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aschachter
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Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:40 am

I have found a number of sources showing Greece getting 18 Rafales.

10 will be Ex-French Air Force (Free Transfer) and 10 will be brand new of the F3-R Variant.

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php ... 6&p=443906
https://staging.taktikz.com/greece-gett ... om-france/
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2020/08/3 ... hter-jets/
 
mxaxai
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:36 pm

That's quite a surprise. I wonder if this is in any way connected to France's recent support of Greece regarding Turkish influence and exploration in the meditteranean. If 8 jets are actually 'free', what does France expect in return? How is Greece going to integrate these into their large F-16 fleet?
 
VSMUT
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:00 pm

mxaxai wrote:
How is Greece going to integrate these into their large F-16 fleet?


Presumably the same way they integrated the F-16 into the large Mirage 2000 fleet.
 
texl1649
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:27 pm

Quite interesting. I think the Rafales are generally expensive to operate/maintain, but certainly Greece has been under a lot of pressure and diversifying their F-16 fleet might make sense to them.
 
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keesje
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:42 pm

The Rafales have fully developped multimode AESA radar and processing systems, are combat proven and include lessons learned.

Rafales have been modernized for attack roles effectively, mainly because of it's single user over a decade. Avoiding cripling delays, costs and loose-loose political compromises (Eurofighter, NH90).

I assume the Rafales for Greece have been discussed with Merkel & Boris and are a signal to Erdogan.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Ozair
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:38 pm

aschachter wrote:
I have found a number of sources showing Greece getting 18 Rafales.

10 will be Ex-French Air Force (Free Transfer) and 10 will be brand new of the F3-R Variant.

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php ... 6&p=443906
https://staging.taktikz.com/greece-gett ... om-france/
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2020/08/3 ... hter-jets/

Certainly an interesting decision and not necessarily a bad one. Could be the start of a decent number in service as Greece takes a few every year.

Was not expecting Greece to be the next Rafale customer…

VSMUT wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
How is Greece going to integrate these into their large F-16 fleet?


Presumably the same way they integrated the F-16 into the large Mirage 2000 fleet.

A strange claim given the Mirage 2000 was ordered the same month as the F-16 and while Greece operated Mirage F-1s they were always outnumbered by other aircraft such as the A-7.

texl1649 wrote:
Quite interesting. I think the Rafales are generally expensive to operate/maintain, but certainly Greece has been under a lot of pressure and diversifying their F-16 fleet might make sense to them.

Probably a similar cost to operate as their older Mirage 2000s but the more interesting question is what will this prompt Turkey to do? I could see Turkey attempting to acquire the Eurofighter now to maintain their capability and subsequently fast track their TF-X program.

keesje wrote:
The Rafales have fully developped multimode AESA radar and processing systems, are combat proven and include lessons learned.

Well a half-baked AESA integration but an AESA none the less.

keesje wrote:
Rafales have been modernized for attack roles effectively, mainly because of it's single user over a decade. Avoiding cripling delays, costs and loose-loose political compromises (Eurofighter, NH90).

I assume the Rafales for Greece have been discussed with Merkel & Boris and are a signal to Erdogan.

Ha why would France talk to Germany and the UK about selling Rafales? A better sign to Erdogan would be to cut off parts for the A400M and thereby stop Turkey running guns down to Libya with the aircraft…
 
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keesje
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:54 am

Ozair wrote:

keesje wrote:
The Rafales have fully developped multimode AESA radar and processing systems, are combat proven and include lessons learned.

Well a half-baked AESA integration but an AESA none the less.


Totally contrary to what I heard from pilots and analysts. What is your source?
https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-tes ... 47.article
https://www.defesanet.com.br/rafale/not ... fference-/

Ozair wrote:
keesje wrote:
Rafales have been modernized for attack roles effectively, mainly because of it's single user over a decade. Avoiding cripling delays, costs and loose-loose political compromises (Eurofighter, NH90).

I assume the Rafales for Greece have been discussed with Merkel & Boris and are a signal to Erdogan.


.. I could see Turkey attempting to acquire the Eurofighter now to maintain their capability and subsequently fast track their TF-X program.
.. Ha why would France talk to Germany and the UK about selling Rafales? A better sign to Erdogan would be to cut off parts for the A400M and thereby stop Turkey running guns down to Libya with the aircraft…


It seems you are not fully aware of French-German-Turkish relations at this stage, otherwise you wouldn't even suggest this. Turkey is kicked out of JSF, boughts S-400s. Millions of of turks live in Germany & political interference is always there. Germany is a kind of buffer between Erdogan and the ROW. The moderate German French leaderships have been aligning ever more closely, "helped" by Trump and Brexit.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
mxaxai
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:22 am

Ozair wrote:
Ha why would France talk to Germany and the UK about selling Rafales? A better sign to Erdogan would be to cut off parts for the A400M and thereby stop Turkey running guns down to Libya with the aircraft…

German companies have been criticized for supplying A400M parts to Turkey. The problem is that the contract is not between the individual countries or companies and Turkey, but with OCCAR in between. That makes it much more difficult for any single country to impose sanctions, a smart move by Turkey. Breaking the contracts, or renegotiating them, would require agreement among all other OCCAR / A400M program partners - unlike the F-35 where the USA can decide unilaterally.
 
Noray
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:30 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Ha why would France talk to Germany and the UK about selling Rafales? A better sign to Erdogan would be to cut off parts for the A400M and thereby stop Turkey running guns down to Libya with the aircraft…

German companies have been criticized for supplying A400M parts to Turkey. The problem is that the contract is not between the individual countries or companies and Turkey, but with OCCAR in between. That makes it much more difficult for any single country to impose sanctions, a smart move by Turkey. Breaking the contracts, or renegotiating them, would require agreement among all other OCCAR / A400M program partners - unlike the F-35 where the USA can decide unilaterally.

Turkey isn't just a customer, but a partner in the A400M program. They have developed and they produce various essential parts that can't be easily transferred to another production line.

This is not the only reason why it's stupid to criticize Germany for Turkish A400M flights. Those critics also "forget" that Turkish A400Ms usually approach Libya in pairs with US-built C-130s.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:51 pm

Noray wrote:
Turkey isn't just a customer, but a partner in the A400M program. They have developed and they produce various essential parts that can't be easily transferred to another production line.
Honestly, they could. At the current low rates, plants in Germany, Spain and France have more than enough capacity to take over those workpackages.
Noray wrote:
This is not the only reason why it's stupid to criticize Germany for Turkish A400M flights. Those critics also "forget" that Turkish A400Ms usually approach Libya in pairs with US-built C-130s.
Exactly. And they're protected by US-built F-16.

Germany and Turkey were on relatively good terms for many years when it came to arms sales. Turkey has bought numerous ships, submarines, tanks and missiles from Germany. This, along with their closer alignment with the EU, allowed them to become a partner on the A400M program.

However, the recent change in Erdogan's politics has led many to ask why an "ally" is being supplied advanced weaponry while they use this equipment to go against the interests of NATO, the EU and Germany. The US can easily shut off Turkey but the EU with its many different governments is not as fast. Other countries either don't care what their customers use the weapons for, or have no interest in the areas surrounding Turkey.

I'm sure Greece is happy that France values them higher than Turkey, and with the current situation I don't expect anybody within the EU to close any new deals with Turkey. Neither country is in a position to afford large numbers of anything new, though. Which makes the 'free' Rafales extra attractive for Greece.
 
Noray
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:12 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Honestly, they could. At the current low rates, plants in Germany, Spain and France have more than enough capacity to take over those workpackages.

It's not just about work hours. Intellectual property (parts developped by Turkey), work experience and contracts should play a role as well.
 
Ozair
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:14 pm

keesje wrote:
Totally contrary to what I heard from pilots and analysts. What is your source?
https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-tes ... 47.article
https://www.defesanet.com.br/rafale/not ... fference-/

The half baked AESA integration is evident from the following,
Converting a Rafale to the new radar is reportedly very easy: it takes less than two hours to remove the PESA and to ‘plug and play’ the AESA antenna. The RBE 2 AESA is the same weight as the baseline radar and uses the same interface. Sixty RBE 2 AESA were ordered for Batch 4 Rafales; there are currently no plans to reequip the rest of the air force and navy fleet.

https://hushkit.net/2016/04/24/top-ten-fighter-radars/

And an older article here with the Rafale Blog,
So, yes, any Rafale can receive the new array, without new hardware/software.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2012/10/ ... -news.html

It is a half baked integration when you can swap a PESA to an AESA and back again. It was a design intent given the limited budget the French have to upgrade older Rafales. What that type of integration means is an inability to utilise the full power capabilities of the AESA due to a lack of additional cooling. It means they are running the same software for both AESA and PESA. It means they are running the AESA as PD when a fighter AESA should be running FMCW.

Additionally the Rafale AESA and integration for Meteor doesn’t utilise the two way data-link available compared to the AESA radars on the Eurofighter and the Gripen.


keesje wrote:
It seems you are not fully aware of French-German-Turkish relations at this stage, otherwise you wouldn't even suggest this. Turkey is kicked out of JSF, boughts S-400s. Millions of of turks live in Germany & political interference is always there. Germany is a kind of buffer between Erdogan and the ROW. The moderate German French leaderships have been aligning ever more closely, "helped" by Trump and Brexit.

Well aware keesje but the Greek acquisition of the Rafale has little to do with immediate pressure on Turkey. It will be years before aircrew/aintainers are sufficiently trained and these aircraft are in Greek service. Additionally I stand by my point that France would not have consulted either Germany or the UK about selling rafales to Greece, the suggestion remains absurd! Had they done so the respective Eurofighter partner would have immediately shipped salesmen to counter the offer. Neither Germany or the UK are interested in furthering French Rafale sales and would much rather see those go to Eurofighters. Greece was offered a good deal on used aircraft and they took it which makes good economic sense.
 
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keesje
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:09 pm

Ozair wrote:
keesje wrote:
Totally contrary to what I heard from pilots and analysts. What is your source?
https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-tes ... 47.article
https://www.defesanet.com.br/rafale/not ... fference-/

The half baked AESA integration is evident from the following,
Converting a Rafale to the new radar is reportedly very easy: it takes less than two hours to remove the PESA and to ‘plug and play’ the AESA antenna. The RBE 2 AESA is the same weight as the baseline radar and uses the same interface. Sixty RBE 2 AESA were ordered for Batch 4 Rafales; there are currently no plans to reequip the rest of the air force and navy fleet.

https://hushkit.net/2016/04/24/top-ten-fighter-radars/

And an older article here with the Rafale Blog,
So, yes, any Rafale can receive the new array, without new hardware/software.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2012/10/ ... -news.html

It is a half baked integration when you can swap a PESA to an AESA and back again. It was a design intent given the limited budget the French have to upgrade older Rafales. What that type of integration means is an inability to utilise the full power capabilities of the AESA due to a lack of additional cooling. It means they are running the same software for both AESA and PESA. It means they are running the AESA as PD when a fighter AESA should be running FMCW.

Additionally the Rafale AESA and integration for Meteor doesn’t utilise the two way data-link available compared to the AESA radars on the Eurofighter and the Gripen.


It took a lot of time & effort to show you're off. (Eurofighter & Gripen don't have AESA radars). The CAPTOR upgrade is overdue, delayed, expensive & the Luftwaffe, after years of patience,took their own responsibility (Spain following) https://www.aviationtoday.com/2020/06/2 ... a-upgrade/ . The RBE2, is proven, fully integrated and mature. Because it wasn't handicapped as a multi national program with the Brits, Italians fighting for their own interests. The RBE2 is now smoothly upgraded (is that a bad thing or consistent modular design ??) while Eurofighter pilots watch in frustration. Also the optronics / Spectra Systems, Air Ground capabilities and two man cockpit integration look favorable. Denied forever by supporters of national champions (Eurofighter). Specs & open competitions don't lie.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
tomcat
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:31 pm

This coincides with the announcement by the French Defense Minister that France could bring forward their next order for 30 Rafales. In the current procurement planning this order is scheduled for 2023. The new schedule would be defined in order to better support Dassault and avoiding them a too low production rate in the coming years. I don't know whether both events are connected or not or if the to be confirmed Greek order would invalidate this announcement.

Here is a French article about it:
https://www.ouest-france.fr/economie/entreprises/dassault/dassault-le-gouvernement-pourrait-revoir-le-calendrier-de-commandes-de-30-rafale-6953008
 
tomcat
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:39 pm

Just a thought about the Greek fighters fleet: they still operate 33 modernised (equipped with an APG-65 radar) F-4E as well as 16 Mirage 2000EG and 24 M2000-5. The used F1/F2 Rafales would be suitable to replace the M2000EG. Later on, the M2000-5 could be replaced with F-3 Rafales. Greece has quite a significant inventory of French A2A (Mica and Magic-2) and A2S/A2G missiles (Exocet and Scalp-EG) so it would make sense to keep French fighters in their fleet going forward.
 
Ozair
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:15 pm

keesje wrote:

It took a lot of time & effort to show you're off. (Eurofighter & Gripen don't have AESA radars).

LOL, sorry that you had to take a lot of time and effort … only problem is you missed the point completely.

The point of referencing the AESAs on the Eurofighter and Gripen was to demonstrate that those AESA programs will continue forward with the two way Meteor datalink. The current mechanically scanning radars on the Eurofighter and Gripen both already have the two way data-link with the Meteor missile while the Rafale doesn’t with their PESA radar.

You would think, given the Meteor two way data-link have been known about for 12+ years, that the French would make that a requirement for their move to an AESA radar in the Rafale, except they didn’t. So the end result is that the Gripen and Rafale today cannot use the full range advantage of the Meteor because of their smaller radars, the Eurofighter can to a better extent. Once AESA arrives for Eurofighter and Gripen both will be able to combine the advantages of Meteor’s long range and two way data-link with their longer range AESA radars while the Rafale, with a sub-optimal (half Baked) integration of their AESA, will not be able to take full advantage of the missile’s capabilities…

Do you get it now?

keesje wrote:

The CAPTOR upgrade is overdue, delayed, expensive & the Luftwaffe, after years of patience,took their own responsibility (Spain following) https://www.aviationtoday.com/2020/06/2 ... a-upgrade/ . The RBE2, is proven, fully integrated and mature. Because it wasn't handicapped as a multi national program with the Brits, Italians fighting for their own interests. The RBE2 is now smoothly upgraded (is that a bad thing or consistent modular design ??) while Eurofighter pilots watch in frustration.

Keesje I was the first person to post that article on Airliners, I am well aware of the progress of the CAPTOR-E. Incidentally Kuwait should get theirs sometime soon with their first Eurofighter delivery. Rafale having a smooth upgrade to AESA is a good example only in that they took the easy route. That is fine, it works for the French Air Force based on their requirements for the radar but that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have pushed a more aggressive and capable integration that would have delivered more to the user.

keesje wrote:

Also the optronics / Spectra Systems, Air Ground capabilities and two man cockpit integration look favorable. Denied forever by supporters of national champions (Eurofighter). Specs & open competitions don't lie.

Strange claims Keesje, the Rafale is no better than the Eurofighter in almost all areas, the two aircraft are very similar in capability. Both have two man cockpit options, A2G capabilities, optronics, EW. French Rafales still lack a HMS which the Eurofighter has had for years and which every Rafale export customer has demanded… (You should thank Qatar for paying for that integration).

The Eurofighter also has more export orders than the Rafale…
 
Pavlakakos
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:15 am

mxaxai wrote:
That's quite a surprise. I wonder if this is in any way connected to France's recent support of Greece regarding Turkish influence and exploration in the meditteranean. If 8 jets are actually 'free', what does France expect in return? How is Greece going to integrate these into their large F-16 fleet?


One theory is that not everyone disagrees with Macron's comment about "NATO being brain dead". We may see soon some significant moves in the creation of an "European Army".
Aside from that, it should be noted that Macron visited Beirut just a couple of days after the explosion and yesterday was in Baghdad. Apparently it's not just about the East Med crisis, but turkey's military presence in the entire region.
 
art
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:08 am

In the event that Greece does acquire some Rafales, would Germany be prepared to sell its Tranche 1 Typhoons to Turkey when rhey brcome available? I don't know (a) if Turkey would be interested (b) if Germany would want to supply arms to a European dictatorship (c) if Germany would want to support a country at war with a sector of its population - the Kurds.

On the last point, could Germany dictate that any Eurofighters supplied to Turkey could not be used in internal conflicts? UK-supplied Typhoons are used by Saudi Arabia in their war against the Houti faction in Yemen, a conflict that has killed many thousands.

...a brutal Saudi air campaign has bombarded Yemen, killing tens of thousands, injuring hundreds of thousands and displacing millions – creating the world’s worst humanitarian crisis. And British weapons are doing much of the killing. Every day Yemen is hit by British bombs – dropped by British planes...


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... deadly-war

Money talks, morality does not. Does that apply to Germany as well?
 
tomcat
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:54 am

art wrote:
In the event that Greece does acquire some Rafales, would Germany be prepared to sell its Tranche 1 Typhoons to Turkey when rhey brcome available? I don't know (a) if Turkey would be interested (b) if Germany would want to supply arms to a European dictatorship (c) if Germany would want to support a country at war with a sector of its population - the Kurds.

On the last point, could Germany dictate that any Eurofighters supplied to Turkey could not be used in internal conflicts? UK-supplied Typhoons are used by Saudi Arabia in their war against the Houti faction in Yemen, a conflict that has killed many thousands.

...a brutal Saudi air campaign has bombarded Yemen, killing tens of thousands, injuring hundreds of thousands and displacing millions – creating the world’s worst humanitarian crisis. And British weapons are doing much of the killing. Every day Yemen is hit by British bombs – dropped by British planes...


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... deadly-war

Money talks, morality does not. Does that apply to Germany as well?


Let's see:
https://www.dw.com/en/german-arms-exports-to-turkey-at-highest-level-since-2005/a-50866242

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-no-total-arms-export-ban-for-turkey-despite-merkels-promise/a-50898701
 
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keesje
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:46 pm

Merkel is a kind of soft spoken, doesn't grab the mic. But because of Euro export / import values, treaties, foreign investment and political support in Europe, she has some of the more muscular leadership types by the b.lls. E.g. in Turkey, Russia, Poland and Hungary. She lets them play their media games, indirectly subsidizes positive movements, doesn't openly criticize them. but if they get a call from her, asking to re-think, they feel the need to stop jumping.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Alsatian
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:29 pm

According to this article in french https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.challe ... 726898.amp the Greek prime minister announced today the deal for 18 Rafale.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:17 pm

VSMUT wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
How is Greece going to integrate these into their large F-16 fleet?


Presumably the same way they integrated the F-16 into the large Mirage 2000 fleet.

Reportedly, the deal includes upgrading ten Mirage 2000s.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 50.article

"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
tomcat
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:36 pm

Some more details on the Greek order:
In addition to the acquisition of 18 Rafales, 10 Mirage 2000s will be upgraded to the Mirage 2000-5 standard.


https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/greece-orders-18-rafale-fighters/140150.article

It also appears that the Rafales would replace the (non modernized) Mirage 2000:
Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said Greece would obtain 18 new French-made Rafale fighter planes to replace its aging Mirage 2000 fighters


https://www.france24.com/en/20200913-greece-arms-up-with-new-fighter-jets-frigates-amid-heightened-turkey-tensions

The Flightglobal article also provides a status of the Hellenic Air Force fleet:
Cirium fleets data indicates that the Hellenic air force operates 187 combat aircraft.
Of these, 40 are Mirage 2000s serving in the air-defence role, including 24 in the -5 version. The average age of the Mirage 2000 fleet is 24.3 years.
The backbone of the Greek air force are 114 Lockheed Martin F-16C/Ds, with an average age of 20.8 years.
It also has 33 McDonnell Douglas F-4E Phantoms, with an average age of 44.8 years.
Greece is upgrading 82-84 of its F-16s to the F-16V standard.


It also reminds that
In April 2019, Greek defence minister Evangelos Apostolakis said the country was considering the acquisition of up to 30 Lockheed F-35s to replace the air force’s oldest F-16s.
.

Which makes me wonder what's the plan to replace the venerable Phantoms. They surely share some genes with the unbreakable DC-9 but still, they'll need a replacement sooner rather than later. I suspect that if Greece can afford it, they will order more Rafales to replace the Phantoms. After all, a fleet limited to 18 Rafales doesn't make much sense and Greece already has a large inventory of French A2A and A2G weapons so ordering more Rafales in the future would seem logical.
 
UnMAXed
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:44 am

^^^
The data mentioned in the article are way off.
I would have expected much better than Flightglobal.
The actual numbers are as follows:

Dassault Mirage 2000 BGM&EGM____17
Dassault Mirage 2000-5 Mk2________25
F-16 block 30____________________31
F-16 block 50 &52+_______________84 (currently they are being upgraded to the Viper standard by LM)
F-16 block 52 adv________________30
F-4E Phantoms PI2000____________34

Total number of fighter jets__________231
 
tomcat
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:46 pm

UnMAXed wrote:
^^^
The data mentioned in the article are way off.
I would have expected much better than Flightglobal.
The actual numbers are as follows:

Dassault Mirage 2000 BGM&EGM____17
Dassault Mirage 2000-5 Mk2________25
F-16 block 30____________________31
F-16 block 50 &52+_______________84 (currently they are being upgraded to the Viper standard by LM)
F-16 block 52 adv________________30
F-4E Phantoms PI2000____________34

Total number of fighter jets__________231


Are all the aircraft in active duty? This could explain the discrepancy between the numbers. In the thread about Croatia MIG-21 replacement it is said that Croatia visited Greece to evaluate some F-16 put up for sale. Could it be that the F-16 block 30 are not in active service anymore? Or at least in long term storage?

For what it's worth, English Wiki has the following numbers:
Dassault Mirage 2000 BGM&EGM____16
Dassault Mirage 2000-5 Mk2________24
F-16 ___________________________153 (of which "39 D variants provide conversion training")
F-4E Phantoms PI2000____________33
(and they already list the 18 Rafales as "awaiting delivery")

So total per Wiki, excluding the Rafales: 226. I just realize now that if you subtract the 39 F-16D meant for training (although 25% of the F-16 fleet seems quite a lot for training) from 226, you get to 187 as quoted by Flightglobal. I would tend to believe that Greece indeed owns about 230 airworthy fighters of which some of them are dedicated to conversion training.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:01 am

I wonder why they wouldn't go for the F4 at this point.
 
GDB
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:30 am

Flightglobal usually divide training aircraft distinct from combat aircraft, not just dedicated trainers but twin stick fighters.
In reality of course those F-16 units probably have several two seaters in a squadron.
Recce/EW versions are listed under Special Mission, for example, the German ECR Tornados would be listed this way.

When Greece went into financial meltdown a decade ago, with massive cuts and a lot of political instability, it's odd to note that there did not seem to be any real defence cuts, witness those F-4's still flying, you'd have thought that old equipment would be have phased out then,
It's not as if we see them doing much in the way of things like the NATO Air Policing, a lot of smaller NATO AF's take their turn.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:13 am

GDB wrote:
When Greece went into financial meltdown a decade ago, with massive cuts and a lot of political instability, it's odd to note that there did not seem to be any real defence cuts, witness those F-4's still flying, you'd have thought that old equipment would be have phased out then,


That's not quite true. The A-7 and RF-4E were phased out and they have been attempting to sell off parts of their F-16 fleet. The transport fleet has been reduced, with half the C-130s and a third of the C-27Js gone.
 
art
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:14 am

GDB wrote:
When Greece went into financial meltdown a decade ago, with massive cuts and a lot of political instability, it's odd to note that there did not seem to be any real defence cuts, witness those F-4's still flying, you'd have thought that old equipment would be have phased out then,
It's not as if we see them doing much in the way of things like the NATO Air Policing, a lot of smaller NATO AF's take their turn.


Well, as I remember it, Greece was going to order 60+ Eurofighters well before the WFC emerged. Again, from my memory, Greece could not really afford to stage the 2004 Olympic Games and was strapped for cash from early in the decade.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ramme.html

Unfortunate for Eurofighter that 20 years later Greece switches to Rafale. How might Turkey respond? Not by buying Rafales, surely?
 
tomcat
Posts: 601
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:44 pm

GDB wrote:

When Greece went into financial meltdown a decade ago, with massive cuts and a lot of political instability, it's odd to note that there did not seem to be any real defence cuts, witness those F-4's still flying, you'd have thought that old equipment would be have phased out then,
It's not as if we see them doing much in the way of things like the NATO Air Policing, a lot of smaller NATO AF's take their turn.


In the last decade, the Greek military spending have been averaging 2.5% of their (declining) GDP compared to an average of about 3% of their GDP in the previous decade. Their military spending have thus dropped quite significantly.

As far as Air Policing is concerned, they are probably the most active NATO country as they are busy policing their own sky against the nearly daily intrusions of their big eastern neighbor.
 
GDB
Posts: 13783
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:57 pm

tomcat wrote:
GDB wrote:

When Greece went into financial meltdown a decade ago, with massive cuts and a lot of political instability, it's odd to note that there did not seem to be any real defence cuts, witness those F-4's still flying, you'd have thought that old equipment would be have phased out then,
It's not as if we see them doing much in the way of things like the NATO Air Policing, a lot of smaller NATO AF's take their turn.


In the last decade, the Greek military spending have been averaging 2.5% of their (declining) GDP compared to an average of about 3% of their GDP in the previous decade. Their military spending have thus dropped quite significantly.

As far as Air Policing is concerned, they are probably the most active NATO country as they are busy policing their own sky against the nearly daily intrusions of their big eastern neighbor.


I was in fairness making comparisons closer to home, as has been stated they were in financial difficulties way before 2010/11.
As for that version of 'air policing', that's just them and their old enemy, not a NATO commitment for smaller, newer nations close to Russia.
Don't remember any Greek forces involved in other NATO deployments either, just them and their ancient feud with another NATO nation.
 
tomcat
Posts: 601
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:01 pm

GDB wrote:
tomcat wrote:
GDB wrote:

When Greece went into financial meltdown a decade ago, with massive cuts and a lot of political instability, it's odd to note that there did not seem to be any real defence cuts, witness those F-4's still flying, you'd have thought that old equipment would be have phased out then,
It's not as if we see them doing much in the way of things like the NATO Air Policing, a lot of smaller NATO AF's take their turn.


In the last decade, the Greek military spending have been averaging 2.5% of their (declining) GDP compared to an average of about 3% of their GDP in the previous decade. Their military spending have thus dropped quite significantly.

As far as Air Policing is concerned, they are probably the most active NATO country as they are busy policing their own sky against the nearly daily intrusions of their big eastern neighbor.


I was in fairness making comparisons closer to home, as has been stated they were in financial difficulties way before 2010/11.
As for that version of 'air policing', that's just them and their old enemy, not a NATO commitment for smaller, newer nations close to Russia.
Don't remember any Greek forces involved in other NATO deployments either, just them and their ancient feud with another NATO nation.


About the financial difficulties of Greece: true that their financial performances have never been great since they joined the EEC in 1981 but the fiscal and economical collapse that happened since about 2010 is of unprecedented scale for this country. Also, given their sort of permanent cold war state with Turkey, military spending cuts are always considered as a last resort. There wasn't any end of cold war dividend for Greece after the collapse of the USSR.

I've just searched for Greece's involvement in air policing and found out that they participated to such missions over Montenegro and Albania. It's probably a small effort for Greece compared to deploying aircraft in the Baltic area but it's worth mentioning it.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_154999.htm
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:05 pm

VSMUT wrote:
The transport fleet has been reduced, with half the C-130s and a third of the C-27Js gone.

What happened to their other Spartans :?:

"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Ozair
Posts: 5305
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Greece Getting 18 Rafales

Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:24 pm

Not sure what to make of this report and how much truth there actually is to it. No DSCA release for this or other approvals have been publically released, adding to this being at this point a rumour and only that. Would be a coup for Greece to take F-35 airframes that were originally destined for Turkey but I’m not sure where the money is coming from to fund the F-16 upgrade, acquire Rafales noting some are second hand, and acquire F-35s. Greece’s economy isn’t exactly humming along nor does it have significant growth potential ahead.

Question is if this does go ahead how this will also fit in to the Greek Air Force going forward, perhaps replacements for older F-16s that won’t be upgraded to the V standard?


"Green Light" From Pompeo For The F-35 Go To Greece Instead Of Turkey

News is emerging of the immediate arrival and inclusion of six F-35 fighters in the arsenal of the Greek Air Force. The most important thing, however, is that six of the F-35s that “will be painted in blue and white” are the ones that were originally for Turkey.

More specifically, according to the newspaper Estia, during the recent visit of U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to Greece, the supply of 20 F-35s was discussed and agreed, six of which will be purchased in 2022 and will be delivered together with the first six Rafale fighter jets from France.

According to Estia, the U.S. is selling to Greece the F-35s ordered by Turkey with facilitations and with “Goverment to Goverment” processes.

It seems that the purchase and the recent activation of the S-400 from Ankara has turned the tables to favour Greece.

The U.S. reaction is not limited to the delivery of F-35s to Greece but also to the possibility for them to move the NATO nuclear İncirlik base in Turkey to Crete.

...

https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/10/27/p ... ce-turkey/

A potential move of NATO nuclear weapons from Turkey to Greece would also be a significant change but likely not going to happen quickly.

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