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giblets
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India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:51 am

I've seen recently that India is widening its search for new carrier based aircraft. WHat is perhaps more interesting is that they are also including the Rafale and Hornet in this mix, interesting as India operates STOBAR carriers (Short Take Off But Arrested Landing) with a ski jump instead of a catapult.

Currently, the only aircraft suitable (or rather qualified) for this are the Russian based jets (and technically the Harrier/ F-35b with a vertical landing). I've read that the Rafale did trials with the Ski jump, but perhaps at a much lower angle (1.5degree) on the Foch, and some further trials in the US (but no details on angles).

Boeing has also announced that the F-18 is fully capable of using the ski jump, having done a load of simulations, they are ready to try the real thing and demonstrate this to the Indians, (I note from the link and image of an F-18A undergoing some dry land ski jump trials.)

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... ndian-navy

As an addition, there was some talk of the USN creating some smaller carriers, a half way house STOBAR type ship that could take F-18s and F-35bs could be an interesting option, with decreased costs.
 
Max Q
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:56 am

Interesting, they can probably make it work but I have to wonder how limited their weapons load will be using a ski jump



I don’t think it comes close to what is possible with a catapult launch
 
giblets
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:02 am

Max Q wrote:
Interesting, they can probably make it work but I have to wonder how limited their weapons load will be using a ski jump



I don’t think it comes close to what is possible with a catapult launch


Agree, though I understand the Indians are really not happy with the performance of the Russian jets, so I guess it will be a case of least worst!
 
art
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:23 pm

With Navy Tejas abandoned and talk of an indigenous twin-engined carrier fighter being designed, could this so called TEDBF be designed with high lift devices to overcome some of the load loss that would afflict ski jump Rafale or F/A-18 operation?

Of course, the navy may not be able to wait 6-10 years (my guess) for such a fighter.
 
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Slug71
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:58 am

giblets wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Interesting, they can probably make it work but I have to wonder how limited their weapons load will be using a ski jump



I don’t think it comes close to what is possible with a catapult launch


Agree, though I understand the Indians are really not happy with the performance of the Russian jets, so I guess it will be a case of least worst!


Yet they just bought more?
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:42 am

art wrote:
With Navy Tejas abandoned and talk of an indigenous twin-engined carrier fighter being designed, could this so called TEDBF be designed with high lift devices to overcome some of the load loss that would afflict ski jump Rafale or F/A-18 operation?

Of course, the navy may not be able to wait 6-10 years (my guess) for such a fighter.


It will probably be another 10 years before Cochin has finished Vikrant :bigthumbsup:
 
angad84
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Yet they just bought more?

No they didn't?

Kiwirob wrote:
It will probably be another 10 years before Cochin has finished Vikrant :bigthumbsup:

well deserved, but thankfully it looks like we're on the final stretch, at last! Almost certainly missing the (re-re-)re-scheduled service entry date, but not by much this time. It's running <1yr behind the new baseline, so at the latest we should see the Indian ensign up by 2023. Unless, of course, something goes badly wrong during trials. The Navy loves shiny new, so they will likely let anything but the most egregious screwups slide in the interest of taking the ship and working up to op capability at the soonest.
 
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Slug71
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:03 pm

angad84 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Yet they just bought more?

No they didn't?


Back in June or July they did. Mig 29s and SU 30s.
 
Ozair
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:14 pm

Slug71 wrote:
angad84 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Yet they just bought more?

No they didn't?


Back in June or July they did. Mig 29s and SU 30s.
The Air Force looked to top up their MiG-29 fleet, not the Navy... Procurement between the two is not linked.
 
Ozair
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:44 pm

giblets wrote:
I've seen recently that India is widening its search for new carrier based aircraft. WHat is perhaps more interesting is that they are also including the Rafale and Hornet in this mix, interesting as India operates STOBAR carriers (Short Take Off But Arrested Landing) with a ski jump instead of a catapult.


By the way we have had numerous threads here on this topic including the last one, viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1435617&p=22037943&hilit=indian#p22037943

Plenty on info in there about the respective aircraft options and limitations that the Indian carriers have.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:59 pm

angad84 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Yet they just bought more?

No they didn't?

Kiwirob wrote:
It will probably be another 10 years before Cochin has finished Vikrant :bigthumbsup:

well deserved, but thankfully it looks like we're on the final stretch, at last! Almost certainly missing the (re-re-)re-scheduled service entry date, but not by much this time. It's running <1yr behind the new baseline, so at the latest we should see the Indian ensign up by 2023. Unless, of course, something goes badly wrong during trials. The Navy loves shiny new, so they will likely let anything but the most egregious screwups slide in the interest of taking the ship and working up to op capability at the soonest.


