Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
jalarner
Topic Author
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:07 am

Canada - Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project

Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:50 pm

See the government of Canada information here: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/strategic-tanker-transport-capability-project.html

I just received a notice on a bidding site my company uses (not in the aviation field) and this was one of the things that popped up.

A Draft Invitation to Quality opened on 17-Dec-20 and closed 29-Jan-21. https://buyandsell.gc.ca/procurement-data/tender-notice/PW-20-00938667

I haven't read to much, but I assume timelines will be sooner than later for the project.

Jamie
 
johns624
Posts: 4239
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Canada - Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project

Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:19 pm

First, they have to buy some new fighters so that they have something to refuel...
 
texl1649
Posts: 1956
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Canada - Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project

Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:52 pm

They might be pragmatic about this, using the opportunity/need to support AC and repurposing/converting some aircraft as has been done before 30 years ago to serve as tankers/transports/VIP.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ilian-jets

Now, the possibility, if only for entertainment, of a rapid/affordable/effective 787 or 777 tanker conversion for Canada must make more than just me laugh at the (very unlikely) prospect. Not sure what AC would prefer to 'spare' long term, but I'd guess the A330 would make the most sense, to the government. Still, a 787 MRTT type cert being achieved by possibly a Canadian contractor prior to full KC-46 mission capability again makes me chuckle softly.

Ottawa has been contemplating replacing the five Airbus aircraft, designated in their military variant as CC-150 Polaris, for several years. Out of the quintet, one aircraft is currently used as a VIP transport, one as a strategic transport aircraft, and three as aerial refuelling tankers. They were inducted into service by the then Canadian Forces between 1987 and 1988.

Sources told CBC that the replacement aircraft could be procured from Air Canada (AC, Montréal Trudeau), as a form of state aid. However, discussions are still at an early stage.

"When the government decided a few weeks ago to help the airline sector, there was a situation where it became possible to address two issues at once, namely helping the airline industry at the same time as replacing an ageing and polluting fleet," a source said.

According to the ch-aviation fleets advanced module, Air Canada's widebody fleet entails fifteen A330-300s, six B777-200(LR)s, nineteen B777-300(ER)s, eight B787-8s, and twenty-nine B787-9s while its Air Canada rouge (RV, Toronto Pearson) subsidiary operates twenty-one B767-300(ER)s.

Air Transat (TS, Montréal Trudeau) - which is planning to merge with Air Canada - operates twelve A330-200s and one -300. The only other operator of passenger widebodies in the country is WestJet (WS, Calgary), which has five B787-9s.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 2072
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Canada - Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project

Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:42 pm

Use a C-130 as a tanker. Canada already operates the C-130. It's cheap. It already exists.
 
Ozair
Posts: 5582
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Canada - Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project

Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:08 pm

texl1649 wrote:
They might be pragmatic about this, using the opportunity/need to support AC and repurposing/converting some aircraft as has been done before 30 years ago to serve as tankers/transports/VIP.

Agree, I expect used A330s are converted to MRTT from Air Canada or subsidiary holdings. It won’t save a lot of money in the long run but the airframes likely have more than sufficient hours on them to operate as tankers for the next 30 years and they should be able to get a set of aircraft all in common configuration.

texl1649 wrote:
Now, the possibility, if only for entertainment, of a rapid/affordable/effective 787 or 777 tanker conversion for Canada must make more than just me laugh at the (very unlikely) prospect. Not sure what AC would prefer to 'spare' long term, but I'd guess the A330 would make the most sense, to the government. Still, a 787 MRTT type cert being achieved by possibly a Canadian contractor prior to full KC-46 mission capability again makes me chuckle softly.

Indeed…

kitplane01 wrote:
Use a C-130 as a tanker. Canada already operates the C-130. It's cheap. It already exists.

Not viable if the F-35A is chosen though as the C-130 does not, currently and not likely to, have a boom. Hence unless they want to try to exclude the F-35A that way, certainly possible given Trudeau’s previous statements, they are seeking a widebody airliner with both boom and hose and drogue noting the RCAF C-17 is boom capable.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 2072
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Canada - Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project

Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:32 pm

Ozair wrote:
[

kitplane01 wrote:
Use a C-130 as a tanker. Canada already operates the C-130. It's cheap. It already exists.

Not viable if the F-35A is chosen though as the C-130 does not, currently and not likely to, have a boom. Hence unless they want to try to exclude the F-35A that way, certainly possible given Trudeau’s previous statements, they are seeking a widebody airliner with both boom and hose and drogue noting the RCAF C-17 is boom capable.

