Does anyone know what routes did CRAF aircraft both passenger and cargo operate during the Gulf War (1990-91) and the Iraqi War (2003) these sources: https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/p ... /MR298.pdf https://www.jcs.mil/Portals/36/Document ... anscom.pdf https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/d ... 1&type=pdf only show airlines and aircraft that participated in both activations but I want to know what routes did they flew?

Very simple answer. CRAF stood for the Civil Reserve Air Fleet and many airlines jumped on this program during peace time as it afforded them a certain "kick back" in funding, that many airlines needed. When the wars broke out, many airlines found themselves losing their airplanes and their found fortunes stung a few of them that wound up with equipment shortages. To answer your question, they basically operated right alongside military transport planes flying the exact same routes as C-5As did at the time. They hauled both freight and military personnel from military bases to other military bases around the world or moved troops from civilian airports to military bases. They did a lot of of work similar to what an airline like Atlas does today.

Back in the early 90s, the military was short on transport and cargo planes as the C-17 was just getting underway, so the CRAF program was the best short term solution.

the majority was into KWI, along with DXB for 2003-2007.

Do you know which US bases and airports did these flights originate from I know a majority of CRAF flights stopped in FRA, NUE, RMS, BRU, OST and AMS on there way but where in the US did these flights originate from?

UA857 wrote:

Do you know which US bases and airports did these flights originate from I know a majority of CRAF flights stopped in FRA, NUE, RMS, BRU, OST and AMS on there way but where in the US did these flights originate from?

They usually originated from the Army Airfield or Air Force Base closest to the unit's home base. Often stopping in either SNN or HHN before moving on to KWI, Ali Al Salem, or somewhere else in theater. If what you're looking for is some sort of schedule then there wasn't one. Not like the AMC flights out of BWI that stop in RMS before heading downrange that exist now.

UA857 wrote:

Do you know which US bases and airports did these flights originate from I know a majority of CRAF flights stopped in FRA, NUE, RMS, BRU, OST and AMS on there way but where in the US did these flights originate from?

United flew DC10's and 747's out of SFO to bases in the USA then on to BRU ,RMS and on to Kuwait and Saudi Aabia for Staging then returned via RMS . Some of the Bases in USA were Ft Hood TX, FT. Polk, LA, Pope AFB, They flew out of other bases during Desert Shield but those were the bases I worked during the Gulf War
runup. We flew 747-122's and DC10's to FRA. but not to the middle east. that I remember.. we did have 3 CRAF Dc10's but they were never converted to full cargo while at United and I think FEDEX finally converted them and later made then MD-10's

I I was in DHA at thee time and spent days watching C5's C141's and all the civilian flights land once a minute every minute day after day. Heck of an operation. The following list is what I saw.