I went onboard in December 2018, she was a mess, I’ve been onboard a lot of ships under construction but never one as messy as her.
 
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Nomadd
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:37 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
angad84 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Yet they just bought more?

No they didn't?

Kiwirob wrote:
It will probably be another 10 years before Cochin has finished Vikrant :bigthumbsup:

well deserved, but thankfully it looks like we're on the final stretch, at last! Almost certainly missing the (re-re-)re-scheduled service entry date, but not by much this time. It's running <1yr behind the new baseline, so at the latest we should see the Indian ensign up by 2023. Unless, of course, something goes badly wrong during trials. The Navy loves shiny new, so they will likely let anything but the most egregious screwups slide in the interest of taking the ship and working up to op capability at the soonest.


I went onboard in December 2018, she was a mess, I’ve been onboard a lot of ships under construction but never one as messy as her.

Sure you didn't get on one of the ships at the breakers by mistake?
 
angad84
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:03 am

Kiwirob wrote:
I went onboard in December 2018, she was a mess, I’ve been onboard a lot of ships under construction but never one as messy as her.

That's just Indian yards! absolute shambles, but clean up quick. it's definitely part of the problem though...
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:54 am

angad84 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
I went onboard in December 2018, she was a mess, I’ve been onboard a lot of ships under construction but never one as messy as her.

That's just Indian yards! absolute shambles, but clean up quick. it's definitely part of the problem though...


There was a lot potential for Indian yards to grow and compete with Chinese and Korean yards, but they are so freaking incompetent it could never happen. A lot like Ukraine, massive potential but corrupt and incompetent leadership just killed it.
 
Ozair
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:15 am

Boeing has tested the SH off a ski jump at Pax River. Reportedly there was also a delegation of Indian officials from their embassy on scene to witness the event.

Boeing Super Hornet Demonstrates Ski-jump Launch Capability

Boeing and the U.S. Navy proved recently that the F/A-18 Super Hornet can operate from a “ski jump” ramp, demonstrating the aircraft’s suitability for India’s aircraft carriers, the company said in a Dec. 21 release.

The demonstrations, held at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Maryland, showed the Super Hornet would do well with the Indian Navy’s short takeoff but arrested recovery (STOBAR) system, validating earlier simulation studies by Boeing.

“The first successful and safe launch of the F/A-18 Super Hornet from a ski jump begins the validation process to operate effectively from Indian navy aircraft carriers,” said Ankur Kanaglekar, India fighter sales lead for Boeing. “The F/A-18 Block III Super Hornet will not only provide superior warfighting capability to the Indian navy, but also create opportunities for cooperation in naval aviation between the United States and India.”

The Indian navy is evaluating its fighter options. If it selects the Super Hornet, it would benefit from billions of dollars invested in new technologies by the U.S. Navy and others. Those technologies include advanced networking, longer range through conformal fuel tanks, infrared search and track, and a new advanced cockpit system.

...

https://seapowermagazine.org/boeing-sup ... apability/

Image

and short video here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a94kftGnFnY It certainly comes off the ramp fast and looks like the pilot or FCS pulls back the climb to a steadier angle.

Obviously a single seat no external payload aircraft is very different to a fully configured strike aircraft and a lot more testing would be required but certainly ticks the box for trying hard to win the Indian Navy fighter contract. This article also suggests that the Indian Navy and Air Force fighter selections may be linked although I expect that would delay the already glacial IAF contest should they try and select an airframe for both.

F/A-18 Super Hornet Demonstrates STOBAR Capability in Bid for Indian Navy Carrier Fighter Contract

Though Boeing has pursued the IN contract for several years, now the prize appears more lucrative. Earlier this month Admiral Karambir Singh, Chief of the Naval Staff, said that ideally the Navy’s contract would combine with the Indian Air Force’s requirement for an additional 114 twin-engine strike fighters. By merging the two contracts the winning manufacturer will benefit hugely from the deal.

https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/12/22 ... -contract/
 
angad84
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:00 pm

Ozair wrote:
Obviously a single seat no external payload aircraft is very different to a fully configured strike aircraft

There were multiple configs tested, including with payloads.

Ozair wrote:
This article also suggests that the Indian Navy and Air Force fighter selections may be linked

The Navy would love that, but the IAF is having absolutely none of it.
 
Ozair
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:33 am

angad84 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Obviously a single seat no external payload aircraft is very different to a fully configured strike aircraft

There were multiple configs tested, including with payloads.

Interesting and good to know. We had discussed previously about the viability of ski jump testing in India, do you think this is a sufficient demonstration of SH capability for the Indian Navy?

angad84 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
This article also suggests that the Indian Navy and Air Force fighter selections may be linked

The Navy would love that, but the IAF is having absolutely none of it.

It feels like at this stage the Indian Navy would be better off staying away from any Indian Air Force fighter procurement anyway, unless they are concerned about actually getting the funding to acquire an aircraft?
 
angad84
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:51 pm

Ozair wrote:
angad84 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Obviously a single seat no external payload aircraft is very different to a fully configured strike aircraft

There were multiple configs tested, including with payloads.

Interesting and good to know. We had discussed previously about the viability of ski jump testing in India, do you think this is a sufficient demonstration of SH capability for the Indian Navy?

This is more to validate Boeing's simulations than anything representative for the IN (altho the hype will have you believe the opposite). FWIW, I think Boeing has done well to put their money where their mouth is by paying for flight testing, representative or otherwise. OTOH, I would be surprised if, after the MiG-29K fiasco the Navy procures (or is allowed to procure) a new jet without representative testing, which at a minimum would mean launch and recovery from the shore based STOBAR facility. If they buy without full evals, then, well, good luck to them when the auditor starts taking names...

Ozair wrote:
angad84 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
This article also suggests that the Indian Navy and Air Force fighter selections may be linked

The Navy would love that, but the IAF is having absolutely none of it.

It feels like at this stage the Indian Navy would be better off staying away from any Indian Air Force fighter procurement anyway, unless they are concerned about actually getting the funding to acquire an aircraft?

Yep. If they force the issue, they will get Rafales shoved down their throats, and the Rafale is far from ideal for the pocket carriers the IN operates (STOBAR, small hangars, small lifts).
 
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kitplane01
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:10 am

angad84 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
angad84 wrote:
There were multiple configs tested, including with payloads.

Interesting and good to know. We had discussed previously about the viability of ski jump testing in India, do you think this is a sufficient demonstration of SH capability for the Indian Navy?

This is more to validate Boeing's simulations than anything representative for the IN (altho the hype will have you believe the opposite). FWIW, I think Boeing has done well to put their money where their mouth is by paying for flight testing, representative or otherwise. OTOH, I would be surprised if, after the MiG-29K fiasco the Navy procures (or is allowed to procure) a new jet without representative testing, which at a minimum would mean launch and recovery from the shore based STOBAR facility. If they buy without full evals, then, well, good luck to them when the auditor starts taking names...

Ozair wrote:
angad84 wrote:
The Navy would love that, but the IAF is having absolutely none of it.

It feels like at this stage the Indian Navy would be better off staying away from any Indian Air Force fighter procurement anyway, unless they are concerned about actually getting the funding to acquire an aircraft?

Yep. If they force the issue, they will get Rafales shoved down their throats, and the Rafale is far from ideal for the pocket carriers the IN operates (STOBAR, small hangars, small lifts).


I’m curious in what way the Rafale would be worse than the Super Hornet.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: India: New Carrier Aircraft, STOBAR...inc Rafale/ Hornet

Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:25 am

kitplane01 wrote:
angad84 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Interesting and good to know. We had discussed previously about the viability of ski jump testing in India, do you think this is a sufficient demonstration of SH capability for the Indian Navy?

This is more to validate Boeing's simulations than anything representative for the IN (altho the hype will have you believe the opposite). FWIW, I think Boeing has done well to put their money where their mouth is by paying for flight testing, representative or otherwise. OTOH, I would be surprised if, after the MiG-29K fiasco the Navy procures (or is allowed to procure) a new jet without representative testing, which at a minimum would mean launch and recovery from the shore based STOBAR facility. If they buy without full evals, then, well, good luck to them when the auditor starts taking names...

Ozair wrote:
It feels like at this stage the Indian Navy would be better off staying away from any Indian Air Force fighter procurement anyway, unless they are concerned about actually getting the funding to acquire an aircraft?

Yep. If they force the issue, they will get Rafales shoved down their throats, and the Rafale is far from ideal for the pocket carriers the IN operates (STOBAR, small hangars, small lifts).


I’m curious in what way the Rafale would be worse than the Super Hornet.

The big issue would the size of the lifts on the Indian carriers.

The size of the lifts as built for the Indian carriers is 10 x 14 metres. A MiG-29K barely squeezes onto that, and it's a fairly small aircraft to begin with.

The Super Hornet and Rafale are already a bit big for that lift; in the case of the Super Hornet, it has folding wings, and Boeing was working on a method to load the Super Hornet onto the lift diagonally, which should allow it to fit.

The Rafale has fixed wings, and is wider as a result. It won't fit on the carrier's lifts; barring some disassembly of the aircraft.

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