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zululima
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USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Fri May 15, 2020 11:13 pm

Article at FlightGlobal:

http://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/us-navy-begins-search-for-next-jet-trainer-to-replace-t-45-goshawk/138400.article

Another jet trainer competition about to kick off, this time the US Navy is looking for a two-seater to handle intensive land-based training and carrier touch-and-go's. Interestingly enough, this means no carrier landings and cats, although I assume the jet would have to have the capability for both due to its usage in "field carrier" training, and for emergencies. The number of hard landings they are expecting this thing to take is amazing, and I assume any non-navalized trainer will have to have significant structural strengthening and more robust landing gear, etc.

The service wants an assessment of how certain aircraft would handle the forces of high sink rate landings, the hallmark of training for landing on the short deck of an aircraft carrier.

The next generation trainer is expected to fly 400h a year. The USN wants to conduct field carrier landing practices at a rate of 1,200 per aircraft per year. It wants each aircraft to perform carrier touch-and-go landings 45 times per year.

The aircraft is to have a flight life of at least 14,400h and be able to sustain 43,200 landings.


Some expected contenders include the "Mini F-18":

Likely competitors in the USN’s next generation trainer program would be the Boeing-Saab T-7A jet, recent winner of the US Air Force’s T-X trainer competition; Lockheed Martin’s T-50A, based on the FA-50, a light attack and trainer aircraft developed with Korea Aerospace Industries; and Leonardo’s T-100, based on the Alenia Aermacchi M-346 Master, a light attack and trainer aircraft.

The T-45 is a variant of the 1970s British Aerospace Hawk, developed jointly for the USN by McDonnell Douglas and British Aerospace. Boeing acquired the programme in 1997 when it merged with McDonnell Douglas.
I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
 
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Slug71
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Fri May 15, 2020 11:33 pm

The T-7 probably has a good chance here too. While it would require some modification for carrier ops, increased production and commonality will benefit both services with reduced costs.
Boeing could probably just scale down some parts from the Hornet too.
 
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par13del
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Sat May 16, 2020 1:34 am

Well, unless the politicians get involved I do not see the Navy using the Air Force trainer, inter-service rivalry and all that.
If the Mini F-18 is the two seat original Hornet with updates, it should be cheaper and quicker than a all new design, the original Hornet is a good deal smaller and should be less expensive than a Super Hornet.
 
Ozair
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Sat May 16, 2020 9:26 am

par13del wrote:
Well, unless the politicians get involved I do not see the Navy using the Air Force trainer, inter-service rivalry and all that.
If the Mini F-18 is the two seat original Hornet with updates, it should be cheaper and quicker than a all new design, the original Hornet is a good deal smaller and should be less expensive than a Super Hornet.

I think when Zululima used the term mini F-18 he was talking about the T-7, not an actual F-18. It is beyond unlikely that Boeing would offer a classic Hornet reborn for this competition.

I don't think inter-service rivalry will play a part here either, a decent number of USAF pilots do portions of their flight training with the Navy and a portion of Navy aircrew do their training with the USAF.

zululima wrote:
The number of hard landings they are expecting this thing to take is amazing, and I assume any non-navalized trainer will have to have significant structural strengthening and more robust landing gear, etc.

Those are some very impressive numbers they are seeking. The Hawk was able to become the T-45 so I expect all the contenders are capable after some modification.
 
rfields5421
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Sat May 16, 2020 2:16 pm

Ozair wrote:
I don't think inter-service rivalry will play a part here either, a decent number of USAF pilots do portions of their flight training with the Navy and a portion of Navy aircrew do their training with the USAF.


It is not so much a rivalry as different goals.

In the past USAF has seen the weight and structural components necessary to sustain FCLP and carrier operations as 'wasted' on an Air Force aircraft.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
texl1649
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Sun May 17, 2020 3:41 pm

I’m really surprised this would be a priority over the next 10 years for the USN. The newest T-45 is only around 10 years old. Certainly, it’s unfair to expect “T-38” longevity out of a carrier based trainer, but I’ve read nothing indicating sustainability problems for the Goshawks over the past 10 years, and trainers typically last a long time (as did the TA-4’s before them).

