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keesje
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Re: FCTM: A CN-235 & C-130H successor to be designed by Airbus?

Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:23 am

FlapOperator wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
Sounds purely like a job creation/retention project.


This.

I'd love to see the pedigree of analysis that demonstrates the mission of this aircraft.


BS IMO. Operational requirements outgrew the early fifties C130 design. Too small. Even USAF requirements were suppressed time after time. C130 is used as a school book example of pork barrel contracts, job creation. USAF states they don't need them, still get them. Incredible.

https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1998/1 ... pork-diet/
https://tomdispatch.com/jeremiah-goulka ... o-of-pork/
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... id-19-bill

A400M and C-17 operators need smaller transports to avoid those expensivecaircraft flying around a few pallets / folks. Preferably STOL, I wonder if twin engines is the best configuration for that.. Maybe 3 engines would be the best compromise but practical configurations seem hard..
https://images.app.goo.gl/xkiuaHGFash9d57Q7
 
texl1649
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:16 pm

I wonder why the Luftwaffe (as did the French) is taking C-130J’s as a pork barrel project for Lockheed? LOL. It has 24 nations operating the type, also including the UK, Denmark, and Canada. Yes, it’s (relatively) cheap, robust, available, widely supported, and easy to train/operate for a lot of customers, maybe that has also helped it over time.

The idea envisaged above of putting two TP-400’s on some sort of derivative (or even a tiltrotor!) seems like the participating countries didn’t learn a think from the A400M. Those engines, and the cost to operate them, are precisely why the A400M sales have not been easily double what they could have been (and thus why Airbus has written off/lost billions on the program over the years). Keesje also at one time envisaged the A400M taking a ton of orders from the C-130, and even going to the USAF, so I think that explains some of the comparative passionate dislike for the latter aircraft, though there is some truth that the ANG units have gotten more than they have needed/asked for.

The age of a design doesn’t really matter if it is still the best option. See: the Tu-95’s still operating.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:17 pm

One thing lost in the C-130 buy was how much of that was supposed to support the Stryker brigades mobility.

It was a terrible concept, borne from a flawed idea that future US ground combat efforts would like Bosnian peacekeeping. The combination of speed of mobility and the -130 as the prime mover meant lots of limitations were baked into Stryker (especially when there demonstrated better AFV platforms out there.)

The Army thankfully let the Stryker global mobility concept die (really only as late as 2008ish) but the USAF, once a supporter of this idea rapidly started to complain when it was obvious that the -130 buy was eating into other programs, and the real flaws of USAF intratheater airlift in Iraq and Afghanistan were becoming crystal clear.
 
Noray
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Re: FCTM: A CN-235 & C-130H successor to be designed by Airbus?

Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:11 am

FlapOperator wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
Sounds purely like a job creation/retention project.


This.

I'd love to see the pedigree of analysis that demonstrates the mission of this aircraft.

It helps to look at where the French C-235s are now deployed. France has vast overseas territories all over the world, much of it made up of tiny islands in remote areas, as well as bases in foreign countries, where the French Air & Space Force needs to be present, but the constant deployment of an A400M (or lots of them as there are so many islands and bases) is neither required nor adequate.

So, at least according to Wikipedia, C-235s are (among others) stationed in French Guiana, Tahiti, New Caledonia, Reunion, Djibouti, Chad, and many of these C-235s have replaced older Transalls there.

Another use case is paratrooper training at tiny airstrips that are often placed inside or near Para/SF bases. The German army is currently renting civilian M-28 Skytrucks for this purpose.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: FCTM: A CN-235 & C-130H successor to be designed by Airbus?

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:02 am

keesje wrote:
Operational requirements outgrew the early fifties C130 design. Too small.


A400M and C-17 operators need smaller transports to avoid those expensive aircraft flying around a few pallets / folks. Preferably STOL,

It is hard to believe these two sentences were in the same post and so close together. You are trying incredibly hard to justify why the C-130J shouldn't be purchased.

Calling the C-130J program pork barrelling is laughable when it is operated by so many nations. It is the exact size most nations need for day to day delivery of pallets / folks. You just admitted it is needed for pallets / folks.

A twin engine A400M the size of the C-130J on the other hand is 100% pork barrelling. France and Germany are already accepting the C-130J. They just really r hate having to accept US equipment A new program cost divided over 100 aircraft would see it costing more than double of the C-130J. At most the Airbus product might fly 5% faster/further or 5% shorter takeoff roll than the C-130J. How that can be justified is beyond me.

Unless it is a game changing STOVL design.
 
Noray
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Re: FCTM: A CN-235 & C-130H successor to be designed by Airbus?

Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:37 am

RJMAZ wrote:
keesje wrote:
Operational requirements outgrew the early fifties C130 design. Too small.


A400M and C-17 operators need smaller transports to avoid those expensive aircraft flying around a few pallets / folks. Preferably STOL,

It is hard to believe these two sentences were in the same post and so close together. You are trying incredibly hard to justify why the C-130J shouldn't be purchased.

It's no contradiction to those who know the Transall, that had a larger cargo hold and better soft field capabilities than the C-130.

RJMAZ wrote:
A twin engine A400M the size of the C-130J on the other hand is 100% pork barrelling. France and Germany are already accepting the C-130J. They just really r hate having to accept US equipment A new program cost divided over 100 aircraft would see it costing more than double of the C-130J. At most the Airbus product might fly 5% faster/further or 5% shorter takeoff roll than the C-130J. How that can be justified is beyond me.

Unless it is a game changing STOVL design.

Would it be asked too much to keep your jealousy of non-US programmes out of this thread about a European programme? It must be jealousy, because I know that you know about the national economic/tax effects of building your own aircraft vs. buying abroad. You also know about the French desire for strategic autonomy.
 
texl1649
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:54 pm

Once again this is really akin to the Boeing KC-46 in many regards, an expensive, very lengthy development process, many billions in write offs/rescue efforts for the project, and now speculation that Airbus would consider working toward a miniaturized version seems a bit preposterous. Airbus is a well run organization imho and I'd expect them to strongly resist any pressure to throw money at a baby A200M.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/22/airbus- ... n-ceo.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-airb ... 2R20100305

Airbus has written off at least 8 billion Euro's on the A400M.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-43069630

The A400M was meant to be the flagship of Airbus' military fleet - but the programme has been dogged by seemingly endless delays, technical problems and what the chief executive, Tom Enders, has described as a 'flawed contractual set-up".

As a result, the heavy-lifter has ended up being a financial deadweight on the company. The new write-off of €1.3bn takes the total so far to more than €8bn.


This isn't of course to bash the program (or otherwise play some silly game of US vs. Europe), but rather to point out a lot of this is attributable to the incredibly long process it took to launch the aircraft finally in 2003. FIMA (Future International Military Airlifter) started waaaay back in 1982, but it was only finally launched in 2003. 30 years of changing studies/programs/requirements was simply...too long.

Airbus almost certainly would have selected the PW180 in 2002 for it but...all of the TP400 problems to follow were driven by silly decisions, obviously not driven by performance/specs/costs. I sincerely hope this new effort does not take 30 years to finally launch a plane and does not similarly repeat the TP400 mistakes, as the actual capability would be quite good/of interest. I do think the US will go with a quad tiltrotor eventually (to finally replace the Hercs), but doubt we see anything flying before 2040 on that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A400M_Atlas
 
FlapOperator
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Re: FCTM: A CN-235 & C-130H successor to be designed by Airbus?

Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:36 am

Noray wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
Sounds purely like a job creation/retention project.


This.

I'd love to see the pedigree of analysis that demonstrates the mission of this aircraft.

It helps to look at where the French C-235s are now deployed. France has vast overseas territories all over the world, much of it made up of tiny islands in remote areas, as well as bases in foreign countries, where the French Air & Space Force needs to be present, but the constant deployment of an A400M (or lots of them as there are so many islands and bases) is neither required nor adequate.

So, at least according to Wikipedia, C-235s are (among others) stationed in French Guiana, Tahiti, New Caledonia, Reunion, Djibouti, Chad, and many of these C-235s have replaced older Transalls there.

Another use case is paratrooper training at tiny airstrips that are often placed inside or near Para/SF bases. The German army is currently renting civilian M-28 Skytrucks for this purpose.


I think the A400 makes tremendous sense for the French, and as you note is reflective of French global operations, and the desire to retain military independence and capability. It's how the A400M fits into the other militaries I wonder about. A shrunken twin engine A400 derivative doesn't seem to accomplish anything a C-235 or -130 doesn't, both of these representing a fraction of the cost of new design.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: FCTM: A CN-235 & C-130H successor to be designed by Airbus?

Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:02 am

FlapOperator wrote:
A shrunken twin engine A400 derivative doesn't seem to accomplish anything a C-235 or -130 doesn't, both of these representing a fraction of the cost of new design.

Apparently it is about national economic/tax effects of building your own aircraft vs. buying abroad and the French desire for strategic autonomy.....

I think the C-27J is the solution for the major A400M operators. It can fit full size 463L pallets the same as the C-130. It can also fit a light vehicle and two dozen troops.

Statistics calculated by a large number of Air Forces in the world, show that
more than 75% of military transport flights are performed with less than 10 Tons of cargo and
less than 50 soldiers.

In fact, the Italian and Hellenic Militaries found that their average load for support missions were
around the 6 tons. The Australian Army found that during relief operations in East Timor, that
average load was 3 tons.

https://www.ordinariat.sk/data/att/106685.pdf

I have mentioned it before but the C-27J-30 would take the world by storm. This is my hypothetical model similar to the C-130J-30. A small stretch of 2.7m allows an extra pallet on the main deck.

The cargo bay volume was a good match for the original G.222 with its lower payload weight and MTOW. The C-27J NG has a max payload weight increase of 29% over the original G.222 it could now definitely do with some extra cargo volume. A C-27J-30 could then effectively replace the C-130H one for one. The C-27J doesn't have an overload configuration like the CN-295 or C-130J. It's payload and MTOW are rated for full 2.5G. This means there is significant performance available for when in overload.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:35 am

I think the -27J would have taken the DOD by storm, but Norty Schwartz killed it.
 
texl1649
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:25 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
I think the -27J would have taken the DOD by storm, but Norty Schwartz killed it.


Slovenia just ordered one from the Italians. I do think it still has some good life left in it. Pretty good aircraft.

https://militaryleak.com/2021/11/19/slo ... ment-deal/

Australian elephant walk with C-27J's:

Image

In 2007, the C-27J was selected as the Joint Cargo Aircraft (JCA) for the United States military; these were produced in an international teaming arrangement under which L-3 Communications served as the prime contractor. In 2012, the United States Air Force (USAF) elected to retire the C-27J after only a short service life due to budget cuts; they were later reassigned to the U.S. Coast Guard and United States Special Operations Command. The C-27J has also been ordered by the military air units of Australia, Bulgaria, Chad, Italy, Greece, Kenya, Lithuania, Mexico, Morocco, Peru, United States, Romania, Slovakia, Zambia and an undisclosed country.


I dunno about the winglets mattering much, but the next gen model might pull in some more orders in the coming years. If this product is available from Leonardo/within the EU shortly, what is really needed by the FMTC?

https://theaviationist.com/2020/12/30/l ... the-world/
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:49 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Slovenia just ordered one from the Italians. I do think it still has some good life left in it. Pretty good aircraft.

Quite a few smaller air forces have purchased the C-27J. It is now up to 16 operators.

To maximize airlift for any given budget operating fewer types will always have an advantage. Operating say C-17, A400M, C-130, C-27J and CN-235 would no doubt cover the entire spectrum of missions but it would provide less capability than compared to purchasing say just the A400M and C-27J. A much larger larger quantity of aircraft can be operated for the same budget.

Many say the C-17 and C-130J is the best combo with the C-130J being the perfect size below to cover a very large spectrum of missions. The C-130J has 26% of the MTOW of the large C-17. Now with the A400M, 26% of the size is 37t which is getting very close to the C-27J NG. The A400M and C-27J would provide an excellent strategic/tactical combo.

It seems the KC-130J tanker is also one of the primary selling points for operating the Hercules for both France and Germany. I wonder if the C-27J could be made to refuel helicopters. Even just a single drogue from the rear cargo hold could work well. I doubt the C-27J has the wingspan to refuel one helicopter per wing.
 
Schroinx
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:47 pm

From reading this tread it seems is the FMTC is targeting lower than the 130J, close to the C27J. That seems rather odd as the C27J is fairly new and already covers the range. If the goal where more aimed for making a commercial succesfull project, I would tend to think that the 130J/KC-390 range would be the one to target?
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:08 am

Schroinx wrote:
From reading this tread it seems is the FMTC is targeting lower than the 130J, close to the C27J. That seems rather odd as the C27J is fairly new and already covers the range. If the goal where more aimed for making a commercial succesfull project, I would tend to think that the 130J/KC-390 range would be the one to target?


The C-27J had its first flight in 1999, and has since sold ~90 frames. And its main design dated back to the G.222, a development of the 1960s. The similar sized C295 had its first flight in 1998, has sold around 190 copied and is based on the C-235, itself dating back to the early 1980.

Which ever way you twist it: both will be around 30 years old when first flight of the FMTC will happen, and probably around 35 years of age when first deliveries will occur. In other words: the FMTC will be the follow-on to both the C295 and C-27. And given the limited sales success of both - less than 300 frames in total in 25+ years - a joint project is more likely than two separate ones.
 
texl1649
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:54 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Schroinx wrote:
From reading this tread it seems is the FMTC is targeting lower than the 130J, close to the C27J. That seems rather odd as the C27J is fairly new and already covers the range. If the goal where more aimed for making a commercial succesfull project, I would tend to think that the 130J/KC-390 range would be the one to target?


The C-27J had its first flight in 1999, and has since sold ~90 frames. And its main design dated back to the G.222, a development of the 1960s. The similar sized C295 had its first flight in 1998, has sold around 190 copied and is based on the C-235, itself dating back to the early 1980.

Which ever way you twist it: both will be around 30 years old when first flight of the FMTC will happen, and probably around 35 years of age when first deliveries will occur. In other words: the FMTC will be the follow-on to both the C295 and C-27. And given the limited sales success of both - less than 300 frames in total in 25+ years - a joint project is more likely than two separate ones.


It would seem to me to be irrationally exuberant about the FMTC prospects to assume it could be delivered so quickly, given the previous experience with the A400M program precursors. If the bigger European powers wanted to evolve either the C295 or C-27 further, it could be done and realistically very little actual advantages would come from a pricier, all new FMTC vs. those programs, regardless of the age of their predecessor/original precursor designs. They are sturdy frames, capable in this space, and realistically could even figure out a way to joint-produce the product in Germany-France if that is the real goal (likely).

That the C-130, a design from the 50’s, continues to win foreign sales (including Germany/France) this millennium is a testament to the fact that (a) it was designed quite well, and (b) cost/support (training/parts) matter for airlifters. The C-27 is perhaps just ‘too Italian’ at this time for some in the EU.
 
Schroinx
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:56 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Schroinx wrote:
From reading this tread it seems is the FMTC is targeting lower than the 130J, close to the C27J. That seems rather odd as the C27J is fairly new and already covers the range. If the goal where more aimed for making a commercial succesfull project, I would tend to think that the 130J/KC-390 range would be the one to target?


The C-27J had its first flight in 1999, and has since sold ~90 frames. And its main design dated back to the G.222, a development of the 1960s. The similar sized C295 had its first flight in 1998, has sold around 190 copied and is based on the C-235, itself dating back to the early 1980.

Which ever way you twist it: both will be around 30 years old when first flight of the FMTC will happen, and probably around 35 years of age when first deliveries will occur. In other words: the FMTC will be the follow-on to both the C295 and C-27. And given the limited sales success of both - less than 300 frames in total in 25+ years - a joint project is more likely than two separate ones.


That makes sense, though Spain should join as well?
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:18 am

texl1649 wrote:

That the C-130, a design from the 50’s, continues to win foreign sales (including Germany/France) this millennium is a testament to the fact that (a) it was designed quite well, and (b) cost/support (training/parts) matter for airlifters. The C-27 is perhaps just ‘too Italian’ at this time for some in the EU.


The USAF argument against the -27J was that the cost per flight hour was high enough to not really be a savings against a -130J. I don't believe it personally, but I could see the analysis driving that way.
 
texl1649
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:04 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
texl1649 wrote:

That the C-130, a design from the 50’s, continues to win foreign sales (including Germany/France) this millennium is a testament to the fact that (a) it was designed quite well, and (b) cost/support (training/parts) matter for airlifters. The C-27 is perhaps just ‘too Italian’ at this time for some in the EU.


The USAF argument against the -27J was that the cost per flight hour was high enough to not really be a savings against a -130J. I don't believe it personally, but I could see the analysis driving that way.


I dunno, some of that I’m sure was just politics. I’ve read somewhere that the Herc costs on the average of $30K/flight hour to operate. I have a tough time thinking a plane with half of the identical engines would cost anywhere north of $20K/hour. Yes, call a spade a spade; a lot of politics went into the financial argument for the type’s early retirement, imho. Yes, EADS/Airbus claimed the C-295 costs half as much to maintain/fuel and has some record of wins (Philipines etc) but the Hercules is just a different cost scale, imho.

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org ... oast-guard

The USAF basically made up the numbers it needed to justify retiring the new aircraft, and noted it could repair the Herc fleet ‘organically’ so no costs involved vs. Leonardo (pure shenanigans, in other words);

https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2012/0 ... uth-vacuum

Rand corp. analysis found/assumed it costs 70% of what a C-130J would cost to operate per hour, and per ton delivered the CH-47’s would cost 10 times more.

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/p ... _OP254.pdf
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:23 pm

Just to be clear, I don't view a "driven analysis" as a positive thing; on the contrary, as I stated before I believe Norty Schwartz killed it to save his community since the C-23s showed that the MC-130 specifically and the greater USAF intra-theater airlift program was not fit for purpose or responsive to tactical tasking in Iraq.

Of course the USAF stacked the analytical deck to do a a-net level of due diligence, followed by chopping it, immediately after convincing the Army leadership he wouldn't.

Just to be clear, I don't think the C-27's death in Army and later USAF service was "just politics." It was interservice budgetary politics of the lowest sort, that was done for completely service/community centric reasons and completely ignored the customer's preference, i.e. the troops requiring the lift.
 
texl1649
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:23 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
Just to be clear, I don't view a "driven analysis" as a positive thing; on the contrary, as I stated before I believe Norty Schwartz killed it to save his community since the C-23s showed that the MC-130 specifically and the greater USAF intra-theater airlift program was not fit for purpose or responsive to tactical tasking in Iraq.

Of course the USAF stacked the analytical deck to do a a-net level of due diligence, followed by chopping it, immediately after convincing the Army leadership he wouldn't.

Just to be clear, I don't think the C-27's death in Army and later USAF service was "just politics." It was interservice budgetary politics of the lowest sort, that was done for completely service/community centric reasons and completely ignored the customer's preference, i.e. the troops requiring the lift.


I didn’t really track it all that closely but no reason to doubt you on it. The USAF has for a long time prioritized keeping the Army from getting any niche fixed wing operations back if it can be avoided, at all costs, including the mission for the warfighter. This is a space to watch moving forward as we talk about possible tiltrotor successors the next two decades for the Hercules itself.

The politics are pretty disgusting, imho, but there is no avoiding it, then, now, or in the future specifications/decisions. The same is perhaps the case on the other side of the pond dealing with the FMTC requirements phase vs. the C-27/C-295 etc.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:57 pm

texl1649 wrote:

I didn’t really track it all that closely but no reason to doubt you on it. The USAF has for a long time prioritized keeping the Army from getting any niche fixed wing operations back if it can be avoided, at all costs, including the mission for the warfighter. This is a space to watch moving forward as we talk about possible tiltrotor successors the next two decades for the Hercules itself.

The politics are pretty disgusting, imho, but there is no avoiding it, then, now, or in the future specifications/decisions. The same is perhaps the case on the other side of the pond dealing with the FMTC requirements phase vs. the C-27/C-295 etc.


Exactly. I think the Euros get hung up on the US complaining about the 2% spending requirement (where the US has the better part of argument, in my opinion, and it is not just the Europeans, but the Canadians as well.) I think most Americans, for their part, don't understand the truly Byzantine, nationally driven, criminally under-resourced scrum that is inter-European defense procurement, from even my admittedly outsider perspective (though I claim some insight as I qualify for 2 or 3 CSDP Service medals.)

As I once explained to a senior officer why there was so much infighting during an EU exercise, let alone a real-world deployment (where deployed EU staffs and forces work surprisingly well) I related the famous joke "Why are college faculty fights so vicious? Because the stakes are so small."

As an outsider, I until you see the small scale many European militaries are operating on, its hard to really grasp the limitations and requirements of their forces.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:14 pm

texl1649 wrote:
If the bigger European powers wanted to evolve either the C295 or C-27 further, it could be done and realistically very little actual advantages would come from a pricier, all new FMTC vs. those programs, regardless of the age of their predecessor/original precursor designs.


I would be curious if future airlift in this space would be mostly composites or metal. Even if they are nearly the same weight, composites might have better long term costs due to lack of corrosion and fewer stress-and-age-related problems. But composites might be harder to make minor repairs to. It would be interesting to see which choice is favored.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:00 pm

texl1649 wrote:
I dunno, some of that I’m sure was just politics. I’ve read somewhere that the Herc costs on the average of $30K/flight hour to operate. I have a tough time thinking a plane with half of the identical engines would cost anywhere north of $20K/hour.

I don't have a tough time thinking that. I am certain the C-27J would be above two thirds of hourly cost of the C-130J. The C-27J has the same crew of 3. Parts cost would be higher for the C-27J due to lower economy of scale.

With a small fleet size I could see the C-27J costing up to 75% of the hourly cost of the C-130J as the aircraft ages. Now unless you have lots of cargo flights with small loads then it does not make sense as this advantage rarely gets used.

What kills the C-27J cost benefit analysis would be while it costs 65-70% to operate it can carry only 40% of the cargo weight over 1,500nm. Approximately 18t vs 7t using available payload range curves.

Doing regular cargo 5 C-27J would be required to do the same job as 2 C-130J. Now even if the C-27J has an optimistic 60% of the hourly cost of the C-130 then the C-27J costs 50% more when it is 5 aircraft versus 2.

I guess it was unfair for the USAF comparing it mainly to the C-130J. The C-27J would have replaced some Chinook flights and this is where the C-27J would have been much cheaper.

I think the main reason was that the USAF only needs a certain amount of tactical airlifters and Lockheed needs to sell a certain number of C-130J aircraft to keep production running at a profitable and competitive rate. If the USAF started to get a huge fleet of C-27J then C-130J production might go into a death spiral as the USAF couldn't take as many even if forced.

FlapOperator wrote:
Just to be clear, I don't think the C-27's death in Army and later USAF service was "just politics."
I think the US army getting tactical airlifters was a big issue. This problem will have to be solved for the quad tilt rotor. The Army should get full control and budget boost to operate the tilt rotor. The USAF will then lose most of its C-130J budget. That will be a big fight.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:18 pm

All this analysis might be true, but its irrelevant if the USAF isn't willing to create the doctrine that makes them do the intratheater airlift mission properly. And guess what the GWOT taught us? The USAF ISN'T willing to do the mission despite getting resourced to do it, and the Army Aviation community doesn't care because its not an Apache.

There are many reasons the USMC, USN and USCG retain -130s.
 
IADFCO
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:03 am

The tiltrotor fans here have a point. The quadrotor could double up as a weapon. Imagine a formation of 5 of these in low speed, low altitude flight. The enemy forces that are not disabled by the noise of the 20 rotors would be swept away by their combined downwash... :stirthepot:
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:24 am

Back to the Europe requirement. I'm trying to think of possible reasons this could get the green light.

Europe has seen the C-130 remain in production for 65 years. The C-141 production came and went. C-17 production came and went. A400M has come and will go. It seems only the medium size tactical airlift market is large enough to permanently sustain a production run for multiple decades. Europe might be aiming for a long sustained program to take the reigns from the C-130J.

I could easily see the USAF no longer ordering the C-130J beyond 2030 once a quad tilt rotor is available. Lockheed will lose economy of scale and will then have a tough time competing against a technically superior twin engine aircraft of similar size made in Europe.

Would two Europrop TP400-D6 have lower purchase and operating costs compared to four Rolls-Royce AE 2100? Technically it should be able to. A cleansheet twin engine design with fewer parts, rivets and more composites should have lower maintenance than the old Hercules.

Performance wise a cleansheet twin from Europe should be able to beat the C-130J by 10% in all specs. If it is equal size it should be able to fly 10% further with 10% more payload at 10% greater speed all while operating from 10% shorter runways at 10% lower cost per hour.

Now all it comes down to is getting the manufacturing cost and purchase price low enough. Once the C-130J loses economy of scale it's unit cost might increase by 30%. This gives Europe room to make a profit with jts superior twin even if it charges a premium.

Europe just has to hope that a stubborn US government doesn't force Lockheed to fit new engines and 8 blade props to the C-130J and then places another order for 300 Hercules. This would make it impossible for a European Cleansheet twin engine design to win on cost/performance.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:24 am

FlapOperator wrote:
One thing lost in the C-130 buy was how much of that was supposed to support the Stryker brigades mobility.

It was a terrible concept, borne from a flawed idea that future US ground combat efforts would like Bosnian peacekeeping. The combination of speed of mobility and the -130 as the prime mover meant lots of limitations were baked into Stryker (especially when there demonstrated better AFV platforms out there.)

The Army thankfully let the Stryker global mobility concept die (really only as late as 2008ish) but the USAF, once a supporter of this idea rapidly started to complain when it was obvious that the -130 buy was eating into other programs, and the real flaws of USAF intratheater airlift in Iraq and Afghanistan were becoming crystal clear.

