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BawliBooch
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:00 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Regarding the nuclear subs that operate out of Faslane...

Could Scotland hand the nukes over to England - in exchange for a loosely enforced promise not to get invaded?


When i last checked, the SNP was pretty ideologically opposed to nuclear weapons and wanted all of them out. The question therefore is where will UK park their nukes if Scotland secedes.

To answer the orig question, i see an independent Scotland as a full EU member with all the mutual security guarantees in place. And there are other important priorities for a new nation.

So for the next 15 year period a limited force with focus on ASW is perhaps the practical way to go. Airborne resources are the most cost effective way to do this IMO.
2 squadrons AlphaJet trainer + Light Attack

2 Coast Guard squadron of Do228NG MPA for 24/7 aerial coverage of the Scottish Coast.
1 fixed wing transport squadron ATR42 (possibly with an additional 2 A400Ms leased from EU on a need to basis).
12-18 Coastal Defense ships. Perhaps the Kingston class or something similar but with a helicopter deck.
2 Amphibuous Landing Dock (LPD) - something like the San Antonio class?
2 squadrons ASW helicopters - EH101 / AW159 / AW Super 300.
1 squadron transport/SAR helicopters - AW101 Transport+SAR multi-use variant. 8 heavy lift helicopters Chinook sized.
1 VVIP flight with 2 A319CJ, 1 ATR42/72.

How much would this setup cost?

Scottish Marines would go with Scotland.

Scotland would also need its own grander, version of Sandhurst Academy. So next question in series is - What would we call it and where should it be located?
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johns624
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:02 pm

A country's defense doesn't start at its land border. By then, it's too late. Canada has a right to feel "protected" since it is right next to the US. For NZ to think that being next to Australia offers the same protection, is delusional. Australia has a good military, but it's also smaller than Canada. What is NZ going to do when those factory fishing fleets sail down to start harvesting all the fish in its huge EEZ. Two old frigates and three OPVs aren't going to cut it. To paraphrase an old saying "other countries help countries that help themselves".
 
johns624
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:09 pm

BawliBooch wrote:

12-18 Coastal Defense ships. Perhaps the Kingston class or something similar but with a helicopter deck.
2 Amphibuous Landing Dock (LPD) - something like the San Antonio class?

1. You obviously haven't read up on the shortcomings of the Kingston class. They are "okay" for coast guard duties and SAR, but that's about it. They would need a few ships at least the size of corvettes/light frigates.
2. What is the purpose of the LPDs? Amphibious capabilities are expensive and not needed in this case.
 
GSOtoIND
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:37 am

BawliBooch wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
Regarding the nuclear subs that operate out of Faslane...

Could Scotland hand the nukes over to England - in exchange for a loosely enforced promise not to get invaded?


To answer the orig question, i see an independent Scotland as a full EU member with all the mutual security guarantees in place. And there are other important priorities for a new nation.


So long as Spain is sovereign and whole, that's not happening. NATO membership requires unanimous consent (just look at Greece and [North] Macedonia as an example), and the Spanish will never allow a breakaway state into the EU/NATO, lest their various separatist regions get any bright ideas. The best they could hope for is some sort of bilateral agreement.
 
GDB
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:49 am

Another thing, with all of the many and varied ideas here, practical or not, one issue, where are the personnel coming from?
All current members joined the British Armed Forces, some might transfer to a Scottish one but I doubt too many.
As it is not exactly a great career move, either for advancement or adventure

The UK forces already get plenty of recruits from the Commonwealth, 2020 has seen the biggest intake of Gurkha recruits in 30 years, even from the non Commonwealth non Queen Head Of State Republic Of Ireland they get recruits from, as there is an arrangement between the two nations, lots of interlinked family ties, (unless that Clown in Downing Street has pissed that away too).

Would you rather join the Royal Navy, getting big carriers, all vessels deploying to all sorts of places, all the trades (including aviation, advanced systems etc), or chug around the coast on a Scottish Navy OPV?
Same with the other services, the RAF or what would be little more than a Coastguard MPA/SAR outfit?
Assuming this Independent Scotland stays in NATO they would not need to buy any fast jets, nor take any RAF ones, since the RAF (and others of course), already provide fast jet interception cover for small NATO nations like Estonia and Iceland.
The RAF of course already do QRA from Scotland.
 
bennett123
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:24 pm

There would be less of a problem with the Army, as the Scottish Regiments already exist.
 
GDB
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:36 pm

bennett123 wrote:
There would be less of a problem with the Army, as the Scottish Regiments already exist.


Yes but to coin a phrase, what would they do all day?
A major attraction is still, remarkably in an age of mass travel, well at least before Covid, to see the world, or rather an unusual job in a different place. Be it a trade, driving an armoured vehicle or a chopper, or just good old line infantry.
I bet Scottish soldiers make up a higher than per capita membership of the various SF units too.

Staying in NATO, the most likely option, means they are still ultimately under the command of an entity beyond Scotland, since they have 100's of years of experience in UK training, equipment, ethos, that command at least in the first instance would in practice be with the UK Chief Of Defence Staff.

I find it remarkable that all this stuff about what type of this, would they need that capability, none of the human aspect has been discussed really.
(Away from here, I suspect that it is the same both with the SNP with their cynical and not so secret need for the Tories and of course in Downing Street where thinking through anything seems utterly beyond that bunch of malignant c**ts).
 
johns624
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:18 pm

GDB--while some of your points are good, the thing you seem to be ignoring is those soldiers are all Scottish. I'm sure most would prefer serving their own independent country. My OP gives a reasonable military plan that would give them most of the benefits of serving in the British Army. They would have the capabilities to participate in NATO exercises and UN peacekeeping missions. I'm sure a plan would be worked out to carry over their UK experience and rank.
 
GDB
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:58 pm

johns624 wrote:
GDB--while some of your points are good, the thing you seem to be ignoring is those soldiers are all Scottish. I'm sure most would prefer serving their own independent country. My OP gives a reasonable military plan that would give them most of the benefits of serving in the British Army. They would have the capabilities to participate in NATO exercises and UN peacekeeping missions. I'm sure a plan would be worked out to carry over their UK experience and rank.


Yes they are, but they joined the British Armed Forces.
I also think it's reasonable to assume that support for Scottish Independence is rather lower with them, so were it to happen, I doubt too many would want to shift, they'd stay where they are given the choice.

Remember, even within a 'Scottish' Infantry Regiment, they work on a daily basis with others of the UK, so they are seeing most English people are not Boris style idiots, English, Welsh and N.I. born service people equally find out that their Scottish colleagues are not embittered freeloaders.
Which is essentially how the SNP and the Tories portray each other.
 
johns624
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:12 pm

With the reduced population to draw on, the UK military would have even a smaller pool to draw on. Right now, the RN has 2-3 frigates/destroyers tied up to the pier because they are short of men. The Irish join because their own military is sh+t as far as equipment and opportunities go. The Scottish military doesn't have to be.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:51 pm

GSOtoIND wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
Regarding the nuclear subs that operate out of Faslane...

Could Scotland hand the nukes over to England - in exchange for a loosely enforced promise not to get invaded?


To answer the orig question, i see an independent Scotland as a full EU member with all the mutual security guarantees in place. And there are other important priorities for a new nation.


So long as Spain is sovereign and whole, that's not happening. NATO membership requires unanimous consent (just look at Greece and [North] Macedonia as an example), and the Spanish will never allow a breakaway state into the EU/NATO, lest their various separatist regions get any bright ideas. The best they could hope for is some sort of bilateral agreement.


Not correct, Spain will block any brake away state from becoming an EU member, if the state it has broken away from is itself an EU member. The UK no longer is an EU member.
 
johns624
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:45 pm

seahawk wrote:

Not correct, Spain will block any brake away state from becoming an EU member, if the state it has broken away from is itself an EU member. The UK no longer is an EU member.
I'm sure that if Scotland offered to buy some Navantia frigates and CASA C295s, Spain might even vote "yes" for NATO membership. All politics is local and involves money.
 
Ozair
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:53 pm

johns624 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

Not correct, Spain will block any brake away state from becoming an EU member, if the state it has broken away from is itself an EU member. The UK no longer is an EU member.
I'm sure that if Scotland offered to buy some Navantia frigates and CASA C295s, Spain might even vote "yes" for NATO membership. All politics is local and involves money.

Scotland would not be buying anything, an independent Scotland wouldn't have the money to fund those types of acquisitions. If independence occurred they would inherit some existing UK military equipment and then likely underfund their military for the next 20 years. The UK Defence Journal link already posted makes it clear that a relationship with the UK militarily would continue, including UK units based in Scotland, as would membership of NATO and therefore Scotland would have little need to fund a military to the extent suggested.
 
GSOtoIND
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:14 am

seahawk wrote:
GSOtoIND wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:

To answer the orig question, i see an independent Scotland as a full EU member with all the mutual security guarantees in place. And there are other important priorities for a new nation.


So long as Spain is sovereign and whole, that's not happening. NATO membership requires unanimous consent (just look at Greece and [North] Macedonia as an example), and the Spanish will never allow a breakaway state into the EU/NATO, lest their various separatist regions get any bright ideas. The best they could hope for is some sort of bilateral agreement.


Not correct, Spain will block any brake away state from becoming an EU member, if the state it has broken away from is itself an EU member. The UK no longer is an EU member.

Ehh. I, as the hypothetical president of Scotland, wouldn't bank on that. There's no real benefit for Spain to acquiescence, while the costs could be a coup or civil war, to say nothing of lost elections.
As for their defense arrangements, I think it depends on their relationship with Britain in this scenario. If relations are good, I could see them going the Iceland route and keeping the current RAF/RN presence intact.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:32 am

It would be the same as the Baltics or the former states of Yugoslavia, neither was blocked by Spain.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:19 am

johns624 wrote:
With the reduced population to draw on, the UK military would have even a smaller pool to draw on. Right now, the RN has 2-3 frigates/destroyers tied up to the pier because they are short of men. The Irish join because their own military is sh+t as far as equipment and opportunities go. The Scottish military doesn't have to be.


Remember, that Scotland is about 5.5M people, and the UK as a whole is about 67M people. So subtract about 1 person in 12. An effect, but not huge.

So many people think Scotland has more population that it does. It's smaller than Chicago and suburbs.
 
Noray
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:24 am

kitplane01 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
With the reduced population to draw on, the UK military would have even a smaller pool to draw on. Right now, the RN has 2-3 frigates/destroyers tied up to the pier because they are short of men. The Irish join because their own military is sh+t as far as equipment and opportunities go. The Scottish military doesn't have to be.


Remember, that Scotland is about 5.5M people, and the UK as a whole is about 67M people. So subtract about 1 person in 12. An effect, but not huge.

So many people think Scotland has more population that it does. It's smaller than Chicago and suburbs.

It has as many as or more inhabitants than:

116 – Finland – 5,540,720
117 – Congo – 5,518,087
118 – Slovakia – 5,459,642
119 – Norway – 5,421,241
120 – Oman – 5,106,626
121 – State of Palestine – 5,101,414
122 – Costa Rica – 5,094,118
123 – Liberia – 5,057,681
124 – Ireland – 4,937,786
125 – Central African Republic – 4,829,767
126 – New Zealand – 4,822,233
127 – Mauritania – 4,649,658
128 – Panama – 4,314,767
129 – Kuwait – 4,270,571
130 – Croatia – 4,105,267
131 – Moldova – 4,033,963
132 – Georgia – 3,989,167
133 – Eritrea – 3,546,421
134 – Uruguay – 3,473,730
135 – Bosnia and Herzegovina – 3,280,819
136 – Mongolia – 3,278,290
137 – Armenia – 2,963,243
138 – Jamaica – 2,961,167
139 – Qatar – 2,881,053
140 – Albania – 2,877,797
141 – Puerto Rico – 2,860,853
142 – Lithuania – 2,722,289
143 – Namibia – 2,540,905
144 – Gambia – 2,416,668
145 – Botswana – 2,351,627
146 – Gabon – 2,225,734
147 – Lesotho – 2,142,249
148 – North Macedonia – 2,083,374
149 – Slovenia – 2,078,938
150 – Guinea-Bissau – 1,968,001
151 – Latvia – 1,886,198
152 – Bahrain – 1,701,575
153 – Equatorial Guinea – 1,402,985
154 – Trinidad and Tobago – 1,399,488
155 – Estonia – 1,326,535
156 – Timor-Leste – 1,318,445
157 – Mauritius – 1,271,768
158 – Cyprus – 1,207,359
159 – Eswatini – 1,160,164
160 – Djibouti – 988
161 – Fiji – 896,445
162 – Réunion – 895,312
163 – Comoros – 869,601
164 – Guyana – 786,552
165 – Bhutan – 771,608
166 – Solomon Islands – 686,884
167 – Macao – 649,335
168 – Montenegro – 628,066
169 – Luxembourg – 625,978
170 – Western Sahara – 597,339
171 – Suriname – 586,632
172 – Cabo Verde – 555,987
173 – Maldives – 540,544
174 – Malta – 441,543
175 – Brunei – 437,479
176 – Guadeloupe – 400,124
177 – Belize – 397,628
178 – Bahamas – 393,244
179 – Martinique – 375,265
180 – Iceland – 341,243

... and many more (numbers from worldometers.info).

The Scottish GDP is similar to those of Greece, New Zealand or Peru.
 
johns624
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:27 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
With the reduced population to draw on, the UK military would have even a smaller pool to draw on. Right now, the RN has 2-3 frigates/destroyers tied up to the pier because they are short of men. The Irish join because their own military is sh+t as far as equipment and opportunities go. The Scottish military doesn't have to be.


Remember, that Scotland is about 5.5M people, and the UK as a whole is about 67M people. So subtract about 1 person in 12. An effect, but not huge.

So many people think Scotland has more population that it does. It's smaller than Chicago and suburbs.

I'm very aware of the size of Scotland and have been there several times. That's why earlier, I was comparing it to Denmark and Norway, two similar sized countries. I also know that the British Army has a disproportionate share of Scots in its ranks.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:13 am

seahawk wrote:
It would be the same as the Baltics or the former states of Yugoslavia, neither was blocked by Spain.


I could be wrong, but I believe that Spain still does not recognize Kosovo. No established Western European state wants the regional independence domino to fall, and that includes in addition to the aforementioned Spain, countries like Italy, Belgium and Germany.

It is very likely in my opinion that:

A) Scottish independence would be the dog catching the car...there is no real plan for it occurring or a real expectation for it to happen. It remains a negotiation position between Edinburgh and London.

B) The Scots would fund their Military like the Icelanders do, basically by not doing so.

C) Ninety plus percent of the Jocks in the Forces would change their nationality to British and remain in the UK Forces. Perhaps some junior personnel would stay for personal or professional reasons. Even if there were some provision of equipment, the UK Forces are stretched anorexically managing what they've got now.

D) The British military has a variety of contingency plans for replacing the infrastructure in Scotland. The converse is not true.
 
WIederling
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:31 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Scotland would also need its own grander, version of Sandhurst Academy. So next question in series is - What would we call it and where should it be located?


Carbisdale Castle, till 2011 a SYHA Youth Hostel. a really grand place. reasonably modern construction.
Murphy is an optimist
 
johns624
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:32 pm

WIederling wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Scotland would also need its own grander, version of Sandhurst Academy. So next question in series is - What would we call it and where should it be located?


Carbisdale Castle, till 2011 a SYHA Youth Hostel. a really grand place. reasonably modern construction.

Nah, Balmoral would be available. The Queen wouldn't need it anymore...
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:44 am

johns624 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

Not correct, Spain will block any brake away state from becoming an EU member, if the state it has broken away from is itself an EU member. The UK no longer is an EU member.
I'm sure that if Scotland offered to buy some Navantia frigates and CASA C295s, Spain might even vote "yes" for NATO membership. All politics is local and involves money.


Why would Scotland buy Spanish frigates when they have there own shipbuilding industry? That would be political suicide.

An independent Scotland will have a military similar to Ireland’s, if anyone thinks differently they’re not looking at who will make up the govt of an independent Scotland.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:50 am

johns624 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Scotland would also need its own grander, version of Sandhurst Academy. So next question in series is - What would we call it and where should it be located?


Carbisdale Castle, till 2011 a SYHA Youth Hostel. a really grand place. reasonably modern construction.

Nah, Balmoral would be available. The Queen wouldn't need it anymore...


Balmoral is The Queens personal property, it’s not the Westminster’s to give away or Edinburgh’s to take over, besides she will remain as Monarch of Scotland, they’re aren’t planning on becoming a republic.
 
WIederling
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:03 am

johns624 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Scotland would also need its own grander, version of Sandhurst Academy. So next question in series is - What would we call it and where should it be located?


Carbisdale Castle, till 2011 a SYHA Youth Hostel. a really grand place. reasonably modern construction.

Nah, Balmoral would be available. The Queen wouldn't need it anymore...


That would be a major financial drain.
Scots are thrifty.
( Should lend Balmoral to the Queen of England. !income! )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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GCT64
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:02 am

Kiwirob wrote:
An independent Scotland will have a military similar to Ireland’s, if anyone thinks differently they’re not looking at who will make up the govt of an independent Scotland.


I think that is absolutely correct.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
johns624
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:44 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Why would Scotland buy Spanish frigates when they have there own shipbuilding industry? That would be political suicide.

I never said where they would be built, did I? They'd be a cheaper, better fit for them than a Type 26. Even your "adopted" country bought them.
 
WIederling
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:45 pm

GCT64 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
An independent Scotland will have a military similar to Ireland’s, if anyone thinks differently they’re not looking at who will make up the govt of an independent Scotland.


I think that is absolutely correct.


strange tidbit ( for me ) Scotland @ 5.5m has (slightly) more inhabitants than RoI @ 4.9m ( NI is 1.8 )
Murphy is an optimist
 
GDB
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
johns624 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

Not correct, Spain will block any brake away state from becoming an EU member, if the state it has broken away from is itself an EU member. The UK no longer is an EU member.
I'm sure that if Scotland offered to buy some Navantia frigates and CASA C295s, Spain might even vote "yes" for NATO membership. All politics is local and involves money.


Why would Scotland buy Spanish frigates when they have there own shipbuilding industry? That would be political suicide.

An independent Scotland will have a military similar to Ireland’s, if anyone thinks differently they’re not looking at who will make up the govt of an independent Scotland.


Therein lies the leverage, if they want any more orders from the RN.
The SNP gets the hots for wanting to expel Trident, however the rest of the SSN fleet would go too, not just the SSBN's, so a lot of jobs there.
More to the point, if they want want to remain in NATO, (presumably they have never said otherwise), just doing that would seriously piss off other NATO member governments.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:35 pm

For UK a.netters only.:
It’s been widely reported in the UK media that
Hazel McWitch from the much loved TV show “Rentaghost” will be the new Scottish Air Marshall.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:05 pm

johns624 wrote:
GDB--while some of your points are good, the thing you seem to be ignoring is those soldiers are all Scottish. I'm sure most would prefer serving their own independent country. My OP gives a reasonable military plan that would give them most of the benefits of serving in the British Army. They would have the capabilities to participate in NATO exercises and UN peacekeeping missions. I'm sure a plan would be worked out to carry over their UK experience and rank.


I can tell you from first hand experience with all of the components of the British military, the number of people who when directly facing the choice six years ago was less than 1 in 10. That didn't seem to change 6 years later, during another posting with the British military. The less than 10% would be basically the very junior and a very few of the very senior close to retirement. The vast majority would stay in the UK and the wide variety of postings and post-career employment thereof. Even fewer takers would among the most immediately useful, like SOF, intelligence, medical, aviation and other high demand/low density/high investment skill sets. You don't conjure combat divers, qualified human intelligence and analytical talent, aviators, and combat trauma surgeons (though Friday in a Glasgow ED might count.) The British, at the scale they are operating on, are having challenges recruiting, training and retaining such talent.

Now, you can reject that for being a non-scientific example size, but the reality is even today a large number of Irish, in addition to the Ghurkas elect to serve in the UK Forces.

As noted, the career milestones, training, overseas deployments, equipment and funding for a presumptive Scottish military are in the range of Iceland to Ireland, not the UK or Australia, which is the option for members of the British Armed forces. These are the things that make second career employment possible, and in cases lucrative.

The Scottish military would take a decade or more to generate a battlegroup, let alone much more than most basic off-shore patrol capacity with real domain awareness. Sure, they could show the flag at a UNPKO at a small component or staff officer level, but that's a scrimmage compared to even a small scale limited NATO exercise or NATO or EUTM deployment. Again, I say this as someone who has done UNPKOs and regional peacekeeping/peacemaking training and operations. This assumes the Scottish government is able to afford or just magic into existence the kit and sustainment necessary for a modern force doing even permissive operations, let alone duking it out with the 76th Guards Air Assault in Tallinn or extremists in Central Africa or Somalia.

Frankly, a more realistic course of action would be straight up hire Canadian/British/Australian and American contractors, commission them into a SDF and build from the ground up.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:02 pm

...
Last edited by acecrackshot on Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JJJ
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:55 am

kitplane01 wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
Expecting Scotland to stay in NATO, it surely will get some help. There's so much water to surveillance...


I imagine Ireland has an even larger water to search. And yet ...

(Although to be fair, so does Norway and Norway spends real money on defense.)


Norway is considerably wealthier than Scotland and shares a border with Russia.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Hypothetical Scottish Military

Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:59 am

johns624 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Why would Scotland buy Spanish frigates when they have there own shipbuilding industry? That would be political suicide.

I never said where they would be built, did I? They'd be a cheaper, better fit for them than a Type 26. Even your "adopted" country bought them.


They did, it wasn't a popular decision at the time. That said Norway's shipbuilding industry has no experience building frigates. Scotland on the other has experience going back decades.

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Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos