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aschachter
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Confirmed: Israeli Air Force Order

Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:50 am

Please see article from Jerusalem Post discussing likely Israeli Air Force Order .

On the Shopping List

4 * KC46
CH53K or Chinook Heavy Lift Helicopters
Another F35 Squadron
Some F15EX Aircraft

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/cabin ... eal-658176
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:36 am

Israel is geographically very small and not an island chain. Not obvious why a heavy lift helicopter would be more useful than other things Israel might buy. Would a Chinook really be more useful than an extra Apache or F-35?

Also, Israel is buying F-35As. But F-35B's perform better after the runway has been blown up. Israel must be very certain that the runways will not be blown up. Remember, Israeli wars last about a week. Each time a runway is down for 8 hours, that's 5% of an Israeli war.
 
GDB
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:03 am

Brief history of their CH-53, which should inform the rationale for their replacement;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_ ... ion#Israel
 
Reddevil556
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:12 am

Chinooks are perfectly sized to move an infantry platoon. Not many other rotary aircraft provide that capability. Given how combat operations don't typically dip below the platoon size (for major movements and conventional forces), 3-4 Chinooks can deploy an entire infantry company a decent range. Something the size of a UH60 will require twice the number of aircraft at least. Also when they talk about capacity as far as infantry troops those numbers are always inflated. An infantryman at the time of the development of both the CH47 and the UH60 did not have nearly as much equipment as the current infantryman carries.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:59 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Would a Chinook really be more useful than an extra Apache or F-35?


You have to look at Israel's potential adversary to see if they have enough Apache or F-35's.

The only neighbor with significant armour force would be Egypt. The AH-64 the Israelis have should be more than suficient to handle that force if it decide to move across the Sinai.

They are getting all the F-35s they want. Otherwise they would not look at the F-15EX.


bt
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:11 pm

bikerthai wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Would a Chinook really be more useful than an extra Apache or F-35?


You have to look at Israel's potential adversary to see if they have enough Apache or F-35's.

The only neighbor with significant armour force would be Egypt. The AH-64 the Israelis have should be more than suficient to handle that force if it decide to move across the Sinai.

They are getting all the F-35s they want. Otherwise they would not look at the F-15EX.


bt

I wouldn't shortchange the armor of Syria though. Yes their fleet took a heck of a beating in the SCW, but Russia backfilled this with a repair depot, as well as constant shiploads of upgraded T-62, T-72 and T-90 tanks so the remaining armor is higher quality than before as well.

As for Kitplane's question of why -A rather than -B model F-35s? It's simply not in their combat doctrine. Otherwise they would have had a historically large Harrier fleet too.
 
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smithbs
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:30 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Israel is geographically very small and not an island chain. Not obvious why a heavy lift helicopter would be more useful than other things Israel might buy. Would a Chinook really be more useful than an extra Apache or F-35?


The Israelis like their heavy helicopters. Given four machines on one mission, you can either use UH-1's and move one platoon, or CH-47s and move a whole company. A Stallion or Chinook can also move artillery, trucks, pallets (in the cabin no less), Soviet radar booty, and so on - things that a UH-60, NH90 or Super Puma simply can't do. Financially it's going to be more efficient as well.

Perhaps the biggest problem is the risk of a helo going down - the losses are all the greater.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:34 pm

Spacepope wrote:
I wouldn't shortchange the armor of Syria though. Yes their fleet took a heck of a beating in the SCW, but Russia backfilled this with a repair depot, as well as constant shiploads of upgraded T-62, T-72 and T-90 tanks so the remaining armor is higher quality than before as well.


You can replace hardware, but you can not replace manpower or doctrine. With their current civil war, the Syrian are using their tanks and fortified bunkers or mobile gun platform against lightly armed insurgents.

Until their civil war get resolved, Syria will not be able to threaten Israel with an effective armor formation, no matter how many tanks they can mass. It will take a decade even if the civil war stops tomorrow.

bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:40 pm

Spacepope wrote:
It's simply not in their combat doctrine.


Yeah, invest in the Iron Dome and enough ground equipment to quickly repair runways.

Who of their adversary has the capability to crater a runway? Iran is the only one I can think of, and are those valuable ballistic missiles realistically targeting the runway? Or rather the population center for mass cassualty?

bt
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:42 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
It's simply not in their combat doctrine.


Who of their adversary has the capability to crater a runway?

bt


I imagine that Israel has the plan to crater the enemies runways. They did in 1967, and I'm sure that's taught in their history books.

Is it not possible that Egypt or Saudi Arabia could get even a few planes within 60 miles of Israeli airports for just a short while, with heavy losses? Launching from Jordan would cover all of Israel within 60 miles! Or that either nations buys cruise missiles.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:44 pm

smithbs wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Israel is geographically very small and not an island chain. Not obvious why a heavy lift helicopter would be more useful than other things Israel might buy. Would a Chinook really be more useful than an extra Apache or F-35?


The Israelis like their heavy helicopters. Given four machines on one mission, you can either use UH-1's and move one platoon, or CH-47s and move a whole company. A Stallion or Chinook can also move artillery, trucks, pallets (in the cabin no less), Soviet radar booty, and so on - things that a UH-60, NH90 or Super Puma simply can't do. Financially it's going to be more efficient as well.

Perhaps the biggest problem is the risk of a helo going down - the losses are all the greater.



Does Israel have a history of airborne assault? I'm not aware of Israeli operations that actually used such helicopters, but am interested in being educated.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:47 pm

bikerthai wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Would a Chinook really be more useful than an extra Apache or F-35?



They are getting all the F-35s they want. Otherwise they would not look at the F-15EX.



That's not obvious.

Imagine a mixed force of Apache's and F-35s. That could very easily be Israel's future. What would an F-15EX bring to that? All I can imagine is loitering over a battlefield at medium altitude with a beast-mode of small missiles for ground attack, and that seems a fine way to get shot down in 2030.

The F-15EX costs at least as much as an F-35, and brings the cost of operating two different types.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1959
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:04 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
smithbs wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Israel is geographically very small and not an island chain. Not obvious why a heavy lift helicopter would be more useful than other things Israel might buy. Would a Chinook really be more useful than an extra Apache or F-35?


The Israelis like their heavy helicopters. Given four machines on one mission, you can either use UH-1's and move one platoon, or CH-47s and move a whole company. A Stallion or Chinook can also move artillery, trucks, pallets (in the cabin no less), Soviet radar booty, and so on - things that a UH-60, NH90 or Super Puma simply can't do. Financially it's going to be more efficient as well.

Perhaps the biggest problem is the risk of a helo going down - the losses are all the greater.



Does Israel have a history of airborne assault? I'm not aware of Israeli operations that actually used such helicopters, but am interested in being educated.


They do train/perform commando raids and combat search and rescue, primarily, but a lot of 'secret' missions too, I believe.

https://breakingdefense.com/2020/06/isr ... pper-pick/

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/israe ... ons-591789

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... fare-suite

I think their CH-53's are substantially more worn out both due to hours and the environment (dust/sand) than the Germans (but much better maintained).
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:46 am

kitplane01 wrote:
Does Israel have a history of airborne assault?


There was that famous raid on Entebbe to free airline hostages. They made a movie about that.

kitplane01 wrote:
Imagine a mixed force of Apache's and F-35s. That could very easily be Israel's future. What would an F-15EX bring to that?


The ability to bring deep penetrating ordinance to attack Iran's underground nuclear bunker and a platform for future hypersonic weapons.

bt
 
Ozair
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:47 am

kitplane01 wrote:

I imagine that Israel has the plan to crater the enemies runways. They did in 1967, and I'm sure that's taught in their history books.

Is it not possible that Egypt or Saudi Arabia could get even a few planes within 60 miles of Israeli airports for just a short while, with heavy losses? Launching from Jordan would cover all of Israel within 60 miles! Or that either nations buys cruise missiles.

It is a lot harder to render a runway unusable for an extended period of time than most people think. The better option is to hit more critical infrastructure on the airfield that is also significantly harder to regenerate than a runway.

kitplane01 wrote:

The F-15EX costs at least as much as an F-35, and brings the cost of operating two different types.

The point is somewhat moot as Israel already operates multiple versions of the F-15 and will continue to do so for some time to come.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:23 am

bikerthai wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Does Israel have a history of airborne assault?


There was that famous raid on Entebbe to free airline hostages. They made a movie about that.

kitplane01 wrote:
Imagine a mixed force of Apache's and F-35s. That could very easily be Israel's future. What would an F-15EX bring to that?


The ability to bring deep penetrating ordinance to attack Iran's underground nuclear bunker and a platform for future hypersonic weapons.

bt


I would think an F-35 would be much better at deep penetrating strike than a non-stealthy F-15.
 
Ozair
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:39 am

kitplane01 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Does Israel have a history of airborne assault?


There was that famous raid on Entebbe to free airline hostages. They made a movie about that.

kitplane01 wrote:
Imagine a mixed force of Apache's and F-35s. That could very easily be Israel's future. What would an F-15EX bring to that?


The ability to bring deep penetrating ordinance to attack Iran's underground nuclear bunker and a platform for future hypersonic weapons.

bt


I would think an F-35 would be much better at deep penetrating strike than a non-stealthy F-15.

Not if the requirement is to drop a 5k GBU-28. At the moment it is not certified for carriage on an F-35 even though the F-35 does have two stations, 3 and 9, rated for 5k.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:11 am

Or if you want to launch a Rampage missile instead of a bomb.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:36 am

Ozair wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:

There was that famous raid on Entebbe to free airline hostages. They made a movie about that.



The ability to bring deep penetrating ordinance to attack Iran's underground nuclear bunker and a platform for future hypersonic weapons.

bt


I would think an F-35 would be much better at deep penetrating strike than a non-stealthy F-15.

Not if the requirement is to drop a 5k GBU-28. At the moment it is not certified for carriage on an F-35 even though the F-35 does have two stations, 3 and 9, rated for 5k.


I wonder if the Diehl HOPE could fit internally, both space and weight wise.

best regards
Thomas
 
johns624
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:40 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Does Israel have a history of airborne assault?


There was that famous raid on Entebbe to free airline hostages. They made a movie about that.

kitplane01 wrote:
Imagine a mixed force of Apache's and F-35s. That could very easily be Israel's future. What would an F-15EX bring to that?


The ability to bring deep penetrating ordinance to attack Iran's underground nuclear bunker and a platform for future hypersonic weapons.

bt


I would think an F-35 would be much better at deep penetrating strike than a non-stealthy F-15.
He's talking about a deep penetrating weapon, not a deep penetrating strike.
 
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smithbs
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:23 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Does Israel have a history of airborne assault? I'm not aware of Israeli operations that actually used such helicopters, but am interested in being educated.


Yes, quite a bit actually. A lot of major landings when fighting the Egyptians, taking the passes in Sinai, etc. They used helicopters to re-take Mt Hermon in 1973. Entebbe was mentioned (the 1976 movie with Charles Bronson is a good one - some nice C-130 action ;) ). There was the famous Soviet radar heist. A lot of their recent operations and strikes in Syria have hinted that they get commandos up that way, very quietly.

Maybe someone can elaborate on what style the Israelis use. The American concept of air cavalry in Vietnam was to drop directly on the enemy, such that troopers came out of the UH-1's shooting (or being shot). And over 5,000 helicopters were lost. :shock: A more conservative strategy, like the South Africans in Angola in the 1980s, was to land some distance away (usually out of ear range), form up, and make a more deliberate and planned assault. I guess if you are taking a mountain pass well behind enemy lines like in Sinai, there's not much choice but to land right on the objective. With Mt Hermon, I thought they landed some distance away and made the final bound on foot. Besides, with mountain fighting, it's best to let the helicopter let you off ABOVE your objective, and not below.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:14 pm

In Vietnam, landing in a hot LZ is a function of the jungle terrain, an enemy who seemed to be everywhere and bad intelligence.

I don't think anyone would want to land in a hot LZ.

bt
 
texl1649
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:43 pm

Since without pneumatics helicopters are flying death traps, no pilot wants to land in a hot LZ, but military helo pilots are a remarkable breed.
 
Newark727
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:49 pm

I hope they don't take the KC-46s too fast... I still need to see one of their 707s at Red Flag
 
Ozair
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:19 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
I wonder if the Diehl HOPE could fit internally, both space and weight wise.
best regards
Thomas

Unfortunately not. At 5m it is going to be too long and the internal A2G station is only rated for 2.5k so the HOPE will be too heavy for the station. They could probably increase the weight capability of the internal station but given the length issues not much point.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:04 pm

Ozair wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:

There was that famous raid on Entebbe to free airline hostages. They made a movie about that.



The ability to bring deep penetrating ordinance to attack Iran's underground nuclear bunker and a platform for future hypersonic weapons.

bt


I would think an F-35 would be much better at deep penetrating strike than a non-stealthy F-15.

Not if the requirement is to drop a 5k GBU-28. At the moment it is not certified for carriage on an F-35 even though the F-35 does have two stations, 3 and 9, rated for 5k.


I don't know that an F-15 could do the job either. I think it would get shot down.

It would have to cross quite a lot of defended airspace. Neither of us knows the details to the Iraqi and Iranian air defense systems, but if an F-15 can get there the Iranian military needs to do a better job. The distance is more than 1,800 miles round trip. I don't think an F-15 can do that at low level. The in-Iran distance is 600 miles round trip, and refueling over Iraq seems brave.
 
Ozair
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:23 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
I don't know that an F-15 could do the job either. I think it would get shot down.
It would have to cross quite a lot of defended airspace. Neither of us knows the details to the Iraqi and Iranian air defense systems, but if an F-15 can get there the Iranian military needs to do a better job. The distance is more than 1,800 miles round trip. I don't think an F-15 can do that at low level. The in-Iran distance is 600 miles round trip, and refueling over Iraq seems brave.

Likely the F-15 wouldn’t be flying alone and couple of things sit in Israel’s favour. First they have a history of competing these types of operations, look at Operation Opera as an example. Second they have experience operating around Syrian and Russian Air Defence systems so have a very good knowledge of how they operate and likely how to defeat them. The last shoot down of an Israeli F-16 required the Syrians to reportedly fire upwards of 25 SAMs before they finally succeeded (likely a mix of SA-3,5,6,17).

Yes the distances are great but the Israeli Air Force are a skilled bunch of people and I have no doubt would be able to accomplish something like this if they really wanted to. It may not result in zero casualties to their aircraft but in these instances I expect they would see mission success as a higher priority than loss of aircraft.
 
Naincompetent
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:27 pm

Order confirmed for 25 F35s and 4 KC46s
No decision yet on assault helis.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pr ... -1.9544478
 
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747classic
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Re: Possible Israeli Air Force Order

Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:50 pm

Israel’s Ministry of Defense on Feb. 25 selected the Sikorsky CH-53K heavy-lift helicopter over the Boeing CH-47F Block II to replace a fleet of 23 CH-53s.
See : https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... a1d7fc4dc0

Also : https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... helicopter

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