The USN has plenty of time to watch the USAF work out kinks in the T-7 program it seems prior to deciding if they want to move down that road.
 
VSMUT
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Sun May 17, 2020 4:19 pm

Slug71 wrote:
The T-7 probably has a good chance here too. While it would require some modification for carrier ops, increased production and commonality will benefit both services with reduced costs.
Boeing could probably just scale down some parts from the Hornet too.


Doesn't the T-7s tail sit a bit low and far out to the rear?

What other types would be up for consideration? A Hawk T2/T-45 based offering from BAe perhaps? M-346?
 
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Slug71
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Sun May 17, 2020 6:55 pm

rfields5421 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
I don't think inter-service rivalry will play a part here either, a decent number of USAF pilots do portions of their flight training with the Navy and a portion of Navy aircrew do their training with the USAF.


It is not so much a rivalry as different goals.

In the past USAF has seen the weight and structural components necessary to sustain FCLP and carrier operations as 'wasted' on an Air Force aircraft.


I doubt (and dont think anyone was suggesting) USN mods would be ported over to the AF frames.


VSMUT wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
The T-7 probably has a good chance here too. While it would require some modification for carrier ops, increased production and commonality will benefit both services with reduced costs.
Boeing could probably just scale down some parts from the Hornet too.


Doesn't the T-7s tail sit a bit low and far out to the rear?

What other types would be up for consideration? A Hawk T2/T-45 based offering from BAe perhaps? M-346?


Doesn't appear to be,

Image

Image
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Mon May 18, 2020 12:06 am

Slug71 wrote:
The T-7 probably has a good chance here too. While it would require some modification for carrier ops, increased production and commonality will benefit both services with reduced costs.
Boeing could probably just scale down some parts from the Hornet too.


I agree - except for the modifications for carrier landings. I think a standard T-7A will fit the bill with no carrier trap equipment because, well, I'll put it on here right now that I'll be willing to entertain a number of embarrassing bets from you guys if I turn out to be wrong.

My point being, that's how confident I am the new Navy's trainer will have exactly zilch trap equip. It's just not necessary for a trainer. I don't even think the Navy uses the T-45s carrier ops to anywhere near originally envisioned tempo. They don't even have a dedicated training carrier anymore.

par13del wrote:
Well, unless the politicians get involved I do not see the Navy using the Air Force trainer, inter-service rivalry and all that.


Well then I'm not sure how to break the news to you that the Navy uses T-6A Texan IIs then....
Stop the stupids!- Claus Kellerman
 
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Slug71
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Mon May 18, 2020 4:08 am

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
The T-7 probably has a good chance here too. While it would require some modification for carrier ops, increased production and commonality will benefit both services with reduced costs.
Boeing could probably just scale down some parts from the Hornet too.


I agree - except for the modifications for carrier landings. I think a standard T-7A will fit the bill with no carrier trap equipment because, well, I'll put it on here right now that I'll be willing to entertain a number of embarrassing bets from you guys if I turn out to be wrong.

My point being, that's how confident I am the new Navy's trainer will have exactly zilch trap equip. It's just not necessary for a trainer. I don't even think the Navy uses the T-45s carrier ops to anywhere near originally envisioned tempo. They don't even have a dedicated training carrier anymore.


Very interesting. That would certainly make the T-7A that much more attractive. The main landing gear of the T-7A even looks beefier than what the T-45 has.
So maybe just a nose gear change/mod?
 
ThePointblank
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Mon May 18, 2020 4:46 am

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
The T-7 probably has a good chance here too. While it would require some modification for carrier ops, increased production and commonality will benefit both services with reduced costs.
Boeing could probably just scale down some parts from the Hornet too.


