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Nomadd
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:09 pm

Getting a 120 ton spaceship rotated 90 degrees in less than two seconds takes a lot of power. And remember that stopping that rotation will take an equal amount of power. Cold gas thrusters or parachutes could never come anywhere close. Maybe when they get hot gas thrusters online, but right now it has to be main engines to rotate and mains to stop rotating in that short a time.
It's not really that complicated on paper. You have to light the mains for landing anyhow, and the rotation is just another parameter to program. Not much more complicated than keeping upright. Getting the engines going has been the problem. I don't know if there is any such thing as a cryo bladder, so it could take some doing.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:03 pm

And don't forget the header tanks exist to deal with the issue trying to feed engines from nearly empty tanks while flipping all over the place.The issue is likely not in the amount of fuel in the tanks. But rather pressurization (identified in the SN8 boom), startup during high dynamic movements, or some piping design problem. It's entirely plausible that SN10 goes with a relight attempt on all three before shutting one down if all three light.

The SpaceX engineers aren't intending to throw away prototypes if not needed. I'm sure they'd rather test a prototype once or twice then scavenge it for parts before scrapping the hull. They aren't afraid of losing prototypes, it just isn't the primary aim.
 
texl1649
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:46 pm

The relight, of a full cycle engine (all fuel running thru the preburners), falling at 200 mph, horizontally, with a spark ignition system, seems like it’s a bit trickier than some expected. I hope they do figure it out in the next couple of attempts.
 
Okie
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:00 pm

texl1649 wrote:
The relight, of a full cycle engine (all fuel running thru the preburners), falling at 200 mph, horizontally, with a spark ignition system, seems like it’s a bit trickier than some expected. I hope they do figure it out in the next couple of attempts.


The use of TEA-TEB Pyrophoric has been as reliable as gravity for ignition of rocket motors.

Okie
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:53 am

Okie wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
The relight, of a full cycle engine (all fuel running thru the preburners), falling at 200 mph, horizontally, with a spark ignition system, seems like it’s a bit trickier than some expected. I hope they do figure it out in the next couple of attempts.


The use of TEA-TEB Pyrophoric has been as reliable as gravity for ignition of rocket motors.

Okie


But is worthless once you run out of TEA-TEB. The reason for spark igniters is for full reusability. Even on places like the Moon and Mars where there's no real way to make TEA-TEB in situ like you can with Oxygen and Methane.
 
memphiX
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:38 am

meecrob wrote:
Their goal is to be fuel efficient, which means a late flip. Unless they hit a wall somewhere, they are going to develop the fuel system/engines rather than modify the descent profile.


Isn't that opposite to Musk's and SpaceX's philosophy and innovation in general? Don't be too rigid to your plan. If you tried something and it didn't work, try something else. They did just that when they figured that one of the Falcons didn't have enough fuel to land.

I think the issue with restarting one of the engines is probably related to tank pressure and the location of fuel lines. When the rocket is upright with the correct pressure, the tubes are fine where they are (on the bottom). But when the rocket is feathering (on its side), is there enough fuel in the tank to cover the tubes?

I would relocate them to whichever side that they want to feather to and add sloshing baffles to the tanks.
 
texl1649
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:09 am

The thing is the belly flop descent has worked pretty well, and at least one engine has fired up both times. They have continued/changed the systems for fuel control with the second one, and will try to light all three on the next one. I wouldn’t say they are being too rigid yet, just that they are finding challenges and working thru them.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:08 pm

Disappointingly, it seems B1049 has been taken off the roster altogether, after several delays trying to launch Starlink L17, which may not happen at all now.

The next Starlink launch is now scheduled in a few days with B1059 and Wiki has marked B1049 as 'temporarily out of service', though I can't find anymore info on this. It would have been its 8th flight.
End of the line for the oldest F9 block 5 booster?

Since I suspect it may be a while before we see another Starship hop, things may get a bit boring for a while, in relative terms of course... SpaceX is still moving faster than any other launch company anywhere by an order of magnitude.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
FGITD
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:21 pm

Sn10 doing the cryo tests now, read some rumors that they’d like to try a static fire either today or tomorrow. Seems extremely ambitious to me, but then again so did doing multiple static fires in the same day, and so did pretty much everything else they’ve accomplished so far.

SN11 I read is also nearing completion, missing the aft flaps.
 
Okie
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:59 pm

FGITD wrote:
Sn10 doing the cryo tests now, read some rumors that they’d like to try a static fire either today or tomorrow. Seems extremely ambitious to me, but then again so did doing multiple static fires in the same day, and so did pretty much everything else they’ve accomplished so far.


Well they have massive amount of data these days other than just visuals that us sidewalk superintendents have. They probably know without a doubt as to what the failure was to a component, timing or otherwise.
They are constantly upgrading the Raptor. So no telling which version they are using now and production upgrades may have already addressed the issue by using the upgraded versions.

IMO since they did not do any additional work to the internals structures such as piping in the stack, then it is pretty obvious what ever issue they had they determined it was under the skirt. My guess is a turbopump problem or sensor line that could have broken.

Okie
 
FGITD
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:21 pm

Okie wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Sn10 doing the cryo tests now, read some rumors that they’d like to try a static fire either today or tomorrow. Seems extremely ambitious to me, but then again so did doing multiple static fires in the same day, and so did pretty much everything else they’ve accomplished so far.


Well they have massive amount of data these days other than just visuals that us sidewalk superintendents have. They probably know without a doubt as to what the failure was to a component, timing or otherwise.
They are constantly upgrading the Raptor. So no telling which version they are using now and production upgrades may have already addressed the issue by using the upgraded versions.

IMO since they did not do any additional work to the internals structures such as piping in the stack, then it is pretty obvious what ever issue they had they determined it was under the skirt. My guess is a turbopump problem or sensor line that could have broken.

Okie


Agreed with all your points. It’s why I enjoy the chatter and rumors, but it’s always prudent to remember what the folks like Nomadd have said. The people that actually know the answers are not the ones talking about it.

For us on the outside it’s fun to watch, but most of our technical assessment boils down to “well damn, I hope this one doesn’t blow up”

Also just saw that surface to unlimited TFRs have apparently been posted for Feb 11-13. So it seems like if all goes to plan, we may indeed see a launch later this week.
 
Okie
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:04 pm

FGITD wrote:
Also just saw that surface to unlimited TFRs have apparently been posted for Feb 11-13. So it seems like if all goes to plan, we may indeed see a launch later this week.


I had seen that as well.
The 10km-FL320 and 12.5km-FL410 are not really that high when you are talking Low Earth Orbit numbers.

It will be interesting to see how high they will go.

I want to see if they have to replace any Raptors after the test fire.

Okie
 
744SPX
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:09 pm

FGITD wrote:
Sn10 doing the cryo tests now, read some rumors that they’d like to try a static fire either today or tomorrow. Seems extremely ambitious to me, but then again so did doing multiple static fires in the same day, and so did pretty much everything else they’ve accomplished so far.

SN11 I read is also nearing completion, missing the aft flaps.



True, but if they want to get to launching multiple Starships on a daily basis, I'm expecting they have to be significantly increasing the cryo test/static fire pace right now to meet the long term goals.
 
FGITD
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:13 am

Awkward moment on the starlink launch tonight. Drone ship camera caught a quick glow, then nothing but a few seagulls sitting around the deck.

First time in almost a year that a falcon 9 landing has failed
 
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Francoflier
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:13 am

Oopsie...

B1059 is no more.
After successfully pushing Starlink L19 into orbit, something happened during re-entry.
It seems some flames were still coming out of the bottom of the booster after what looked like a normal entry burn. Stage 1 telemetry was lost shortly afterwards. A distant flash could be seen from the droneship camera around scheduled landing time, along with a few nonplussed seagulls resting, undisturbed, on the landing pad...

That was B1059's 6th (and final) flight.

Right when it seemed everything was fined tuned and settling into a routine, Murphy strikes again.
Space is hard.

On a more positive note, B1049 is back on the roster after some 'technical difficulties' and is due to launch the delayed Starlink L17 tomorrow, its 8th mission. Hopefully it fares better.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:39 am

Oh no... :cry2:

...at least a sock of fleagulls is getting a free ride back to Florida...

I'm eager to learn what went wrong with ol' fifty-nine.

Meanwhile, a power outage in the bottom part of the US has taken out LabPadre's cameras. All you can see now are replays.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Nomadd
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:09 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Oh no... :cry2:
...at least a sock of fleagulls is getting a free ride back to Florida...
I'm eager to learn what went wrong with ol' fifty-nine.
Meanwhile, a power outage in the bottom part of the US has taken out LabPadre's cameras. All you can see now are replays.

It wasn't the outage. That was in the dark hours and he's solar powered.
He didn't put enough backup in to account for a week of cloudy days. Nobody ever does. They rely on charts made by people who don't believe in the real world. The coldest temperatures in years didn't help battery capacity either.
Same with NSF. I courageously and selflessly journeyed across miles of frozen wasteland at great personal risk to get their camera going yesterday, but they didn't need advice from someone who's put hundreds of remote solar powered data installations in on how to do it right.
I'm headed to town now to accept the golden pizza award for going above and beyond.

Hint of the day...If you really need to buy 12V lithium backups, don't get the crappy 11V 3 cell series ones, since a lot of 12V equipment is borderline at that voltage and is nothing but trouble. 4 cells in series probably won't blow anything up. Slap a bigass diode or two in line if it worries you.
 
tommy1808
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:40 pm

Nomadd wrote:
4 cells in series probably won't blow anything up. Slap a bigass diode or two in line if it worries you.


Or spend the extra 25$ on something like a Meanwell RSD-30G-12 and you can use even more.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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MadAstronaut
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:27 pm

Guys, I want to ask your opinion. What do you think about countries that frankly copy SpaceX's concepts? Is it good or bad for the company and the reputation of this country?
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:53 pm

MadAstronaut wrote:
Guys, I want to ask your opinion. What do you think about countries that frankly copy SpaceX's concepts? Is it good or bad for the company and the reputation of this country?


No "country" is copying anything. But a company, Electron Labs, is already copying SpaceX, IMO.

All you need is a devout Muskovite with a lot of money, *then* you can copy the business concept (accepting risks and failure, lots of testing, rewarding creativity). And it's a good thing. It will mean broader (but not necessarily cheaper) access to space. When a competitor is finally matching Falcon 9 on costs and capabilities, SpaceX will already have a mature, interplanetary Starship with lots of memes, smokables and catgirls aboard.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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zululima
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:58 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
No "country" is copying anything. But a company, Electron Labs, is already copying SpaceX, IMO.


You clearly don't know what you're talking about. There is no such company. If you're referring to Rocket Lab and the Electron booster, they are very different than SpaceX, although both are "new-space" companies. There are, however, in China, several (ostensibly private) companies trying to copy some of SpaceX's operations, mostly of the Falcon 9 variety. Others even try to associate themselves indirectly using lame copycat names e.g. "ExPace".
I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
 
tommy1808
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:57 am

MadAstronaut wrote:
Guys, I want to ask your opinion. What do you think about countries that frankly copy SpaceX's concepts? Is it good or bad for the company and the reputation of this country?


You mean copying the DC-X, that SpaceX based its design on?

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
FGITD
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:45 pm

If you start following that path it never ends. Did SpaceX steal the idea from fireball xl5...or the many other scifi shows of that era?

Personally I think the Herge estate will be owed some money once starship is up and running. Tintin took what is basically a starship to the moon back in the 50s.

In more relevant news, they’ve somehow already swapped out and tested a new raptor on Sn10. In total, I believe from swap to test was less than 24 hours.
 
tommy1808
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:26 am

FGITD wrote:
If you start following that path it never ends. Did SpaceX steal the idea from fireball xl5...or the many other scifi shows of that era?.


The DC-X was a real flying machine and SpaceX had access to the program data, that is a bit different from a sci-fi show.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Nomadd
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:30 am

tommy1808 wrote:
MadAstronaut wrote:
Guys, I want to ask your opinion. What do you think about countries that frankly copy SpaceX's concepts? Is it good or bad for the company and the reputation of this country?

You mean copying the DC-X, that SpaceX based its design on?
Best regards
Thomas

Maybe you'd like to accuse them of ripping off the Chinese guy who invented rockets 800 years ago next, or some other nonsense. DC-X had exactly nothing to do with any SpaceX design.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:33 am

Welp, another scrub at T -1:24 for Starlink L17 and B1049 tonight... After being delayed about a hundred times since late January, then taken off the roster altogether, then put back on, then delayed again.
I'm starting to wonder if B1049 will ever fly again.

SpaceX is going through a bit of a trough these days it seems, between delayed and aborted launches, failed booster landings and fiery displays at Boca Chica. Maybe they just raised our expectations too much...
Space is hard.
Hopefully things get back on track soon.

Nomadd wrote:
DC-X had exactly nothing to do with any SpaceX design.


Not that I disagree with your point, but didn't a bunch of engineers who worked on DC-X find jobs with Blue Origin and SpaceX?
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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Nomadd
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:30 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Welp, another scrub at T -1:24 for Starlink L17 and B1049 tonight... After being delayed about a hundred times since late January, then taken off the roster altogether, then put back on, then delayed again.
I'm starting to wonder if B1049 will ever fly again.

SpaceX is going through a bit of a trough these days it seems, between delayed and aborted launches, failed booster landings and fiery displays at Boca Chica. Maybe they just raised our expectations too much...
Space is hard.
Hopefully things get back on track soon.

Nomadd wrote:
DC-X had exactly nothing to do with any SpaceX design.


Not that I disagree with your point, but didn't a bunch of engineers who worked on DC-X find jobs with Blue Origin and SpaceX?

As far as I can tell, the company is made up entirely of 22 year old interns. I have more gray hair than all of these guys put together.
I can lift more sea turtles than any of them too.
 
texl1649
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:20 pm

Another last minute abort for starship today, just at/after ignition. Tease!
 
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litz
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:34 pm

Retry around 5pm apparently
 
FGITD
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:26 pm

Magnificent. One of the most impressive things I think I’ve ever seen.
 
GDB
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:30 pm

Brilliant! A historic achievement.
Yes they landed it, with a lot of flames afterwards and a lean, however apparently the 'leg's are very temporary, the aim to to prove propulsive landing for Starship proved for the first time.
But it's just blown up!
Wonder what caused that?
No matter, it did it's job.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:33 pm

HOLY MOLIES AND HEEBIE JEEBIES!

That was wonderful to watch!

GDB wrote:
But it's just blown up!


...what? :eyepopping: :hissyfit:

I closed the live stream...
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Stitch
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:36 pm

Yup. Still a success in my book.
 
Okie
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:45 pm

Looking like another RUD.

Appeared there was still an issue getting a second engine restarted or a issue that shut down the additional engine causing a hard landing which apparently caused damage to the structure.

Slow motion of the explosion was pretty impressive. The nose cone was crumpling from the acceleration milliseconds before you could actually see the pyrotechnics from the explosion.

I just question whether they decided that the damage was such they chose to hit the self destruct button because they could not safely defuel due to damage from the hard landing.


Okie
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:58 pm

Okie wrote:
I just question whether they decided that the damage was such they chose to hit the self destruct button because they could not safely defuel due to damage from the hard landing.


To me, it doesn't look like an intentional destruction. The explosion happened near the skirt, and not where the FTS is located.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Tugger
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:06 am

They lit all three engines this time then shut two of them down in rapid succession once the flip manuver was completed and stable decent flight attained. It appears they'll need to adjust that part of the process as the landing was HARD looking, I think it bounced! No way it is designed for that, so that there was damage "below" is not surprising to me.

Ah well, I can only congratulate the SpaceX, they accomplished a lot today: A successful (mostly) intact landing of the Starship!
And with the past efforts showing how they iterate and learn I am looking forward to see what they learned and accomplish next!

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Francoflier
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:20 am

Well... I guess that's progress.
The longer you delay the fireball, the better, right?
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casinterest
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:31 am

I am guessing they just couldn't contain the fire after that landing/crash with style.
I think the landing gear failed, and the skirt was on the ground, with some rupturing, but will need a spacex cam to confirm.


Still proved the flip and they slowed down with the engines functioning,
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Francoflier
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:21 am

casinterest wrote:
I am guessing they just couldn't contain the fire after that landing/crash with style.


These raptors seem to have a tendency to set themselves, and everything around them, on fire...
The fire started when they shut down two of the engines after the flip, and was never contained. The hard landing probably didn't help.

That's the downside of using methane. Being a gas, it leaks easily. It also ignites easily and is very hard to put out once it's on fire, especially if the leak is still going (and especially with these puny garden hoses that SpaceX had around the pad).
Unlike H2, it is not that much lighter than air that it dissipates quickly and tends to linger a bit near the source of the leak...
That's definitely another challenge they will have to tackle.

Somebody better tell Mr. Maezawa that he's probably not getting anywhere near the Moon in 2023, because despite the rapid progress, I can't see NASA allowing humans in this thing for a while yet.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
GDB
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:27 am

SpaceX footage, does not include the explosion which happened some time afterwards;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODY6JWzS8WU
 
Heinkel
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:10 am

The Guardian shows the exlosion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEoYM7xXMno

Looks like it landed hard and got damage. It stood not vertical after landing.

And an active fire burnt after landing.

I think the charismatic Mr. Musk must still learn a lot how to build a reliable space missile.

Money alone and positive business speech doesn't help.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:36 am

Heinkel wrote:

Money alone and positive business speech doesn't help.


He has enough money to fail and stumble forward - for years to come. He does not have to keep anybody happy. Except the F9/FH customers and SpaceX employees.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Francoflier
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:50 am

Heinkel wrote:
I think the charismatic Mr. Musk must still learn a lot how to build a reliable space missile.

Money alone and positive business speech doesn't help.


I don't know about that... I'd say he's built space vehicles that are better than most others already, with much less resources.

Case in point: B1049 finally flew tonight, after multiple delays, successfully pushing Starlink L17 to orbit and landing back on the barge for the 8th time, equaling its brother B1051 for most launches and recoveries, both being on their way to the 10 launches target.

The achievements are spectacular, the problem is that they are overshadowed by Musk's own ludicrously ambitious goals.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
mxaxai
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:41 am

Francoflier wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I am guessing they just couldn't contain the fire after that landing/crash with style.


These raptors seem to have a tendency to set themselves, and everything around them, on fire...
The fire started when they shut down two of the engines after the flip, and was never contained. The hard landing probably didn't help.

That's the downside of using methane. Being a gas, it leaks easily.

I wouldn't say it leaks any more easily than liquids like kerosene. With the proper valves and plumbing, only trace amounts of gas should be leaking.

Of course if there was a crack in the tank after the hard landing, or some valves got bent, you could end up with propellant leaking all over the place.

Okie wrote:
Appeared there was still an issue getting a second engine restarted or a issue that shut down the additional engine causing a hard landing which apparently caused damage to the structure.

Okie

I think the engine shut down was intentional. You can see the two shut-down engines gimble away immediately, to not interfere with the remaining running engine.

The single engine appears to be insufficient to slow down Starship, though. I would expect that two engines running on a low power setting would provide more margin than a single engine at full thrust.
 
GDB
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:51 am

Heinkel wrote:
The Guardian shows the exlosion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEoYM7xXMno

Looks like it landed hard and got damage. It stood not vertical after landing.

And an active fire burnt after landing.

I think the charismatic Mr. Musk must still learn a lot how to build a reliable space missile.

Money alone and positive business speech doesn't help.


And the way to build a reliable launcher is to do what Space X are doing, test, test and test again.
For someone who only entered the business less than 20 years ago, he has effectively shamed traditional contractors, who were happy to take the (often taxpayers) money, do little innovation and certainly nothing as game changing.
Space X in a short time has totally changed the launch business, anyone else routinely landing first stages to re-use multiple times?
Even with SN10, the previous abort just on ignition was fixed and a few hours later, it flew.
Hours, not days, weeks, nor months.

The net effect of this has also been to give NASA a sense of direction lacking in decades, Starship as an operational vehicle is a way off, it might never be human rated, even if that did happen you would still have the means to lift loads much larger, at much less cost, which would still transform spaceflight.

