the B1-B.


"One of the interesting minor details of the B-1B is that the Bone was originally delivered with "turkey feathers" shroud around the variable engine exhaust. The shroud was removed in the 1990s as a weight and maintenance reduction measure, leaving the variable exhaust actuators exposed."
See : http://www.airvectors.net/avb1.html
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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spudh
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Sat May 23, 2020 4:01 pm

viewtopic.php?t=1018201

Came across this from a long time ago.

I remember reading that the turkey feathers played a significant part in form drag. Specifically it was how well it was managed with the F-14 in comparison to the F-111B. IIRC there was something in the way the airflow interacted with the turkey feathers on the F-15 was creating hot spots and that they decided the trade off was worth just leaving them off instead of a technical fix i.e. the loss of range through form drag was an acceptable trade-off for the reduction in maintenance/cost of fixing.

I just trawled the net for turkey feathers on the B1-B and sure enough, there they are, gone! Never noticed that before and I'm a big fan of the bone!
 
SuperiorPilotMe
Posts: 202
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Sat May 23, 2020 8:25 pm

Ozair wrote:

It adds base drag and makes the aircraft look ugly, the ugly part is not trivial when you are talking about an aircraft costing many tens of millions. It should look halfway presentable. With that logic, why even paint the aircraft? How about removing skin panels covering flight control actuators as well? Show's a lack of pride in an aircraft, like a trashed interior shows a lack of pride in a home.


Really? Tidiness and cleanliness are one thing (although I would argue paint serves a more tactical role anyway - with that logic, why not paint them Ferrari Red?) but outward, apparent aesthetic design is another. Aircraft, yes including the A-10, are inherently good-looking as a side effect of aerodynamics (and there's hard science to back up how humans really like aerodynamic, swoopy shapes) and even main battle tanks due to a variety of considerations (how people have been culturally imbued to associate MBTs as symbols of unstoppable power, how they have to be designed with careful consideration to CG and balance and thus end up having a generally pleasing look, many other factors far beyond the scope of this topic) but Apaches are far from beauty queens (although again that association with power and capability can retroactively make it look better, again hard science data supporting this). Freight locomotives are also very expensive and they're...not great looking either.

But I understand what you're saying and the issue of the turkey feathers is borderline between an mere inherent design/operational issue and a tidiness issue.

Well that surprised me, I really didn't expect that P&W would win that protest. Will be interesting to see which comes in cheaper. P&W is the incumbent and the infrastructure at ANG F-15C/D bases is all present for F100s. Recent F-16 competitions have been split between each engine though so they are likely very close on cost.


I wonder if we might see a split-block buy based on engine choice ala that F-16? F-15...G or whatever...Block 10 for the GE, and Block 15 for the PW?

DigitalSea wrote:
There's nothing wrong with using the General Electric GE90 to power the F-15EX, PW can take a hike.

Hah, assume you mean the GE F110, the GE90 is a little too heavy and wide for the F-15...


DigitalSea has proven himself to be an idiot of the highest caliber imaginable so I do not doubt at all he means GE90.
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
DigitalSea
Posts: 214
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Re: P&W and the F-15EX?

Mon May 25, 2020 6:25 pm

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
DigitalSea has proven himself to be an idiot of the highest caliber imaginable so I do not doubt at all he means GE90.


It was a joke :) Lighten up there bucko!

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