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HaveBlue
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F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:34 am

A KC-130 and an F-35B collided during air to air refueling over California. Everyone survived thankfully, the C-130 made a great emergency landing with 2 engines out, leaking fuel and minus the external tank on the starboard wing. The F-35 pilot ejected safely. Here is a link with video of the F-35 actually crashing.

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/marine-corps-f35-crash-video
 
firemansparky
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:00 am

Here's a link to an interesting video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u19R0zfusiQ

In addition to the video of the F-35B crashing, there are pictures of the C-130. It appears that it only had one functioning engine (#2). Engine #1 has prop damage, in addition to the damage on #3 & #4. Could this have occurred during the landing? The fueling pod is missing as well, and fuel is pouring out of the wing. Glad everyone is OK.
 
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ssteve
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:10 pm

Some of the ATC audio is linked here:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... h-an-f-35b

However the KC-130 is inaudible for much of the descent.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:53 pm

ssteve wrote:
Some of the ATC audio is linked here:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... h-an-f-35b

However the KC-130 is inaudible for much of the descent.


Two takeaways from that tape:

1.) The Pilot Monitoring is one cool-headed dude!
2.) The LA center controller really needs to learn how to HELP emergency aircrew instead of wasting their time and comm-jamming... Winds are great, but who tells a pilot flying a barely controllable aircraft who is about to make a forced landing to copy down a phone number at LA center to call after landing?
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mxaxai
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:23 pm

What always baffles me with these military transport crash-landings is the significant damage to the aircraft on landing. The KC-390 suffered major damage to gear and fuselage in a runway overrun. The A400M was completely destroyed while landing on a relatively flat, open field. This KC-130J either lost its landing gear or didn't use it, and also damaged the #1 prop and the left fueling pod during landing.

Despite all the rough-field capability and testing, these aircraft still seem to be quite fragile.
 
aumaverick
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:51 pm

mxaxai wrote:
What always baffles me with these military transport crash-landings is the significant damage to the aircraft on landing. The KC-390 suffered major damage to gear and fuselage in a runway overrun. The A400M was completely destroyed while landing on a relatively flat, open field. This KC-130J either lost its landing gear or didn't use it, and also damaged the #1 prop and the left fueling pod during landing.

Despite all the rough-field capability and testing, these aircraft still seem to be quite fragile.


There is a huge difference in performing a planned rough-field landing on what is intended to be a unpaved landing strip versus an 'unintended landing' onto a surface never intended to support aircraft activity. In the case of the KC390, a runway overrun is exactly that, an unplanned incursion outside of normal operation. The A400 landing in an open field is not the same as a performing a rough-field approach into an unpaved landing strip. This most recent incident of a KC-130J is far from anywhere close to a rough-field approach. The Herc was forced to crash-land into a farm field under dire circumstances.

You may want to go back and review what parameters are set for these aircraft' rough-field capabilities versus the actual events. Tactical airlift aircraft are rugged, but not impervious to damage brought on by crashes.
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Nomadd
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:15 pm

mxaxai wrote:
What always baffles me with these military transport crash-landings is the significant damage to the aircraft on landing. The KC-390 suffered major damage to gear and fuselage in a runway overrun. The A400M was completely destroyed while landing on a relatively flat, open field. This KC-130J either lost its landing gear or didn't use it, and also damaged the #1 prop and the left fueling pod during landing.
Despite all the rough-field capability and testing, these aircraft still seem to be quite fragile.

What part of "crash landing" are you having trouble with?
 
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ssteve
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:02 pm

There is an image here that shows no flap extension on the side with no propellors (I think).
https://news.usni.org/2020/10/01/marine ... -collision

Same may go for opposite side
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjIONDkWAAI ... name=large

Also, I suspect that the landing gear were not extended, not lost.
 
checksixx
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:00 am

mxaxai wrote:
What always baffles me with these military transport crash-landings is the significant damage to the aircraft on landing. The KC-390 suffered major damage to gear and fuselage in a runway overrun. The A400M was completely destroyed while landing on a relatively flat, open field. This KC-130J either lost its landing gear or didn't use it, and also damaged the #1 prop and the left fueling pod during landing.

Despite all the rough-field capability and testing, these aircraft still seem to be quite fragile.


The difference being that the A400 that crashed was actually "crashing" and not actually attempting a landing.
 
Noray
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:11 pm

checksixx wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
What always baffles me with these military transport crash-landings is the significant damage to the aircraft on landing. The KC-390 suffered major damage to gear and fuselage in a runway overrun. The A400M was completely destroyed while landing on a relatively flat, open field. This KC-130J either lost its landing gear or didn't use it, and also damaged the #1 prop and the left fueling pod during landing.

Despite all the rough-field capability and testing, these aircraft still seem to be quite fragile.


The difference being that the A400 that crashed was actually "crashing" and not actually attempting a landing.

It did try to land, but there were several electricty pylons in that "flat open field". As they were at only 1500 feet altitude when they lost three engines during takeoff, the pilots had little energy to play with from the beginning. Still they tried to return to the airport. When they understood that they couldn't make it back, it was too late to look for an ideal off-field landing solution. At their touchdown point, they were just 1 km short of an industrial zone and had to cope with overhead power lines and a number of electricity pylons in their way. While trying to avoid the largest of these, they hit the ground with the left wing tip first, but still the pylon clipped the right wing, causing a huge fuel fire which completely destroyed the aircraft.
 
checksixx
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:28 pm

Noray wrote:
checksixx wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
What always baffles me with these military transport crash-landings is the significant damage to the aircraft on landing. The KC-390 suffered major damage to gear and fuselage in a runway overrun. The A400M was completely destroyed while landing on a relatively flat, open field. This KC-130J either lost its landing gear or didn't use it, and also damaged the #1 prop and the left fueling pod during landing.

Despite all the rough-field capability and testing, these aircraft still seem to be quite fragile.


The difference being that the A400 that crashed was actually "crashing" and not actually attempting a landing.

It did try to land, but there were several electricty pylons in that "flat open field". As they were at only 1500 feet altitude when they lost three engines during takeoff, the pilots had little energy to play with from the beginning. Still they tried to return to the airport. When they understood that they couldn't make it back, it was too late to look for an ideal off-field landing solution. At their touchdown point, they were just 1 km short of an industrial zone and had to cope with overhead power lines and a number of electricity pylons in their way. While trying to avoid the largest of these, they hit the ground with the left wing tip first, but still the pylon clipped the right wing, causing a huge fuel fire which completely destroyed the aircraft.


They turned back to attempt a landing somewhere, yes. When they impacted the ground they were well into a stall. The hard impact caused the breakup and fire of the aircraft. The right wing never struck any of the power pylons...you just think that because you looked at a picture. Try researching it a bit.....

Again...comparing the two is asinine as they are very different.
 
Noray
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:15 pm

checksixx wrote:
They turned back to attempt a landing somewhere, yes. When they impacted the ground they were well into a stall. The hard impact caused the breakup and fire of the aircraft. The right wing never struck any of the power pylons...you just think that because you looked at a picture. Try researching it a bit.....

Again...comparing the two is asinine as they are very different.

I concur with your last sentence but not so much with the rest. As far as I know, the official crash report is classified. So how can you be so sure? I made my own judgement by looking at many pictures from various perspectives (not only these.) I also identified the crash location in Google Earth. In the historical images there (imagery date: 7/23/2015; pylon has already been repaired), you can even see the aircraft's trace on the ground. It passes inbetween several pylons, the distance of which is too small for the A400M with its more than 42 m wingspan to survive this unscathed. In some of the post-crash images you can even see the tilted pylon (at the left side behind the fireball in this image). Here you see the left wing touch the ground just as the other wing is about to collide with the large pylon. For whatever reason, flaps were not extended. Maybe because there wasn't enough space left for a soft landing?

This video on aeronewstv.com shows screenshots from FR24.com (at 00:25) with the flight path aiming towards the airport and not to the farmlands north of it. While the speed and altitude graphs from FR24.com may not be reliable, they seem to show the aircraft approaching the ground at a shallow angle and with sufficient speed? At 00:39, the video shows an aerial view of the crash site with the damaged pylon on the right side of the traces and very close to the traces of the fuselage. A few meters behind that pylon, a large dark soot trace begins and accompanies the right side of the aircraft's trace to where it came to a stop about 200 meters further behind. A much smaller soot trace can be seen to the left of the aircraft's trace, possibly caused by the left engine.

So I don't actually know what forces contributed most to the aircraft's destruction and to what degree the pilots were still in control, but I'm quite sure that they attempted something that looked like a landing, and the electricity pylons did play a role.
 
aumaverick
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:03 pm

Back on topic, but what is the suspected cause of the collision between the F-35 and the KC-130?
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checksixx
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:37 am

Noray wrote:
So I don't actually know what forces contributed most to the aircraft's destruction and to what degree the pilots were still in control, but I'm quite sure that they attempted something that looked like a landing, and the electricity pylons did play a role.


Here's the difference, without all that unnecessary stuff you linked....

The C-130 involved in the collision with the F-35 'landed' in a survivable, extremely low decent rate. You've compared it to the A400 'landing', which I'll just call a crash, in which they were in an extremely high and unsurvivable decent rate. As you pointed out, the A400 crew had not even configured the aircraft for a 'landing'.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:20 pm

Just curious as to why a turbo prop plane is refueling a high performance jet fighter. I realize both are USMC but the match up does not seem wise.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:28 pm

Because they’re BOTH USMC assets working together. It pretty much MC doctrine they work together which is why they have their own refueling planes.
 
Ozair
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:22 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Just curious as to why a turbo prop plane is refueling a high performance jet fighter. I realize both are USMC but the match up does not seem wise.

In addition to GalaxyFlyers comments it isn’t unusual for the KC-130 to refuel fighter aircraft. Indonesia refuelled their Flankers via their KC-130

Image

and the KC-130 has refuelled just about every current western fighter aircraft, fitted for hose and drogue, currently in service.

For example,
Along with the KC-767A, the strategic tanker asset of the Italian Air Force, the KC-130J was extensively used during the Air War in Libya refueling all the Italian planes supporting NATO’s Operation Unfied Protector: Eurofighter Typhoons, Tornado IDSs and ECRs, and AMXs.

https://theaviationist.com/2012/01/12/kc-130j/

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Image

F-5s and Mirages
Image

F-4 and A-4
Image
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:41 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Just curious as to why a turbo prop plane is refueling a high performance jet fighter. I realize both are USMC but the match up does not seem wise.


I think a better question is 'why not?'.

The Marines are all about utility and effects, and if a piece of equipment isn't utilitarian or multipurpose they don't want it. The KC-130 operates in that perfect Venn diagram of speed ranges so that it can go very, very slow to refuel helicopters as well as (relatively) fast to refuel jets. In other words, it can refuel any air-refuelable aircraft in the Marine Corps inventory. On top of all that, it carries Marines and their crap wherever they want AND can carry weapons and prosecute targets in support of the Marine Commander on the ground. The best part about the KC-130? It says 'MARINES' on the fuselage and the dudes and dudettes who fly it all have 'USMC' on their name tags. Apart from not fitting on the small boats, the KC-130 is perfection for the Marines. There is a reason the Marine Corps has operated them since 1962... Indeed, with only 3 air refueling accidents in 55 years and the capability it brings, I would say that match up has been VERY WISE.

It's funny how people can't wrap their heads around a C-130 refueling fast jets at altitude today, but for whatever reason don't bat an eye at the fact that C-130s are at damn near their stall speed and at very low level whilst refueling helicopters. To say nothing that it used to refuel much less user-friendly aircraft, a la the F-4, F-8, A-6, etc.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:56 pm

Heck, look at what KC-97s refueled—B-47, F-100 to top the list of nearly incompatible tanker/receiver combinations. I just missed refueling off the -97, thank God.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:16 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Heck, look at what KC-97s refueled—B-47, F-100 to top the list of nearly incompatible tanker/receiver combinations. I just missed refueling off the -97, thank God.


Very true, but even they had it relatively good; gotta hand it to these dudes.

Image
"I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook, and, by gum, it put them on the map!"
 
Newark727
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:55 am

LyleLanley wrote:
Very true, but even they had it relatively good; gotta hand it to these dudes.

Image


Lord, does this ever look like an accident waiting to happen.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:56 am

Well the KC-130 can refuel from the KC-46, and nearly every plane that can refuel using H & D can do it on either.
 
WIederling
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:56 am

checksixx wrote:
As you pointed out, the A400 crew had not even configured the aircraft for a 'landing'.


That is not a hard requirement for a "survivable landing".
What killed them was rate of descent and attitude.
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zanl188
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:51 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Well the KC-130 can refuel from the KC-46, and nearly every plane that can refuel using H & D can do it on either.


Can the KC-130 refuel off the boom? I don’t believe it can. HC-130J can do it though.

Air Force units flying the HC-130 have the low speed drogue. This limits them to refueling helos and v-22s. Does USMC have high and low speed drogues?
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aumaverick
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:28 pm

HaveBlue wrote:
A KC-130 and an F-35B collided during air to air refueling over California. Everyone survived thankfully, the C-130 made a great emergency landing with 2 engines out, leaking fuel and minus the external tank on the starboard wing. The F-35 pilot ejected safely. Here is a link with video of the F-35 actually crashing.

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/marine-corps-f35-crash-video


This post is slightly going off topic with discussion around the air refueling capabilities between aircraft; questions around this might warrant their own post.

Back to the original topic: has there been any release noting what the initial cause of the accident was other than "collision". What caused the highly advanced F-35 to collide with the Herc in clear skies during daylight? Is this a pilot error on the part of the F-35? Was it an equipment malfunction with the hose & drogue?
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LyleLanley
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:37 pm

Nope.

Not trying to be a d!ck, but those who know can’t say and those who are saying are only speculating. This is a major mishap; the cause will be released to the masses when the SIB is finished.

I can say I haven’t heard of any interim guidance regarding F-35s - the kind of critical info that would be released in an FCIF and is important enough to be released to units before the SIB is concluded. Generally, this lack of interim guidance often happens when the problem isn’t system-wide; I.e. pilot error, but we’ll see.
"I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook, and, by gum, it put them on the map!"
 
aumaverick
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:42 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
Nope.

Not trying to be a d!ck, but those who know can’t say and those who are saying are only speculating. This is a major mishap; the cause will be released to the masses when the SIB is finished.

I can say I haven’t heard of any interim guidance regarding F-35s - the kind of critical info that would be released in an FCIF and is important enough to be released to units before the SIB is concluded. Generally, this lack of interim guidance often happens when the problem isn’t system-wide; I.e. pilot error, but we’ll see.


No ill intent noted, and appreciate the feedback, LL. I can't imagine this was something systemic with the aircraft or refueling system (i.e. hose/drogue). Though, to your point, this mishap not warranting interim guidance is worrisome. Was this something other than a routine refueling sortie that created a challenging situation?
I'm just here so I won't get fined. - Marshawn Lynch
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:13 pm

aumaverick wrote:
No ill intent noted, and appreciate the feedback, LL. I can't imagine this was something systemic with the aircraft or refueling system (i.e. hose/drogue). Though, to your point, this mishap not warranting interim guidance is worrisome. Was this something other than a routine refueling sortie that created a challenging situation?


Difficult questions, because there are many grey areas and interplay between systemic problems and pilot error. We obviously won't know for awhile, but a few things: mishaps are one of the key ways we learn of errors of all types, pilot error or systemic, but even the pilot errors often shine light on systemic issues that are either unseen, brushed under the rug, or otherwise tolerated. Mistakes usually don't happen in a bubble.

For instance, the Eglin F-35 crash shines light on the atrocious human factors involved in that aircraft for flying an ILS approach and for fighter pilots' general cultural aversion to going around when their approach sucked - they don't want to be "that guy". It's easy to say the pilot should've gone around being so fast, but you can't neglect many of the systemic factors which contributed to his crash, such as the reflection of his HMD. Same with the KC-135 over Kyrgyzstan. It's easy enough to say they should've simply recognized and applied counter dutch roll inputs, but the real question is why didn't they think of that? Is 10 minutes of briefings during initial qual years before, as well as 10 different rudder checklists that all seem to be saying the same thing setting them up for failure? The holes in the Swiss cheese aligned perfectly.

Last point is it's often the routine things that will bite you, precisely because you're not expecting it. You're generally more relaxed when everything is going smoothly and as expected, but when something is non-standard or unanticipated, you usually pay more attention. It's the same reason why communication errors are more likely to occur when the pilot and ATC speak the same language - you're on your toes and really paying attention when they have an accent and/or say something you don't quite understand.
"I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook, and, by gum, it put them on the map!"
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: F-35B & KC-130 Mid Air

Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:36 am

The Drive has some good photos of the C-130

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... california

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