Incorrect; the Stryker brigades were meant for increased strategic mobility compared to the rest of the US Army force. Remember that the bulk of the US Army's ground combat vehicle force is tracked; this means that if you intend on moving tracked vehicles long distance, you are forced to make sure that either:
1. You have enough prime movers and trailers to load the vehicles and carry them that way;
2. be close to a rail head and transport the brigade via rail;
3. If you have absolutely no options, run on the road, and accept significantly increased wear and tear requiring frequent halts for maintenance and dramatically increased fuel usage, assuming your tracks don't tear up the roads in the first place.

In contrast, a Styker brigade can be self-deployed as it is a primarily wheeled force; it can run on the roads and highways with little need for halts for maintenance. It can also get to a location quicker as a result, and deploy its assets as a fast rapid reaction force that's more heavily armed and protected than just a light infantry brigade that is travelling via unarmoured Humvees. In fact, all of the Stryker brigades are converted from light infantry or cavalry units that didn't have any armoured vehicles as part of their force; at best, they got unarmoured Humvee's and trucks to move soldiers around in.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:12 am

ThePointblank wrote:
[
Incorrect; the Stryker brigades were meant for increased strategic mobility compared to the rest of the US Army force. Remember that the bulk of the US Army's ground combat vehicle force is tracked; this means that if you intend on moving tracked vehicles long distance, you are forced to make sure that either:
1. You have enough prime movers and trailers to load the vehicles and carry them that way;
2. be close to a rail head and transport the brigade via rail;
3. If you have absolutely no options, run on the road, and accept significantly increased wear and tear requiring frequent halts for maintenance and dramatically increased fuel usage, assuming your tracks don't tear up the roads in the first place.

In contrast, a Styker brigade can be self-deployed as it is a primarily wheeled force; it can run on the roads and highways with little need for halts for maintenance. It can also get to a location quicker as a result, and deploy its assets as a fast rapid reaction force that's more heavily armed and protected than just a light infantry brigade that is travelling via unarmoured Humvees. In fact, all of the Stryker brigades are converted from light infantry or cavalry units that didn't have any armoured vehicles as part of their force; at best, they got unarmoured Humvee's and trucks to move soldiers around in.


So with a SBCT, you had a force with none of the virtues of light infantry and all of the logistics requirements of mech infantry (Strykers need gas and maintenance, too) with none of the firepower of a mech force (the 105 MGS was stillborne, and everyone knew it, leaving a 50 cal or Mk19 as the prime fire weapon) with next to no fires (mortars and I think two sections of 777s), no real ADA, limited CBRN and two maneuver and one recon element.

A SBCT has all of the liabilities of a Soviet Motorized Rifle Regiment and none of its virtues. The Stryker itself was designed to fit in a C-130 per its mobility requirement, but can't do it with any fight from the ramp capability like fuel, inflated tires or survival add-ons like an RPG cage. So, its really not much more protected than a MRAP/HMMWV. Really, what the grunt gets from the Stryker is some really Gucci comms and sensors.

Like I said, the scenario you posit is Bosnia, and maybe Panama, and not anything like a forced entry or MCO against anything like a peer adversary. That's not surprising as most of the pedigree of the SBCT and the Stryker itself was from the limitations of the 1980/1990s heavy/light mix of US Army combat formations. Army officers looked at the LAV and at the MEUs inherent mobility and fires and said, "lets make a 'fight from ramp' capability except our ramp is the -130."

Senior Army leadership didn't like it when they were told by their own analysts "The US has a fight from the ramp capability with near global mobility, called airborne and Rangers, and near follow-on with light armor and organic fires, Role III medical, area ADA, etc. called the MEU. Follow on to the MEU is the MPF. Why are we replicating this capability?"

Lots of C-130s were helped along the procurement trail with the idea we can move SBCTs with them (along with the requirement to support like the Army's likely grossly oversized airborne capability.)

Now, there might be an argument that the overall size and economy of scale of the C-130 is its greatest virtue, regardless of how we got there. Frankly, if I had to CHOOSE between a -130 and -27J fleet, I'd be hard-pressed to chose the -27J (as much as a partisan I was of the project) if I could see myself doing everything from basic trash-hauling to HARVEST HAWK type COIN stuff to Major Combat operations with the same airframe with basically turn key support.
 
Noray
Topic Author
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:36 am

French online publication La Lettre A reports that Airbus is reluctant to invest in the development of a smaller tactical transport aircraft demanded by the French Air and Space Force and would rather sell more A400Ms instead.
https://www.lalettrea.fr/entreprises_de ... 737405-bre (paywall)
https://twitter.com/LaLettreA/status/14 ... 5665318912
 
aumaverick
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:15 pm

Noray wrote:
French online publication La Lettre A reports that Airbus is reluctant to invest in the development of a smaller tactical transport aircraft demanded by the French Air and Space Force and would rather sell more A400Ms instead.
https://www.lalettrea.fr/entreprises_de ... 737405-bre (paywall)
https://twitter.com/LaLettreA/status/14 ... 5665318912


Makes complete sense. Why invest in a new aircraft when you (EU) haven't demonstrated an appetite for what you already have ordered.
 
art
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Re: FCTM: A CN-235 & C-130H successor to be designed by Airbus?

Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:26 pm

Ozair wrote:
Finally, taking five to six billion Euros from Europe to develop this aircraft is an utter waste of European Recovery Fund. At the moment 13.2 Billion Euro is set aside for security and defence, I would be stunned that this project could take half of that planned funding.


Une folie française? (a nuts French idea?)
 
Noray
Topic Author
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:45 pm

France, Germany, Sweden launch future transport aircraft -- Janes

France, Germany, and Sweden have agreed development of a new fixed-wing medium-lift transport aircraft, it was announced on 30 June.

The French Ministère des Armées reported the agreement, saying that the three countries launched the Future Mid-Size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) programme during the Armée de l'Air et de l'Espace (AAE)-hosted French Presidency of the Council of the European Union (PFUE) European Wings event.

“It was during this event on 23 June that an agreement was signed for the Future Mid-Size Tactical Cargo (FMTC), a tactical transport aircraft project replacing, by 2040, the [Lockheed Martin] C-130 Hercules and Casa [Airbus Defence and Space (DS)] CN235 fleets. Supported by the European Defence Agency (EDA), this agreement allows the definition of the aircraft intended to operate in addition to the [Airbus DS] A400M fleet from 2040,” the AAE said.


docmtl posted this to another thread:
docmtl wrote:
And now Europe is going on a tender for a medium-sized airlifter, which seems to emulate the C-130/KC-390 specs. Leading nations are France, Germany and... Sweden (which partners with Embraer on the Grippen NG fighter jet for the Brazilian Air Force, but as not chosen the KC-390 to replace its C-130H and now could even develop a competing airplane)

I wonder whether Embraer can pitch their plane in this with Netherlands/Portugal/Czech/other European countries contents and local production/assembly and have a chance to win it ?....

Transcript and link below:

"The European Commission has launched a call for tenders to study the feasibility of “the possible development of a future tactical transport aircraft”.

"European transport aircraft were recently involved in several critical operations. These included the COVID-19 relief effort and the evacuation out of Afghanistan. “Beyond their pure military role, tactical transport aircraft are also key assets for a better civil defence/protection and EU-internal needs, with critical contribution to disaster relief, search-and-rescue and sanitary crises response,” the European Defence Fund document explains.

The Future Mid-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) program aims to replace the aging tactical aircraft currently in operation among European air forces, including the C-130 Hercules, the CASA C295, or the recently retired Transall C-160. It involves France, which will operate as the coordinator country, Germany and Sweden.

The proposed aircraft will fulfil the need for a smaller alternative to the Airbus A400M Atlas in order to operate on narrow and short unprepared strips.

“Besides the A400M, which is on the high-performance side of the capacity, the initial conception of the majority of currently operating tactical aircraft [...] is now 40 years old, and there is a need for a new medium tactical European aircraft, lighter than the A400M that could provide a complementary capacity for tactical transport,” the document reads.

The feasibility study will have to identify the needs for transport aircraft in Europe by 2050, and potential development opportunities among member states of the European Defence Fund and their partners. The tender will end on November 24, 2022. "

https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3149 ... fter-study

docmtl


And here's is the original announcement from the French MOD:

European Wings : signature d’un accord entre trois pays européens

According to the announcement, the aim is to replace the C-130 and the CN-235 by 2040.
The C-130J will be more than 40 years old then.
All you hyperventilating C-130 fans, relax for a second or two.
 
art
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:05 am

Sweden decided not to upgrade its old C-130's or to replace them with new C-130's or to replace them with KC-390's and instead is reported to be aiming to buy used C-130's from Italy. The Italian C-130's in question are reported to have been delivered between 2000-2005. I wonder if they will last until FMTC EIS, projected to be by 2040.

https://theaviationist.com/2022/06/15/s ... rom-italy/
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:04 pm

Aiming to replace the 23t MTOW CN-295 and the 70t MTOW C-130.

Sounds like a perfect job for the 32t MTOW C-27J NG.

I can't see them using two Europrop TP400 engines from the A400M as that is going to result in a fairly large and expensive C-130J sized aircraft. Far too large to replace the CN-295 and the C-130J could probably beat it on price.

https://airinsight.com/atr-unveils-next ... turboprop/

ATR plans to launch in 2023 an improved ATR-72 using the Pratt & Whitney PW-127XT. The only logical idea would be for this new transport aircraft to have high commonality with the ATR. Look at the CN-295 and ATR-72 specs and they are VERY similar in size.

CN-295
Wingspan: 25.81 m
Wing area: 59 m2
MTOW: 23,200 kg
Engine: PW127G 1,972kw

ATR-72
Wingspan: 27.05m
Wing area: 61.0 m2
MTOW: 23,000 kg
Engine: PW127M 1,846 kW

So they could share wings, engines, systems, cockpit and tail. Like the AN-148 passenger and AN-178 transport aircraft. The transport could have a wider/shorter fuselage and adds an extra set of main landing gear wheels.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-148
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-178
 
steman
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:28 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Aiming to replace the 23t MTOW CN-295 and the 70t MTOW C-130.

Sounds like a perfect job for the 32t MTOW C-27J NG.

I can't see them using two Europrop TP400 engines from the A400M as that is going to result in a fairly large and expensive C-130J sized aircraft. Far too large to replace the CN-295 and the C-130J could probably beat it on price.

https://airinsight.com/atr-unveils-next ... turboprop/

ATR plans to launch in 2023 an improved ATR-72 using the Pratt & Whitney PW-127XT. The only logical idea would be for this new transport aircraft to have high commonality with the ATR. Look at the CN-295 and ATR-72 specs and they are VERY similar in size.

CN-295
Wingspan: 25.81 m
Wing area: 59 m2
MTOW: 23,200 kg
Engine: PW127G 1,972kw

ATR-72
Wingspan: 27.05m
Wing area: 61.0 m2
MTOW: 23,000 kg
Engine: PW127M 1,846 kW

So they could share wings, engines, systems, cockpit and tail. Like the AN-148 passenger and AN-178 transport aircraft. The transport could have a wider/shorter fuselage and adds an extra set of main landing gear wheels.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-148
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-178


How are you going to effectively replace a 70T MTOW C-130s with a platform that weighs less than half (the 32T C-27J NG)?
Furthermore, the C-27J has lost against the C-295 in many competition, although being much more capable, mostly because it´s much more expensive to procure and operate.
And I don´t see Airbus deciding to work with Leonardo to adapt their main competitor to their needs.

I think the C-130 is really hard to replace and may end up being the DC3 of tactical cargo aircrafts, where many tried to replace it but never really managed to do it succesfully.

I really like the Kawasaki C-2. I think a westernised / Nato compatible variant would be perfect. The FMTC Partners could well work with Japan to adapt the C-2 to their needs. But it´s not going to happen just like it didn´t happen with the AN-70 a couple of decades ago.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:01 am

steman wrote:
How are you going to effectively replace a 70T MTOW C-130s with a platform that weighs less than half (the 32T C-27J NG)?

They are also replacing the 23t MTOW C-295 with the same aircraft. So the aircraft has to be much smaller than the 70t MTOW C-130.

Also remember that the A400M is in the picture for most operators. So heavy or long range C-130 flights can be done by the A400M. The light and short ranged C-130 flights could be done by the C-27J.

steman wrote:
And I don´t see Airbus deciding to work with Leonardo to adapt their main competitor to their needs.

It wouldn't matter how perfect the product was Airbus would never take another design. They are far too stubborn and the French must have full control. But the C-27J with a few of the niggling problems fixed is exactly what is needed as a small compliment to the A400M.

steman wrote:
I really like the Kawasaki C-2. I think a westernised / Nato compatible variant would be perfect. The FMTC Partners could well work with Japan to adapt the C-2 to their needs. But it´s not going to happen just like it didn´t happen with the AN-70 a couple of decades ago.

I am also a huge fan of the C-2. The C-2 is nearly identical in size to the A400M so Europe would be better off buying more A400M. I do think the USAF might consider an evolved C-2 that is built in the US by either Boeing or Lockheed Martin. While it wouldn't be a direct replacement for the C-17 or C-130J it is half way in between. 2 C-17 loads can be split between 3 C-2 aircraft. The C-2 could also perform the longer/heavier C-130J missions. This allows the C-130J to be replaced by a short range STOVL tactical transport.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:41 am

I wonder if Spain is in the picture for this aircraft, too.
As after all, the C295 and A400M are built by Airbus in Spain.
They would then lose the final assembly of the next transporter - as it'd be built in one of the partner nations sites surely.
 
steman
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:16 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
steman wrote:
And I don´t see Airbus deciding to work with Leonardo to adapt their main competitor to their needs.

It wouldn't matter how perfect the product was Airbus would never take another design. They are far too stubborn and the French must have full control. But the C-27J with a few of the niggling problems fixed is exactly what is needed as a small compliment to the A400M.
.


And if Airbus is not going to develop it, who is going to do it? Dassalt and Saab?
Leonardo is out of the picture as long as Italy is not involved and even though the ItAF has a requirement for just this kind of plane,
it will never be in the numbers needed to have Leonardo lead the program.

It´s going to be an interesting one to watch for sure.

If the Kawasaki C-2 is too big and too close to the A400M than maybe the solution could be the KC390 which Airbus could buy from Embraer and modify in Europe to meet NATO requirements.
Not a full blown finaly assembly line but just a rework.
Last edited by steman on Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
art
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:25 pm

Looking for foreign participants in the project?

India’s Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) has signed a contract with Russia’s United Aircraft Corp Transport Aircraft (UAC-TA) to co-develop the 15- to 20-metric-ton-payload multirole transport aircraft (MTA). The pair formed a joint venture, Multirole Transport Aircraft Ltd, in 2010, following an inter-governmental agreement three years earlier.


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -airlifter

That project was abandoned so I guess India could be interested in joining the European project.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:56 pm

art wrote:
Looking for foreign participants in the project?

India’s Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) has signed a contract with Russia’s United Aircraft Corp Transport Aircraft (UAC-TA) to co-develop the 15- to 20-metric-ton-payload multirole transport aircraft (MTA). The pair formed a joint venture, Multirole Transport Aircraft Ltd, in 2010, following an inter-governmental agreement three years earlier.


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -airlifter

That project was abandoned so I guess India could be interested in joining the European project.
Well India did buy 56 C295 with most being assembled in India. So who knows if they'll be interested.

https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/pres ... 5-aircraft
 
Schroinx
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FMTC - Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo - EU project

Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:27 pm

Germany, France, and Sweden have signed the first agreement.

"Future Mid-Size Tactical Cargo (FMTC), a tactical transport aircraft project that will replace the C-130 Hercules and Casa CN-235 fleets from 2040."

Development starts in 26-27.

"But even if the design results in an aircraft that is «half an A400M», this would leave it below a direct competitor in the C-130 replacement market, the Embraer C-390 Millennium, which has been winning orders in Europe. And in turn, it would leave it well above the capabilities of the CN-235 (which has a maximum take-off weight of 16,500 kg and a payload of almost 6t), which it would also have to replace.

The aeronautical engineers in charge of the project will have to get highly creative."

https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/07/fm ... -aircraft/

https://www.pesco.europa.eu/project/fut ... argo-fmtc/

The engineers will indeed.

Good to see that they are working on a common EU project. If the EU wants strategic autonomy, we have to build our own defense hardware.
 
texl1649
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Re: FMTC - Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo - EU project

Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:17 pm

Which flies first, this or a quad tiltrotor to replace the Herc in the US? 2050?
 
aumaverick
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Re: FMTC - Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo - EU project

Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:12 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Which flies first, this or a quad tiltrotor to replace the Herc in the US? 2050?


Honestly, neither. Cost alone makes this FMTC aircraft a unicorn. A shrink of an A400 leaves it being still too big of a replace for the CASA and not as capable as the C-130J or Embraer. The USAF and Army will also need to determine if a replacement for the Herc will reside with the Army or the Air Force, and/or if the USAF will want and need a stealthy option for something to support the front lines. The Bell HSVTOL might be a silver bullet for both, but it won't be cheap and is still a concept.

https://newatlas.com/military/bell-advanced-hsvtol-tiltrotor-concepts/
 
petertenthije
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Re: FMTC - Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo - EU project

Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:05 pm

aumaverick wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
A shrink of an A400 leaves it being still too big of a replace for the CASA and not as capable as the C-130J or Embraer.

Why would it be less capable then a C-130J or an Embraer? The new design has not even been drafted yet. Not sure if even the requirements have been drafted.

It will be more expensive and later on the market, as it needs to be designed first, but beyond those two factors everything is still open.

Not saying costs and timelines are irrelevant, mind you. But there does not seem to be an urgent requirement. There are plenty of transports in Europe. C-17s, A400s, C-130s, C-295s, C-27s. And then there are close ties with various operators of An-12s, An-124s and Il-76s. Admittedly, many of those were Ukrainian and Russian companies, which is not helping us now.

Besides, generally speaking the willingness for operations far beyond Europe tends to be limited. Except for the French and the Brits, you won’t see many European militaries operating much beyond North/Central Africa and the middle-east. The reason the French and Brits go beyond is mostly due to their overseas territories.

Even with the current mess in Ukraine, the European aviation component is relatively limited. Most goes by truck or train. A convenience the USA of course does not have.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: FMTC - Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo - EU project

Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:39 am

petertenthije wrote:
Why would it be less capable then a C-130J or an Embraer? The new design has not even been drafted yet. Not sure if even the requirements have been drafted.

Less capable doesnt mean inferior. The smaller size should make it a better tactical airlifer. The assumption is that it will use two Europrop TP400 engines. Twin engines need extra headroom for one engine out performance. For instance the C-27J has two of the same engines used on the C-130J yet it only has approximately 41% of the MTOW. 41% of the A400M MTOW is 57,800kg.

60t MTOW is the perfect size for a tactical airlifter in my opinion. Slightly lighter than the C-130J but a twin engine A200M should be able to match the payload of the older but highly popular C-130H. If you need to replace the CN-295 then a A200M is a much better choice than the A400M despite the A200M being much heavier.

The A400Ms wide cross section is sized to fit some tracked vehicles and some helicopters. If we look at the 463L military pallet and smaller tactical wheeled vehicles the A400M is a poor choice. For instance the C-130J-30 carries 8 pallets yet the A400M carries only 9 pallets. The wider A400M cross section has a lot of wasted space when carrying pallets or tactical wheeled vehicles. The CN-295 is too skinny to fit the tactical vehicles and full height 463L pallets.

So we are looking at an aircraft nearly identical to the C-160 Transall in size and weight. Funny that was the aircraft that the A400M was meant to replace. The extra engine power should give it excellent STOL performance.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: FMTC - Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo - EU project

Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:45 am

petertenthije wrote:
Why would it be less capable then a C-130J or an Embraer? The new design has not even been drafted yet. Not sure if even the requirements have been drafted.

Less capable doesnt mean inferior. The smaller size should make it a better tactical airlifer. The assumption is that it will use two Europrop TP400 engines. Twin engines need extra headroom for one engine out performance. For instance the C-27J has two of the same engines used on the C-130J yet it only has approximately 41% of the MTOW. 41% of the A400M MTOW is 57,800kg.

60t MTOW is the perfect size for a tactical airlifter in my opinion. Slightly lighter than the C-130J but a twin engine A200M should be able to match the payload of the older but highly popular C-130H. If you need to replace the CN-295 then a A200M is a much better choice than the A400M despite the A200M being much heavier.

The A400Ms wide cross section is sized to fit some tracked vehicles and some helicopters. If we look at the 463L military pallet and smaller tactical wheeled vehicles the A400M is a poor choice. For instance the C-130J-30 carries 8 pallets yet the A400M carries only 9 pallets. The wider A400M cross section has a lot of wasted space when carrying pallets or tactical wheeled vehicles. The CN-295 is too skinny to fit the tactical vehicles and full height 463L pallets.

So we are looking at an aircraft nearly identical to the C-160 Transall in size and weight. Funny that was the aircraft that the A400M was meant to replace. The extra engine power should give it excellent STOL performance.

Though I have suggested a tilt rotor with two TP400 engines would be brilliant. 78% more thrust than the V-22. It would be big enough carry 3 Pallets or a single tactical vehicle. That would probably be the most valuable aircraft in a conflict.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: FMTC - Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo - EU project

Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:08 am

RJMAZ wrote:
The A400Ms wide cross section is sized to fit some tracked vehicles and some helicopters. If we look at the 463L military pallet and smaller tactical wheeled vehicles the A400M is a poor choice. For instance the C-130J-30 carries 8 pallets yet the A400M carries only 9 pallets. The wider A400M cross section has a lot of wasted space when carrying pallets or tactical wheeled vehicles. The CN-295 is too skinny to fit the tactical vehicles and full height 463L pallets.


Well, that's a poor choice only for the one using pallets only below half their max weight capability.
Now load the pallets closer to their capacity, let's say ~4t, you will be limited to load 4-5 pallets in the C-130, then one could argue this is a lot of wasted space too.
 
aumaverick
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Re: FMTC - Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo - EU project

Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:19 pm

petertenthije wrote:
aumaverick wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
A shrink of an A400 leaves it being still too big of a replace for the CASA and not as capable as the C-130J or Embraer.

Why would it be less capable then a C-130J or an Embraer? The new design has not even been drafted yet. Not sure if even the requirements have been drafted.

It will be more expensive and later on the market, as it needs to be designed first, but beyond those two factors everything is still open.

Not saying costs and timelines are irrelevant, mind you. But there does not seem to be an urgent requirement. There are plenty of transports in Europe. C-17s, A400s, C-130s, C-295s, C-27s. And then there are close ties with various operators of An-12s, An-124s and Il-76s. Admittedly, many of those were Ukrainian and Russian companies, which is not helping us now.

Besides, generally speaking the willingness for operations far beyond Europe tends to be limited. Except for the French and the Brits, you won’t see many European militaries operating much beyond North/Central Africa and the middle-east. The reason the French and Brits go beyond is mostly due to their overseas territories.

Even with the current mess in Ukraine, the European aviation component is relatively limited. Most goes by truck or train. A convenience the USA of course does not have.


From the original article posted, the analysis is that the shortened A400M based aircraft
would leave it below a direct competitor in the C-130 replacement market, the Embraer C-390 Millennium, which has been winning orders in Europe. And in turn, it would leave it well above the capabilities of the CN-235 (which has a maximum take-off weight of 16,500 kg and a payload of almost 6t), which it would also have to replace.

https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/07/fmtc-project-birth-of-a-new-european-medium-tactical-transport-aircraft/

So if the idea is to create a hypothetical A200M, it reads that this midget Grizzly won't be as capable as a C-130J or C-390, and well in excess of the existing CN-235. Less capable than an existing platform would provide the argument not to buy it, whereas buying too much aircraft may be cost prohibitive. I don't see how a midget Grizzly would suffice, much less be cheaper to develop versus buying the existing aircraft available.
 
Schroinx
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Re: Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo (FMTC) News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:18 pm

Any chance Italy and Spain will join in?
Let's hope Airbus get a bigger say, so they can also try and make it commercially more competitive.
It sounds like two planes. A 390/130 competitor and a smaller CN-235/C-27/ C-160? Would it make sense to make two who share a lot of commonality and systems?
 
RJMAZ
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Re: FMTC - Future Medium-size Tactical Cargo - EU project

Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:40 pm

aumaverick wrote:
So if the idea is to create a hypothetical A200M, it reads that this midget Grizzly won't be as capable as a C-130J or C-390, and well in excess of the existing CN-235. Less capable than an existing platform would provide the argument not to buy it, whereas buying too much aircraft may be cost prohibitive. I don't see how a midget Grizzly would suffice, much less be cheaper to develop versus buying the existing aircraft available.

You assume the CN-235/295 is the perfect size and that the users are happy with it. Currently they are splitting pallets, removing antenna and gun mounts from light vehicles to fit inside. Drivers have to sit in the vehicle in flight as they can't open the doors. This is why the RAAF selected the C-27J instead of the CN-295.

Image

The CN-295 is only good for carrying troops. That is great for small countries but for a high end force the A400M aircraft are being abused doing short hops with light payloads because the CN-235/295 is too small. This is why the C-130J continues to sell. France and Germany both recently had to purchase C-130J.

Another key benefit, once A400M production ends around 2030 the A200M can take over the rough STOL and Austere tactical work. The A400M can then have a long life doing easier strategic work. This is what the USAF did with the C-5 fleet once the C-17 arrived. So A400M replacement then gets pushed out to beyond 2050 resulting in money saved.

The A200M with a MTOW around 60t would probably be the size where it could permanently remain in production. The market is much bigger as aircraft get smaller. I could easily see 500 A200M sold. Most C-130 operators would be using the A200M by 2050.

Development cost should also be low. Cockpit, engines and systems can be reused. It wouldn't surprise me if many landing gear components could be reused. Each pair of main landing gear has its own strut and retract mechanism so they could go from a 6 wheel MLG to a 4 wheel MLG and put on smaller wheels. Going any smaller than 60t MTOW and very few A400M parts could be reused.

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