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bikerthai
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:53 pm

mxaxai wrote:
I'm not sure how much there is to gain through Boeing's new digital approach. It has been my impression that the largest benefit is an increased agility of the manufacturing process,


In our line of work, there's a saying, Engineering hours are cheap. manufacturing hours are expensive.

The benefit of digital manufacturing not only increases agility, but also reduce flow time.

The ability to fabricate parts that can be "snapped together" reduces the touch labor that a mechanic has to do. Things like shimming and match drill eats up significant time.

A big benefit for reducing the touch labor is the concurrent reduction of rejection tags, that is where some of the savings comes from.

It does take significant engineering hours to convert the legacy design to the new method. So the process has to buy on to existing programs, in the commercial side with the high volume, it's a no brainer. However limited engineering resources and the current budget crunch may force them to take a slower approach.

bt
 
checksixx
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:14 pm

VMCA787 wrote:
checksixx.......

Read Flight International to see the rationale that led to the EX. Bikerthai hit the nail on the head with his answer to you. The current E will not be around forever and the EX will be able to assume the role of the E.

The cost to keep the current fleet of C/D flying is more than the current projected buy of EXs. That is just simple economics. The cost to the USAF if they want a single-seat F-15X is also prohibitive. So, by default, the EX is the only game in town.

Time to move on!!! AMF!!


I've read it. He wasn't answering me...I never asked about it. Bottom line is everything I've said is factual. I don't care if he doesn't like it and wants to spout off at the mouth about other, non-relevant things as it pertains to my comments. He's always free to waste his own time.
 
VMCA787
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:59 pm

checksixx wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:
checksixx.......

Read Flight International to see the rationale that led to the EX. Bikerthai hit the nail on the head with his answer to you. The current E will not be around forever and the EX will be able to assume the role of the E.

The cost to keep the current fleet of C/D flying is more than the current projected buy of EXs. That is just simple economics. The cost to the USAF if they want a single-seat F-15X is also prohibitive. So, by default, the EX is the only game in town.

Time to move on!!! AMF!!


I've read it. He wasn't answering me...I never asked about it. Bottom line is everything I've said is factual. I don't care if he doesn't like it and wants to spout off at the mouth about other, non-relevant things as it pertains to my comments. He's always free to waste his own time.

Then provide some sources!!!!!!
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:37 pm

The F15-EX is a great complimentary plane for the air force. Teamed up with the F-35's the Strike Eagle II can have its big radar blaring providing 'vision' to the F-35's some 10 miles ahead. As the enemy goes for the Strike Eagle II, they become visible targets for the F-35. Further, the F15 can be the bomb truck bringing a hefty amount of ordinance to the scene.

Yes, IF everything had gone well and the F35 was in full production, there would be several hundred additional F35's in the fleet by this time, just this situation alone speaks to doing the F15 order.

It is clear that something drove this acquisition, I believe it was the selection of the F15 EX as the best available platform for upcoming missile programs. It went from not happening to order placed in just a couple of years - that says it was picked to do an important mission.

Speaking of programs that have no mission - the 3 ship DDG-1000 takes the cake for me, over 25B spent for 3 ships that they cannot afford the shells for its fancy gun. That 25B would have bought two dozen FREMM frigates that do have value.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:44 pm

checksixx wrote:
Bottom line is everything I've said is factual.


Not everything.

checksixx wrote:
They literally cost more than an F-35.

This is factual, and I did not disagree.

checksixx wrote:
agree on is the absolute rip-off price Boeing is selling these new Eagles at.


This is your opinion and the Air Force would disagree.

checksixx wrote:
.the Qatari's funded the development along with the aircraft purchase. You could never compare the two.


Development cost are non-recurring sunk cost and should not be used for this comparison. That was not what I was asking for.

If you have the recurring per frame cost comparing the QA frame with the EX frame then you have a chance of convincing me.

Otherwise what your are saying is just as much an opinion as what I am saying.

bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Thu May 13, 2021 4:14 pm

Looks like the long term mission of the F-15EX is to replace the F-15E.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/usaf-wi ... taff-said/

And work as a small bomber.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 13.article

bt
 
889091
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Fri May 14, 2021 1:10 am

bikerthai wrote:


Would its mission profile also include the Loyal Wingman drone on the hardpoints under the wing?

In addition, the JASSM at the rear just looks weird. Wouldn't it cause the nose to pitch up during cruise?

Image
 
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bikerthai
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Fri May 14, 2021 4:07 am

889091 wrote:
Would its mission profile also include the Loyal Wingman drone on the hardpoints under the wing?


Would you rather have a loyal wingman or a rack of 4 AA missiles?

889091 wrote:
In addition, the JASSM at the rear just looks weird. Wouldn't it cause the nose to pitch up during cruise?


The F-15 is somewhat stable, unlike the F-18 or F-16. If it start to pitch up, the increased lifting moment will want to push the nose back down.

bt
 
bajs11
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Fri May 14, 2021 8:14 am

and
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/05 ... successor/
Hinote said that the service is still studying whether it can modify its F-15Es to an EX configuration or whether it will buy new planes from Boeing.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Fri May 14, 2021 12:45 pm

To gain the same capability, the E would need updated engines which would be quite expensive anyway. It would encourage Boeing to make the EX cheap enough to discourage that route.

bt
 
johns624
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Fri May 14, 2021 1:00 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Speaking of programs that have no mission - the 3 ship DDG-1000 takes the cake for me, over 25B spent for 3 ships that they cannot afford the shells for its fancy gun. That 25B would have bought two dozen FREMM frigates that do have value.
+1. You can even throw the LCS in there. If they hadn't been built, think how many FREMMs we could afford.
 
744SPX
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Fri May 14, 2021 2:26 pm

889091 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:


Would its mission profile also include the Loyal Wingman drone on the hardpoints under the wing?

In addition, the JASSM at the rear just looks weird. Wouldn't it cause the nose to pitch up during cruise?

Image



That's a drag cluster right there. Probably can't even exceed mach 1 in that configuration.
 
bajs11
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Fri May 14, 2021 8:10 pm

744SPX wrote:

That's a drag cluster right there. Probably can't even exceed mach 1 in that configuration.



If those are AGM-158B or C they probably wouldn't need to reach very high speeds
and it can't be that much worse than hanging a bunch of GBUs
Image

It will most likely be used against near-pier adversaries like a certain totalitarian regime in East Asia where the range of AGM-158B is more important than the speed of their carriers.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sat May 15, 2021 9:16 pm

johns624 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Speaking of programs that have no mission - the 3 ship DDG-1000 takes the cake for me, over 25B spent for 3 ships that they cannot afford the shells for its fancy gun. That 25B would have bought two dozen FREMM frigates that do have value.
+1. You can even throw the LCS in there. If they hadn't been built, think how many FREMMs we could afford.


Similarly with the USS Ford, more than twice the cost of the last Nimitz class carrier, many years late with EIS. Supposed to go for its shock testing soon, but 4 of its weapons elevators are still not in service, two of these are not expected until 2022 now. Why shock test with half its elevators not in service, as those elevators are critical for its mission, if the elevators don't work, the ship is a floating target not in the fight.

I fully understand doing the EMALS catapults, the steam systems are very high maintenance. But the arrestor system using basically huge hydraulic shock absorbers is a design that works well, why change. Same with these elevators, using a traction elevator with multiple hoist cables is a time proven system. These linear motors just seem not ready for prime time.

I just hope the FREMM's turn out to be a good to very good ship.
 
johns624
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sat May 15, 2021 10:22 pm

The French and Italians seem to like them. I think it mainly depends on how much they have to "modified" so they are good enough for the USN.
 
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par13del
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sun May 16, 2021 4:53 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
I just hope the FREMM's turn out to be a good to very good ship.

Which ones are you talking about, those already in production or the custom models that will be produced for the US Navy, you don't really think it is going to be any different than all other Off The Shelf purchases?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sun May 16, 2021 6:55 pm

par13del wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
I just hope the FREMM's turn out to be a good to very good ship.

Which ones are you talking about, those already in production or the custom models that will be produced for the US Navy, you don't really think it is going to be any different than all other Off The Shelf purchases?


The FREMM's are a developed design, with the first commission in 2012 and 18 in service. So far, not one has dropped its transmission, got salt water in the lube oil, etc. In short, the design appears to not have serious shortcomings. They seem to be able to increase the electrical capacity and have a good bit of space for improvements over the years.

Yes the US Navy ones will switch a few years out to US made engines and transmissions, they need to perform reliably.

Some off the shelf purchases have done well - the P-8 comes to mind, some not so - KC-46. But the US Navy's track record on development has been poor to dismal - LCS, DDG-1000, the Ford, the Seawolf class of subs (shrunk to just 3 ships),
 
texl1649
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sun May 16, 2021 7:45 pm

johns624 wrote:
The French and Italians seem to like them. I think it mainly depends on how much they have to "modified" so they are good enough for the USN.


They seem like very well designed/built ships. Here’s hoping the ‘Americanization’ doesn’t screw it up.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sun May 16, 2021 9:09 pm

Seawolf was fine..outstanding in every way really. Just the mission for which she was purchased (killing Soviet SAGs in open water) went away. Much of that class good lives in the Virginia.
 
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STT757
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Mon May 17, 2021 12:40 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
par13del wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
I just hope the FREMM's turn out to be a good to very good ship.

Which ones are you talking about, those already in production or the custom models that will be produced for the US Navy, you don't really think it is going to be any different than all other Off The Shelf purchases?


The FREMM's are a developed design, with the first commission in 2012 and 18 in service. So far, not one has dropped its transmission, got salt water in the lube oil, etc. In short, the design appears to not have serious shortcomings. They seem to be able to increase the electrical capacity and have a good bit of space for improvements over the years.

Yes the US Navy ones will switch a few years out to US made engines and transmissions, they need to perform reliably.

Some off the shelf purchases have done well - the P-8 comes to mind, some not so - KC-46. But the US Navy's track record on development has been poor to dismal - LCS, DDG-1000, the Ford, the Seawolf class of subs (shrunk to just 3 ships),


What about purchasing off the shelf diesel/ electric subs? Cheap option to supplement the Virginia /Sea Wolf fleet. Seems perfect to operate in the South China Sea from Guam, Japan and Western Australia.
 
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HowardDGA
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Tue May 18, 2021 12:26 am

STT757 - Where is this shelf? And what are your criteria for “cheap”?

Spanish S-80 class is about a billion per hull - if they can ever finish one. Range for the Baltic and Med is less of an issue than the western Pacific, so IMHO the highly regarded boats from Sweden and Germany may not measure up. Not an expert and YMMV.
 
CX747
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Tue May 18, 2021 1:31 am

bajs11 wrote:
and
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/05 ... successor/
Hinote said that the service is still studying whether it can modify its F-15Es to an EX configuration or whether it will buy new planes from Boeing.


Part of the overall plan from the beginning. The EX is a fantastic platform and replacing not only the Albinoes but the Mudhens and provide the AF with a young, vibrant fleet of missile toters and bomb haulers that have range, speed, carrying capability and fuel to burn. They are a brand new pickup truck that can haul what you want, where you want and how you want. The F-22 and F-35 to a degree will kick open the door but the heavy hauling pounding of the enemy will be by the EX.

Glad to see the NGAD and F-16/F-16 Replacement gets discussed.

F-22: Still Semi-King (Did the F-15C ever really step down???) but the NGAD is coming and that's where the focus needs to be. This will be the heir apparent to the F-15C/F-22 fleet. We can not miss the mark. This is the backbone, the future and the next large fighter. Get it right, get it in budget and get it to the fleet.

F-35: Operated in good numbers and using its strength of stealth and tech to allow the heavy punchers to do their job. It's tech is great but it can not be called on to be an F-15E, A-10, F-15C or F-22. It is a high tech F-16, no more, no less.

F-15C: Replaced by the F-15EX. Adios my old friend but time marches on and the EX gives me everything you do...plus more. 101-0 lives on.

F-15E: Love the Hen to death. An updated version in the EX increases caps, decreases costs/age and provides a more open cockpit architecture for future tech. Throw the younger Hens at some ANG squadrons still pushing Block 30 F-16s. We have an ultimate bomb truck, missile carrier here. Let's get production going.

F-16: Continues as the Jack of All Trades until the next low cost, light fighter can come around OR somehow Block 80s starting rolling off the line. Something in me wants to see what Northrop Grumman can come up with.

A-10: Well, at least they didn't attempt to retire the Hawg tomorrow which is the standard play. I guess Syria in the late teens finally opened some eyes to what the Hawg brings to the battlefield. Operating for another decade plus is a good thing. When another shooting war rears it's ugly head, the retirement date will be pushed back, again.....because when you absolutely, positively, with out a doubt need to smoke men and machines near your own brothers, it does that JOB better than anything else.
 
SteelChair
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Tue May 18, 2021 8:59 am

F15ex is much better at returning home after an engine failure than a F16 or 35.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Tue May 18, 2021 10:08 am

SteelChair wrote:
F15ex is much better at returning home after an engine failure than a F16 or 35.

Actually, not much anymore. See these USAF Safety Center stats for both the F-15 and F-16 with the F100-PW-229 engine, and compare same engine Class A mishaps attributed to engine issues;

https://www.safety.af.mil/Portals/71/do ... PW-229.pdf

https://www.safety.af.mil/Portals/71/do ... PW-229.pdf

An F-15 with the F100-PW-229 engine has had .60 engine related Class A mishaps per 100K expected flight hours, while the same engine installed in a F-16 has had zero.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Tue May 18, 2021 12:17 pm

SteelChair wrote:
F15ex is much better at returning home after an engine failure than a F16 or 35.


Maybe you should have said the F-15ex is much better at returning home after a wing loss. :cheeky:

And for a moment my eyes was seeing "5ex is much better". :rotfl:

bt
 
CX747
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Tue May 18, 2021 1:24 pm

bikerthai wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
F15ex is much better at returning home after an engine failure than a F16 or 35.


Maybe you should have said the F-15ex is much better at returning home after a wing loss. :cheeky:

And for a moment my eyes was seeing "5ex is much better". :rotfl:

bt


Well played there. Pretty sure some guys down at Eglin are working on an appropriate 5ex moniker.

If you have an engine related issue in a twin, things have become interesting. If you have an engine issue in a single engine, well, that's a different problem all together. Both the F-15 and F-16 are good aircraft. Overall crashes between the two designs between 1975 to 2019 stand at:

F-16 crashes-388
F-15 crashes-126

Still amazing that the F-15 returned without a wing.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Tue May 18, 2021 4:39 pm

The mission statement for the F-15EX just got be bigger.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... ir-missile

Surprise, surprise, :roll: it seems when the AF Generals were fast racking the EX, they knew more than they were telling us

bt
 
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kitplane01
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Wed May 19, 2021 6:48 am

CX747 wrote:
bajs11 wrote:
and
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/05 ... successor/
Hinote said that the service is still studying whether it can modify its F-15Es to an EX configuration or whether it will buy new planes from Boeing.


Part of the overall plan from the beginning. The EX is a fantastic platform and replacing not only the Albinoes but the Mudhens and provide the AF with a young, vibrant fleet of missile toters and bomb haulers that have range, speed, carrying capability and fuel to burn. They are a brand new pickup truck that can haul what you want, where you want and how you want. The F-22 and F-35 to a degree will kick open the door but the heavy hauling pounding of the enemy will be by the EX.


A "fantastic platform" would not have the radar cross section of a drunk 747 trying to get attention.

The F-15 can not operate in a contested environment. It can survive against the Iraqi anti-air system, but against a near-peer it will have to wait for stealthy platforms to "kick the door open". But once we've made the skies safe for the F-15, we've already won!

Like a "brand new pickup truck" it can only drive where no one will shoot at it.

The F-15EX .. costs more than an F-16 in ground attack mode, worse than an F-35 in long range air-air mode.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Wed May 19, 2021 6:59 am

CX747 wrote:
A-10: Well, at least they didn't attempt to retire the Hawg tomorrow which is the standard play. I guess Syria in the late teens finally opened some eyes to what the Hawg brings to the battlefield. Operating for another decade plus is a good thing. When another shooting war rears it's ugly head, the retirement date will be pushed back, again.....because when you absolutely, positively, with out a doubt need to smoke men and machines near your own brothers, it does that JOB better than anything else.


The A-10 is my favorite plane in the Air Force, it isn't 5exy but what it brings to the battlefield and close air support. Pretty economical too. Just a basic workhorse.
 
SteelChair
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Wed May 19, 2021 7:14 am

CX747 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
F15ex is much better at returning home after an engine failure than a F16 or 35.


Maybe you should have said the F-15ex is much better at returning home after a wing loss. :cheeky:

And for a moment my eyes was seeing "5ex is much better". :rotfl:

bt


Well played there. Pretty sure some guys down at Eglin are working on an appropriate 5ex moniker.

If you have an engine related issue in a twin, things have become interesting. If you have an engine issue in a single engine, well, that's a different problem all together. Both the F-15 and F-16 are good aircraft. Overall crashes between the two designs between 1975 to 2019 stand at:

F-16 crashes-388
F-15 crashes-126

Still amazing that the F-15 returned without a wing.
I

I've often wondered what the F14 vs F18SH stats are. My guess is far in favor of the SH.

War fighting and sexy capabilities get all the glamor, but day to day training (jet not broken) and reliability/safety count for a lot imho.
 
bajs11
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Wed May 19, 2021 10:11 am

kitplane01 wrote:

A "fantastic platform" would not have the radar cross section of a drunk 747 trying to get attention.

The F-15 can not operate in a contested environment. It can survive against the Iraqi anti-air system, but against a near-peer it will have to wait for stealthy platforms to "kick the door open". But once we've made the skies safe for the F-15, we've already won!


which is why it will be carrying long range missiles like the AGM-158B and possibly the AGM-183
F-35 can't carry the AGM-158 internally anyway
 
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bikerthai
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Wed May 19, 2021 12:11 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
A "fantastic platform" would not have the radar cross section of a drunk 747 trying to get attention.


Not everything in the world has to be about stealth.

And yes, a 747 is a hell of a fantastic airplane for its mission.

kitplane01 wrote:
The F-15EX .. costs more than an F-16 in ground attack mode,


An F-15 can give you that range from Japan to Taiwan to fight over semi-contested air space and can carry the quantity of larger standoff ordinance than that the F-16 or F-35 can.

And in the case of the F-35, the F-15 can be the stand-off bomb rack that allow the -35 to attack targets without breaking its stealth cover. Lemon out of lemonade, I know. But Airforce generals are not dummies. They gotta be advocating the 15 for some reason.


bt
 
VMCA787
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Thu May 20, 2021 6:59 am

Interesting piece from Flight International on the use of F-15E/EX in conjunction with the F-35. So much for no role!!

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 28.article
 
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kitplane01
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sat May 22, 2021 3:29 am

VMCA787 wrote:
Interesting piece from Flight International on the use of F-15E/EX in conjunction with the F-35. So much for no role!!

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 28.article


They used the f-15 to carry a pod. Surely the f-35 could have carried the pod??? I understand that you lose stealth while carrying the pod, but you get the stealth back when you remove the pod. And the f-35 costs less.

Besides I thought the f-35 could jam without any pods, switching from stealthy to jamming on a moment by moment basis.

What about this story makes me like the f-15ex?
 
VMCA787
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sat May 22, 2021 6:52 am

kitplane01 wrote:

What about this story makes me like the f-15ex?


I didn't realize this forum was about you!!
 
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kitplane01
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sat May 22, 2021 7:12 am

VMCA787 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

What about this story makes me like the f-15ex?


I didn't realize this forum was about you!!


And maybe someone else can answer the question: What about this story makes the F-15ex the right plane to buy?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sat May 22, 2021 11:31 am

kitplane01 wrote:
Besides I thought the f-35 could jam without any pods, switching from stealthy to jamming on a moment by moment basis.


Well once you turn off the jamming, the enemy knows we're you are even if they can't see you. Half of your element of surprise is gone.

kitplane01 wrote:
What about this story makes me like the f-15ex?


Apparently nothing the F-15EX can do will make you like it.

But the versatility of the aircraft seems to having the Airforce generals liking it more and more. It is merely icing on the cake to the fact that the can't train/re-train pilots fast enough to fly the F-35 while still meet the mission requirements.

And even when they have enough F-35 pilots, they will still want to keep the capability of the F-15E in the form of the EX in order to lob those outsized ordinances that without the F-15 EX an only be fielded by the B-52 or the B-3.

bt
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sat May 22, 2021 7:19 pm

No point in an airplane being stealthy if the really big radar is on, so put the F-15ex a bit behind the F-35's and turn on that radar for all planes to use. The F-15ex is getting a quite powerful radar going into it. Add in it being a bomb or missile truck and there is some good utility to it.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sun May 23, 2021 8:07 am

bikerthai wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Besides I thought the f-35 could jam without any pods, switching from stealthy to jamming on a moment by moment basis.


Well once you turn off the jamming, the enemy knows we're you are even if they can't see you. Half of your element of surprise is gone.


True. But the F-35 can go back to stealth mode .. the F-15 will always have the RCS of a Tu-95 painted red. Seriously, "half you element of surprise is gone" is better than the F-15, which is always detectable.





bikerthai wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
What about this story makes me like the f-15ex?


Apparently nothing the F-15EX can do will make you like it.

But the versatility of the aircraft seems to having the Airforce generals liking it more and more.


The F-15 was the best fighter in the world in the late 1970s. But it's been almost FIFTY years. Now the F-15 is not the best fighter in the world. And the ability to carry a pod is just not enough to justify the purchase of a very very expensive jet fighter in 2021. Versatility has to mean more than can carry a pod.

Or, to be more fair, it can carry a heavy weapons load with good endurance. But if you ignore nationalism, does it have any advantage beyond a second seat over a Eurofighter or a Rafale, because they have lower RCS and are a better dogfighter.
Last edited by kitplane01 on Sun May 23, 2021 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10417
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sun May 23, 2021 8:09 am

Rafale and Eurofighter are just as obsolete.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sun May 23, 2021 10:53 am

An article from Air Force Mag on the F-15ex at Northern Light.

What I find impressive is that the two F-15ex's were turned over to the Air Force just a few weeks ago, it seems like the plane is ready to go into service.

https://www.airforcemag.com/f-15ex-wins ... hern-edge/
 
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bikerthai
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sun May 23, 2021 12:16 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
The F-15 was the best fighter in the world in the late 1970s. But it's been almost FIFTY years.


The argument was not that the F-15 is the best fighter right now. The argument is the F-15EX still have a mission, and given the time constraint, is the best fighter to replace the F-15C and ultimately the F-15E. And in some instances can perform a function that an F-35 can't.

kitplane01 wrote:
But if you ignore nationalism, does it have any advantage beyond a second seat over a Eurofighter or a Rafale, because they have lower RCS and are a better dogfighter.


The US Airforce was not looking for lower RCS or a better dog fighter. It was looking for a frame that was available quickly for the NG with minimal retraining for the existing F-15C pilots. Everything else that the F-15EX can do that the other fighters can't is just icing on the cake.

It's not nationalism. It's being a fan boy with a coherent argument as opposed to scattershot criticism that does not address the core requirement of the US Airforce.

bt
 
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kitplane01
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sun May 23, 2021 5:42 pm

bikerthai wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
The F-15 was the best fighter in the world in the late 1970s. But it's been almost FIFTY years.


The argument was not that the F-15 is the best fighter right now. The argument is the F-15EX still have a mission, and given the time constraint, is the best fighter to replace the F-15C and ultimately the F-15E. And in some instances can perform a function that an F-35 can't.

kitplane01 wrote:
But if you ignore nationalism, does it have any advantage beyond a second seat over a Eurofighter or a Rafale, because they have lower RCS and are a better dogfighter.


The US Airforce was not looking for lower RCS or a better dog fighter. It was looking for a frame that was available quickly for the NG with minimal retraining for the existing F-15C pilots. Everything else that the F-15EX can do that the other fighters can't is just icing on the cake.

It's not nationalism. It's being a fan boy with a coherent argument as opposed to scattershot criticism that does not address the core requirement of the US Airforce.

bt


I dunno about scattershot. My claim has always been there is few missions for which the F-15 is the most economical solution. And carrying a pod can be done by cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate airplanes, or drones.

But if the "core requirement" is that we need to buy $100M fighters because of pilot retaining problems .. something is wrong.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Sun May 23, 2021 5:53 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
But if the "core requirement" is that we need to buy $100M fighters because of pilot retaining problems .. something is wrong.


Wow, welcome to the party, dude.

What do you think the AF has been screaming about for literally decades? Not fully replacing the F-15 with the F-22 had costs that Stevie Wonder could see from miles away. This program is but one example of those dues coming to be paid.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Mon May 24, 2021 3:10 am

kitplane01 wrote:
But if the "core requirement" is that we need to buy $100M fighters because of pilot retaining problems .. something is wrong.


When you have a volunteer army you have this kind of issue may happen. Not saying that this is the case here, but if they had enough qualified pilot candidates would they have been able to forgo retraining the F-15 pilots and just train new 35 pilots?

Oh yeah the other thing to think about, sure the 15 cost more than a 16 or 35 but you only need one pilot to deliver the number of ordinance that would take two F-16 or F-35. Useful if you have have a pilot shortage. Ofcourse the drone wingman will solve that. But that is still a ways off.

bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Wed May 26, 2021 1:34 pm

So one of the future mission for the F-15E/EX is being a jammer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... lanes/amp/

Doesn't the F-16 have that capability?

bt
 
CDNlaxdad
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Wed May 26, 2021 7:14 pm

Kitplane, the real disconnect here is the lack of experience / ability to realize that the world as a whole is how it is - with many interlaced layers of complexity, And it's not simply how you think it should be. All things are not equal and all the cards are not dealt face up. After a month you are still wedded to the concept of economical in a military context. The military pays / overpays to create and maintain the ability to do things, Initial / operating costs are not the defining factor when the cost of the inability to do that something is incalcuable.

Info released through the last month has revealed multiple missions and plans to expand the capabilities of a proven platform essentially already in US inventory. After seeing what might just be the tip of the iceberg in what these new build F15EX are being built for - can't you just accept that the basic premise of your post is, well .... wrong?
 
bobinthecar
Posts: 24
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Thu May 27, 2021 2:45 am

I would be willing to bet that the F-15EX in 20 years will still be the equal or superior to the vast majority of aircraft it is likely to face.
 
ELBOB
Posts: 374
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Thu May 27, 2021 7:01 am

CDNlaxdad wrote:
Info released through the last month has revealed multiple missions and plans to expand the capabilities of a proven platform essentially already in US inventory.


Well yes, because they'll have to find roles for a type that they didn't want in the inventory. No point putting them straight into storage in a hangar if Congress isn't going to vote through funds for aeroplanes that they actually did want.

Make the most of what you get.
 
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kitplane01
Topic Author
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Re: F-15X has no mission!

Thu May 27, 2021 8:30 am

CDNlaxdad wrote:
Kitplane, the real disconnect here is the lack of experience / ability to realize that the world as a whole is how it is - with many interlaced layers of complexity, And it's not simply how you think it should be. All things are not equal and all the cards are not dealt face up. After a month you are still wedded to the concept of economical in a military context. The military pays / overpays to create and maintain the ability to do things, Initial / operating costs are not the defining factor when the cost of the inability to do that something is incalcuable.

Info released through the last month has revealed multiple missions and plans to expand the capabilities of a proven platform essentially already in US inventory. After seeing what might just be the tip of the iceberg in what these new build F15EX are being built for - can't you just accept that the basic premise of your post is, well .... wrong?



I pretty much think ignoring economics is deadly. Given a fixed budget, and a desire to have fewer casualties, spending money wisely is necessary.

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