12/11/90 Dharhan
68-0214 Galaxy USAF
67-0167 Galaxy USAF
87-0032 Galaxy USAF
83-0079 KC10 USAF
63-8090 Starlifter USAF
67-0026 Starlifter USAF
13/11/90 Dharhan
N191AT Tristar AmericanTransAir
85-0002 Galaxy USAF
85-0010 Galaxy USAF
65-0272 Starlifter USAF
17/11/90 Dharhan
N472EV B747 Evergreen
19/11/90 Dharhan
163261 Whitehawk VIP
163259 Whitehawk VIP
82-8000 VC-25A USAF
20/11/90 Dharhan
86-0034 KC10 USAF
N815EV DC8 Evergreen
21/11/90 Dharhan
69-0024 Galaxy USAF
69-0027 Galaxy USAF
87-0034 Galaxy USAF
N528SJ B707 Southern
22/11/90 Dharhan
58-6972 VC-137 (707)
816 Skyhawk KAF
24/11/90 Dharhan
N995CF DC8 Emery
26/11/90 Dharhan
64-0623 Starlifter USAF
27/11/90 Dharhan
N728PL DC8 ATI
28/11/90 Dharhan
N602FF B747 TowerAir
N720FW B707 FloridaWest
01/12/90 Dharhan
65-0269 Starlifter USAF
83-0076 KC10 USAF
02/12/90 Dharhan
N996CF DC8 Emery
N961R DC8 Emery
N633FE B747 FedEx
N673UP B747 UPS
69-0003 Galaxy USAF
85-0003 Galaxy USAF
65-9404 Starlifter USAF
65-0265 Starlifter USAF
66-0139 Starlifter USAF
67-0018 Starlifter USAF
03/12/90 Dharhan
69-0017 Galaxy USAF
70-0456 Galaxy USAF
65-0270 Starlifter USAF
66-7953 Starlifter USAF
84-0108 Learjet USAF
N764BE Tristar Hawaiin
07/01/91 Dhahran
N792FT DC8 Emery
N921R DC8 Emery
N993CF DC8 Emery
N997CF DC8 Emery
65-0220 Starlifter USAF
65-0258 Starlifter USAF
67-0012 Starlifter USAF
69-6582 C130 USAF
4215 F15 RSAF
807 Skyhawk KAF
809 Skyhawk KAF
819 Skyhawk KAF
884 Skyhawk KAF
N715A B737 Aramco
N716A B737 Aramco
N720A B737 Aramco
N710A F27 Aramco
N714A F27 Aramco
08/01/1991 Dhahran
N998CF DC8 Emery
58-6971 VC137 (707)
85-0001 Galaxy USAF
84-0088 LearJet USAF
73-22267 KingAirUSAF
73-22259 KingAirUSAF
10358 Sikorsky53 USAF
69-6566 C130 USAF
64-0615 Starlifter USAF
64-0619 Starlifter USAF
64-0648 Starlifter USAF
65-0239 Starlifter USAF
65-0260 Starlifter USAF
66-0182 Starlifter USAF
67-0002 Starlifter USAF
67-0165 Starlifter USAF
CCCP-82008 An124 AirFoyle
09/01/91 Dhahran
N628FE B747 FedEx
65-0223 Starlifter USAF
14/01/1991 Dhahran
65-0232 Starlifter USAF
65-0247 Starlifter USAF
66-0164 Starlifter USAF
66-0189 Starlifter USAF
66-0201 Starlifter USAF
67-0173 Galaxy USAF
157164 Sikorsky53 USAF
1816 Awacs RSAF
1802 B707 RSAF
N476EV B747 Evergreen
15/01/1991 Dhahran
YK-AHB B747SP SyrianAir
469 C130 RSAF
O21756 C212 USAF
16/01/1991 Dhahran
66-0202 Starlifter USAF
64-0550 C130 USAF
O22996 Blackhawk
464 C130 RSAF
19/01/1991 Dhahran
N475FE B747 FedEx
N630FE B747 FedEx
N640FE B747 FedEx
N3931A DC8 HawaiianAir
N93106 B747 TWA
N735PL DC8 ATI
63-8083 Starlifter USAF
65-0227 Starlifter USAF
67-0019 Starlifter USAF
20/01/1991 Dhahran
N618US B747 N/West
N625FE B747 FedEx
N672UP B747 UPS
N871SJ B707 SAT
9K-ADC B747 KuwaitAW
XR807 VC10 RAF
65-0277 Starlifter USAF
66-0127 Starlifter USAF
67-0168 Galaxy USAF
86-1397 C130 USAF
86-1391 C130 USAF
61-0948 C130 USAF
85-1367 C130 USAF
63-7823 C130 USAF
73-22268 KingAir
829 Skyhawk KAF
22/01/91 Dhahran
86-0019 Galaxy USAF
87-0043 Galaxy USAF
64-0633 Starlifter USAF
66-0140 Starlifter USAF
86-1395 C130 USAF
86-0089 KingAir
23/01/91 Dhahran
N870SJ DC8 SAT
5X-DAR B707 DAS
EL-JNS B707 Transway
G-BDEA B707 Anglo
KAF-325 C130 KAF
70-O467 Galaxy USAF
66-0137 Starlifter USAF
86-0087 KingAir
827 Skyhawk KAF
24/01/91 Dhahran
HB-IEI B707 Homac
N626FE B747 FedEx
69-0014 Galaxy USAF
87-0027 Galaxy USAF
64-0635 Starlifter USAF
65-9414 Starlifter USAF
66-0143 Starlifter USAF
66-0149 Starlifter USAF
66-0171 Starlifter USAF
66-0188 Starlifter USAF
66-0199 Starlifter USAF
23749 Bell212 USAF
818 Skyhawk KAF
25/01/91 Dhahran
N23UA DC8 Kalitta
N107WA DC10 WorldAW
N990CF DC8 Emery
86-0022 Galaxy USAF
63-8075 Starlifter USAF
63-8086 Starlifter USAF
67-0015 Starlifter USAF
68-0935 C130 USAF
22941 KingAir
5185 C130 SKoreaAF
886 Skyhawk KAF
701 Mirage KAF
704 Mirage KAF
706 Mirage KAF
710 Mirage KAF
715 Mirage KAF
719 Mirage KAF
764 Mirage KAF
765 Mirage KAF
766 Mirage KAF
767 Mirage KAF
01/02/91 Dhahran
HZ-110 HS125 RSAF
104 HS125 RSAF
N635FE B747 FedEx
68-0219 Galaxy USAF
73-22253 KingAir
02/02/91 Dhahran
N817EV DC8 Evergreen
67-0164 Starlifter USAF
84-0061 Galaxy USAF
102 Jetstar RSAF
25452 Apache
25430 Apache
26097 Blackhawk
3458 Tornado RSAF
04/02/91 Dhahran
G-EOCO B707 Anglo
N108WA DC10 WorldAW
24/02/91 Dhahran
3D-AFB DC8 AfricanInt
N994CF DC8 Emery
27/02/91 Dhahran
69-6583 C130 USAF
28/02/91 Dhahran
82023 F15 USAF
01/03/91 Dhahran
HZ-MS3 Gulf3 RSAF
N680UP B747 UPS
ZA291 SeaKing RAF
83-0014 F15 USAF
02/03/91 Dhahran
63-8087 Starlifter USAF
64-0627 Starlifter USAF
04/03/91 Dhahran
EP-AJO DC8 Liberia
1612 C130 RSAF
06/03/91 Dhahran
67-0023 Starlifter USAF
69-0011 Galaxy USAF
85-0006 Galaxy USAF
84-0185 KC10 USAF
83-0028 F15 USAF
07/03/91 Dhahran
65-0221 Starlifter USAF
09/03/91 Dhahran
N173DN B767 Delta
65-0216 Starlifter USAF
65-0240 Starlifter USAF
66-0185 Starlifter USAF
86-0036 KC10 USAF
10/03/91 Dhahran
4218 F15 RSAF
11/03/91 Dhahran
N477EV B747 Evergreen
N5784M KingAir
N811CK DC8 Kalitta
86-0015 Galaxy USAF
87-0030 Galaxy USAF
67DC Puma FAF
3461 Tornado RSAF
12/03/91 Dhahran
N20UA DC8 Kalitta
N641FE B747 FedEx
66-8306 Galaxy USAF
86-0011 Galaxy USAF
81866 Sherpa USAA
1505 F15
13/03/91 Dhahran
N638FE B747 FedEx
PH-MCA A310 MartinAir
64-0616 Starlifter USAF
66-0138 Starlifter USAF
66-0174 Starlifter USAF
68-0225 Galaxy USAF
4409 Blackhawk
O15927 U212
4220 F15 RSAF
XX416 Gazelle
XX453 Gazelle
XZ292 Gazelle
XZ318 Gazelle
XZ343 Gazelle
XZ347 Gazelle
16/03/91 Dhahran
66-0136 Starlifter USAF
21290 C130
2111 Dassault Guardian USCG
18/03/91 Dhahran
N93105 B747 TWA
66-0155 Starlifter USAF
66-0170 Starlifter USAF
66-7955 Starlifter USAF
69-0004 Galaxy USAF
23/03/91 Dhahran
N808CK DC8 Kalitta
N156UA B747 UA
65-0254 Starlifter USAF
69-0005 Galaxy USAF
69-0007 Galaxy USAF
66-8307 Galaxy USAF
26092 Blackhawk
26100 Blackhawk
XZ214 Lynx
XZ219 Lynx
XZ610 Lynx
XZ653 Lynx
24/03/91 Dhahran
66-0205 Starlifter USAF
66-7946 Starlifter USAF
62-1807 C130 USAF
31296 KingAir
XW909 Gazelle
XX437 Gazelle
XZ337 Gazelle
XZ338 Gazelle
XZ208 Lynx
XZ222 Lynx
XZ617 Lynx
XZ679 Lynx
XZ680 Lynx
25/03/91 Dhahran
66-0142 Starlifter USAF
26/03/91 Dhahran
N532AW B747 AmericaWest
N93109 B747 TWA
66-0192 Starlifter USAF
68-0221 Galaxy USAF
88-1864 Sherpa USAA
463 C-130 RSAF
27/03/91 Dhahran
N112WA DC10 WorldAW
30/03/91 Dhahran
N702A F27 Aramco
64-0650 Starlifter USAF
65-0249 Starlifter USAF
69-0018 Galaxy USAF
69-0025 Galaxy USAF
70-0461 Galaxy USAF
159753 Viking USN
31/03/91 Dhahran
N353AA B747 UA
N4720U B747 UA
67-0021 Starlifter USAF
63-7770 C130 USAF
86-1391 C130 USAF
4202 F15 RSAF
4214 F15 RSAF
01/04/91 Dhahran
84-0213 C130 USAF
02/04/91 Dhahran
N185AT Tristar ATA
66-0197 Starlifter USAF
84-0064 LearJet USAF
88-1307 C130 USAF
03/04/91 Dhahran
70-0457 Galaxy USAF
64-0625 Starlifter USAF
06/04/91 Dhahran
63-7834 C-130 USAF
84-0212 C-130 USAF
70-1264 C-130 USAF
23551 Blackhawk
23749 Blackhawk
4217 F-15
08/04/91 Dhahran
N728A DC8 Aramco
N791AL DC8 arrow
65-0264 Starlifter
65-9409 Starlifter
67-0014 Galaxy
23404 Blackhawk
85-1366 C130 USAF
160585 Viking USN
3762 Hawk
3763 Hawk
3764 Hawk
10/04/91 Dhahran
64-0497 C130 USAF
66-7959 Starlifter
14/04/91 Dhahran
N798AL DC8 Arrow
3D-ADV DC8 African IntAL
66-0130 Starlifter
65-0259 Starlifter
64-0636 Starlifter
65-9398 Starlifter
65-9413 Starlifter
3453 Tornado
3456 Tornado
63-7791 C130 USAF
63-7803 C130 USAF
16/04/91 Dhahran
N187AT Tristar ATA
N533AW B747 AmericaWest
65-0238 Starlifter
66-0132 Starlifter
68-0222 Galaxy
62-1849 C130 USAF
63-7879 C130 USAF
86-1398 C130 USAF
772 Tornado RSAF

CO was using MXP as the stopover for crew change, then around 2005 moved to FRA, and eventually HHN became the stopover. (SNN was also used as a fuel stop when the 757 was the a/c)

I was stationed in Germany when my unit was ordered to Saudi in 12/90. We flew a UA747 from Rhein-Main to I believe Riyadh. The flight crew told us we were going to fly over Egypt and once southern enough would fly over the Red Sea into Saudi and I believe it was RUH where we landed along with 4 other 747s all lined up on the taxi way unloading a never ending sea of green duffel bags. We were then bussed to the port areas where we waited for our equipment to arrive.

When I left we flew out of KKMC to FCO on a Pan AM 747 in the middle of the night. Watched the sun rise in Rome as we sat on a taxi way again with several other American flagged 747s. After about 4 hours we finally left and flew into NUE which could only handle 1 plane at a time. We flew out of Saudi quickly in the night when it was cool and then we were stacked in FCO waiting our turn to land in NUH.

AA flew USA-FRA-KWI.

Do you know where in the US did these routes originate from?

Every Army AAF or USAF AFB near the unit deploying.

UA857 wrote:

Do you know where in the US did these routes originate from?

pick a base and they flew from there.

I remember back in 2004 I took care of few sets of crew of ATA(American Trans Air) flying TriStars and 757s in and out of PRG(Prague, CZ) having crew change here while flying these military charter flights to KWI and Qatar(I think it was Al Udeid Air Base).

goosebayguy wrote:

I I was in DHA at thee time and spent days watching C5's C141's and all the civilian flights land once a minute every minute day after day. Heck of an operation. The following list is what I saw.

