Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 5142
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:39 pm

On Nov. 20, Parliament cleared a €2.7 billion deal for 31 NH90 helicopters in the "Sea Tiger" variant for the German Navy in ASW role.

The selection of the NH90 Sea Tiger maritime helicopter as the replacement for the Lynx fleet in service since the 1980s.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... licopters/

Image
mercure f-wtcc
 
User avatar
SAS A340
Posts: 914
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 5:59 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:51 am

Very good choice and it looks like they will be well equipped with torpedos and missiles too. :thumbsup:
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
Noshow
Posts: 2206
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:46 am

They tune up their military spending big time it seems. Like requested by the Donald.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10180
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:59 am

Actually it is exactly the plan agreed upon in 2014.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2206
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:51 am

The spending "target" (long term) was what was agreed. Now the US demanded immediate execution.
The German political "revenge" seems to be that they order national or European products only and not the expected US ones like heavy helicopters.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10180
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:26 pm

The budget increase was defined in 2014. The purchases of equipment are covered by those. The Donald has nothing to do with it.
 
GDB
Posts: 14115
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:55 pm

Noshow wrote:
The spending "target" (long term) was what was agreed. Now the US demanded immediate execution.
The German political "revenge" seems to be that they order national or European products only and not the expected US ones like heavy helicopters.


There you go again, fact free nonsense trying to prop up a busted flush.
As stated and as known by anyone with any grasp of the subject, the agreement to raise spending was made before that clown got near the WH.
As for 'revenge' spending, wow, you actually think that?
Never mind the German Armed Forces already use it for SAR and in the utility role for ground forces, not to mention Germany is an industrial partner in the project.

Seems that the soon to leave (whether he likes it or not) occupant of the WH spread more than Covid to his supporters, his Narcissism too it seems.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2206
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:32 pm

Maybe you check your own facts first?
The 2014 summit communiqué demands that NATO members whose contribution is below two percent must move towards it in the coming 10 years, i.e. until 2024. This is laid down in the communiqué in a highly stilted manner and is a typical example of a compromise formula in contentious NATO questions.

"Towards two percent until the year 2024" does not equal "move it up to two percent within the year 2020" as you might agree to.

https://www.baks.bund.de/de/node/2036

Germany has recently delayed some expected big order for CH-47 or CH-53 that was bound to happen. Maybe you missed that too? It has very much to do with the assertive tone of the parting US government. While they have finalized a big order for Eurofighters and Sea Lions.
 
GDB
Posts: 14115
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:06 pm

Here is the whole agreement, the spending part is at Para 14, the REAL reasons behind it follow, ironically the actions of one of Donald's favourites, inevitably an autocrat as he wished to be.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/offi ... 112964.htm.

The pressure put on those not spending enough, from 45's predecessor, is well known outside of the fantasy world of Trumpland, it was well enough reported at the time, at least for those paying attention.

For me at least, what counts is what nations do, even if it means that some who may only slowly reach that target but do nonetheless contribute to missions, such as the airpolicing to give an example, rather than others, who might spend more but seem a lot more interested in ancient feuds with each other, (yes I'm thinking of two members in the Southern European area).
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10180
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:20 pm

Noshow wrote:
Maybe you check your own facts first?
The 2014 summit communiqué demands that NATO members whose contribution is below two percent must move towards it in the coming 10 years, i.e. until 2024. This is laid down in the communiqué in a highly stilted manner and is a typical example of a compromise formula in contentious NATO questions.

"Towards two percent until the year 2024" does not equal "move it up to two percent within the year 2020" as you might agree to.

https://www.baks.bund.de/de/node/2036

Germany has recently delayed some expected big order for CH-47 or CH-53 that was bound to happen. Maybe you missed that too? It has very much to do with the assertive tone of the parting US government. While they have finalized a big order for Eurofighters and Sea Lions.


It simply has to do with the fact, that the offers were much higher than the available budget. So the requirements need to be adjusted. (especially in the fields of technology transfer and IP rights)
 
Noshow
Posts: 2206
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:44 pm

That's the official version.
For some reason the prices seem to have skyrocketed right after that immediate "spending target" for Germany got communicated by the US government. The germans halted their selection process and even want to start it new from scratch. So they might even include two stronger engined CH-47 versions that were not in the game before or do something else.
Airbus already had plans for their own HTH transport helicopter and Airbus needs to keep their engineers busy.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:58 pm

Noshow wrote:
That's the official version.


that's convinced, if your narrative doesn't fit reality just claim it as the "official version". :roll:

Anyhow Trump has nothing to do with it and Trump has lost, so he has become irrelevant.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Noshow
Posts: 2206
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:05 pm

The order is not on hold there will be a new process. That's a fact.
It sometimes helps to not only read the official communique with diplomatic language if you can't look behind it.
I don't care if you like Trump or not but he influenced recent developments whether you like it or not.
 
IADFCO
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:14 pm

Please please please -- can you please keep Trump out of this? On this side of the pond the elections are barely over (or not, according to some) and we come from months and months of yelling and screaming.

How about discussing the technical merits of the decision? I tend to follow the helicopter part of the ecosystem reasonably closely but I don't know much about the NH-90. Can anybody comment on how it's behaving in the field? Is it easy to maintain? Good performance?
 
texl1649
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:52 pm

IADFCO wrote:
Please please please -- can you please keep Trump out of this? On this side of the pond the elections are barely over (or not, according to some) and we come from months and months of yelling and screaming.

How about discussing the technical merits of the decision? I tend to follow the helicopter part of the ecosystem reasonably closely but I don't know much about the NH-90. Can anybody comment on how it's behaving in the field? Is it easy to maintain? Good performance?


The NH-90 has uniquely in it’s class been a disaster in mission capable rates. Across many different users. I am not sure as to the specs here but the Germans in 2018, prior to discontinuing public release of readiness info, reported 12 percent mission capable rates.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... for-combat

Realistically, this is a political procurement, which is fine, but it is questionable as to which operators of NH-90’s have found the maritime variants to be ‘good’ or acceptable in their reliability.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201701 ... ter-flaws/

It’s a beautiful design, but has had maintainability problems for essentially all operators from day one. I’m curious what German tax payers might perceive as to justify this acquisition, since it’s quite a questionable frame moving forward. It’s not a model likely to endure much longer, imho.
 
Noray
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:27 am

texl1649 wrote:
IADFCO wrote:
Please please please -- can you please keep Trump out of this? On this side of the pond the elections are barely over (or not, according to some) and we come from months and months of yelling and screaming.

How about discussing the technical merits of the decision? I tend to follow the helicopter part of the ecosystem reasonably closely but I don't know much about the NH-90. Can anybody comment on how it's behaving in the field? Is it easy to maintain? Good performance?


The NH-90 has uniquely in it’s class been a disaster in mission capable rates. Across many different users. I am not sure as to the specs here but the Germans in 2018, prior to discontinuing public release of readiness info, reported 12 percent mission capable rates.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... for-combat

Realistically, this is a political procurement, which is fine, but it is questionable as to which operators of NH-90’s have found the maritime variants to be ‘good’ or acceptable in their reliability.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201701 ... ter-flaws/

It’s a beautiful design, but has had maintainability problems for essentially all operators from day one. I’m curious what German tax payers might perceive as to justify this acquisition, since it’s quite a questionable frame moving forward. It’s not a model likely to endure much longer, imho.

Lots of bashing combined with limited in-depth knowledge, laced with second-rate "sources" (propaganda outlet) like Sputnik news.

It's true that the NH90 is one of the biggest problem children of the Bundeswehr. Most of its troubles result from the fact that, years ago, the first machines had lots of teething issues, but were still accepted in varying states of completeness, which created a maintenance nightmare. Add to this internal reorganisations of the Bundeswehr (like the army taking over the helicopters from the airforce), Airbus being more interested in their civilian business than their military maintenance tasks, limited stocks of spare parts, retrofit measures for older aircraft, and you get the current mess.

However, all of this says little about the quality of those new NH90s that are currently coming off the factory line, with all the experience that has been gained 15-20 years later.

BTW, according to Bild/The Drive, 12 of 99 NH90s were "ready-to-use" on Jan. 1, 2020. But the Bundeswehr had only received 77 NH90s by April 2020, according to their latest armament report.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10180
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:29 am

Mostly it is the cheap maintenance contract Germany signed.
 
GDB
Posts: 14115
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:04 am

Whatever the issues, be it budgetary, lack of proper prep for service - often liked to the former, the fact is the type has had multiple operational deployments, including combat missions, to some challenging (for any helicopter) environments.

https://www.blogbeforeflight.net/2020/0 ... istan.html

https://verticalmag.com/features/rising ... n-germany/

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... ssion.html

Mali in particular has seen deployments of Italian and French NH-90's, as well as Afghanistan, the former being described by the French ground forces there as 'Planet Mars'.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:34 pm

Deployments or not, they’ve also had customers just give up. LOL @ the German rationales and defensiveness here...

It’s still mired around 50% in France;

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -improving

The Belgians are scaling back due to...you guessed it, maintenance and costs;

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... g-problems

The ‘rusty helicopter’ per the Germans;

https://www.dw.com/en/german-army-shows ... a-45149339

Norwegian issues (giving up on original mission):

https://www.flightglobal.com/norway-run ... 31.article

I’m not aware of any sources/claims showing anything above roughly 50% mission capable rates for the NH-90, and it’s not a new design. Maybe I could be enlightened if all of my sources are wrong, but it essentially embodies the phrase “hangar queen” for it’s users, despite having some great specs on paper. The thing is there are great Euro options too, such as the -101, so I just don’t get why the Germans would go further down this road. But hey, it’s their money, and I have no problem with it being spent as such!
 
GDB
Posts: 14115
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:04 pm

Surely successful deployments are the real test?
Which may well impact availability across the rest of the fleet, more so when you have a new, high tech chopper - compared to what it replaced?
Not just aviation either, in 1990/91 to send an armoured Brigade, then enhanced to a full Division, the British Army Of the Rhine as it was then, essentially had to strip bare the remaining two Divisions and a lot of UK based units too. This is what happens when an unexpected deployment, in a then unfamiliar environment occurs.

What has this to do with the NH-90? Post Cold War it was procured in smaller numbers, under much tighter budgets, including to nations with little experience in 'out of area' deployments until the early years of this century.

The problems of NH-90 availability are in part due to these factors, nonetheless they have been deployed, successfully by all accounts, by several users, if they had not been deemed fit to be, or had to be withdrawn, that would be much more damning about the aircraft and the services operating it.

I note that Norway has ordered 12 EH-101's in the SAR role, looking at that link they seemed to have ordered too few NH-90's for too many missions. Given the very hostile nature of the Norwegian SAR role, (or as one North Sea Oil rig worker called it, 'outer space, with bad weather'), the Merlin always made more sense for them.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:22 pm

The old axiom is "you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want." It's an ageless truth, that no military commander has just inherited a relatively perfect force, properly equipped at the advent of a substantial foreign war (well, maybe Alexander the great, but that's perhaps a bit off topic). That's how deployments work today too. No deployment has ever been deemed "failed, because equipment didn't work right." That's not the way either the brass or press works in any western country. Lot's of countries (including, yes, the US) strip non-deployed units (and depots) of men and materiel to support deployed ones.

Again, I've seen no claims of any military user of mission capable rates over 50% for the NH-90.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3684
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:28 pm

There's also the tendency to concentrate resources to support units that are deployed, to ensure a high mission readiness rate for the deployed units, while stripping units at home of their resources to compensate. As such, looking at the deployed mission rate can be misleading as at times, a high mission readiness rate for deployed units is because they been given additional resources at a higher priority above and beyond the normal levels.
 
User avatar
Slug71
Posts: 1507
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:08 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:45 am

IADFCO wrote:
Please please please -- can you please keep Trump out of this? On this side of the pond the elections are barely over (or not, according to some) and we come from months and months of yelling and screaming.

