Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4881
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Germany cancels P-3C modernisation; looking for replacement

Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:39 pm

Won't long legged drones be taking over this kind of surveillance? And for Germany fast fighter aircraft would be only minutes away from providing tactical cover and weapons, at least in all of the home waters.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
duboka
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:07 pm

Re: Germany cancels P-3C modernisation; looking for replacement

Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:52 am

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 82.article

Germany approved to buy five Boeing P-8A maritime patrol aircraft

The US State Department has approved a possible Foreign Military Sale of five Boeing P-8A maritime patrol aircraft to Germany for an estimated cost of $1.77 billion.


Are there any other updates on this topic, or is this a clear sign, that Germany is going to buy the P-8A?
 
mxaxai
Topic Author
Posts: 2639
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Germany cancels P-3C modernisation; looking for replacement

Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:02 am

duboka wrote:
Are there any other updates on this topic, or is this a clear sign, that Germany is going to buy the P-8A?

This just means that the US would allow Germany to buy P-8A through the FMS program. Which is a first step for any tender that might include the P-8A.
On the German side, there's neither a decision nor an allocated budget for the P-3C replacement yet. Perhaps more relevant, there are no plans to present the expected budget to the German parliament for approval prior to the elections in September this year.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:37 pm

duboka wrote:
Are there any other updates on this topic, or is this a clear sign, that Germany is going to buy the P-8A?


It is a clear sign that Germany is indeed looking for a P-3 replacement and is beyond the white paper stage.

As for budget, they do seem to have a lot on their plate. But if the new information on the Tornado replacement thread is true, then my guess is they will prioritize this over the Tornado replacement in the short term.

There are other factor at works which will make the P-8A attractive, including 3 NATO allies and the potential of sharing basing and support costs.

From a political stand point, it would be ideal if Germany make a purchase decision before the first head of state meeting with the new US President.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
duboka
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:07 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:50 am

http://alert5.com/2020/09/08/germany-dr ... tion-list/

I didn't knew that the P-1 was dropped by Germany.

However, Germany is worried that the P-1 might not be able to obtain a military type certification within five years. This will push the operational date beyond 2025.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2491
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:54 am

It would make sense to keep the type common to the ones other operators like USN and RAF are using in Europe.
On the other hand wouldn't Japan be a great partner for FCAS?
 
mxaxai
Topic Author
Posts: 2639
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:56 am

duboka wrote:
http://alert5.com/2020/09/08/germany-drops-kawasaki-p-1-from-selection-list/

I didn't knew that the P-1 was dropped by Germany.

However, Germany is worried that the P-1 might not be able to obtain a military type certification within five years. This will push the operational date beyond 2025.

This parliamentary inquiry was published in September last year but didn't find much media reception: https://dip21.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/19/227/1922788.pdf [German]

Translated excerpt:
Q from members of parliament:
To what extent did the German government consider the possibility of procuring new maritime patrol aircraft before the [rewinging] project began or during the project?
a)Did the Federal Government consider the procurement of Boeing P-8 maritime patrol aircraft, comparable to the efforts of other NATO member states, and if so, why, or why not?
b) - e) ... of Kawasaki P-1 / C-295 MPA / RAS 72 / a new domestic development ...

A from the ministry of defence:
The procurement of new systems was examined before the start of the project as part of a study. Subsequently, an economic feasibility study in conjunction with the overall planning assessment identified and adopted the solution approach of rewing as the one with the fewest operational constraints. In the course of the early termination of the [rewinging] project, work began on various options for closing the capability gap caused by the decommissioning of the P 3C Orion weapon system, probably from 2025 until the realization of the Franco-German Maritime Airborne Warfare System (MAWS) development project in 2032 at the earliest.

These are currently being evaluated as part of an economic feasibility study. With the exception of an excluded domestic development and the Japanese Kawasaki P-1, the three listed systems P-8A Poseidon, RAS 72 and C-295 MPA are also being considered, since they are generally assessed as suitable for maintaining anti-submarine warfare and maritime reconnaissance capabilities. Dependencies on the MAWS are taken into account. However, a precise analysis of the suitability of individual systems will not be available until the study is completed.

The Kawasaki P-1 option entails considerable time and legal risks due to the lack of cooperation with Japan to date, so this option was not considered further as an interim solution.

It sounds a bit silly to not work with Japan because you have no experience working with Japan.

Though I suppose certification in Germany does have the potential for delays, depending on how similar the requirements are in Japan. Presumably, it would receive a military certification in both Japan and Germany, which do differ from civilian regulations and are, generally, less standardized internationally (though there has been a push to harmonise them within the EU and with the civilian EASA regulations).
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:22 pm

It also make sense if Germany is buying the P-8A as an interim solution to bridge the gap to the A320 MMA.

If and when the A320 MMA deploys, Germany can more easily off-load the P-8A to other NATO allies.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1798
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:12 pm

bikerthai wrote:
It also make sense if Germany is buying the P-8A as an interim solution to bridge the gap to the A320 MMA.

If and when the A320 MMA deploys, Germany can more easily off-load the P-8A to other NATO allies.

bt


LOL, maybe if they are adequately maintained!
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:22 pm

texl1649 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
It also make sense if Germany is buying the P-8A as an interim solution to bridge the gap to the A320 MMA.

If and when the A320 MMA deploys, Germany can more easily off-load the P-8A to other NATO allies.

bt


LOL, maybe if they are adequately maintained!


Would it give them any incentive if they subcontract the RAAF for the maintenance? Throw in a Vacation on the Gold Coast will assure those planes will get the maintenance they deserve. :idea:
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
vr773
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:10 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:02 pm

France confirmed today that they are offering Germany to lease 4 ATL2 ASW/MPA from them until MAWS is operational. This is to prevent the purchase of 5 P-8A from the US and to increase German-Franco cooperation.

https://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/la-france-propose-de-preter-quatre-atlantique-2-lallemagne-0
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:26 pm

vr773 wrote:
France confirmed today that they are offering Germany to lease 4 ATL2 ASW/MPA from them until MAWS is operational. This is to prevent the purchase of 5 P-8A from the US and to increase German-Franco cooperation.

https://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/la-france-propose-de-preter-quatre-atlantique-2-lallemagne-0


Smart move.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
889091
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: Germany cancels P-3C modernisation; looking for replacement

Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:56 pm

mxaxai wrote:
duboka wrote:
Are there any other updates on this topic, or is this a clear sign, that Germany is going to buy the P-8A?

This just means that the US would allow Germany to buy P-8A through the FMS program. Which is a first step for any tender that might include the P-8A.
On the German side, there's neither a decision nor an allocated budget for the P-3C replacement yet. Perhaps more relevant, there are no plans to present the expected budget to the German parliament for approval prior to the elections in September this year.


If it does go down the path of RFT, let's hope that they (Germany) dots its I's and crosses their T's and does not repeat the debacle with their Heavy Lift Helicopter RFT..
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:45 pm

Did the German Heavy Lift program ever got through FMS approval?

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
mxaxai
Topic Author
Posts: 2639
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:05 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Did the German Heavy Lift program ever got through FMS approval?

bt

No, it was planned to proceed without FMS. The German government wanted to negotiate directly with Boeing / LM.
 
744SPX
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:27 pm

bikerthai wrote:
vr773 wrote:
France confirmed today that they are offering Germany to lease 4 ATL2 ASW/MPA from them until MAWS is operational. This is to prevent the purchase of 5 P-8A from the US and to increase German-Franco cooperation.

https://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/la-france-propose-de-preter-quatre-atlantique-2-lallemagne-0


Smart move.

bt


Yes.
What are the chances of Germany going this route over the P-8?
ATL2 will certainly be a lot more cost effective as a bridge to MAWS.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:06 pm

This brings to mind the phrase:

"A bird in hand . . .two in the bush"

Really, for $1.7 bil, you get 5 top notch frames (plus the bells and whistles) now. How much are they going to pay just for their share of development cost alone for 5 A320 frames in the future?

If its a make work project, then its a no-brainer. But from a pure cost/risk stand point it is not so clearcut.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10296
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:54 pm

It is a tender that won´t survive the coming elections anyway. After that the best they will get is some basic MPA.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2491
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:14 am

They should develop some modular maritime patrol kit for the A400M as they have too many frames ordered. They could even drop stuff from the back.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1798
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:53 am

744SPX wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
vr773 wrote:
France confirmed today that they are offering Germany to lease 4 ATL2 ASW/MPA from them until MAWS is operational. This is to prevent the purchase of 5 P-8A from the US and to increase German-Franco cooperation.

https://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/la-france-propose-de-preter-quatre-atlantique-2-lallemagne-0


Smart move.

bt


Yes.
What are the chances of Germany going this route over the P-8?
ATL2 will certainly be a lot more cost effective as a bridge to MAWS.