12/11/90 Dharhan
68-0214 Galaxy USAF
67-0167 Galaxy USAF
87-0032 Galaxy USAF
83-0079 KC10 USAF
63-8090 Starlifter USAF
67-0026 Starlifter USAF
13/11/90 Dharhan
N191AT Tristar AmericanTransAir
85-0002 Galaxy USAF
85-0010 Galaxy USAF
65-0272 Starlifter USAF
17/11/90 Dharhan
N472EV B747 Evergreen
19/11/90 Dharhan
163261 Whitehawk VIP
163259 Whitehawk VIP
82-8000 VC-25A USAF
20/11/90 Dharhan
86-0034 KC10 USAF
N815EV DC8 Evergreen
21/11/90 Dharhan
69-0024 Galaxy USAF
69-0027 Galaxy USAF
87-0034 Galaxy USAF
N528SJ B707 Southern
22/11/90 Dharhan
58-6972 VC-137 (707)
816 Skyhawk KAF
24/11/90 Dharhan
N995CF DC8 Emery
26/11/90 Dharhan
64-0623 Starlifter USAF
27/11/90 Dharhan
N728PL DC8 ATI
28/11/90 Dharhan
N602FF B747 TowerAir
N720FW B707 FloridaWest
01/12/90 Dharhan
65-0269 Starlifter USAF
83-0076 KC10 USAF
02/12/90 Dharhan
N996CF DC8 Emery
N961R DC8 Emery
N633FE B747 FedEx
N673UP B747 UPS
69-0003 Galaxy USAF
85-0003 Galaxy USAF
65-9404 Starlifter USAF
65-0265 Starlifter USAF
66-0139 Starlifter USAF
67-0018 Starlifter USAF
03/12/90 Dharhan
69-0017 Galaxy USAF
70-0456 Galaxy USAF
65-0270 Starlifter USAF
66-7953 Starlifter USAF
84-0108 Learjet USAF
N764BE Tristar Hawaiin
07/01/91 Dhahran
N792FT DC8 Emery
N921R DC8 Emery
N993CF DC8 Emery
N997CF DC8 Emery
65-0220 Starlifter USAF
65-0258 Starlifter USAF
67-0012 Starlifter USAF
69-6582 C130 USAF
4215 F15 RSAF
807 Skyhawk KAF
809 Skyhawk KAF
819 Skyhawk KAF
884 Skyhawk KAF
N715A B737 Aramco
N716A B737 Aramco
N720A B737 Aramco
N710A F27 Aramco
N714A F27 Aramco
08/01/1991 Dhahran
N998CF DC8 Emery
58-6971 VC137 (707)
85-0001 Galaxy USAF
84-0088 LearJet USAF
73-22267 KingAirUSAF
73-22259 KingAirUSAF
10358 Sikorsky53 USAF
69-6566 C130 USAF
64-0615 Starlifter USAF
64-0619 Starlifter USAF
64-0648 Starlifter USAF
65-0239 Starlifter USAF
65-0260 Starlifter USAF
66-0182 Starlifter USAF
67-0002 Starlifter USAF
67-0165 Starlifter USAF
CCCP-82008 An124 AirFoyle
09/01/91 Dhahran
N628FE B747 FedEx
65-0223 Starlifter USAF
14/01/1991 Dhahran
65-0232 Starlifter USAF
65-0247 Starlifter USAF
66-0164 Starlifter USAF
66-0189 Starlifter USAF
66-0201 Starlifter USAF
67-0173 Galaxy USAF
157164 Sikorsky53 USAF
1816 Awacs RSAF
1802 B707 RSAF
N476EV B747 Evergreen
15/01/1991 Dhahran
YK-AHB B747SP SyrianAir
469 C130 RSAF
O21756 C212 USAF
16/01/1991 Dhahran
66-0202 Starlifter USAF
64-0550 C130 USAF
O22996 Blackhawk
464 C130 RSAF
19/01/1991 Dhahran
N475FE B747 FedEx
N630FE B747 FedEx
N640FE B747 FedEx
N3931A DC8 HawaiianAir
N93106 B747 TWA
N735PL DC8 ATI
63-8083 Starlifter USAF
65-0227 Starlifter USAF
67-0019 Starlifter USAF
20/01/1991 Dhahran
N618US B747 N/West
N625FE B747 FedEx
N672UP B747 UPS
N871SJ B707 SAT
9K-ADC B747 KuwaitAW
XR807 VC10 RAF
65-0277 Starlifter USAF
66-0127 Starlifter USAF
67-0168 Galaxy USAF
86-1397 C130 USAF
86-1391 C130 USAF
61-0948 C130 USAF
85-1367 C130 USAF
63-7823 C130 USAF
73-22268 KingAir
829 Skyhawk KAF
22/01/91 Dhahran
86-0019 Galaxy USAF
87-0043 Galaxy USAF
64-0633 Starlifter USAF
66-0140 Starlifter USAF
86-1395 C130 USAF
86-0089 KingAir
23/01/91 Dhahran
N870SJ DC8 SAT
5X-DAR B707 DAS
EL-JNS B707 Transway
G-BDEA B707 Anglo
KAF-325 C130 KAF
70-O467 Galaxy USAF
66-0137 Starlifter USAF
86-0087 KingAir
827 Skyhawk KAF
24/01/91 Dhahran
HB-IEI B707 Homac
N626FE B747 FedEx
69-0014 Galaxy USAF
87-0027 Galaxy USAF
64-0635 Starlifter USAF
65-9414 Starlifter USAF
66-0143 Starlifter USAF
66-0149 Starlifter USAF
66-0171 Starlifter USAF
66-0188 Starlifter USAF
66-0199 Starlifter USAF
23749 Bell212 USAF
818 Skyhawk KAF
25/01/91 Dhahran
N23UA DC8 Kalitta
N107WA DC10 WorldAW
N990CF DC8 Emery
86-0022 Galaxy USAF
63-8075 Starlifter USAF
63-8086 Starlifter USAF
67-0015 Starlifter USAF
68-0935 C130 USAF
22941 KingAir
5185 C130 SKoreaAF
886 Skyhawk KAF