How about discussing the technical merits of the decision? I tend to follow the helicopter part of the ecosystem reasonably closely but I don't know much about the NH-90. Can anybody comment on how it's behaving in the field? Is it easy to maintain? Good performance?


Seconded.

Congress has FAR FAR FAR more to do with ANY and ALL legislation including foreign sales. Please stop throwing the President's name around like he is king. NOTHING gets through CONGRESS without their approval.

Anyhoo, the NH90 definitely seems to be maturing finally. Other than the Dutch crash, there really hasn't been much bad press about it in a while.
 
Noray
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:15 am

texl1649 wrote:
Deployments or not, they’ve also had customers just give up. LOL @ the German rationales and defensiveness here...

It’s still mired around 50% in France;

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -improving

The Belgians are scaling back due to...you guessed it, maintenance and costs;

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... g-problems

The ‘rusty helicopter’ per the Germans;

https://www.dw.com/en/german-army-shows ... a-45149339

Norwegian issues (giving up on original mission):

https://www.flightglobal.com/norway-run ... 31.article

I’m not aware of any sources/claims showing anything above roughly 50% mission capable rates for the NH-90, and it’s not a new design. Maybe I could be enlightened if all of my sources are wrong, but it essentially embodies the phrase “hangar queen” for it’s users, despite having some great specs on paper. The thing is there are great Euro options too, such as the -101, so I just don’t get why the Germans would go further down this road. But hey, it’s their money, and I have no problem with it being spent as such!

While you continue your habitual indiscriminate anti European bashing (which is getting slightly tedious, tbh), your links actually confirm my previous post. A few quotes:
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -improving

“That problem comes from the fact that Caïmans were delivered to us in a variety of standards, Step A, Step B, and FRC [full radar configuration], that all need to be updated to MR1 [maintenance release 1].”

Two of the aircraft have already been updated to MR1 standard, Rear Adm Goutay noted, which features “very stable” mission system software and has proven to be more reliable than previous configurations.

The Belgians too have trouble with early variants, and they're still supporting the NH90 in the maritime role.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... g-problems

limited operational output due to the lack of industrial support (which is likely to decline in the coming years), due to very costly but necessary upgrades, and due to staff shortages. [The MoD] makes the choice to focus on the NFH version, which in its maritime role must expand the effectiveness of the frigates and at the same time ensure the search and rescue mission,” the ministry said.

This thread is not about the history and early variants of the NH90. In the context of new acquisitions your bashing is simply off topic.

Slug71 wrote:
Anyhoo, the NH90 definitely seems to be maturing finally. Other than the Dutch crash, there really hasn't been much bad press about it in a while.

Ah, there's still some wisdom left in this forum.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9986
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:41 am

Noshow wrote:
I don't care if you like Trump or not but he influenced recent developments whether you like it or not.


chicken or egg?
Murphy is an optimist
 
Noshow
Posts: 2206
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:06 am

The point is Germany ordered Sea Lions but no US midsize helicopters while those are urgently needed. Why not think about it?
 
texl1649
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:05 pm

Noray wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
Deployments or not, they’ve also had customers just give up. LOL @ the German rationales and defensiveness here...

It’s still mired around 50% in France;

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -improving

The Belgians are scaling back due to...you guessed it, maintenance and costs;

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... g-problems

The ‘rusty helicopter’ per the Germans;

https://www.dw.com/en/german-army-shows ... a-45149339

Norwegian issues (giving up on original mission):

https://www.flightglobal.com/norway-run ... 31.article

I’m not aware of any sources/claims showing anything above roughly 50% mission capable rates for the NH-90, and it’s not a new design. Maybe I could be enlightened if all of my sources are wrong, but it essentially embodies the phrase “hangar queen” for it’s users, despite having some great specs on paper. The thing is there are great Euro options too, such as the -101, so I just don’t get why the Germans would go further down this road. But hey, it’s their money, and I have no problem with it being spent as such!

While you continue your habitual indiscriminate anti European bashing (which is getting slightly tedious, tbh), your links actually confirm my previous post. A few quotes:
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -improving

“That problem comes from the fact that Caïmans were delivered to us in a variety of standards, Step A, Step B, and FRC [full radar configuration], that all need to be updated to MR1 [maintenance release 1].”

Two of the aircraft have already been updated to MR1 standard, Rear Adm Goutay noted, which features “very stable” mission system software and has proven to be more reliable than previous configurations.

The Belgians too have trouble with early variants, and they're still supporting the NH90 in the maritime role.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... g-problems

limited operational output due to the lack of industrial support (which is likely to decline in the coming years), due to very costly but necessary upgrades, and due to staff shortages. [The MoD] makes the choice to focus on the NFH version, which in its maritime role must expand the effectiveness of the frigates and at the same time ensure the search and rescue mission,” the ministry said.

This thread is not about the history and early variants of the NH90. In the context of new acquisitions your bashing is simply off topic.

Slug71 wrote:
Anyhoo, the NH90 definitely seems to be maturing finally. Other than the Dutch crash, there really hasn't been much bad press about it in a while.

Ah, there's still some wisdom left in this forum.


The NH-90 flew in 1995. To say it is now finally maturing, after each operator has to use it for decades and invest at least hundreds of millions in upgrades/updates, well ok. It proves my point; it's a hangar queen. You've tediously tried to excerpt my links, which is great, but operators use it because they are so invested in it, not because it's a great aircraft. Not many countries scrap an expensive to maintain fleet to buy a replacement one (ahem, Eurofighter, cough cough). No one driving a new 5 series BMW complains about it for 5 years.

Again, it's not pointing fingers at a whole continent for goodness sakes, it's a discussion about a problematic specific helicopter. Just as we shouldn't look to Boeing press releases for the most accurate analyses of the Max, a depth of sources/information is best on a military type. Here's another (European!) story;

https://romeosquared.eu/2018/02/19/heli ... he-rescue/

They delivered an extra one for 'free' to Australia but apparently...they still want out.

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2020/10/0 ... licopters/

Once again, I've seen no claim, anywhere, including from you, that the NH-90 is over 50% mission capable for any of its users. The nearest approximation I can positively fix on cost per flight hour is the 2018 Finnish one; about 10K Euros/hr. This is still over 220% the cost of a Blackhawk. But again, the Finnish folks almost never utter a negative word about their equipment; context matters of the below excerpt.

https://corporalfrisk.com/2018/03/03/of ... igh-costs/

This is in stark contrast to the Finnish numbers, where the flight hour cost is on a steady downwards trajectory. For 2017 the budgeted flight hour cost was 15,900 EUR, while for 2018 it is down in the neighborhood of around 10,000 EUR. This was confirmed by colonel Jaro Kesänen, Commanding Officer of Utti Jaeger Regiment which is home to the Helicopter Battalion. Speaking as a private citizen, Kesänen noted in a non-formal Twitter exchange that the NH90 is an appreciated asset in the Finnish Defence Forces and that the flight hour cost is within the range envisioned when the helicopters were acquired. Notable is that in the case of Finland the NH90 is the sole transport helicopter available to the Defence Forces (though a limited number of Border Guard helicopters can also be called upon by the authorities), and the caveat should be made that rarely does the Finnish Defence Forces openly voice negative opinions about their own systems.
 
GDB
Posts: 14115
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:47 pm

France to convert final 10 TTH machines to SF support, with upgrades;
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... perations/

For a useless hangar queen, the type has amassed a fair number of exports, outside of the partner nations.
No one should deny it was, at first, a clumsily managed program, first prototype flew in December 1995, first deliveries were in 2007, not Cold War length times between first flight and service entry, which is kind of my point.
(Of course there is one tried and tested way of suddenly improving mission availability rates, unfortunately that usually means the nation concerned finds itself in a major war).

Then there is the issue of putting a sophisticated machine, (which the NH-90 certainly is), into the field too soon, witness the first deployment of F-111's to Vietnam. A disaster.
But who would now claim that this type did not go on to become a very formidable combat aircraft?

How do you measure success or failure in these projects?
I could think of one that a lot of money and time was sunk into that was also a helicopter, for nothing, (RAH-66), which wasn't a complex arrangement of nations and companies.
If we are talking about a dysfunctional procurement, with helicopters, what kept that thing going for so long? I suspect lobbying in Washington.
Those who live in glass houses.......

Meanwhile, this clumsily managed NH-90 is still playing catch up, it is however doing so while being deployed, operationally in harsh environments, where there is an enemy who shoots back.
Cannot be that delicate.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:00 pm

See, this is how it becomes a “US vs. Europe” debate. I freely admit, happily, the RAH-66 should have been cancelled earlier. Billions could have been saved and invested in at least making the Kiowa Warrior’s capable for another decade.

The NH-90 is not technically unsound, but I also wouldn’t claim it was a wild success. 400 or so built, and of the 3 export customers, really only Oman and New Zealand remain. Australia sure wasn’t thrilled, as per above. 25 years down the road for a utility chopper, no reason to compare it to a cancelled stealth program from the 90’s (involving a complex industrial team and with a poor/immature powerplant design/concept, not to mention software rivaling in leap forward goals the F-35).
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 4091
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:15 am

texl1649 wrote:
See, this is how it becomes a “US vs. Europe” debate. I freely admit, happily, the RAH-66 should have been cancelled earlier. Billions could have been saved and invested in at least making the Kiowa Warrior’s capable for another decade.

The NH-90 is not technically unsound, but I also wouldn’t claim it was a wild success. 400 or so built, and of the 3 export customers, really only Oman and New Zealand remain. Australia sure wasn’t thrilled, as per above. 25 years down the road for a utility chopper, no reason to compare it to a cancelled stealth program from the 90’s (involving a complex industrial team and with a poor/immature powerplant design/concept, not to mention software rivaling in leap forward goals the F-35).


Not sure how you arrive at three export customers. The original clients were France, Italy, Germany, The Netherlands, Portugal and Belgium. Portugal dropped out due to monetary issues, and since start of the programm Australia, Finland, Greece, Qatar, New Zealand, Norway, Oman, Sweden and Spain have been added to the customer list. Which makes it 13 current users (Qatar yet to received AFAIK) with a bit over 400 units operational and about 600 ordered in total. Certainly not the level of success a Black Hawk had, but that was never in reach anyway.

One of the major lessons learned from this program was: two or three countries agree on the specs. That´s the baseline and that´s it. Take it or leave it. Very much the approach now seen with the FCAS.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:17 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
texl1649 wrote:


Not sure how you arrive at three export customers. The original clients were France, Italy, Germany, The Netherlands, Portugal and Belgium. Portugal dropped out due to monetary issues, and since start of the programm Australia, Finland, Greece, Qatar, New Zealand, Norway, Oman, Sweden and Spain have been added to the customer list. Which makes it 13 current users (Qatar yet to received AFAIK).


Well, ok. If you exclude Europe/EU users...it's Oman, NZ and Australia. So, two remaining, one pending. Qatar deliveries are slated to start in mid 2022 I think, though training has started.

Not fair to compare/involve FCAS/Blackhawk as some sort of relevant standard, I would agree.
 
CRJockey
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:19 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Flying-Tiger wrote:
texl1649 wrote:


Not sure how you arrive at three export customers. The original clients were France, Italy, Germany, The Netherlands, Portugal and Belgium. Portugal dropped out due to monetary issues, and since start of the programm Australia, Finland, Greece, Qatar, New Zealand, Norway, Oman, Sweden and Spain have been added to the customer list. Which makes it 13 current users (Qatar yet to received AFAIK).


Well, ok. If you exclude Europe/EU users...it's Oman, NZ and Australia. So, two remaining, one pending. Qatar deliveries are slated to start in mid 2022 I think, though training has started.

Not fair to compare/involve FCAS/Blackhawk as some sort of relevant standard, I would agree.


I really have no large interest in the matter, just reading as a by-passer. But isn’t it quite arbitrary to exclude nations as export customer if they are, well, export customers?
 
texl1649
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:58 pm

CRJockey wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
Flying-Tiger wrote:

Not sure how you arrive at three export customers. The original clients were France, Italy, Germany, The Netherlands, Portugal and Belgium. Portugal dropped out due to monetary issues, and since start of the programm Australia, Finland, Greece, Qatar, New Zealand, Norway, Oman, Sweden and Spain have been added to the customer list. Which makes it 13 current users (Qatar yet to received AFAIK).


Well, ok. If you exclude Europe/EU users...it's Oman, NZ and Australia. So, two remaining, one pending. Qatar deliveries are slated to start in mid 2022 I think, though training has started.

Not fair to compare/involve FCAS/Blackhawk as some sort of relevant standard, I would agree.


I really have no large interest in the matter, just reading as a by-passer. But isn’t it quite arbitrary to exclude nations as export customer if they are, well, export customers?


Not really. The EU block tends to purchase similar equipment (or even operate joint squadrons). It's sort of similar, to how the warsaw pact also operated largely the same gear/types at this point in history (not similar politically but from an interoperability perspective). Much of the equipment/components are made in various countries, not just Italy/the original 5 who signed onto the program. They often access the same NATO requirements, train jointly (locally), seek EU equipment first, and then even have a common banking/financing system to resource/fund programs. Only rarely are outside types acquired in real isolation (such as Germany with the CH-53G, or F-18 users etc).

Not complaining about any of that (again, it's their monies, and the same could be said for the US), it's just a simple set of facts, imho.
 
CRJockey
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:15 pm

texl1649 wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
texl1649 wrote:

Well, ok. If you exclude Europe/EU users...it's Oman, NZ and Australia. So, two remaining, one pending. Qatar deliveries are slated to start in mid 2022 I think, though training has started.

Not fair to compare/involve FCAS/Blackhawk as some sort of relevant standard, I would agree.


I really have no large interest in the matter, just reading as a by-passer. But isn’t it quite arbitrary to exclude nations as export customer if they are, well, export customers?


Not really. The EU block tends to purchase similar equipment (or even operate joint squadrons). It's sort of similar, to how the warsaw pact also operated largely the same gear/types at this point in history (not similar politically but from an interoperability perspective). Much of the equipment/components are made in various countries, not just Italy/the original 5 who signed onto the program. They often access the same NATO requirements, train jointly (locally), seek EU equipment first, and then even have a common banking/financing system to resource/fund programs. Only rarely are outside types acquired in real isolation (such as Germany with the CH-53G, or F-18 users etc).

Not complaining about any of that (again, it's their monies, and the same could be said for the US), it's just a simple set of facts, imho.


Does not sound convincing to me at all. In an instant I could name so many European and/or EU countries with non-European major equipment in all branches of military, that I am not sure your argument really holds water.

But yeah, some have in some instances chosen to go down the European cooperations path at the same time some have chosen that NATO interoperability is quite enough, regardless of equipment origin.
A comparison to soviet bloc purchasing seems wild in my book.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:21 pm

CRJockey 34, no issue with your book, but I don’t think you’ve been following much said about Brexit, or press in Germany, France or Brussels the past few years (decade plus) if you don’t see the similarities.

They’re willing/ready/determined to spend money locally when possible to avoid, for instance, American equipment. It’s not simply about the last 4 years of politics, but the EU posters (including above on this thread) are quite adamant the local tech/know how is quite significant and over riding to their interests vs. best price. This wasn’t always the case of course anywhere near as monolithically as today (look back to the F-16, F-4 etc), but it certainly is getting there now.

Billions were spent for the NH-90 (and A400M, Eurofighter etc.) and will further be moving forward to promote domestic industries (a la “C-130 replacement” etc.) They produce technically sound, wonderful aircraft, and competition is a good thing. (Maintenance costs seem to be a common problem though). When the Texas Air National Guard operates the same equipment as the California one, we don’t think much anything of it, nor should we. The same should be considered of intra-EU “export” sales of major systems moving forward, particularly any in the 21st century. Some exceptions of course, like Poland, Switzerland, etc.

Meanwhile, there are 14 (ancient) SH-60 customers outside of the US, and it’s operating costs being less than a third of the NH-90 maritime variant haven’t been questioned in this thread.
 
CRJockey
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:49 pm

Thanks for being issue-free with my book. I like it (the book!) quite a bit.

As so often on this board, you seem to be interpreting disagreement as something that must have it's roots only in the fact, "the other" would be uninformed or otherwise impaired at coherently analysing the situation.
So, without going in to the quite uninteresting detail of my personal European press following, my interpretation of the situation is simply different. As a matter of fact, the various US States National Guards operating the same equipment is in every sense conceivable different to intra-EU buying of equipment. If you believe it is the same or should be, apparently we have very different understanding of European culture, politics and industry policy.

What I agree with wholeheartedly is, that some European nations subliminally neglect their equipment to a point where mission readiness leaves a lot to be desired. Not that it matters much; no realistically conceivable threat/adversary on the horizon with a better state of affairs within their forces. But it is inefficient use of capital and hardly the quality of work I'd like to see within a (semi...) professional organization. But well, nothing in me convices myself that chosing (just as an example) a Sikorsky chopper instead of NH90 would be any better of when it comes to readiness.

C ya.
 
sekant
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 10:07 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:06 pm

texl1649 wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
texl1649 wrote:

Well, ok. If you exclude Europe/EU users...it's Oman, NZ and Australia. So, two remaining, one pending. Qatar deliveries are slated to start in mid 2022 I think, though training has started.

Not fair to compare/involve FCAS/Blackhawk as some sort of relevant standard, I would agree.


I really have no large interest in the matter, just reading as a by-passer. But isn’t it quite arbitrary to exclude nations as export customer if they are, well, export customers?


Not really. The EU block tends to purchase similar equipment (or even operate joint squadrons). It's sort of similar, to how the warsaw pact also operated largely the same gear/types at this point in history (not similar politically but from an interoperability perspective). Much of the equipment/components are made in various countries, not just Italy/the original 5 who signed onto the program. They often access the same NATO requirements, train jointly (locally), seek EU equipment first, and then even have a common banking/financing system to resource/fund programs. Only rarely are outside types acquired in real isolation (such as Germany with the CH-53G, or F-18 users etc).

Not complaining about any of that (again, it's their monies, and the same could be said for the US), it's just a simple set of facts, imho.


Interesting, you may want to then explain the following export pattern:

- F16: Beligum, Denmark, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania,
- F35: Belgium, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, UK
- EF: Austria
- Rafale: Greece
 
CRJockey
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:44 pm

sekant wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
CRJockey wrote:

I really have no large interest in the matter, just reading as a by-passer. But isn’t it quite arbitrary to exclude nations as export customer if they are, well, export customers?


Not really. The EU block tends to purchase similar equipment (or even operate joint squadrons). It's sort of similar, to how the warsaw pact also operated largely the same gear/types at this point in history (not similar politically but from an interoperability perspective). Much of the equipment/components are made in various countries, not just Italy/the original 5 who signed onto the program. They often access the same NATO requirements, train jointly (locally), seek EU equipment first, and then even have a common banking/financing system to resource/fund programs. Only rarely are outside types acquired in real isolation (such as Germany with the CH-53G, or F-18 users etc).

Not complaining about any of that (again, it's their monies, and the same could be said for the US), it's just a simple set of facts, imho.


Interesting, you may want to then explain the following export pattern:

- F16: Beligum, Denmark, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania,
- F35: Belgium, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, UK
- EF: Austria
- Rafale: Greece


...and thats fixed wing fast jet equipment only. :-)
 
GDB
Posts: 14115
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:03 pm

At least the mass purchase of F-16's the the late 70's was about the game changing nature of that design, the other alternatives did not match up in 1975;
Mirage F1E - Good solid design, better engine than the F1C, likely improved avionics but still fundamentally previous generation.
Mirage 2000 - Had not flown in 1975.
SAAB JA series, issues around a big buy from a Western but non NATO nation, having two separate attack and later, AD versions too.
YF-17 - If it wasn't good enough for the USAF......(plus USAF F-16's would of course deploy to Europe in time).

What a contrast to the bribery soaked 'Deal' for F-104's 15 years prior.

Others had differing requirements, three NATO AF's wanted a modern strike aircraft, they developed and built the Tornado.

Back to the NH-90, I note the RAN have had issues with deploying their TTH versions at sea, really for that role they would have been better off with the MH-60S to supplement their Romeo versions.
How they managed not to properly modify a largely composite aircraft for things like corrosion, itself designed from the start for Naval versions, seems to me to be a case of the customer screwing up.
The MH-60S is now out of production, making switching back to that expensive, presumably the RAN just took some of the RAAF's order for utility TTH versions without modification?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14435
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:48 pm

sekant wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
CRJockey wrote:

I really have no large interest in the matter, just reading as a by-passer. But isn’t it quite arbitrary to exclude nations as export customer if they are, well, export customers?


Not really. The EU block tends to purchase similar equipment (or even operate joint squadrons). It's sort of similar, to how the warsaw pact also operated largely the same gear/types at this point in history (not similar politically but from an interoperability perspective). Much of the equipment/components are made in various countries, not just Italy/the original 5 who signed onto the program. They often access the same NATO requirements, train jointly (locally), seek EU equipment first, and then even have a common banking/financing system to resource/fund programs. Only rarely are outside types acquired in real isolation (such as Germany with the CH-53G, or F-18 users etc).

Not complaining about any of that (again, it's their monies, and the same could be said for the US), it's just a simple set of facts, imho.


Interesting, you may want to then explain the following export pattern:

- F16: Beligum, Denmark, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania,
- F35: Belgium, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, UK


US suppliers lost 22% of their customer over a generation change?

It is essentially simple: Those nations that have a work share in a military program get essentially an instand 50% refund via their taxation streams, countries that don´t participate don´t.

So if a US system is 100 million and an EU sources system where you have a work-share equivalent to your qty is 180 million, the EU system is still quite a bit cheaper. If not, the scale advantage volume production offers outweighs that easily.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
texl1649
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:41 pm

The F-16 decisions go back at least 35 years now, and are cold-war era decisions. I again don't see the relevance of the comparison; heck, it was even built in Europe. F-104? I mean, if we really want to we could go back to WW2 armor I suppose too.

On the F-35, it's a non-analog anyway as there is no European competitor to the F-35 to date. Whether it be the Tempest or FCAS etc. it is at least 15 years from EIS and will be, yes, more than 50% more expensive for the first 15 years at least vs. F-35's. The F-35 program obviously also offered workshare guarantees/incentives as well.

In some ways, the C-130J purchase by France is the same thing. There just isn't a 'domestic' competitor.

It's just a generalization of the current/real situation, of my own. People are free to disagree.
 
sekant
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 10:07 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:05 pm

texl1649 wrote:
The F-16 decisions go back at least 35 years now, and are cold-war era decisions. I again don't see the relevance of the comparison; heck, it was even built in Europe. F-104? I mean, if we really want to we could go back to WW2 armor I suppose too.

On the F-35, it's a non-analog anyway as there is no European competitor to the F-35 to date. Whether it be the Tempest or FCAS etc. it is at least 15 years from EIS and will be, yes, more than 50% more expensive for the first 15 years at least vs. F-35's. The F-35 program obviously also offered workshare guarantees/incentives as well.

In some ways, the C-130J purchase by France is the same thing. There just isn't a 'domestic' competitor.

It's just a generalization of the current/real situation, of my own. People are free to disagree.


Maybe badly expressed from my part then. My point is that your affirmation that "The EU block tends to purchase similar equipment" is a vast overstatement. On big ticket items, quite the contrary, many EU countries will favour US products first and foremost for political reasons as the US is seen as underwriting their security. And this is particularly true of the "newer" NATO countries, so far I know their purchase of F-16s does not go back 35 years. And let me clarify, I am not pointing fingers or complaining, just highlighting a fact.