[/quote]

I revise my plan.

Buy some hose/reals for the C-130s. Upgrade to a boom based tanker if and when Canada actually orders from F-35s.
(I feel like Canada's track record of actually taking delivery of new fighters is not strong.)
 
Ozair
Posts: 5582
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Canada - Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project

Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:45 pm

kitplane01 wrote:

I revise my plan.

Buy some hose/reals for the C-130s. Upgrade to a boom based tanker if and when Canada actually orders from F-35s.
(I feel like Canada's track record of actually taking delivery of new fighters is not strong.)

Ha… Canada could very well delay their competition again and if that happens then some KC-130Js would likely be a reasonable investment, especially if the classic Hornet fleet continues on another 15 years.

As for upgrade to a boom tanker I think what Texl1649 was inferring was that the Canadian Govt in doing this now is throwing AC a bone and buying some of their excess used aircraft for conversion. The prices on the open market would be reasonable for used aircraft although AC would likely charge the Govt too much. Doing that ten years from now may be an issue given the types available, the age of the airframes and whether tanker conversion is still happening for those airframes.

If you do it now you have a tanker that can fulfil both roles, boom and hose and drogue, so no loss if the boom isn’t used for a few years. It also allows the RCAF tankers to refuel USAF aircraft flying NORAD missions, something the USAF does for RCAF CF-18s regularly.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3854
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Canada - Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project

Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:29 am

We've briefly discussed this on another thread, starting from post 23 onwards:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1435675#p22559637

Basically, the ITQ document spells out what the government is looking for; they are looking for a tanker that's already in service, can refuel all of NORAD's and NATO's aircraft, and can carry troops and cargo:

https://buyandsell.gc.ca/cds/public/202 ... ualify.pdf
 
User avatar
GCT64
Posts: 1941
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: Canada - Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project

Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:54 am

The only suitable aircraft already in the Canadian civil aircraft fleet would be the 5 "newest" A330-243s at TS. These are c/ns 728,732,971,795,966.
The oldest of these first flew in Jan 2006. If, as one document shows, IOC isn't till 2028/9 (which seems a long way away for the straightforward job of procuring / converting some A330-243s into MRTTs (the QF ones converted for the RAAF were completed in around 2-3 years)), then at the time of IOC the aircraft would already be 22 years old. By comparison, the RCAF A310s were only 5-6 years old when they joined the RCAF.

My conclusion is that none of the A330s currently in Canada are suitable candidates for this procurement.
 
johns624
Posts: 4239
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Canada - Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project

Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:00 pm

GCT64 wrote:
The only suitable aircraft already in the Canadian civil aircraft fleet would be the 5 "newest" A330-243s at TS. These are c/ns 728,732,971,795,966.
The oldest of these first flew in Jan 2006. If, as one document shows, IOC isn't till 2028/9 (which seems a long way away for the straightforward job of procuring / converting some A330-243s into MRTTs (the QF ones converted for the RAAF were completed in around 2-3 years)), then at the time of IOC the aircraft would already be 22 years old. By comparison, the RCAF A310s were only 5-6 years old when they joined the RCAF.

My conclusion is that none of the A330s currently in Canada are suitable candidates for this procurement.
This seems more like a political decision than a military driven one.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3854
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Canada - Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project

Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:20 pm

johns624 wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
The only suitable aircraft already in the Canadian civil aircraft fleet would be the 5 "newest" A330-243s at TS. These are c/ns 728,732,971,795,966.
The oldest of these first flew in Jan 2006. If, as one document shows, IOC isn't till 2028/9 (which seems a long way away for the straightforward job of procuring / converting some A330-243s into MRTTs (the QF ones converted for the RAAF were completed in around 2-3 years)), then at the time of IOC the aircraft would already be 22 years old. By comparison, the RCAF A310s were only 5-6 years old when they joined the RCAF.

My conclusion is that none of the A330s currently in Canada are suitable candidates for this procurement.
This seems more like a political decision than a military driven one.

Unless the intention is to purchase new airframes, and pay Air Canada to partner with Airbus to convert the airframes in Canada, and also hand them a maintenance and training contract.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11227
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

Re: Canada - Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project

Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:38 pm

There is always the KC-46A.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3854
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Canada - Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project

Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:33 pm

kc135topboom wrote:
There is always the KC-46A.

Doesn't meet the cargo and passenger capacity requirements.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: guppyflyer, Mortyman and 34 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos