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flyingturtle
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RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:56 pm

Popular Mechanics reports that an RC-135W on a reconnaissance mission near Hainan Island and the Paracel Islands changed its ICAO Mode S identifier in-flight, disguising itself as a civilian Malaysian plane.


https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... -aircraft/
 
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Strebav8or
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:38 pm

Yes, because you can just go to the E/E bay and repin/reprogram your transponder in flight to another random number.....
The lies in this article are as blatant as the news media.
 
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keesje
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:39 pm

Noooo! We are the good guys, kill the messenger !

Image
https://twitter.com/SCS_PI/status/13032 ... 40/photo/2

Say the russian did this, say for Washington coast. Media would explode.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:33 pm

Strebav8or wrote:
Yes, because you can just go to the E/E bay and repin/reprogram your transponder in flight to another random number.....
The lies in this article are as blatant as the news media.


Hmm, true you are not repinning.

You are simply putting in some letters in the appropriate software. That works for any cheap C152 Bendix or whatever Transponder just fine.

Pretty sure the US (well, any nation) has figured that out for military application.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:16 pm

Strebav8or wrote:
Yes, because you can just go to the E/E bay and repin/reprogram your transponder in flight to another random number.....
The lies in this article are as blatant as the news media.


Who says a military plane cannot have a re-programmable transponder?

This is one of the reasons certain countries (like Switzerland) send up fighter jets to see whether the announced and approved humanitarian C-17 isn't a B-52 going straight to combat.
 
DigitalSea
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:51 pm

Perhaps they were testing China.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:40 pm

There's probably much more nuance to the story than Popular Mechanics - a hotbed of accurate investigative journalism - has confirmable access to. Nor is it as salacious as Keesje's reflexive anti-western confirmation bias. In any case, the RC wasn't trying to hide, as its flight path and altitude don't "impersonate" a civilian airliner very well; apart from being off of established commercial airways, passenger airliners generally don't fly at FL30.5 whilst due regard...

Reminds me of the conclusion-jumping in that idiotic Drive article regarding a KC-10 over Austria "impersonating" a DC-10 in 2002 because its flight plan was labeled DC-10 - conveniently ignoring the fact that every KC-10 flight since 1980 is flight planned as a DC-10 - as that would rob the story of its salaciousness.
 
johns624
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:06 am

flyingturtle wrote:
Strebav8or wrote:
Yes, because you can just go to the E/E bay and repin/reprogram your transponder in flight to another random number.....
The lies in this article are as blatant as the news media.


Who says a military plane cannot have a re-programmable transponder?

This is one of the reasons certain countries (like Switzerland) send up fighter jets to see whether the announced and approved humanitarian C-17 isn't a B-52 going straight to combat.
Not if it's a weekend... :D
 
prebennorholm
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:39 am

flyingturtle wrote:
Who says a military plane cannot have a re-programmable transponder?

This is one of the reasons certain countries (like Switzerland) send up fighter jets to see whether the announced and approved humanitarian C-17 isn't a B-52 going straight to combat.

No, not Switzerland. They may call Italy or France on the phone to have them take a look at an intruder. At least if it is after office hours. After 4 p.m. or during weekends the Swiss Air Force is in the hangar.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:35 am

American and Japanese recce planes patrol the area regularly.
As said above, they would fool no one into believing they're an airliner with their trajectory and altitudes.

They are also flying in international airspace, which is only a problem for China which unilaterally claims these waters to itself despite no acknowledgement of such by any country or international organization.

There is already a thread on the topic somewhere.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:18 pm

Could have been a prelude to this...nice jet BTW.....

Image

https://newsinfo.inquirer.net/1337058/t ... uzz-island
 
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Tugger
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:58 pm

Francoflier wrote:
They are also flying in international airspace, which is only a problem for China which unilaterally claims these waters to itself despite no acknowledgement of such by any country or international organization.

Not only not acknowledged, but outright refuted. Even Europe is now making clear their position on this.
https://www.cnnphilippines.com/news/202 ... a-Sea.html

Tugg
 
WIederling
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:14 am

Strebav8or wrote:
Yes, because you can just go to the E/E bay and repin/reprogram your transponder in flight to another random number.....
The lies in this article are as blatant as the news media.


You assume a bog standard transponder on an RC-135W?

Amusing.

This is a SPY PLANE. I'd be surprised if they did not have the capability to cloak.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:55 pm

So what is the speculation if why the transponder switch? Testing Chinese reaction time? Distract while something is happening somewhere else?

bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:09 pm

OK having no knowledge of transponder or 707 what so ever, I'll propose a theory and you guys can poke hole in it.

The transponder on this aircraft is the same as regular civil 707. But since they don't make them any more, the USAF have been hoarding them from the commercial fleet. On this flight, the primary transponder had the correct code. When it failed, the back up kicked in. But someone forgot to reprogram the code for the back-up. But knowing this, they didn't think it was a big deal and continue with the mission anyway.



bt
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:45 pm

Total BS. Military IFF/SIF are not the same as civilian transponders and certainly not what came on original build 707s. Whether the RJs have dual transponders installed I cannot say as most military planes up to about 2005 didn’t have two installed.
 
DigitalSea
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:10 pm

WIederling wrote:
Strebav8or wrote:
Yes, because you can just go to the E/E bay and repin/reprogram your transponder in flight to another random number.....
The lies in this article are as blatant as the news media.


You assume a bog standard transponder on an RC-135W?

Amusing.

This is a SPY PLANE. I'd be surprised if they did not have the capability to cloak.


I've seen RC-135s go invisible.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:43 pm

DigitalSea wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Strebav8or wrote:
Yes, because you can just go to the E/E bay and repin/reprogram your transponder in flight to another random number.....
The lies in this article are as blatant as the news media.


You assume a bog standard transponder on an RC-135W?

Amusing.

This is a SPY PLANE. I'd be surprised if they did not have the capability to cloak.


I've seen RC-135s go invisible.


WTF?
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:19 am

DigitalSea wrote:
WIederling wrote:
...This is a SPY PLANE. I'd be surprised if they did not have the capability to cloak.


I've seen RC-135s go invisible.


The first rule about RC-135 cloaking devices is that you don't talk about the RC-135 cloaking devices...
 
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747classic
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:43 am

DigitalSea wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Strebav8or wrote:
Yes, because you can just go to the E/E bay and repin/reprogram your transponder in flight to another random number.....
The lies in this article are as blatant as the news media.


You assume a bog standard transponder on an RC-135W?

Amusing.

This is a SPY PLANE. I'd be surprised if they did not have the capability to cloak.


I've seen RC-135s go invisible.


I have a "deja vu" of KAL 007 and an invisible RC-135
 
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keesje
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:30 am

On topics like this, objectivity is out of the window in half a second.

KAL 007 crossed my mind too, but even the tought of it being a bit more "complicated" then we were told in 1983, would distract from the topic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_ ... Flight_007
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:46 pm

keesje wrote:
On topics like this, objectivity is out of the window in half a second.

KAL 007 crossed my mind too, but even the tought of it being a bit more "complicated" then we were told in 1983, would distract from the topic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_ ... Flight_007


Thank you for finally admitting that you're not objective on this topic.

A bit of irony, though: you're linking to an event also involving a tertiary RC-135 straining for a connection, but had the Soviet higher-ups been even the least bit "objective" about the identity of the 747 instead of having their fangs out believing "it must" be an RC-135, 269 people would still be alive, today.
 
WIederling
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:16 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
keesje wrote:
On topics like this, objectivity is out of the window in half a second.

KAL 007 crossed my mind too, but even the tought of it being a bit more "complicated" then we were told in 1983, would distract from the topic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_ ... Flight_007


Thank you for finally admitting that you're not objective on this topic.

A bit of irony, though: you're linking to an event also involving a tertiary RC-135 straining for a connection, but had the Soviet higher-ups been even the least bit "objective" about the identity of the 747 instead of having their fangs out believing "it must" be an RC-135, 269 people would still be alive, today.


Your are attributing malice where there is none.
Military thinks in threats and fending off those
not in what might be or not.
Though there is another case around that afaics has a fat tag of carelessness or malice stamped on.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:20 pm

WIederling wrote:
Your are attributing malice where there is none.
Military thinks in threats and fending off those
not in what might be or not.
Though there is another case around that afaics has a fat tag of carelessness or malice stamped on.


"fangs out" is an expression meaning they were letting their judgment be clouded by another motivation. Whether it's glory, not being sacked, or panic.

If you're referring to KAL 007, the Soviet higher-ups are on record telling the Air Defense forces to shoot down the plane AFTER being told it was about to leave their airspace; i.e. no longer a threat. Even the RC-135 they thought it was isn't a threat, but they would be well within their rights to maintain their sovereign airspace. Their worry instead was being fired for letting the aircraft slip through their airspace - this is after nearly two hours of incompetent attempted intercepts by their forces. Air defense forces are trained to identify a possible threat first, not to shoot first and identify second. Instead, they ordered the shot first to save their careers. The pilot later admitted he knew it wasn't the RC-135, but since his controllers didn't ask he didn't offer. Of course they weren't malicious, very few people WANT to harm innocents, but their judgment was clouded and they saw and heard only what they wanted to hear; i.e. they were not objective.

The pendulum swung entirely the opposite direction so that, in 1987, a cessna flew all the way to Moscow without being shot down. Partly because fear of reprisals.
 
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keesje
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:58 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Your are attributing malice where there is none.
Military thinks in threats and fending off those
not in what might be or not.
Though there is another case around that afaics has a fat tag of carelessness or malice stamped on.


"fangs out" is an expression meaning they were letting their judgment be clouded by another motivation. Whether it's glory, not being sacked, or panic.

If you're referring to KAL 007, the Soviet higher-ups are on record telling the Air Defense forces to shoot down the plane AFTER being told it was about to leave their airspace; i.e. no longer a threat. Even the RC-135 they thought it was isn't a threat, but they would be well within their rights to maintain their sovereign airspace. Their worry instead was being fired for letting the aircraft slip through their airspace - this is after nearly two hours of incompetent attempted intercepts by their forces. Air defense forces are trained to identify a possible threat first, not to shoot first and identify second. Instead, they ordered the shot first to save their careers. The pilot later admitted he knew it wasn't the RC-135, but since his controllers didn't ask he didn't offer. Of course they weren't malicious, very few people WANT to harm innocents, but their judgment was clouded and they saw and heard only what they wanted to hear; i.e. they were not objective.

The pendulum swung entirely the opposite direction so that, in 1987, a cessna flew all the way to Moscow without being shot down. Partly because fear of reprisals.


The jet crossed and left Russian Aerospace shortly before (Kamchakta) and was shot down above Russian aerospace, hundreds of kilometers off track. In those cold war years US Navy jets had been intruding Soviet aerospace (FleetEx '83, recce","test" ). Soviet air defense leadership was angry, at the time a "reconnaissance" / spionage RC135 aircraft was flying in the area "monitoring" missile tests. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... 1983-83696

Hundreds of innocent people lost their lives and we all immediately condemned the Russians, in good cold war fashion. The full story only came out years later. Similar to IR655, it was clear who had "provoked" the shoot down & we better support our boys out there & defend our freedom. I guess we were a little prejudiced, sheepish, looking back. Now we know better, mostly.
 
wingman
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:43 pm

Yes Keesje, we all know better now. It was America's fault, just like everything else is America's fault. You've been consistent in that message for over a decade now. KL007, COVID, Global Warming, The 100 Year War, the Crucifiction, your name..the list is huge.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:57 pm

keesje wrote:
The jet crossed and left Russian Aerospace shortly before (Kamchakta) and was shot down above Russian aerospace, hundreds of kilometers off track. In those cold war years US Navy jets had been intruding Soviet aerospace (FleetEx '83, recce","test" ). Soviet air defense leadership was angry, at the time a "reconnaissance" / spionage RC135 aircraft was flying in the area "monitoring" missile tests. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... 1983-83696

Hundreds of innocent people lost their lives and we all immediately condemned the Russians, in good cold war fashion. The full story only came out years later. Similar to IR655, it was clear who had "provoked" the shoot down & we better support our boys out there & defend our freedom. I guess we were a little prejudiced, sheepish, looking back. Now we know better, mostly.


Amazing logical contortions here, Keesje. KAL 007 was in Soviet territory for hours, maintaining a steady course for the entire time - versus RC-135s who generally were never in Soviet airspace or skirted it in specific areas - and was hundreds of nautical miles from where the RC-135s orbited, flying with its very recognizable lights on at night. In spite of all those red flags, you still blame the US because there was an RC-135 elsewhere in the same hemisphere? Even though the top Soviet commander wanted to make sure it wasn't a commercial airliner, his underling - the one who lied about his radar being operational, whose fighters had failed to intercept a plump-747 who wasn't evading, and who was worried he'd be exposed as a keen bullshitter and incompetent moron - ordered the shootdown without verifying it wasn't a civilian aircraft because "it has already overflown Kamchatka". As if that settled the matter. Blaming the Soviet leadership for being complete morons wasn't "supporting our boys and defending our freedom". It was calling a spade a spade.

Then you compare it to IR655... While externally similar, comparing a ship in an active war zone - just after shooting at Iranian gunboats - with scant minutes to fire on a misidentified target that could possibly result in the loss of the ship to a sleepy, quiet outpost whose last combat action was decades before. Just wow.

Let me reverse the picture: if the USAF downed a commercial airliner off the coast of California and then blamed it on a Russian TU-95 off the coast of Washington we would understandably be viewed as incompetent or liars, or both.
 
FGITD
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:33 pm

LyleLanley wrote:

Amazing logical contortions here, Keesje. KAL 007 was in Soviet territory for hours, maintaining a steady course for the entire time - versus RC-135s who generally were never in Soviet airspace or skirted it in specific areas - and was hundreds of nautical miles from where the RC-135s orbited, flying with its very recognizable lights on at night. In spite of all those red flags, you still blame the US because there was an RC-135 elsewhere in the same hemisphere? Even though the top Soviet commander wanted to make sure it wasn't a commercial airliner, his underling - the one who lied about his radar being operational, whose fighters had failed to intercept a plump-747 who wasn't evading, and who was worried he'd be exposed as a keen bullshitter and incompetent moron - ordered the shootdown without verifying it wasn't a civilian aircraft because "it has already overflown Kamchatka". As if that settled the matter. Blaming the Soviet leadership for being complete morons wasn't "supporting our boys and defending our freedom". It was calling a spade a spade.

Then you compare it to IR655... While externally similar, comparing a ship in an active war zone - just after shooting at Iranian gunboats - with scant minutes to fire on a misidentified target that could possibly result in the loss of the ship to a sleepy, quiet outpost whose last combat action was decades before. Just wow.

Let me reverse the picture: if the USAF downed a commercial airliner off the coast of California and then blamed it on a Russian TU-95 off the coast of Washington we would understandably be viewed as incompetent or liars, or both.


Let's not forget that KAL007 was also shot down by a pilot who later more or less admitted that he knew it was a commercial 747, but no one asked him so he didn't say anything. (this is of course the same su15 pilot who was outmaneuvered by a passenger 747 gently climbing, and by some accounts also barely got a lock on it)

If your defense protocol of friendly vs foe hinges on one controller asking "is it a passenger plane?" Then I think it's safe to say you're at fault. All this after tracking and following the flight for hours. They then proceeded to harass and actively prevent other countries from searching for the wreckage, like all innocent and cooperative parties will do.

IR655 was an unfortunate mistake. But the crew didn't have the benefit of time or visual ID like the Soviets did. The captain of the USS Stark made the mistake of waiting and seeing, and lost almost 40 sailors and very nearly the ship.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:51 pm

FGITD wrote:
Let's not forget that KAL007 was also shot down by a pilot who later more or less admitted that he knew it was a commercial 747, but no one asked him so he didn't say anything. (this is of course the same su15 pilot who was outmaneuvered by a passenger 747 gently climbing, and by some accounts also barely got a lock on it)

If your defense protocol of friendly vs foe hinges on one controller asking "is it a passenger plane?" Then I think it's safe to say you're at fault. All this after tracking and following the flight for hours. They then proceeded to harass and actively prevent other countries from searching for the wreckage, like all innocent and cooperative parties will do.

IR655 was an unfortunate mistake. But the crew didn't have the benefit of time or visual ID like the Soviets did. The captain of the USS Stark made the mistake of waiting and seeing, and lost almost 40 sailors and very nearly the ship.


Absolutely right. The US is rarely innocent, but that doesn't mean the 'other side' is innocent either.

My last thought on the topic is the disparity in accountability between the respective sides: Captain Will Rogers III, the captain of the USS Vincennes, who was an up-and-coming in the Navy before the IR655 shootdown, retired as a captain because the shootdown effectively ended his career. General Anatoly Kornukov, the incompetent moron who commanded the rag-tag interceptors, lied to his superior, and whose over-aggressiveness and lack of objectivity effectively caused the KAL 007 shootdown, later became the head of the Russian Air Force.

Bullshit rises to the top almost as often as cream.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:45 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
Bullshit rises to the top almost as often as cream.


:D , talking about the current US political environment?

bt
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:27 am

Ha! ...Maybe... :bigthumbsup:
 
LTEN11
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:41 am

bikerthai wrote:
LyleLanley wrote:
Bullshit rises to the top almost as often as cream.


:D , talking about the current US political environment?

bt


Not just in the US gents
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:59 am

LTEN11 wrote:
Not just in the US gents


Very true. I was just trying not to sh*t on allied nations who happen to have similar problems as the U.S.A.

When ignorant people are in a race to the bottom we all lose.
 
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Strebav8or
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Re: RC-135W disguising as a Malaysian plane

Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:24 am

WIederling wrote:
Strebav8or wrote:
Yes, because you can just go to the E/E bay and repin/reprogram your transponder in flight to another random number.....
The lies in this article are as blatant as the news media.


You assume a bog standard transponder on an RC-135W?

Amusing.

This is a SPY PLANE. I'd be surprised if they did not have the capability to cloak.



And you've been onboard how many RC-135's??
During my short 51 years of life, I have seen and been on board many. your transponders are still in the E/E, with the control head in the cockpit....
or wait, you all think the control head IS the unit........

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