There is no telling. Ironically, 30+ years ago when (originally West) Germany was replacing their original Atlantics, the procurement drew out and they had to do a service life extension on them, before getting their used P-3’s ultimately. Now to borrow/rent some ATL2’s to replace the worn out P-3’s would sort of be a step backward I guess, but whatever (and the operating costs to make that transition to ATL2 for a ‘short period’ probably are not insignificant).

As with all German procurements, I expect this decision not to be timely made as another poster has indicated, and who knows when they will finally get the budgeting/approval to buy new aircraft or take any real/substantive action.
 
columba
Posts: 5265
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 04, 2021 8:00 am

According to German Media the Navy will get 5 P8 Poseidon aircraft a decision will be made within the next weeks before the fall election.
Air Berlin - gone but not forgotten
 
mxaxai
Topic Author
Posts: 2639
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 04, 2021 9:31 am

After excluding the ATR-72 and C-295 for being not capable enough (yet), the P-3 and Atlantique 2 for being too old, and the P-1 for being too risky, there are few other options left.
Reason why the C-295 was excluded:
The degree of fulfillment of the operational requirements of the C-295 MPA weapon system from Airbus Defence and Space Spain, which is still being developed, is far lower than that of the P-3C ORION in terms of range, flight duration, the required speed profile and armament. Considering temporary use for an interim period, the degree of fulfillment would be sufficient in principle for Germany, but not available in time to avoid a temporary capability gap.
The C-295 MSA weapon system, on the other hand, is unsuitable due to its lack of a self-protection system and non-integrated military equipment.


The required capabilities of Boeing's P-8A POSEIDON weapon system are basically the same as those of the P-3C ORION. Only the P-8A POSEIDON weapon system could ensure a seamless and timely capability transition if a Foreign Military Sales contract is concluded before the summer break in 2021.

https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/286/1928697.pdf [German]
It also notes that only 2 P-3C are expected to remain operational in 2023. I suspect that the fear of losing the upcoming elections in September may accelerate a few decisions.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 04, 2021 1:16 pm

So the capability gap is driving this buy as well, similar to the UK.

Some similar comments from "experts":

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -p-3c-mpa/

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14424
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 04, 2021 3:32 pm

I think the Germans have little real choices. The props on offer don't provide the endurance, capabilities for Atlantic ASW kind of missions. But to be honest, neither do the P8 or a A320 based MPA. Not to the level the Atlantique, Orion can do.

The 737 and A320 are excellent at doing 2-3 hour flights at M.8, 40k ft, 6 times a day for 25 yrs. Those are specs too far from a versatile, powerfull MPA platform to ever become real good. A 737 is a 737.

That said, for Baltic Sea, Northsea, Mediterranean kind of EU and NATO operations, a modern ATR-72, C295 MPA kind of platform would be sufficient and would efficiently close a big part of the gab. There, the P-3C was over kill, expensive, like they were for the Dutch MLD before.

The Germans are very willing to invest in a European long range MPA solution, but it simply doesn't exist in time. Same for the French and other NATO nations. Euro industry was told long ago, but apparently they couldn't close the business case or became lazy, believing they would get the work anyway.

Image
souce: viewtopic.php?t=1450275
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 04, 2021 4:33 pm

keesje wrote:
The 737 and A320 are excellent at doing 2-3 hour flights at M.8, 40k ft, 6 times a day for 25 yrs.


The 737 and A320 are also excellent at 5-6 hrs 2-3 times a day as they are used for US transcontinental and US West Coast to Hawaii.


bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 04, 2021 4:51 pm

keesje wrote:
Mediterranean kind of EU and NATO operations,


For migrant patrol, the P-8 would be overkill.

But consider current US P-8 operations.

They fly from Italy to the coast of Syria or to Crimea. Typical flight time is 2-3 hrs there, do their snooping, then 2-3 hrs back. That's 5-6 hrs transition time for a jet with probably 8hrs total flight time.

How much longer would the flight time be on a turboprop? Sure you have great loiter time, but how much actual work are you doing with the extended flight time?

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14424
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 04, 2021 5:52 pm

bikerthai wrote:
keesje wrote:
Mediterranean kind of EU and NATO operations,


For migrant patrol, the P-8 would be overkill.

But consider current US P-8 operations.

They fly from Italy to the coast of Syria or to Crimea. Typical flight time is 2-3 hrs there, do their snooping, then 2-3 hrs back. That's 5-6 hrs transition time for a jet with probably 8hrs total flight time.

How much longer would the flight time be on a turboprop? Sure you have great loiter time, but how much actual work are you doing with the extended flight time?

bt


The German P-3C's can hang out for 10 hours, 3 hours from home. The smaller derivative MPA twin props, P-8, A320 (even XLR) are limited in that respect. Endurance is important for a patrolling, monitoring, transmitting (all the time), waiting, early warning, supporting, searching aircraft. For US congress, Boeing, the ANG, the P-8 requiring tankers to stay aloft as long as a P3 is a "helpfull" thing $$. In reality the USN also had little choice when the P-3C's started wearing out.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:22 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 04, 2021 6:01 pm

The best justification for a P-8 for the Marine will be the piggybacking off US/UK/other user doctrine/training/material/facilities even if it’s not a complete fit for their current ops. In reality, one thing about MPA has been its flexibility since 1960.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 04, 2021 7:25 pm

keesje wrote:
3 hours from home.


3 hrs from home is for a P-8 is farther out than a P-3.

Yes, the P-3 has loiter advantage, but the farther out you go, the P-8 speed overtake the P-3 in actual time on station. At some distance the P-3 10hr flight time will yield the same time on station as the P--8A 8hr flight time.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 04, 2021 7:28 pm

acecrackshot wrote:
US/UK/other user doctrine/training


If Germany do get the P-8A. Training for their crew can start immediately!

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 04, 2021 8:30 pm

Keesje,

Good chart. The 18 and 20 hrs endurance are impressive. Seems to me though having that endurance that may be used maybe once or twice in ten years may be another form of overdesigning.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14424
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 05, 2021 10:08 am

bikerthai wrote:
Keesje,

Good chart. The 18 and 20 hrs endurance are impressive. Seems to me though having that endurance that may be used maybe once or twice in ten years may be another form of overdesigning.

bt


Not when I was there (early nineties). We did lots of missions 2-3 hours from home. Transits at 400 kts medium level (an Orion isn't slow), cruising 200 kts at low level. From KEF and CUR too. If you are e.g. cruising the Mediterranean for smugglers, refugees that's not a high speed hit and run from 10k ft. Where did you get twice in a decade feedback?

If an expensive MPA is in the air, you want to make training hours, get the max out of the cycle. Many short flights is hugely inefficient and expensive. An mPa needs to be present, gathering/ transferring areal intelligence, supporting, anticipating. Not show up & be gone before you know.

Navies loved the P3's endurance. Now they have no choice & (have to) deal with it. The Orion21 while looking good, never was a serious option because the supply chains / production lines for P3's had evaporated and new aircraft aren't build like they were build 50 years earlier (blueprints & craftsmanship). So it would have become a risky clean sheet program anyway.

I hope an optimized MPA will be build. In the table above I reference a C-500 concept, powered by TP400's and an APTU (for continued take-off after an engine failure at V1 with 25t of fuel).
Image
source: keesje
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 05, 2021 12:38 pm

keesje wrote:
Not when I was there (early nineties). We did lots of missions 2-3 hours from home. Transits at 400 kts medium level (an Orion isn't slow), cruising 200 kts at low level. From KEF and CUR too. If you are e.g. cruising the Mediterranean for smugglers, refugees that's not a high speed hit and run from 10k ft. Where did you get twice in a decade feedback?


I agree with you, finding smugglers, refugees, and patrolling shipping lanes are poor use for a high end MPA. It would also be poor use even for a P-3. Those mission can be done cheaper with an UAV that has great endurance. That is why I propose if you want endurance beyond 8-10 hrs, go with a drone.

Twice a decade number was extrapolated from what I've read from the RAAF E-7 experience. Of the years they gave been operating the Wedgetail, I've only heard about one incident when they had to do a double shift and needed arial refueling (can't recall if it was Afganistan or Iraq). There could be more, but with the E-7 fleet size, it sounds reasonable.

For everyday patrol, you don't need the 18 hrs flight time. That would be too much for the crew.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 05, 2021 12:45 pm

Having 18 hrs endurance is not a panacea. It is a tradeoff between weight of extra tankage versus weight of the areal refueling plumbing. Either way, you are carrying extra capacity you would rarely used. It should be placed lower criteria list for an MPA.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 05, 2021 12:48 pm

keesje wrote:
In reality the USN also had little choice when the P-3C's started wearing out.


Seems like a common theme for both UK and Germany.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
mxaxai
Topic Author
Posts: 2639
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 05, 2021 1:21 pm

bikerthai wrote:
For everyday patrol, you don't need the 18 hrs flight time. That would be too much for the crew.

bt

The P-3C in operation Atalanta off Somalia flew missions up to 14h, I was told. They also said that such missions were very taxing on the crew, very difficult to stay focused towards the end of the flight. An average mission would usually be scheduled shorter to give the crews enough time to rest between flights.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14424
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 05, 2021 1:56 pm

mxaxai wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
For everyday patrol, you don't need the 18 hrs flight time. That would be too much for the crew.

bt

The P-3C in operation Atalanta off Somalia flew missions up to 14h, I was told. They also said that such missions were very taxing on the crew, very difficult to stay focused towards the end of the flight. An average mission would usually be scheduled shorter to give the crews enough time to rest between flights.


A long mission would require higher comfort work and resting places. In the C-500 concept I placed the working station in front of the engines, with a noise barrier. The seats have serious recline and can be covered for crew to have serious resting periods. The aircraft has a galley and a large auxiliary / relax space in the back, an oversized bathroom to refresh, redress. A second flight crew for doing shifts would be required for long flights. Although autopilot / ground control can do a lot too these days. Flying patterns has been automated already.

So nothing like the functional seats plotters, operators on the Orion have to spend a day on in a noisy cabin, fifties toilet etc. A future aircraft would be required to meet todays working conditions and functional requirements. A good working environment would be a requirement for long flights.

Image
source: keesje
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 05, 2021 3:14 pm

keesje wrote:
nothing like the functional seats plotters, operators on the Orion have to spend a day on in a noisy cabin, fifties toilet etc. A future aircraft would be required to meet todays working conditions and functional requirements


Not sure what the P-1 has but both E-7 and P-8 has two lay flat seats for crew rest and standard commercial like galley and lav.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10296
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 05, 2021 3:37 pm

The P-8 will bring brownie points with the US administration so it will be bought, even though a European solution would be in the interest of the taxpayer and would fill the needs much better.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 05, 2021 4:15 pm

seahawk wrote:
European solution would be in the interest of the taxpayer and would fill the needs much better.


The European solution, A320 MPA, is still on the table. The Atlantique has too much risk. The P-8A will also pressure the the French to commit to on time delivery of the MPA.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:22 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 05, 2021 7:35 pm

The thing about MPA is that the mission is rarely "go do this one thing," unless its a cued ASW or overland ISR mission. Most of the time, there are lots of different missions decked onto a MPA so its a little unrealistic to say that any given mission the level of extreme endurance is unreasonable. Sometimes, the MPA either allows more flexibility than a UAV or allows other assets like surface vessels to be more flexible. Specifically, how the USN used its P-3s in the overland ISR mission really enabled other assets. I could see how the Germans or other NATO allies saw this capability firsthand and how it makes a P-8 far more interesting than a coastal patrol optimized MPA asset like a short ranged, limited payload ATR derivative. Sure, you won't use every capability every day...no one is going out every day full of gas with a massive warload. However, the ability to be flexible between the two requirements along with having plenty of room for stuff like comms and sensors is where MPA aircraft have shined for 30 years, even longer.

Further, taking today's mission set and optimizing your future procurement to that is a recipe for sub-optimum performance across the board, even when that system operates really well.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 05, 2021 8:06 pm

acecrackshot wrote:
little unrealistic to say that any given mission the level of extreme endurance is unreasonable.


No argument from me on the multi part of multi mission.

And yes, extreme mission is a possibility that must be considered. However how you achieve that extended mission, whether to have extra fuel capacity or have AAR capability, is something we can debate.

Engineering wise, to be able to fly 20 hrs would mean you are carrying extra structure weight in order carry the weight of the extra fuel. How much of this weight is balanced out by not having the AAR plumbing? Only the trade study folks knows.

From my my knot hole, having the ability to fly 20 hrs without refueling doesn't seem like an asset over AAR.

bt
Last edited by bikerthai on Wed May 05, 2021 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Noray
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 05, 2021 8:08 pm

seahawk wrote:
The P-8 will bring brownie points with the US administration so it will be bought, even though a European solution would be in the interest of the taxpayer and would fill the needs much better.

First of all it's a decision in favour of the German Navy, who, after many years with decrepit airframes, poor availability and dwindling ability to fulfill its tasks, should receive something that actually works. Which is important for recruitment as well.

It's also a decision against Airbus, who botched the overhaul of the P-3C and were not to be rewarded with a follow-up procurement.

It remains to be seen what this means for the MAWS. It will need to be a lot better than the P-8.
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:22 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 05, 2021 8:42 pm

bikerthai wrote:
seahawk wrote:
European solution would be in the interest of the taxpayer and would fill the needs much better.


The European solution, A320 MPA, is still on the table. The Atlantique has too much risk. The P-8A will also pressure the the French to commit to on time delivery of the MPA.

bt


While I'd love to see a A320 MPA (and honestly, were I European, build a COMPASS CALL/RIVET JOINT analog) I think the chances of this are up there with recommissioning the Concorde.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10296
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 06, 2021 5:22 am

bikerthai wrote:
seahawk wrote:
European solution would be in the interest of the taxpayer and would fill the needs much better.


The European solution, A320 MPA, is still on the table. The Atlantique has too much risk. The P-8A will also pressure the the French to commit to on time delivery of the MPA.

bt


That is why the stop-gap solution should be cheap. I think converted ATRs with a strong focus on environmental protection duties would be the way to go. Germany needs an asset that is cheap to operate and suitable for helping refugees and controlling environmental protection laws. Those are the important tasks, not some Cold War revival. But I am positive that the procurement will be held up until Mrs. Baerbock is in power and then this will not happen, as the Greens will shrink the armed forces and reduce the spending on the defence.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3968
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 06, 2021 12:14 pm

seahawk wrote:
Germany needs an asset that is cheap to operate and suitable for helping refugees and controlling environmental protection laws.


Is NATO responsible for refuge patrol? Have Germany P-3 been patrolling the Mediterranean?

I understand the sentiment. But there is cheap, and there is value for the price. And the risk of going cheap this time is the potential of falling in to a money pit while still not filling that capability gap.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:22 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 12:56 am

bikerthai wrote:
But there is cheap, and there is value for the price. And the risk of going cheap this time is the potential of falling in to a money pit while still not filling that capability gap.

bt


That sums up a number of Euro defense procurement programs advocated by European defense civilian mandarins with no skin in the game.
 
columba
Posts: 5265
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 9:08 am

seahawk wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
seahawk wrote:
European solution would be in the interest of the taxpayer and would fill the needs much better.


The European solution, A320 MPA, is still on the table. The Atlantique has too much risk. The P-8A will also pressure the the French to commit to on time delivery of the MPA.

bt


That is why the stop-gap solution should be cheap. I think converted ATRs with a strong focus on environmental protection duties would be the way to go. Germany needs an asset that is cheap to operate and suitable for helping refugees and controlling environmental protection laws. Those are the important tasks, not some Cold War revival. But I am positive that the procurement will be held up until Mrs. Baerbock is in power and then this will not happen, as the Greens will shrink the armed forces and reduce the spending on the defence.


For that the Do 228 would be enough P3 and P8 are needed for a different task......
Air Berlin - gone but not forgotten
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10296
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 9:31 am

I would be fine with Do228.
 
mxaxai
Topic Author
Posts: 2639
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Germany Future MPA Aircraft News and Discussion Thread

Mon May 10, 2021 10:38 am

bikerthai wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Germany needs an asset that is cheap to operate and suitable for helping refugees and controlling environmental protection laws.


Is NATO responsible for refuge patrol? Have Germany P-3 been patrolling the Mediterranean?
bt

Yes, for example NATO ships and, independently, German and Portuguese P-3C for refugee / border surveillance.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aaron747 and 10 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos