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ThePointblank
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French Air Force Buys 8 H225M's and Leases 15 H225's

Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:15 pm

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... ort-airbus

The French Air Force has purchased 8 H225M's from Airbus, to be delivered in 2024—25, which will equip a new unit and replace a trio of Puma helicopters based in Djibouti in the Horn of Africa. They will be fitted for, but not with a self-defense suite, and won't be aerial refueling capable.

An additional 15 H225's are being acquired in a lease to own deal and will replace 12 Puma operating as utility and SAR duties and three Super Puma VIP helicopters.
 
mxaxai
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Re: French Air Force Buys 8 H225M's and Leases 15 H225's

Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:29 pm

So does that mean that the rumored interest in some Chinooks was dropped in favor of the H225M?
 
ThePointblank
Topic Author
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Re: French Air Force Buys 8 H225M's and Leases 15 H225's

Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:35 pm

mxaxai wrote:
So does that mean that the rumored interest in some Chinooks was dropped in favor of the H225M?

Jane's is describing the purchase and lease as a sort of a way to support Airbus via stimulus spending. Other outlets are also mentioning additional purchases of Airbus helicopters for other government agencies as well.
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 215
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Re: French Air Force Buys 8 H225M's and Leases 15 H225's

Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:05 am

I wouldn’t consider the Super Puma a Chinook replacement. Certainly a Chinook would be overkill for the support mission in DJ.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: French Air Force Buys 8 H225M's and Leases 15 H225's

Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:22 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/france-orders-h225m-caracal-helicopters-to-support-airbus

An additional 15 H225's are being acquired in a lease to own deal and will replace 12 Puma operating as utility and SAR duties and three Super Puma VIP helicopters.


Can someone explain the economics of this lease-to-own deal? Given that the French government can borrow at a lower rate that Airbus, it would make better sense to have the French government do the borrowing.

Normally one does lease-to-own where (1) the lessor has a access to a lower interest rate or (2) the buyer is not sure they want to buy, and there is a used market the provider can access.
 
WIederling
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Re: French Air Force Buys 8 H225M's and Leases 15 H225's

Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:26 am

kitplane01 wrote:
Normally one does lease-to-own where (1) the lessor has a access to a lower interest rate or (2) the buyer is not sure they want to buy, and there is a used market the provider can access.


Different budget boxes. Buying is investment, leasing is (operations) cost. ?
 
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kitplane01
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Re: French Air Force Buys 8 H225M's and Leases 15 H225's

Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:40 am

WIederling wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Normally one does lease-to-own where (1) the lessor has a access to a lower interest rate or (2) the buyer is not sure they want to buy, and there is a used market the provider can access.


Different budget boxes. Buying is investment, leasing is (operations) cost. ?


Maybe. But if so that's. stupid. Increases total cost.
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 4174
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Re: French Air Force Buys 8 H225M's and Leases 15 H225's

Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:50 am

kitplane01 wrote:
Maybe. But if so that's. stupid. Increases total cost.


Lemon to lemon aid. Why do people buy houses using mortgages, though in the end it will cost them a lot more?

bt
 
WIederling
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Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: French Air Force Buys 8 H225M's and Leases 15 H225's

Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:35 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Normally one does lease-to-own where (1) the lessor has a access to a lower interest rate or (2) the buyer is not sure they want to buy, and there is a used market the provider can access.


Different budget boxes. Buying is investment, leasing is (operations) cost. ?


Maybe. But if so that's. stupid. Increases total cost.


Reason does not count.
I've worked for science institutes in the past. they have 3 kinds of money:
regular budget money: you get it. you can use it now or later.
volatile budget money: you have to spend it till year end. otherwise you lose it.
highly volatile budget: you have to spend it till year end other wise you lose it _and_ you lose it from next years budget too from the get go as you apparently do not need it.

no chance to save something this year and together with next years assignment buy something sensible.

Guess how much buying is done just ahead of year end. (often senseless) spending spree to save the volatile portions?
Guess how much buying is done of $XYZ or some other fantasy items to store this money at a supplier for next year?

In most cases no critique of dysfunctional rules is offered but people silently work around the issues.
( with the downside that these deformations are never fixed.)
 
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kitplane01
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Re: French Air Force Buys 8 H225M's and Leases 15 H225's

Sun May 02, 2021 4:07 am

bikerthai wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Maybe. But if so that's. stupid. Increases total cost.


Lemon to lemon aid. Why do people buy houses using mortgages, though in the end it will cost them a lot more?

bt


Nope that's a bad analogy. It really makes no sense. And no, I don't want to debate analogies .. I'd rather discuss the actual thing itself.

If someone has to borrow money, it should be the person with access to the lowest interest rate. This is really basic economics. And the government of France has access to a lower interest rate than Airbus.
 
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kitplane01
Posts: 2003
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: French Air Force Buys 8 H225M's and Leases 15 H225's

Sun May 02, 2021 4:08 am

WIederling wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

Different budget boxes. Buying is investment, leasing is (operations) cost. ?


Maybe. But if so that's. stupid. Increases total cost.


Reason does not count.
I've worked for science institutes in the past. they have 3 kinds of money:
regular budget money: you get it. you can use it now or later.
volatile budget money: you have to spend it till year end. otherwise you lose it.
highly volatile budget: you have to spend it till year end other wise you lose it _and_ you lose it from next years budget too from the get go as you apparently do not need it.

no chance to save something this year and together with next years assignment buy something sensible.

Guess how much buying is done just ahead of year end. (often senseless) spending spree to save the volatile portions?
Guess how much buying is done of $XYZ or some other fantasy items to store this money at a supplier for next year?

In most cases no critique of dysfunctional rules is offered but people silently work around the issues.
( with the downside that these deformations are never fixed.)


Ya, I have a job with stuff like this too.

But none of this is right. Imagine a world with non-stupid rules and how much better it could be ... What France did was stupid. (I think we agree on that).
 
CRJockey
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: French Air Force Buys 8 H225M's and Leases 15 H225's

Sun May 02, 2021 9:56 am

kitplane01 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

Maybe. But if so that's. stupid. Increases total cost.


Reason does not count.
I've worked for science institutes in the past. they have 3 kinds of money:
regular budget money: you get it. you can use it now or later.
volatile budget money: you have to spend it till year end. otherwise you lose it.
highly volatile budget: you have to spend it till year end other wise you lose it _and_ you lose it from next years budget too from the get go as you apparently do not need it.

no chance to save something this year and together with next years assignment buy something sensible.

Guess how much buying is done just ahead of year end. (often senseless) spending spree to save the volatile portions?
Guess how much buying is done of $XYZ or some other fantasy items to store this money at a supplier for next year?

In most cases no critique of dysfunctional rules is offered but people silently work around the issues.
( with the downside that these deformations are never fixed.)


Ya, I have a job with stuff like this too.

But none of this is right. Imagine a world with non-stupid rules and how much better it could be ... What France did was stupid. (I think we agree on that).


I Imagine a world where people refrain from judging complex processes from their armchairs with only minuscule amount of information. (I think we agree on that.)
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: French Air Force Buys 8 H225M's and Leases 15 H225's

Sun May 02, 2021 10:30 am

kitplane01 wrote:
Ya, I have a job with stuff like this too.

But none of this is right. Imagine a world with non-stupid rules and how much better it could be ... What France did was stupid. (I think we agree on that).


If wishes were ...

it is not right. Most definitely not.
But:
In most cases no critique of dysfunctional rules is offered but people silently work around the issues.
( with the downside that these deformations are never fixed.)


Least resistance path is used. i.e. not fixed but worked around.
Then there are people that like it the way it is as it enables their personal corruption projects.

Lastly there is Pournelle's Iron Law on Bureaucracies.
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 4174
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: French Air Force Buys 8 H225M's and Leases 15 H225's

Sun May 02, 2021 1:37 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
And the government of France has access to a lower interest rate than Airbus.


Hold on, isn't the French government the one guaranteeing the Aurbus Loans?

Anyway, the different been a lease and a mortgage is until you pay off the lease the you do not own the frames and you can walk away from the deal by paying only the penalty. If you take out the loan to pay for the frames, you are locked in and will have to deal with the resale if you change your mind.

My take is they want the flexibility of changing their minds and is willing to pay extra for that flexibility.

bt

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