Not really convinced either of the argument that EU countries purchase similar equipments as they often access the same NATO requirements, when the US has the greatest say in this area. Same for F35 and no European equivalent, the purchase is also largely motivated by political reasons.

I would in fact turn your argument around. Facts tend to show that intra-European solidarity in terms of equipment purchase is very low, and US products will be favoured to the detriment of the European option .
 
texl1649
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:28 pm

It is true for the Eastern Euro. Nations, you are probably right. They’re also more budget constrained, and prone to looking to used equipment too (such as F-16’s).

The shift is quite real over the past 25 years in the main of Europe though (central/west). I frankly see it as a good thing, to build/equip/provide for their own defense. US abilities to influence NATO requirements are lower than they were, also. It will continue to drop, I expect. The Europeans do pretty well in some ways with the US defense market (namely in firearms, sometimes in others such as T-45/Harrier historically), but the real flip side is that the US is absolutely averse to major Euro systems, with precious few exceptions and has been for many years. Some of that is cost, some is security, and much is just cultural, imho.

I felt the KC-45 was easily worth the price difference for the capability but it was...vociferously opposed, for a 21st century comparison. I think Airbus still has the (much) better software/hardware for a tanker, and in private at a bar I bet most USAF folks who know would agree.

It is what it is on both sides. Oh well, I’m just one old voter.
 
GDB
Posts: 14115
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:08 pm

texl1649 wrote:
The F-16 decisions go back at least 35 years now, and are cold-war era decisions. I again don't see the relevance of the comparison; heck, it was even built in Europe. F-104? I mean, if we really want to we could go back to WW2 armor I suppose too.

On the F-35, it's a non-analog anyway as there is no European competitor to the F-35 to date. Whether it be the Tempest or FCAS etc. it is at least 15 years from EIS and will be, yes, more than 50% more expensive for the first 15 years at least vs. F-35's. The F-35 program obviously also offered workshare guarantees/incentives as well.

In some ways, the C-130J purchase by France is the same thing. There just isn't a 'domestic' competitor.

It's just a generalization of the current/real situation, of my own. People are free to disagree.


The Cold War was (just) on still when NH-90 began, though it's end a couple of years later would have seriously slowed it's development, along with other projects, (Typhoon included, not that is was called that back then).
The F-35, in UK and Italian service at least, are tip of the spear weapons, for the UK and to a lesser extent Italy, also use it as a way to modernize their Naval Aviation, for both AF's however it is not the main combat aircraft, though Italy will likely replace it's remaining Tornados with F-35A's, Tempest is, eventually, to replace Typhoon in both cases.

Why do these? Or the Franco/German effort?
For the same reason the US has DARPA and all manner of other research bodies, which industry has massively benefited from.

NH-90 seems to have a customer base way beyond the industrial partners, no reason it won't attract more, for all the delays, overcomplexities, more customers and more deployments doing what it was built to do, will only enhance the sales prospects.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 1787
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:15 am

texl1649 wrote:
CRJockey 34, no issue with your book, but I don’t think you’ve been following much said about Brexit, or press in Germany, France or Brussels the past few years (decade plus) if you don’t see the similarities.

They’re willing/ready/determined to spend money locally when possible to avoid, for instance, American equipment. It’s not simply about the last 4 years of politics, but the EU posters (including above on this thread) are quite adamant the local tech/know how is quite significant and over riding to their interests vs. best price. This wasn’t always the case of course anywhere near as monolithically as today (look back to the F-16, F-4 etc), but it certainly is getting there now.

Billions were spent for the NH-90 (and A400M, Eurofighter etc.) and will further be moving forward to promote domestic industries (a la “C-130 replacement” etc.) They produce technically sound, wonderful aircraft, and competition is a good thing. (Maintenance costs seem to be a common problem though). When the Texas Air National Guard operates the same equipment as the California one, we don’t think much anything of it, nor should we. The same should be considered of intra-EU “export” sales of major systems moving forward, particularly any in the 21st century. Some exceptions of course, like Poland, Switzerland, etc.

Meanwhile, there are 14 (ancient) SH-60 customers outside of the US, and it’s operating costs being less than a third of the NH-90 maritime variant haven’t been questioned in this thread.


Wow!

That's a LOT of Euros for a helicopter. The ASW-variant MH-60R goes for about $50M, and this is about $110M.
If Germany wanted to buy the MH-60R, they would have an extra $1.5B to spend on something else. Or they could have bought twice as many helicopters.

I don't understand how paying double can be a good deal.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3684
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:17 am

kitplane01 wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
CRJockey 34, no issue with your book, but I don’t think you’ve been following much said about Brexit, or press in Germany, France or Brussels the past few years (decade plus) if you don’t see the similarities.

They’re willing/ready/determined to spend money locally when possible to avoid, for instance, American equipment. It’s not simply about the last 4 years of politics, but the EU posters (including above on this thread) are quite adamant the local tech/know how is quite significant and over riding to their interests vs. best price. This wasn’t always the case of course anywhere near as monolithically as today (look back to the F-16, F-4 etc), but it certainly is getting there now.

Billions were spent for the NH-90 (and A400M, Eurofighter etc.) and will further be moving forward to promote domestic industries (a la “C-130 replacement” etc.) They produce technically sound, wonderful aircraft, and competition is a good thing. (Maintenance costs seem to be a common problem though). When the Texas Air National Guard operates the same equipment as the California one, we don’t think much anything of it, nor should we. The same should be considered of intra-EU “export” sales of major systems moving forward, particularly any in the 21st century. Some exceptions of course, like Poland, Switzerland, etc.

Meanwhile, there are 14 (ancient) SH-60 customers outside of the US, and it’s operating costs being less than a third of the NH-90 maritime variant haven’t been questioned in this thread.


Wow!

That's a LOT of Euros for a helicopter. The ASW-variant MH-60R goes for about $50M, and this is about $110M.
If Germany wanted to buy the MH-60R, they would have an extra $1.5B to spend on something else. Or they could have bought twice as many helicopters.

I don't understand how paying double can be a good deal.


Couple of things to quibble about:

1. There is a substantial capabilities difference between the NH90 and the MH-60R; the NH90 is a bigger helicopter that has more capability than a MH-60R. Higher capability usually results in a higher price to begin with.

2. I suspect there is a support contract involved as well; depending on how long the support contract is for, and the exact details, it can substantially inflate the program cost of a purchase.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 1787
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:05 am

ThePointblank wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
CRJockey 34, no issue with your book, but I don’t think you’ve been following much said about Brexit, or press in Germany, France or Brussels the past few years (decade plus) if you don’t see the similarities.

They’re willing/ready/determined to spend money locally when possible to avoid, for instance, American equipment. It’s not simply about the last 4 years of politics, but the EU posters (including above on this thread) are quite adamant the local tech/know how is quite significant and over riding to their interests vs. best price. This wasn’t always the case of course anywhere near as monolithically as today (look back to the F-16, F-4 etc), but it certainly is getting there now.

Billions were spent for the NH-90 (and A400M, Eurofighter etc.) and will further be moving forward to promote domestic industries (a la “C-130 replacement” etc.) They produce technically sound, wonderful aircraft, and competition is a good thing. (Maintenance costs seem to be a common problem though). When the Texas Air National Guard operates the same equipment as the California one, we don’t think much anything of it, nor should we. The same should be considered of intra-EU “export” sales of major systems moving forward, particularly any in the 21st century. Some exceptions of course, like Poland, Switzerland, etc.

Meanwhile, there are 14 (ancient) SH-60 customers outside of the US, and it’s operating costs being less than a third of the NH-90 maritime variant haven’t been questioned in this thread.


Wow!

That's a LOT of Euros for a helicopter. The ASW-variant MH-60R goes for about $50M, and this is about $110M.
If Germany wanted to buy the MH-60R, they would have an extra $1.5B to spend on something else. Or they could have bought twice as many helicopters.

I don't understand how paying double can be a good deal.


Couple of things to quibble about:

1. There is a substantial capabilities difference between the NH90 and the MH-60R; the NH90 is a bigger helicopter that has more capability than a MH-60R. Higher capability usually results in a higher price to begin with.

2. I suspect there is a support contract involved as well; depending on how long the support contract is for, and the exact details, it can substantially inflate the program cost of a purchase.


I'm sure there is *some* support, but to justify this price it would have to be a heck of a support contract. I checked the top nine articles on this from Google, and none mention any. If the support contract part was worth over a billion or was 50% of the total value, you'd think they might mention it. Do you have any evidence for the existence of a very significant support contract? I'm not arguing .. I'm actually curious.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3684
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:16 am

kitplane01 wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

Wow!

That's a LOT of Euros for a helicopter. The ASW-variant MH-60R goes for about $50M, and this is about $110M.
If Germany wanted to buy the MH-60R, they would have an extra $1.5B to spend on something else. Or they could have bought twice as many helicopters.

I don't understand how paying double can be a good deal.


Couple of things to quibble about:

1. There is a substantial capabilities difference between the NH90 and the MH-60R; the NH90 is a bigger helicopter that has more capability than a MH-60R. Higher capability usually results in a higher price to begin with.

2. I suspect there is a support contract involved as well; depending on how long the support contract is for, and the exact details, it can substantially inflate the program cost of a purchase.


I'm sure there is *some* support, but to justify this price it would have to be a heck of a support contract. I checked the top nine articles on this from Google, and none mention any. If the support contract part was worth over a billion or was 50% of the total value, you'd think they might mention it. Do you have any evidence for the existence of a very significant support contract? I'm not arguing .. I'm actually curious.

Vertical Magazine indicates that there is a support and training package within the contract per the press release:

https://verticalmag.com/press-releases/ ... licopters/
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14435
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:17 am

kitplane01 wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

Wow!

That's a LOT of Euros for a helicopter. The ASW-variant MH-60R goes for about $50M, and this is about $110M.
If Germany wanted to buy the MH-60R, they would have an extra $1.5B to spend on something else. Or they could have bought twice as many helicopters.

I don't understand how paying double can be a good deal.


Couple of things to quibble about:

1. There is a substantial capabilities difference between the NH90 and the MH-60R; the NH90 is a bigger helicopter that has more capability than a MH-60R. Higher capability usually results in a higher price to begin with.

2. I suspect there is a support contract involved as well; depending on how long the support contract is for, and the exact details, it can substantially inflate the program cost of a purchase.


I'm sure there is *some* support, but to justify this price it would have to be a heck of a support contract. I checked the top nine articles on this from Google, and none mention any. If the support contract part was worth over a billion or was 50% of the total value, you'd think they might mention it. Do you have any evidence for the existence of a very significant support contract? I'm not arguing .. I'm actually curious.


not just will support packages be hard to compare, but also keep in mind that those prices in German military procurement include 19% VAT, so its 92 Million to beginn with. Given its made here ~45% of that will ultimately end back up with the tax man, reducing that to an effective 51 million actually dished out by the tax payer vs. an import. Outside of a booming economy its also set off by reduced social security spending, reducing the bill even further. Add to that macro economic effects of having the know how. Domestic military programs are not just pride, they are quickly more cost effective, despite the headline price tag.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4134
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Germany Navy NH90 order approved

Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:40 am

kitplane01 wrote:
I don't understand how paying double can be a good deal.

For governments, it can be a good deal.

Something to consider when the government buys domestic, the sales tax on whatever they buy goes back to the government. The people building the thing pay income tax, which goes to the government. In addition to these direct taxes, the workers are subject to countless indirect taxes such as VAT, petrol tax etc. Lastly, it keeps people working, meaning fewer unemployment benefits. All these taxes add up.

If the government buys something from abroad, they won’t have that effect. That is, if course, assuming there is no offset requirement in the contract.
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
Get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back!
Lord Flashheart, 1989

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos