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Sokes
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Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:36 am

From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_KC ... ratotanker
"The Air Force projected that E and R models have lifetime flying hour limits of 36,000 and 39,000 hours, respectively. According to the Air Force, only a few KC-135s would reach these limits by 2040, when some aircraft would be about 80 years old. A later 2005 Air Force study estimated that KC-135Es upgraded to the R standard could remain in use until 2030.[9][better source needed]

In 2006, the KC-135E fleet was flying an annual average of 350 hours per aircraft and the KC-135R fleet was flying an annual average of 710 hours per aircraft. The KC-135 fleet is currently flying double its planned yearly flying hour program to meet airborne refueling requirements, and has resulted in higher than forecast usage and sustainment costs.[31] In March 2009, the Air Force indicated that KC-135s would require additional skin replacement to allow their continued use beyond 2018.[32]"

Sounds like 50 years use is overdoing it.
But it also sounds like buying new is overdoing it.
Could one make a tanker out of a 12 year old A330-200?
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:23 am

Sokes wrote:
Could one make a tanker out of a 12 year old A330-200?

Yes. The RAAF uses two Qantas A330-200 aircraft that were converted into tankers. The rest of their MRTT were brand new.

The A330-200 makes an excellent tanker.
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:20 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Yes. The RAAF uses two Qantas A330-200 aircraft that were converted into tankers. The rest of their MRTT were brand new.

The A330-200 makes an excellent tanker.

I found a video on google.
https://youtu.be/y1GBoeHPJvA
But I believe that refers to conversion of new aircraft. I believe the plane transports troops on the main deck and/ or cargo on the lower deck and/ or fuel in the wings.
Would Airbus be willing to convert old planes or who does that?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:34 pm

Sokes wrote:
Would Airbus be willing to convert old planes or who does that?

Yes, Airbus converted the two used frames for the RAAF, in their facilities in Europe. https://adbr.com.au/raaf-considering-mo ... onversion/
Some of the new-builds were converted by Northrop-Grumman in Australia, with a bit of support from Airbus.

IAI offers a third-party conversion for used 767-300: https://www.iai.co.il/p/multi-mission-t ... sport-mmtt
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:03 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Yes, Airbus converted the two used frames for the RAAF, in their facilities in Europe. https://adbr.com.au/raaf-considering-mo ... onversion/

Thanks.
Your article says Airbus is willing to study a proposal to get two (!) old A330-200 converted in Australia.
Hard to imagine to train new labour for two planes. Even the video I posted earlier didn't look like economy of scale to me at all.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:32 pm

AFAIK, the A310MRTTs were conversions of passenger aircraft as well, as were a large number of 707s.

Sokes wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Yes, Airbus converted the two used frames for the RAAF, in their facilities in Europe. https://adbr.com.au/raaf-considering-mo ... onversion/

Thanks.
Your article says Airbus is willing to study a proposal to get two (!) old A330-200 converted in Australia.
Hard to imagine to train new labour for two planes. Even the video I posted earlier didn't look like economy of scale to me at all.


They don't train staff to do it. They use existing MRO facilities and staff that do the work to instructions. Its pretty much the same as how some P2F conversions can be done at several facilities at once, sometimes independently and even in competition with each other.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:43 pm

VSMUT wrote:
AFAIK, the A310MRTTs were conversions of passenger aircraft as well, as were a large number of 707s.


afaik all MRTT are delivered green and then outfitted, so the SOP probably already exists aside of Details.

best regards
Thomas
 
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ssteve
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:44 pm

All the 77L's of the world would be great tanker stock. Lot of engineering would have to go into it, but if IAI can one-off a 767 MRTT...
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:47 pm

VSMUT wrote:
They don't train staff to do it. They use existing MRO facilities and staff that do the work to instructions. Its pretty much the same as how some P2F conversions can be done at several facilities at once, sometimes independently and even in competition with each other.

I struggle to visualize this. But I don't doubt what you say.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:51 pm

The reason behind buying new aircraft vs. used aircrafts for tankers to do with configuration and quantity.

To mod an air craft, the engineers have to know exactly what is on the aircraft, including any subsequent fixes that have been done to the aircraft after initial delivery.

This is because regulation stipulate that you must document everything that you take off the aircraft and everything you put on. (At least with the important stuff that pacts flight worthiness.)

When you just have a few aircraft to mod, it doesn't take a lot of engineering hours to track down the differences and design the mod around them.

If you have to modify a whole bunch, then it is very difficult to document all the differences and if necessary design unique mod for each difference.

With new airframes, the configuration is more stable, so you can use the same engineering for more aircraft thus reduce the amount of engineering you need.

The less variation you have up front will reduce the amount of engineering you will have later on. Especially if you are planning multiple upgrades over the life time of the aircrafts. Even if you are not changing much, each change require documentation and the paperwork starts to stack up.

Finally, with newer aircrafts, the design is done digitally. It is less time consuming to mod a digital aircraft. If you have to modify an aircraft that was built by drawing, even if the drawings were done on CAD, it would be also time consuming. Each time the OEM upgrade their CAD system, it add one more layer of complexity in the design and configuration management for your mod.


bt
Last edited by bikerthai on Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:56 pm

ssteve wrote:
All the 77L's of the world would be great tanker stock.


The unique advantage of the A330 are those enormous tanks inherited from the A340, filled up they use over 90% of MTOW, a 77L runs out of fuel volume at about 80% MTOW, so unless you install a lot of Belly tanks a 77E is just as good a basis for a tanker..

best regards
Thomas
 
VSMUT
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:58 pm

Sokes wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
They don't train staff to do it. They use existing MRO facilities and staff that do the work to instructions. Its pretty much the same as how some P2F conversions can be done at several facilities at once, sometimes independently and even in competition with each other.

I struggle to visualize this. But I don't doubt what you say.


When you develop a modification for an aircraft, you put all the changes, cuts, additions, tools required, wiring to be changed etc. into paperwork that describes what and how to do it. That is the difficult and expensive part. Any maintenance facility with suitable facilities can in theory buy the rights for that paperwork to do the modification by themselves.

An example I am familiar with is the large cargo door for the ATR. The modification was developed by Alenia in 2001/2002 I believed, but the rights have since been sold on. The current owner has currently licensed the modification to as far as I am aware at least 4 or 5 different MRO's independent of each other and Alenia. They are all turning out aircraft that are identical.
 
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ssteve
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:01 pm

Thomas -- You're right, I'm surprised the number is so low for the 77L. There are maybe a few with factory-installed aux tanks in the hold... but all sorts of practicality issues would kill it as a project unless you found some customer wanting several basically ginormous tankers.
 
bennett123
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:09 pm

Another point with use of pre owned aircraft is the condition/documentation of the airframe.

If the aircraft are from a major airline, they should be to a common standard. If airline x has a good maintenance record, so much the better.
 
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747classic
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:09 pm

KLM/TD, under supervision of MDC, converted two Martinair DC10-30CF aircraft to KDC10 tanker aircraft, during the mid nineties (1994-1995)
Besides a lot of military guards, a fully locked hangar and special badges to enter (top secret !), all actual conversion work was performed by KL technicians.
Kits were supplied by MDC.
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:42 pm

VSMUT wrote:
When you develop a modification for an aircraft, you put all the changes, cuts, additions, tools required, wiring to be changed etc. into paperwork that describes what and how to do it. That is the difficult and expensive part. Any maintenance facility with suitable facilities can in theory buy the rights for that paperwork to do the modification by themselves.
...

I have never seen work on a plane.
I once changed the windshield of a car with my brother. Instructions are available on YouTube, tools on Amazon. I suspect somebody with routine would have taken a third of the time.
On the video I posted one can see how Airbus fabricates parts. Would the Australian maintenance facility at least buy these parts from Airbus?

Routine also helps to prevent mistakes.
But then one can read how three or four planes leave one passenger to freighter conversion line per year. Work every three months isn't routine. So I guess you are right.
If there are three lines, will workers be sent from one line to another to have more routine?
Last edited by Sokes on Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:55 pm

bikerthai wrote:
To mod an air craft, the engineers have to know exactly what is on the aircraft, including any subsequent fixes that have been done to the aircraft after initial delivery.
bt

It's obviously good to know if a tail strike got fixed. But assuming the conversion to a tanker is done when a D-check is due, is this so important?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:02 pm

In the US, the answer is Congress and the Generals. Congress wants the chance to hand out fat contracts to their constituents and the generals like to look at a new fleet of planes where their post-retirement jobs might be.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:12 pm

Sokes wrote:
On the video I posted one can see how Airbus fabricates parts. Would the Australian maintenance facility at least buy these parts from Airbus?

Depends on what's cheaper and if they already have the tools (and IP). If the part is just a milled piece of aluminum, all mechanics should have the skills and all workshops the tools that are required. If it's something that needs special molds or a large autoclave or any other unusual processes and tools, it's probably cheaper to buy the piece from Airbus rather than to buy the equipment and train the mechanic how to use it.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:19 pm

Sokes wrote:
It's obviously good to know if a tail strike got fixed. But assuming the conversion to a tanker is done when a D-check is due, is this so important?


What you are referring to is the actual physical removing and installing of hardware which is more or less the same for a new vs. used aircraft. The one exception would be if the new aircraft already have the some component built in then you would not have to remove and replace components.

There is a ballance between how much money you are willing to spend up front in terms of Engineering to reduce the amount of work by the mechanics during the actual mod. For a few frames, it's more cost effective to let the mechanic and mod engineers to deal with the variation as they go along.

For dozens or hundreds of aircrafts, it is not sustainable unless you have a massive mod staff.

Understand that any issue you discover at the time of the mod will compound the schedule much more than if you have to deal with it during the design phase.

Note that the current UK purchase of the E-7 aircrafts involved both used and new built airframes. With only a few frames ordered, it would have been feasible to go all used airframes. However I suspect that they could only get a hold of a couple of used 737 with low flight hours and similar enough configuration, so they were forced to buy several new built frames as well. This is possible because Boeing is still building NG frames for the P-8A. And in the grand scheme of thing, the cost of the Radar mod makes the differences between a new frame vs an old frame not as pronounced. For a tanker, the mod would be less extensive, so the airframe cost difference does influence the decision.


bt
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:46 pm

bikerthai wrote:
There is a ballance between how much money you are willing to spend up front in terms of Engineering to reduce the amount of work by the mechanics during the actual mod. For a few frames, it's more cost effective to let the mechanic and mod engineers to deal with the variation as they go along.

Can you give an example?

For dozens or hundreds of aircrafts, it is not sustainable unless you have a massive mod staff.

Understand that any issue you discover at the time of the mod will compound the schedule much more than if you have to deal with it during the design phase.
...
bt

Shouldn't same be true if passenger planes are converted to freighters? Even if a new freighter is available, old passenger planes are converted.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:59 pm

Sokes wrote:
Would the Australian maintenance facility at least buy these parts from Airbus?


Depends. The boom itself, avionics and complex equipment would be sourced from Airbus or directly from the original manufacturer. Basic sheet metal work can be done pretty much everywhere. In the case of cargo planes, the cargo door is usually delivered as one complete and fully equipped and wired item that just needs to be installed.


Sokes wrote:
If there are three lines, will workers be sent from one line to another to have more routine?


If it's within the same company, like EFW and ST Aerospace' A330 and A321 conversions, a couple of supervisors usually do.
 
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N328KF
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:30 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
ssteve wrote:
All the 77L's of the world would be great tanker stock.


The unique advantage of the A330 are those enormous tanks inherited from the A340, filled up they use over 90% of MTOW, a 77L runs out of fuel volume at about 80% MTOW, so unless you install a lot of Belly tanks a 77E is just as good a basis for a tanker.


Well, also, the unused outboard pylons are where the refuelling pods are placed.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:51 pm

Sokes wrote:
Can you give an example?


Lets consider this:

VSMUT wrote:
Depends. The boom itself, avionics and complex equipment


For a commercial conversion, you'll have to cut the 46 section, take out the lower skin, reinforce what's left and attach the boom interface. Now when you take old and out in the the new, you have to be careful not to damage the holes in the splice frame as you install the oversize fasteners. The act of installing the oversize fastener reduces your fastener edge margins. So your fatigue life of the hole will be less. It may or may not be an issue.

For a new built tanker, the boom interface is already built in with the appropriate 2D edge margin for the holes, so you have the full fatigue life.

For passenger to freighter conversion, you may have to reinforce the floor. If you are only carrying Amazon boxes, then it may not be required, but if you are carrying heavy oversized the then you either spend money to replace or reinforce all the floor beams or have it there with the original built.

bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:55 pm

Sokes wrote:
Shouldn't same be true if passenger planes are converted to freighters? Even if a new freighter is available, old passenger planes are converted.


Going from a passenger to a freighter is one level of complexity. Going from a freighter to a tanker is another level of complexity.

EXAMPLES:

All the wiring needs to be hardened to Military Spec. This was one of the thing that Boeing forgot to do with the KC-46 tanker and it cost them dearly.

All doors and windows need EMI shielding. . . Etc.

bt
 
texl1649
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:02 pm

If the USAF in particular lessened the need for ‘perfection’ as it might be defined in terms of hardening, validation to dozens of types of refueling, light conditions etc., then maybe this would make sense. The 767 tankers the JASDF operates for instance weren’t billion dollar plus write-offs for the producer. But, in practical terms, by the time the KC-46 is finally ‘refined’ no conversion versions, will qualify for export sales.

Yes, I think all sides would agree the largest tanker user in the world, uses an absurd process to get new tankers. And that’s not a defense of Boeing. IAI, the KC30, and many other designs could use refurbished/converted frames if customers wanted to pay for them.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:26 pm

The Airbus 330 Mrtt is not only a tanker but also a cargo and troop transport.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:42 pm

texl1649 wrote:
The 767 tankers the JASDF operates for instance weren’t billion dollar plus write-offs for the producer.


The JASDF and Italian 767 tanker would have been the same configuration as the original 200 tanker offered to the USAF eons ago.

They all would have been mod aircraft instead of in-line production. We will not debate that again.

The KC-46 is also a transport, freighter and medivac ready as needed. Because it is hardened, it can also become a node for the future distributed communication hub.

bt
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:22 am

@bikerthai:
True, converted freighter remain a compromise. So for heavy duty new built are used.
It's understood that an air force doesn't like too many compromises. It's not just carrying boxes.
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:32 am

VSMUT wrote:
Basic sheet metal work can be done pretty much everywhere.

Once the laser cutting machine is programmed to do it. I guess the instructions for the laser cutting machine are included when one buys the right to conversion.

I suppose my mistake is to overestimate the labour cost of final assembly or conversion. Looks to me the costly part are the parts.
No wonder lightsaber always focuses on economy of scale.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:20 am

Sokes wrote:
Once the laser cutting machine is programmed to do it. I guess the instructions for the laser cutting machine are included when one buys the right to conversion.


My understanding is that laser cutting is not good for aluminum. The heat affected zone around the cut is too large because aluminum conducts heat so well. This heat affected zone has reduced strength and is prone to fatigue crack initiation. You'll have to come in and clean up this zone using some other method, which negate the benefit.

For titanium, laser cutting works great.

bt
 
Sokes
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:39 am

bikerthai wrote:
My understanding is that laser cutting is not good for aluminum. The heat affected zone around the cut is too large because aluminum conducts heat so well. This heat affected zone has reduced strength and is prone to fatigue crack initiation. You'll have to come in and clean up this zone using some other method, which negate the benefit.

For titanium, laser cutting works great.

bt

Learnt something, thanks.
I have seen milling machines for small but thick workpieces. I have also seen laser cutting machines for sheets. But I have never seen a milling machine that works the area of a sheet.
I found a video on YouTube for those who are interested:
https://youtu.be/-mQD_e4DfDA
 
VSMUT
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:59 am

Sokes wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Basic sheet metal work can be done pretty much everywhere.

Once the laser cutting machine is programmed to do it. I guess the instructions for the laser cutting machine are included when one buys the right to conversion.

I suppose my mistake is to overestimate the labour cost of final assembly or conversion. Looks to me the costly part are the parts.
No wonder lightsaber always focuses on economy of scale.


Laser cutting? You use good old-fashioned power tools. There is another topic running about the A320 winglets, where someone posted a link to a video of Airbus cutting the wing tip off with a circular saw.

In this IAI video you can see them cutting the fuselage with what looks like a commercially available reciprocating-saw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUKt9Q8hHAw
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:16 pm

Yeah, now if you can have a mobile CNC/milling machine robot, you can speed things up and maintain that surgical precision.

bt
 
WIederling
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:34 pm

texl1649 wrote:
.... The 767 tankers the JASDF operates for instance weren’t billion dollar plus write-offs for the producer.


The Italian and Japanese tanker samples each were endlessly delayed. Needed major testing and rework due to flutter issues.

No idea if they were "billion $" writeoffs ..
But they certainly trashed the profit expectations of the manufacturer soundly.
Seems to get continuation with the KC46 product.
 
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smithbs
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:51 pm

For tanker feed stock, A330 is as big as we've seen the market go. The A330 has capacious fuel, which is great, but it is still just one refueling point in the sky, and so there is an issue in that you could get a long conga line forming up behind the A330. A 777 would suffer similarly - the gas station has enough to go around, but only one customer at a time. And so fleet size does enter into it, so much as budget allows. I would suggest that A330 is getting spendy for a tanker, no matter what its other roles are, with a material impact on one's ability to build up a large fleet and increase the number of refueling slots in the sky.

KC-135, 707 and 767 seem to be the sweet spot. A good amount of gas, and the acquisition and operating costs seem to be acceptable. An argument can be made for a large number of smaller tankers like A320 or 737, but the amount of transfer fuel they could bring aloft is not enough and their mission profiles would be too squeezed. Too bad, since one could buy a large fleet of 737 tankers on a mediocre budget and have lots of refueling points in the sky.

In general, this is a hard market to analyze because you have one enormous player that bends everything to its own peculiar ways and generally behaves like it lives on its own planet (I used to be this service and I can say yes, it does live on its own planet). Otherwise, the market has a few small-time players and is small.
 
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smithbs
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:11 pm

Question: does anybody know how many tanker conversions IAI has done?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:06 pm

smithbs wrote:
Question: does anybody know how many tanker conversions IAI has done?

One delivery to Colombia in 2010 and three outstanding "orders" from Brazil. https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... y-aircraft
The Brazilian order was supposedly placed in 2013 but no deliveries ever happened to my knowledge.
 
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smithbs
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:47 pm

mxaxai wrote:
smithbs wrote:
Question: does anybody know how many tanker conversions IAI has done?

One delivery to Colombia in 2010 and three outstanding "orders" from Brazil. https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... y-aircraft
The Brazilian order was supposedly placed in 2013 but no deliveries ever happened to my knowledge.


Thanks. That's less than I had hoped.
 
WIederling
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:40 pm

smithbs wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
smithbs wrote:
Question: does anybody know how many tanker conversions IAI has done?

One delivery to Colombia in 2010 and three outstanding "orders" from Brazil. https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... y-aircraft
The Brazilian order was supposedly placed in 2013 but no deliveries ever happened to my knowledge.


Thanks. That's less than I had hoped.


There only is one viable offer around. A330 MRTT.
Some me too stuff and
one large captured customer buying the home team offer ( and probably rueing it already).
 
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smithbs
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:27 pm

WIederling wrote:
smithbs wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
One delivery to Colombia in 2010 and three outstanding "orders" from Brazil. https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... y-aircraft
The Brazilian order was supposedly placed in 2013 but no deliveries ever happened to my knowledge.


Thanks. That's less than I had hoped.


There only is one viable offer around. A330 MRTT.
Some me too stuff and
one large captured customer buying the home team offer ( and probably rueing it already).


KC-46 is entering the export market. Japan has their order in, Israel has FMS approval, and others are expressing interest. KC-46 already has a volume advantage, despite Boeing's best attempts to fumble it. If it appears that the conversion market has tanked, then it's down to new-builds from A & B.
 
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747classic
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:31 pm

The IAI 767 tanker conversion program was blocked after the KC-46A was offered to the IAF.
See : https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... ompetition
 
WIederling
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Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:24 am

747classic wrote:
The IAI 767 tanker conversion program was blocked after the KC-46A was offered to the IAF.
See : https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... ompetition


self regulating unregulated markets at work :-))
 
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bikerthai
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Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:58 am

WIederling wrote:
self regulating unregulated markets at work )


Free market with a touch of self interest and politics. Since it is US Tax payer money that would ultimate pay for these planes, they have the rights to decide who's building them.

bt
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14691
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:49 pm

bikerthai wrote:
WIederling wrote:
self regulating unregulated markets at work )


Free market with a touch of self interest and politics. Since it is US Tax payer money that would ultimate pay for these planes, they have the rights to decide who's building them.

bt


more US taxpayers money being used to remove a, private company, Boeing competitor for newly build KC46 from the market....

best regards
Thomas
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 4332
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:27 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
more US taxpayers money being used to remove a, private company, Boeing competitor for newly build KC46 from the market....


Wrong narrative. Boeing is partner with the Israelis mod shop. They do not want to put it out of business as they themselves do not want to do mod work. They just do not want the business to directly compete with their product line. If a country is only looking for a mod and not new built, Boeing has no problem with them doing the mod.

And yes Boeing employees are tax payers as well.

bt
 
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kc135topboom
Posts: 11227
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:44 am

Mortyman wrote:
The Airbus 330 Mrtt is not only a tanker but also a cargo and troop transport.



As is the KC-135, KC-10, KC-46, KE-3, KC-137, B-707TT, and KC-767.
 
Ozair
Posts: 5582
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Why are aerial refueling aircraft build new?

Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:18 am

kc135topboom wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
The Airbus 330 Mrtt is not only a tanker but also a cargo and troop transport.



As is the KC-135, KC-10, KC-46, KE-3, KC-137, B-707TT, and KC-767.

KC-130 as well.

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