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889091
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German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:46 pm

Haven't seen this posted before but here is the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mamVCnfxjHI

Fast forward to 3:30. Pilot seems to try and light the afterburner on the starboard engine a few times, but only gets it going after the 3rd try.

What could have caused this? In addition, shouldn't the takeoff have been aborted?
 
wingman
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:27 pm

By the time the Luftwaffe got on station the Russians were already clubbing in Munich. Bad things happen when you're tardy.
 
steman
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:32 am

Those engines are really old. It´s high time that the Luftwaffe fields in a replacement.
 
VSMUT
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:51 am

I suppose it's a worn out igniter that needs to be replaced. Nothing special, it also happens on commercial aircraft with the igniters in the combustion chamber.
 
889091
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:00 pm

VSMUT wrote:
I suppose it's a worn out igniter that needs to be replaced. Nothing special, it also happens on commercial aircraft with the igniters in the combustion chamber.


Wouldn't it cause asymmetric thrust problems in flight if the afterburners are engaged and you have a worn igniter in one of the engines? Granted the engines are located close to each other, so it wouldn't be much of an issue, but still......
 
VSMUT
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:21 pm

889091 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
I suppose it's a worn out igniter that needs to be replaced. Nothing special, it also happens on commercial aircraft with the igniters in the combustion chamber.


Wouldn't it cause asymmetric thrust problems in flight if the afterburners are engaged and you have a worn igniter in one of the engines? Granted the engines are located close to each other, so it wouldn't be much of an issue, but still......


It would, but not more than an engine failure, which it would presumably be able to handle.
 
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scbriml
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:21 pm

Tornado afterburner departures are amongst my favourite...
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
889091
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:02 pm

scbriml wrote:
Tornado afterburner departures are amongst my favourite...


I didn't realise how smoky they are until I watched the video. Right up there with the Mig-29...
 
meecrob
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:53 pm

889091 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
I suppose it's a worn out igniter that needs to be replaced. Nothing special, it also happens on commercial aircraft with the igniters in the combustion chamber.


Wouldn't it cause asymmetric thrust problems in flight if the afterburners are engaged and you have a worn igniter in one of the engines? Granted the engines are located close to each other, so it wouldn't be much of an issue, but still......


I imagine that this maintenance has been deferred due to the plane being a demonstration aircraft. The routine has been practiced, the igniter failure known, and was deemed by the manufacturer/air force to be adequate for a certain amount of hours for demonstrations, or immediate replacement if placed into a combat situation.

...Or maybe the pilot was trying to be "fashionably late" to his own demo...


EDIT: My mistake! I assumed this was a demonstration flight. While not exactly the same scenario, I could see training flights flying with similar deferred maintenance as long as all the paperwork is in order. Basically what I am getting at is I think that everyone already knew this igniter was defective, it was not discovered to be faulty the moment it failed to light in this video.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:48 pm

meecrob wrote:
I imagine that this maintenance has been deferred due to the plane being a demonstration aircraft. The routine has been practiced, the igniter failure known, and was deemed by the manufacturer/air force to be adequate for a certain amount of hours for demonstrations, or immediate replacement if placed into a combat situation.

...Or maybe the pilot was trying to be "fashionably late" to his own demo...


EDIT: My mistake! I assumed this was a demonstration flight. While not exactly the same scenario, I could see training flights flying with similar deferred maintenance as long as all the paperwork is in order. Basically what I am getting at is I think that everyone already knew this igniter was defective, it was not discovered to be faulty the moment it failed to light in this video.


I think you're thinking way too far into this. These things happen sometimes, that's why the word 'surprise' is in the dictionary.

It didn't light, pilot re-attempted a few times, and 3rd time lucky it worked. I can't say definitively, but the other engine is pretty good evidence: if the pilot knew his right can was on the fritz he/she would probably try lighting that one first instead of parking the left engine in AB whilst attempting a burner light. Fighter pilots hate wasting gas.
"I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook, and, by gum, it put them on the map!"
 
angad84
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:36 pm

I'm just impressed the Tonka's brakes can hold it with one engine at max wet and the other at (presumably) max dry!

But this also reminded me of a joke I heard in the UK a few years ago...
Q: "What's a Tornado four-ship?"
A: "Four brief, three start, two taxi, one takes off!"
 
meecrob
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:24 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
meecrob wrote:
I imagine that this maintenance has been deferred due to the plane being a demonstration aircraft. The routine has been practiced, the igniter failure known, and was deemed by the manufacturer/air force to be adequate for a certain amount of hours for demonstrations, or immediate replacement if placed into a combat situation.

...Or maybe the pilot was trying to be "fashionably late" to his own demo...


EDIT: My mistake! I assumed this was a demonstration flight. While not exactly the same scenario, I could see training flights flying with similar deferred maintenance as long as all the paperwork is in order. Basically what I am getting at is I think that everyone already knew this igniter was defective, it was not discovered to be faulty the moment it failed to light in this video.


I think you're thinking way too far into this. These things happen sometimes, that's why the word 'surprise' is in the dictionary.

It didn't light, pilot re-attempted a few times, and 3rd time lucky it worked. I can't say definitively, but the other engine is pretty good evidence: if the pilot knew his right can was on the fritz he/she would probably try lighting that one first instead of parking the left engine in AB whilst attempting a burner light. Fighter pilots hate wasting gas.


Haha thanks for that reality check...I suddenly realized I am applying emergency virus measures to absolutely everything. Seriously I was thinking of it in terms of reducing maintenance to minimum levels. Well I'm laughing at me, hope you all are too!
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:19 pm

angad84 wrote:
I'm just impressed the Tonka's brakes can hold it with one engine at max wet and the other at (presumably) max dry!

But this also reminded me of a joke I heard in the UK a few years ago...
Q: "What's a Tornado four-ship?"
A: "Four brief, three start, two taxi, one takes off!"


Ha! That sounds about right. Re: the brakes, I don't know if it's because the brakes are so good or because the motors are so anemic. All my experiences tell me Tornado engines are not the epitome of power. At least when >FL180...

Image

meecrob wrote:
Haha thanks for that reality check...I suddenly realized I am applying emergency virus measures to absolutely everything. Seriously I was thinking of it in terms of reducing maintenance to minimum levels. Well I'm laughing at me, hope you all are too!


No worries. Funny how we get into a mindset and have to step back on occasion. Strange times we're living in!
"I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook, and, by gum, it put them on the map!"
 
GDB
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:04 am

LyleLanley wrote:
angad84 wrote:
I'm just impressed the Tonka's brakes can hold it with one engine at max wet and the other at (presumably) max dry!

But this also reminded me of a joke I heard in the UK a few years ago...
Q: "What's a Tornado four-ship?"
A: "Four brief, three start, two taxi, one takes off!"


Ha! That sounds about right. Re: the brakes, I don't know if it's because the brakes are so good or because the motors are so anemic. All my experiences tell me Tornado engines are not the epitome of power. At least when >FL180...

That's because they and the IDS were designed for low level strike.
With the ADV, they were improved but even then the role of that version to loiter in the UK Air Defence area, which covered a lot more than the airspace around the UK.

In 2019, when the RAF retired the Tornado, some did ask if it's been modernised, can carry modern weapons, why retire it? The answer at least those given by crews, ground and air, was the increasing burden of keeping 30+ year old aircraft going, the RAF fleet having been constantly deployed operationally since 1990, first in Gulf War 1, was being used from Cyprus to attack ISIS, right up until weeks before retirement. Nearly 30 years of operational deployment and combat.
 
texl1649
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:13 pm

Are the Saudi’s to be the final operator of Tornados? I think theirs are all, ball parking, around 30 years old?

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/sa ... dos-06201/
 
angad84
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:38 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
Ha! That sounds about right. Re: the brakes, I don't know if it's because the brakes are so good or because the motors are so anemic. All my experiences tell me Tornado engines are not the epitome of power. At least when >FL180...

This is a good point, and reminds me that I've seen it before with our IAF Jaguars. They are the only other fast jets I've seen that can stand on the brakes with the burners at max (gets you some incredible night photos if you can time it right!)

Other jets, like Floggers and Fulcrums, actually drag the wheels a bit if the pilot is still hanging on the brakes as he pushes past max dry -- they're right on the limit for military power, and that's about it!
 
GDB
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:19 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Are the Saudi’s to be the final operator of Tornados? I think theirs are all, ball parking, around 30 years old?

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/sa ... dos-06201/


Yes, though a comparison of RAF and RSAF fleets I suspect would show a marked disparity in real 'age', hours and cycles as opposed to years. The Saudi's got their first ones in the mid/late 80's, a few years after the RAF, the last off the line in the late 90's were for the Saudis. So that has to be factored in.
 
GDB
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:21 pm

Double post.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: German Tornado IDS - Afterburner fails to light. Gets going after 3rd attempt

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:47 pm

angad84 wrote:
This is a good point, and reminds me that I've seen it before with our IAF Jaguars. They are the only other fast jets I've seen that can stand on the brakes with the burners at max (gets you some incredible night photos if you can time it right!)

Other jets, like Floggers and Fulcrums, actually drag the wheels a bit if the pilot is still hanging on the brakes as he pushes past max dry -- they're right on the limit for military power, and that's about it!


The Jaguar is a cool jet. I had the pleasure of seeing one at Thumrait awhile back and was impressed. You're lucky to still enjoy them!
"I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook, and, by gum, it put them on the map!"

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