701 Mirage KAF
704 Mirage KAF
706 Mirage KAF
710 Mirage KAF
715 Mirage KAF
719 Mirage KAF
764 Mirage KAF
765 Mirage KAF
766 Mirage KAF
767 Mirage KAF
01/02/91 Dhahran
HZ-110 HS125 RSAF
104 HS125 RSAF
N635FE B747 FedEx
68-0219 Galaxy USAF
73-22253 KingAir
02/02/91 Dhahran
N817EV DC8 Evergreen
67-0164 Starlifter USAF
84-0061 Galaxy USAF
102 Jetstar RSAF
25452 Apache
25430 Apache
26097 Blackhawk
3458 Tornado RSAF
04/02/91 Dhahran
G-EOCO B707 Anglo
N108WA DC10 WorldAW
24/02/91 Dhahran
3D-AFB DC8 AfricanInt
N994CF DC8 Emery
27/02/91 Dhahran
69-6583 C130 USAF
28/02/91 Dhahran
82023 F15 USAF
01/03/91 Dhahran
HZ-MS3 Gulf3 RSAF
N680UP B747 UPS
ZA291 SeaKing RAF
83-0014 F15 USAF
02/03/91 Dhahran
63-8087 Starlifter USAF
64-0627 Starlifter USAF
04/03/91 Dhahran
EP-AJO DC8 Liberia
1612 C130 RSAF
06/03/91 Dhahran
67-0023 Starlifter USAF
69-0011 Galaxy USAF
85-0006 Galaxy USAF
84-0185 KC10 USAF
83-0028 F15 USAF
07/03/91 Dhahran
65-0221 Starlifter USAF
09/03/91 Dhahran
N173DN B767 Delta
65-0216 Starlifter USAF
65-0240 Starlifter USAF
66-0185 Starlifter USAF
86-0036 KC10 USAF
10/03/91 Dhahran
4218 F15 RSAF
11/03/91 Dhahran
N477EV B747 Evergreen
N5784M KingAir
N811CK DC8 Kalitta
86-0015 Galaxy USAF
87-0030 Galaxy USAF
67DC Puma FAF
3461 Tornado RSAF
12/03/91 Dhahran
N20UA DC8 Kalitta
N641FE B747 FedEx
66-8306 Galaxy USAF
86-0011 Galaxy USAF
81866 Sherpa USAA
1505 F15
13/03/91 Dhahran
N638FE B747 FedEx
PH-MCA A310 MartinAir
64-0616 Starlifter USAF
66-0138 Starlifter USAF
66-0174 Starlifter USAF
68-0225 Galaxy USAF
4409 Blackhawk
O15927 U212
4220 F15 RSAF
XX416 Gazelle
XX453 Gazelle
XZ292 Gazelle
XZ318 Gazelle
XZ343 Gazelle
XZ347 Gazelle
16/03/91 Dhahran
66-0136 Starlifter USAF
21290 C130
2111 Dassault Guardian USCG
18/03/91 Dhahran
N93105 B747 TWA
66-0155 Starlifter USAF
66-0170 Starlifter USAF
66-7955 Starlifter USAF
69-0004 Galaxy USAF
23/03/91 Dhahran
N808CK DC8 Kalitta
N156UA B747 UA
65-0254 Starlifter USAF
69-0005 Galaxy USAF
69-0007 Galaxy USAF
66-8307 Galaxy USAF
26092 Blackhawk
26100 Blackhawk
XZ214 Lynx
XZ219 Lynx
XZ610 Lynx
XZ653 Lynx
24/03/91 Dhahran
66-0205 Starlifter USAF
66-7946 Starlifter USAF
62-1807 C130 USAF
31296 KingAir
XW909 Gazelle
XX437 Gazelle
XZ337 Gazelle
XZ338 Gazelle
XZ208 Lynx
XZ222 Lynx
XZ617 Lynx
XZ679 Lynx
XZ680 Lynx
25/03/91 Dhahran
66-0142 Starlifter USAF
26/03/91 Dhahran
N532AW B747 AmericaWest
N93109 B747 TWA
66-0192 Starlifter USAF
68-0221 Galaxy USAF
88-1864 Sherpa USAA
463 C-130 RSAF
27/03/91 Dhahran
N112WA DC10 WorldAW
30/03/91 Dhahran
N702A F27 Aramco
64-0650 Starlifter USAF
65-0249 Starlifter USAF
69-0018 Galaxy USAF
69-0025 Galaxy USAF
70-0461 Galaxy USAF
159753 Viking USN
31/03/91 Dhahran
N353AA B747 UA
N4720U B747 UA
67-0021 Starlifter USAF
63-7770 C130 USAF
86-1391 C130 USAF
4202 F15 RSAF
4214 F15 RSAF
01/04/91 Dhahran
84-0213 C130 USAF
02/04/91 Dhahran
N185AT Tristar ATA
66-0197 Starlifter USAF
84-0064 LearJet USAF
88-1307 C130 USAF
03/04/91 Dhahran
70-0457 Galaxy USAF
64-0625 Starlifter USAF
06/04/91 Dhahran
63-7834 C-130 USAF
84-0212 C-130 USAF
70-1264 C-130 USAF
23551 Blackhawk
23749 Blackhawk
4217 F-15
08/04/91 Dhahran
N728A DC8 Aramco
N791AL DC8 arrow
65-0264 Starlifter
65-9409 Starlifter
67-0014 Galaxy
23404 Blackhawk
85-1366 C130 USAF
160585 Viking USN
3762 Hawk
3763 Hawk
3764 Hawk
10/04/91 Dhahran
64-0497 C130 USAF
66-7959 Starlifter
14/04/91 Dhahran
N798AL DC8 Arrow
3D-ADV DC8 African IntAL
66-0130 Starlifter
65-0259 Starlifter
64-0636 Starlifter
65-9398 Starlifter
65-9413 Starlifter
3453 Tornado
3456 Tornado
63-7791 C130 USAF
63-7803 C130 USAF
16/04/91 Dhahran
N187AT Tristar ATA
N533AW B747 AmericaWest
65-0238 Starlifter
66-0132 Starlifter
68-0222 Galaxy
62-1849 C130 USAF
63-7879 C130 USAF
86-1398 C130 USAF
772 Tornado RSAF

Excellent post, sir... I too remember the vast array of planes during that time. Were you observing from the golf course snack bar on the Golf Course Blvd?? I remember that’s where I used to watch all this....

At US we flew BWI-FRA-KWI and we even converted a 767 into a hospital plane

AmRoOo

I was in the Engine bay at DHA and used to hang out behind the testbed watching the show.

Here is the link and the pic of after it was converted and tested when it flew to a military base

https://www.airliners.net/photo/US-Airw ... -ER/227384

Okay, interesting question here as far as rules of engagement go.

So if say Iraq had the capacity to engage these aircraft, would it be legal? It is an aircraft with a civilian paintjob, civil reg and probably flying with it's civilian callsign. But it is clearly an armed forces auxiliary vessel.

Second question is whether it is legal to use civil aircraft in this role.

tu204 wrote:

Okay, interesting question here as far as rules of engagement go.

So if say Iraq had the capacity to engage these aircraft, would it be legal? It is an aircraft with a civilian paintjob, civil reg and probably flying with it's civilian callsign. But it is clearly an armed forces auxiliary vessel.

Second question is whether it is legal to use civil aircraft in this role.

It's not clear what you mean by 'legal'. If you mean violate American law, it's clearly ok. If you mean violate some particular treaty .. I would think that no treaty disallows using civilian cargo ships/airplanes to be used in war ... that happens all the time by everyone. If you mean 'international law as understood by some people with an expansive view of the concept', then just about everything related to war violates that.

In the end ... the people with guns say it's OK. Everyone else is just writing an op-ed.

According to the Geneva conventions it’s illegal to shoot even military first aid/responders, and chaplains. Uniformed personnel or not, an aircraft serving as a med-Evac is not ‘ok’ to shoot down by any legal standards of war. Even in WW2 this was largely respected pre-Geneva conventions (but not by the Japanese).

tu204 wrote:

Okay, interesting question here as far as rules of engagement go.

So if say Iraq had the capacity to engage these aircraft, would it be legal? It is an aircraft with a civilian paintjob, civil reg and probably flying with it's civilian callsign. But it is clearly an armed forces auxiliary vessel.

Second question is whether it is legal to use civil aircraft in this role.

If you are talking about the medevac-aircraft shooting at that aircraft would be a warcrime, although the aircraft:

wikipedia on Hospital Ship wrote:

Ship must be clearly marked and lighted as a hospital ship
The ship should give medical assistance to wounded personnel of all nationalities
The ship must not be used for any military purpose
The ship must not interfere with or hamper enemy combatant vessels
Belligerents, as designated by the Hague Convention, can search any hospital ship to investigate violations of the above restrictions
Belligerents will establish the location of a hospital ship

same applies for aircraft.

If you are talking about the CRAF aircraft flying in military personnel they would be a legal target without doubt.

What does the Geneva convention say about blockades? I mean if an air blockade/no fly zone is legal, then it does not matter if the flight is civilian or military, it would be intercepted and shot down if it comes to that. Right?

bt

wirkey wrote:

tu204 wrote:

Okay, interesting question here as far as rules of engagement go.

So if say Iraq had the capacity to engage these aircraft, would it be legal? It is an aircraft with a civilian paintjob, civil reg and probably flying with it's civilian callsign. But it is clearly an armed forces auxiliary vessel.

Second question is whether it is legal to use civil aircraft in this role.

If you are talking about the medevac-aircraft shooting at that aircraft would be a warcrime, although the aircraft:

wikipedia on Hospital Ship wrote:

Ship must be clearly marked and lighted as a hospital ship
The ship should give medical assistance to wounded personnel of all nationalities
The ship must not be used for any military purpose
The ship must not interfere with or hamper enemy combatant vessels
Belligerents, as designated by the Hague Convention, can search any hospital ship to investigate violations of the above restrictions
Belligerents will establish the location of a hospital ship

same applies for aircraft.

If you are talking about the CRAF aircraft flying in military personnel they would be a legal target without doubt.

Sorry I wasn't precise.
I meant exactly flying military personnel in and out, not wounded. The CRAF aircraft I assume were not made to have some markings distinguishing say this particular TW741 carrying personnel from another TW741 carrying fare paying pax?

Something similar to the Lusitania technically being a legal target due to the fact she was carrying military cargo and being under orders to report enemy shipping and U-boats (that made her a Naval Auxiliary Vessel, technically againg)

tu204 wrote:

I meant exactly flying military personnel in and out, not wounded. The CRAF aircraft I assume were not made to have some markings distinguishing say this particular TW741 carrying personnel from another TW741 carrying fare paying pax?

Something similar to the Lusitania technically being a legal target due to the fact she was carrying military cargo and being under orders to report enemy shipping and U-boats (that made her a Naval Auxiliary Vessel, technically againg)

If it comes to the point where CRAF aircraft are a target, they’re going to have plenty of airborne protection and they’ll likely be operating out of a relatively safe airfield.

Military aircraft are better suited for the tactical aeromedical evacuation mission. Cargo and troops in, medical evacuees out. If CRAF aircraft are needed to do medical evacuation they stay configured for that role, and would most likely do the long haul portion of the flying. For example: Landstuhl Military Hospital, Germany to Walter Reed Hospital in Maryland.

QE2, carrying troops to the Falklands, went way out of the way and off-loaded in South Georgia Island to avoid the Argentine sub threat.

During the first CRAF activation, the normal routing to JED and other locations avoided Iraq by a very large margin. Later on, I flew into BSR/ORMM (Basrah) and we had plenty of air cover on the way in and there was a 10 NM exclusion zone around the base with plenty of gunships flying around just waiting to shoot anything that moved! We offloaded some Paras and downloaded the same returning to Hanover. Total time on the ground was only about 40 minutes.

tu204 wrote:

Okay, interesting question here as far as rules of engagement go.

So if say Iraq had the capacity to engage these aircraft, would it be legal? It is an aircraft with a civilian paintjob, civil reg and probably flying with it's civilian callsign. But it is clearly an armed forces auxiliary vessel.

Second question is whether it is legal to use civil aircraft in this role.

The legality of it, as governed by most western nations and international law, is covered by the Laws of Armed Conflict or LOAC. The laws are the following,

Distinction, Proportionality, Military Necessity and Unnecessary Suffering. You can see definitions here, https://loacblog.com/loac-basics/4-basic-principles/

Within those definitions I don't see why a combatant couldn't target a civilian airliner transporting troops to a war zone. You would want to ensure you confirmed that flight was being operated by or on behalf of the military but it is a legitimate target.

Do they civilian pilots get paid danger money/hazard pay?

bikerthai wrote:

What does the Geneva convention say about blockades? I mean if an air blockade/no fly zone is legal, then it does not matter if the flight is civilian or military, it would be intercepted and shot down if it comes to that. Right?

bt

The Geneva Conventions only apply to "war", with a definition that would exclude fighting insurgents. Only sovereign states count.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions

Basically, civilian aircraft are going to routed well enough away from an active war zone, even if they are carrying military personnel or cargo to protect them from danger. They will land at a nearby airfield that's firmly under friendly control to offload, where they will be moved towards the war zone via ground transportation, or via military airlifters.

Where did Iraqi War CRAF flights go did they fly into Iraq or did they only use Kuwait?

Kuwait or a Saudi base, even the C-5s without missile defenses stopped after the first few months. A C-5 and a C-17 and an chartered A300 were hit by ground fire putting an end into direct flights. I don’t think the A300 was US MIL charter, either.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I don’t think the A300 was US MIL charter, either.

DHL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Bagh ... n_incident

When the aircraft finally stopped, it was in an active minefield. Talk about having a bad day...

The usual routine I was familiar with was the people-haulers flying into outside bases: Kuwait, Saudi, Qatar, etc. Then C-130 or C-17 into the theater.

We flew on a C-5 into Turkey in 2003. However, we never crossed the border into Iraq as the Turkish govt. would not give us permission. I was in a Patriot battery at the time. When we returned to Germany we flew on a United Airlines 747-400.

In 2005 we flew on a Evergreen Air cargo 747-200 from Fort Campbell, Kentucky into Kuwait. That was one of the coolest flights I have been on. We had mattresses on the floor. Put our rifles in a box at the back of the upper deck. We hung out with the crew on the flight deck.
We took off at such an angle that the coffee maker flew off the shelf.

ANZUS340 wrote:

We flew on a C-5 into Turkey in 2003. However, we never crossed the border into Iraq as the Turkish govt. would not give us permission. I was in a Patriot battery at the time. When we returned to Germany we flew on a United Airlines 747-400.

In 2005 we flew on a Evergreen Air cargo 747-200 from Fort Campbell, Kentucky into Kuwait. That was one of the coolest flights I have been on. We had mattresses on the floor. Put our rifles in a box at the back of the upper deck. We hung out with the crew on the flight deck.
We took off at such an angle that the coffee maker flew off the shelf.

That’s funny, at the same time I was flying thru Iraq to Kuwait and Qatar on, guess what, C-5s. We crossed the border at F240 or F250 for no reason other than Ankara required the descent from cruise. We did a dive at the border, already had a climb clearance from Mosul and right back up. If done correctly, KABAN was crossed just at the required level. At KABAN, the LMs logged the entry time into the AOR, eliminating that month’s tax withholding. “KABAN Ka-Ching” was the chorus.

kitplane01 wrote:

bikerthai wrote:

What does the Geneva convention say about blockades? I mean if an air blockade/no fly zone is legal, then it does not matter if the flight is civilian or military, it would be intercepted and shot down if it comes to that. Right?

bt

The Geneva Conventions only apply to "war", with a definition that would exclude fighting insurgents. Only sovereign states count.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions

Geneva Protections extend to any armed conflict between two signatories.

Geneva Protections have been considered binding on a signatory in an armed conflict with a non-signatory that is in general observance.

Geneva Protections extend to non-state actors in the realm of international conflict.

889091 wrote:

Do they civilian pilots get paid danger money/hazard pay?

At TWA they were all volunteers and had many captain/captain pairing, IIRC.

tu204 wrote:

Sorry I wasn't precise.
I meant exactly flying military personnel in and out, not wounded. The CRAF aircraft I assume were not made to have some markings distinguishing say this particular TW741 carrying personnel from another TW741 carrying fare paying pax?

Something similar to the Lusitania technically being a legal target due to the fact she was carrying military cargo and being under orders to report enemy shipping and U-boats (that made her a Naval Auxiliary Vessel, technically againg)

Generally, a state party could issue a NOTAM or NOTMAR claiming airspace hazard or shipping hazard and engage anything supporting a war effort that entered that area. Submarines sinking merchantmen during WWII would fall into this category.

Things are little more shady when some insurgent group would try the same thing, however, as such an attack could quickly look like a terror attack directly targeting a civilian population.

To claim non-combatant status, one must have an international protective emblem (cross, diamond, or crescent) or IIRC, be obviously engaging in non-combatant, i.e. medical activity.

acecrackshot wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

bikerthai wrote:

What does the Geneva convention say about blockades? I mean if an air blockade/no fly zone is legal, then it does not matter if the flight is civilian or military, it would be intercepted and shot down if it comes to that. Right?

bt

The Geneva Conventions only apply to "war", with a definition that would exclude fighting insurgents. Only sovereign states count.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions

Geneva Protections extend to any armed conflict between two signatories.

Geneva Protections have been considered binding on a signatory in an armed conflict with a non-signatory that is in general observance.

Geneva Protections extend to non-state actors in the realm of international conflict.

I'm not a lawyer .. but what I read is "The Geneva Conventions do not recognize any status of lawfulness for combatants in conflicts not involving two or more nation states, such as during civil wars between government's forces, and insurgents. A state in such a conflict is legally bound only to observe Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions and may ignore all of the other Articles. " -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_ ... insurgents.


That's nothing like what I read. "The Geneva Conventions do not recognize any status of lawfulness for combatants in conflicts not involving two or more nation states, such as during civil wars between government's forces, and insurgents. A state in such a conflict is legally bound only to observe Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions and may ignore all of the other Articles. But each one of them is completely free to apply all or part of the remaining Articles of the Convention."

Perhaps you mean this: "Every person in enemy hands must be either a prisoner of war and, as such, be covered by the Third Convention; or a civilian covered by the Fourth Convention. There is no intermediate status; nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law"."

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Kuwait or a Saudi base, even the C-5s without missile defenses stopped after the first few months. A C-5 and a C-17 and an chartered A300 were hit by ground fire putting an end into direct flights. I don’t think the A300 was US MIL charter, either.

So your saying that all CRAF flights carrying troops and cargo during Operation Iraqi Freedom flew into Kuwait and from there they were airlifted to Iraq on a C-130 or C-17.

Or M-1, Bradley or some truck. The invasion kicked off at the border on land. Later, when we took the country, yes military lift into the country. After the A300 event, only defensive systems equipped military lift. I don’t think US CRAF ever flew in country.