They also own their problems, what a contrast with Boeing and it's Starliner, they actually tried to BS their way out of that failed test, maybe too used to getting their way via their army of lobbyists.
There is a much seen video of all the Falcon 9 attempts that failed, released by Space X, one day there will be one for Starship too.
 
aumaverick
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:48 pm

Looks to me like two things happened:
1) A methane leak as a result of rapid engine start and subsequent shutdown of the 2 engines once the stable descent was achieved. Could the leak have been caused by the rapid shift and pressure fluctuations from the engine starts, which in turn could have lead to...
2) Landing leg damage at the time of deployment. In the video capture, it appears the landing legs are damaged, as several appear to be flapping/dangling rather than locked. This lack of integrity in the landing legs most likely caused the lean on touchdown. As others have noted, the landing legs look like they need to be upgraded now that the flip-to-land maneuver has been achieved.

Video capture of the landing leg deployment seen below courtesy of @labpadre and @spacex_spacenews
https://www.instagram.com/p/CL_d0BbjRLp/?igshid=1ezsndtsn2v97
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Nomadd
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:49 pm

aumaverick wrote:
Looks to me like two things happened:
1) A methane leak as a result of rapid engine start and subsequent shutdown of the 2 engines once the stable descent was achieved. Could the leak have been caused by the rapid shift and pressure fluctuations from the engine starts, which in turn could have lead to...
2) Landing leg damage at the time of deployment. In the video capture, it appears the landing legs are damaged, as several appear to be flapping/dangling rather than locked. This lack of integrity in the landing legs most likely caused the lean on touchdown. As others have noted, the landing legs look like they need to be upgraded now that the flip-to-land maneuver has been achieved.

Video capture of the landing leg deployment seen below courtesy of @labpadre and @spacex_spacenews
https://www.instagram.com/p/CL_d0BbjRLp/?igshid=1ezsndtsn2v97

I think you're pretty close. They're working on the real landing legs. They're turning out to be more trouble than they anticipated.
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FGITD
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:44 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Heinkel wrote:
I think the charismatic Mr. Musk must still learn a lot how to build a reliable space missile.

Money alone and positive business speech doesn't help.


I don't know about that... I'd say he's built space vehicles that are better than most others already, with much less resources.

Case in point: B1049 finally flew tonight, after multiple delays, successfully pushing Starlink L17 to orbit and landing back on the barge for the 8th time, equaling its brother B1051 for most launches and recoveries, both being on their way to the 10 launches target.

The achievements are spectacular, the problem is that they are overshadowed by Musk's own ludicrously ambitious goals.


It’s certainly an odd take given that SpaceX has a “reliable space missile” in active use, and is the only human rated space vehicle in the US for now. I’d say there’s a lot to learn, but a halfway decent foundation is set.

The significance of sn10 is the proof of concept. Yes, it blew up. But the last few blew up by hitting the ground hard. This one blew up by hitting the ground a bit softer. Watching it land pre-RUD I couldn't believe that this was going to work. I've watched all the tests possible since very early on in the company, but I was still very skeptical.

But if you watch sn9 and think that a few weeks later, they'd have one that survived initially, you realize the progress. It's a long road ahead, but it can be done
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:12 pm

Just a few questions...

- has the Starship size been finalized? Until SN8, there has been a progression of larger test vehicles, starting with Hoppy. AFAIK the current Starships have small tanks, ones that only have to supply atmospheric Raptors for 4-ish minutes of powered flight.
- has there been any indication of when the Booster will be first flown, e.g. for hover tests?
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Stitch
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:53 pm

Okie wrote:
Appeared there was still an issue getting a second engine restarted or a issue that shut down the additional engine causing a hard landing which apparently caused damage to the structure.

mxaxai wrote:
I think the engine shut down was intentional. You can see the two shut-down engines gimble away immediately, to not interfere with the remaining running engine.


As I understand it, your synopsis is correct mxaxai.

I believe all three engines are supposed to fire to slow down the vehicle, but then it is supposed to land on only one engine. I saw all three fire, then one go out and it continued descent on two. At that point I could not tell if two were still running or just the intended one as it touched down.

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