I agree - except for the modifications for carrier landings. I think a standard T-7A will fit the bill with no carrier trap equipment because, well, I'll put it on here right now that I'll be willing to entertain a number of embarrassing bets from you guys if I turn out to be wrong.

My point being, that's how confident I am the new Navy's trainer will have exactly zilch trap equip. It's just not necessary for a trainer. I don't even think the Navy uses the T-45s carrier ops to anywhere near originally envisioned tempo. They don't even have a dedicated training carrier anymore.

par13del wrote:
Well, unless the politicians get involved I do not see the Navy using the Air Force trainer, inter-service rivalry and all that.


Well then I'm not sure how to break the news to you that the Navy uses T-6A Texan IIs then....

The USN does use whatever carrier is working up as their training carrier; right now, it is USS Ford that's serving as the training carrier right now.
 
angad84
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Mon May 18, 2020 5:59 pm

Re: the T-7A, it looks like the MLG would foul with the doors if it slammed down too hard (i.e. FCLP, trap)
 
INFINITI329
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Fri May 22, 2020 7:05 pm

I don't understand the Navy's thinking in regard to non-carrier capable aircraft. To me this makes no sense. to me. It will be cheaper to practice carrier landings in trainer aircraft than would be in a strike fighter. I don't think your first carrier landing or cat shot should be in a strike fighter. I really don't get this philosophy. The Air Force wants to move more training to their trainer while the Navy wants to do the opposite.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Sat May 23, 2020 1:38 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
I don't understand the Navy's thinking in regard to non-carrier capable aircraft. To me this makes no sense. to me. It will be cheaper to practice carrier landings in trainer aircraft than would be in a strike fighter. I don't think your first carrier landing or cat shot should be in a strike fighter. I really don't get this philosophy. The Air Force wants to move more training to their trainer while the Navy wants to do the opposite.

The Navy is testing and implementing the Maritime Augmented Guidance with Integrated Controls for Carrier Approach and Recovery Precision Enabling Technologies (Magic Carpet) across their entire strike fleet, which should make carrier landings as routine and easy as landing on shore-based runway. Basically, it's an autopilot based approach and landing system, similar to commercial aviation's ILS system.
 
Max Q
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Sat May 23, 2020 4:53 am

Slug71 wrote:
rfields5421 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
I don't think inter-service rivalry will play a part here either, a decent number of USAF pilots do portions of their flight training with the Navy and a portion of Navy aircrew do their training with the USAF.


It is not so much a rivalry as different goals.

In the past USAF has seen the weight and structural components necessary to sustain FCLP and carrier operations as 'wasted' on an Air Force aircraft.


I doubt (and dont think anyone was suggesting) USN mods would be ported over to the AF frames.


VSMUT wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
The T-7 probably has a good chance here too. While it would require some modification for carrier ops, increased production and commonality will benefit both services with reduced costs.
Boeing could probably just scale down some parts from the Hornet too.


Doesn't the T-7s tail sit a bit low and far out to the rear?

What other types would be up for consideration? A Hawk T2/T-45 based offering from BAe perhaps? M-346?


Doesn't appear to be,

Image

Image



Interesting picture


Anyone know what those two large exposed compartments under the cockpit(s) are for ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: USN Begins Process to Select New Jet Trainer/T-45 Replacement

Sat May 23, 2020 7:16 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
I don't understand the Navy's thinking in regard to non-carrier capable aircraft. To me this makes no sense. to me. It will be cheaper to practice carrier landings in trainer aircraft than would be in a strike fighter.


But it's even cheaper to practice landings in trainer aircraft on shore-based bases only and forego carrier landing training completely.

ThePointBlank already covered the technology that makes this possible but it had been something the Navy had been contemplating for decades as carrier landings are expensive, regardless what aircraft used. I believe prior to MAGIC CARPET it was an attitude of "hope that shore-based training is enough and for the best" but needless to say MAGIC CARPET will be a big help.

I imagine this will be my last post for a long while at least due to actions in other threads that, yes, I am very proud of.
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