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zanl188
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sat May 22, 2021 10:55 pm

No flippable rollers on 747F. C-5 has them so flush floor can be driven on. This is also one of the reasons for subfloor requirement on KC-10.

I’m not sure if this still true, but when KC-10 was new the Booms wouldn’t even let folks walk on the floor. Either had to walk on the seat pallets or the catwalk down the side.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sat May 22, 2021 11:37 pm

Our loadmasters could swap from rollers to flat floor in minutes. Great feature, but necessary on Ro-Ro operations.
 
UA857
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Thu May 27, 2021 6:17 pm

Would the 747F still be flying when the C-5M is retired?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Thu May 27, 2021 10:34 pm

Who knows, it’s just speculation on anyone’s part. Again, for the last time, the 747F is not a substitute for the C-5/C-17 fleet, the USAF is NOT interested or likely to ever operate a 747 freighter, THERE. IS. NO. NEED. FOR. IT. They can keep those two fleets operating for a long time. Long enough that war fighting technology will change to require a new airlifter.
 
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cjg225
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Thu May 27, 2021 11:19 pm

I love this thread.
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LyleLanley
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Fri May 28, 2021 5:15 am

Definitely a highlight of milav.

UA857: don’t listen to galaxy! Just a few more questions and inane examples and he’ll be converted
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Boeing757100
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Fri May 28, 2021 10:14 pm

cjg225 wrote:
I love this thread.



Um, do you mean this in a good or bad way? If it's the latter, then it is your problem for taking the time to read and post in the thread knowing full well you "love" the thread. Seriously, the OP was asking a question, and is it really that hard to let others answer it if you don't like the question?
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johns624
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Fri May 28, 2021 10:24 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
cjg225 wrote:
I love this thread.



Um, do you mean this in a good or bad way? If it's the latter, then it is your problem for taking the time to read and post in the thread knowing full well you "love" the thread. Seriously, the OP was asking a question, and is it really that hard to let others answer it if you don't like the question?
Yes, the OP asked a question and has been answered by several very knowledgeable members. However, he doesn't like the answers, so he keeps asking the same question, just worded slightly differently. Sorta like the thread on the F15X...
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Fri May 28, 2021 10:28 pm

I've heard that the US was considering a YAL-1, which is not a freighter, but a 744 that can shoot lasers.

For further reading
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YAL-1

Besides this, there were a plethora of other 747 variants that were considered by the armed forces but were never introduced
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_74 ... r_variants

Please don't call me dumb or anything (I'm 14 only), but an idea fell into my head recently. You remember the idea back in the 60s/70s where Boeing 747 would be an airborne aircraft carrier? Well, what if that came back? Now, I get it, total horse-poop, and yes I agree. But, rather than using actual fighters, why not unmanned drones? And you know the dreamlifter's hinge tail? Why not add this to the 747-8F? I know, I know, total stupid, but just throwing ideas out here. The fact that a theortetical hinge-tail 748F does not have APU is the tip of the iceberg of problems, but I'm just a typical queen of the skies fan. :wave:
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LyleLanley
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sat May 29, 2021 12:07 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
And you know the dreamlifter's hinge tail? Why not add this to the 747-8F? I know, I know, total stupid, but just throwing ideas out here. The fact that a theortetical hinge-tail 748F does not have APU is the tip of the iceberg of problems, but I'm just a typical queen of the skies fan. :wave:


If you already think it’s totally stupid why do you toss it out there? Serious question. Nothing dumb with asking questions! Knowledge comes with memorizing facts, but wisdom comes from asking questions. Re: your 747 question, the nose-loading feature is already so rarely used, and gives you essentially the same thing as a swing tail, but without the horrendous engineering work, expense, and operating limitations necessary to operate on the regular. Most aircraft with swinging tails don’t have raise-able noses, so the swing tail is a better solution than swinging the cockpit. The Dreamlifter swings the tail into its bulbous cargo bay no other 747 has because the pieces it carries are too big for the nose loading (on any 747 model). Now, if you’re talking about having the tail swing in-flight for your 21st century aircraft carrier concept, then that’s not exactly a smart question...

The common theme in many of UA857’s threads is he/she asks basic questions (again, nothing wrong with that) and when knowledgeable people answer either asks even weirder, farther out questions that make little sense, or gleans onto one slight exception-to-the-rule that was omitted for clarity. Super annoying, but funny. I reference the C-46 thread where I wrote a lengthy, cogent, and sober response as to why the C-46 won’t happen and said something like “the only 767F the AF will ever see has AMAZON AIR painted on the side” or something like that; UA’s single sentence retort was that ATI also operates 767F in AMC charter missions... it’s examples like that which is the reason why these threads are so “loved”
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sat May 29, 2021 12:43 am

This scenario happens in aviation, mostly because non-experts think aviation is just like cars.

Non-expert asks question along the lines,”how does xxxx work”

Acknowledged expert answers with the “it depends” or “regulatory facts”, any answer that pretty alien to those non-experts.

Non-expert proceeds to tell experts, they don’t what they’re talking about.

Expert eventually comes around to, “if you’re so smart, how come you’re not the expert that you sought in the first place?”
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sat May 29, 2021 2:32 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Words of wisdom


Pfft. I don’t think you understand that a wet-leased 748F with a nose cargo door and new engines would have a way better cost per ton/mile than a C-5. :roll:
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bikerthai
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sat May 29, 2021 2:34 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
Please don't call me dumb or anything (I'm 14 only), but an idea fell into my head recently. You remember the idea back in the 60s/70s where Boeing 747 would be an airborne aircraft carrier? Well, what if that came back?


Admitting you are only 14 is a smart way to keep us old timer from biting your head off. :old:

Well, the they already are testing the C130 and C-17 as arsenal/ordinance delivery vehicles. The next step would be to slide a stack of wingman drones off the ramp wouldn't it?

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sat May 29, 2021 3:19 am

LyleLanley wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Words of wisdom


Pfft. I don’t think you understand that a wet-leased 748F with a nose cargo door and new engines would have a way better cost per ton/mile than a C-5. :roll:


No doubt true and irrelevant.
 
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cjg225
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sat May 29, 2021 2:08 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
Um, do you mean this in a good or bad way? If it's the latter, then it is your problem for taking the time to read and post in the thread knowing full well you "love" the thread. Seriously, the OP was asking a question, and is it really that hard to let others answer it if you don't like the question?

I find it very entertaining.
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FGITD
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sun May 30, 2021 5:11 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:


Um, do you mean this in a good or bad way? If it's the latter, then it is your problem for taking the time to read and post in the thread knowing full well you "love" the thread. Seriously, the OP was asking a question, and is it really that hard to let others answer it if you don't like the question?


MilAv is a very different place than the rest of the forum. For lack of a better phrase...these folks know their sh!t. It’s not like the others where someone asks about how a 744 handles, and someone pipes in with “well in my c172...” you can’t fake it here.

I know nothing, therefore I come here for the space posts, and I stay because the USAF needs 250+ 748Fs but don’t know it yet, but slowly we’ll convince Congress.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sun May 30, 2021 7:44 pm

FGITD wrote:
I stay because the USAF needs 250+ 748Fs but don’t know it yet, but slowly we’ll convince Congress.



How will Boeing build them? Triumph is already adios to the program.
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johns624
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sun May 30, 2021 7:49 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
I stay because the USAF needs 250+ 748Fs but don’t know it yet, but slowly we’ll convince Congress.



How will Boeing build them? Triumph is already adios to the program.
He used a device known as "sarcasm". Only the OP thinks that's real.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sun May 30, 2021 8:01 pm

johns624 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
I stay because the USAF needs 250+ 748Fs but don’t know it yet, but slowly we’ll convince Congress.



How will Boeing build them? Triumph is already adios to the program.
He used a device known as "sarcasm". Only the OP thinks that's real.




Yep, thought so, because in my mind, I was like NO WAY! Just wanted to be sure about it...
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texl1649
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sun May 30, 2021 9:24 pm

The DC-8 has been a great freighter since the 60’s too, but I also don’t think it’s an out of production aircraft the USAF should order.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:28 pm

FGITD wrote:
...I stay because the USAF needs 250+ 748Fs but don’t know it yet, but slowly we’ll convince Congress.


Haha! That’s the spirit!
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UA857
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:59 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:


How will Boeing build them? Triumph is already adios to the program.
He used a device known as "sarcasm". Only the OP thinks that's real.




Yep, thought so, because in my mind, I was like NO WAY! Just wanted to be sure about it...


Couldn't Boeing convince Triumph to restart production if that was a case for an order of 50 748Fs from the USAF similar to how Lockheed restarted the C-5 production line. I don't know why Boeing had to pull the plug on both the C-17 and 748F production lines. A lot of foreign military powers need the C-17 and demand for air cargo has rebound in the last several years meaning that Boeing should continue to produce 748Fs. Along with 50 748Fs, the USAF could order 4 E-4Cs (747-8I) to replace the E-4B.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:06 am

UA857 wrote:
Couldn't Boeing convince Triumph to restart production if that was a case for an order of 50 748Fs from the USAF similar to how Lockheed restarted the C-5 production line.


Only if Boeing promised to be Triumph’s friend. And even then, only maybe.
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UA857
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:09 am

LyleLanley wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Couldn't Boeing convince Triumph to restart production if that was a case for an order of 50 748Fs from the USAF similar to how Lockheed restarted the C-5 production line.


Only if Boeing promised to be Triumph’s friend. And even then, only maybe.


If the USAF could convince Lockheed to restart C-5 production they could convince Boeing to restart 747 production.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:52 am

UA857 wrote:
If the USAF could convince Lockheed to restart C-5 production they could convince Boeing to restart 747 production.


Lockheed is a Defense contractor. Boeing is a commercial aircraft company with a large defense arm. There is a difference in priority.

bt
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LyleLanley
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:25 am

UA857 wrote:
If the USAF could convince Lockheed to restart C-5 production they could convince Boeing to restart 747 production.


You got it all wrong, dude: Lockheed convinced the USAF. And Boeing couldn’t sell ice cubes to Bedouins, at the moment
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:55 am

Triumph sold all their toys, not sure if any of the jigs got stored, but the plant equipment has been auctioned off and the plant has been sold. The C-17 site at Long Beach has also been sold.

So only the cost of a new structures assembly line, soon also the cost of a final assembly line to restart.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:20 am

UA857 wrote:
LyleLanley wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Couldn't Boeing convince Triumph to restart production if that was a case for an order of 50 748Fs from the USAF similar to how Lockheed restarted the C-5 production line.


Only if Boeing promised to be Triumph’s friend. And even then, only maybe.


If the USAF could convince Lockheed to restart C-5 production they could convince Boeing to restart 747 production.

For the right amount of money, anything is possible, but the thing is, that amount of money might actually bring the per unit cost up so high, it would be cheaper to restart either C-5 or C-17 production.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:12 am

UA857 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
He used a device known as "sarcasm". Only the OP thinks that's real.




Yep, thought so, because in my mind, I was like NO WAY! Just wanted to be sure about it...


Couldn't Boeing convince Triumph to restart production if that was a case for an order of 50 748Fs from the USAF similar to how Lockheed restarted the C-5 production line. I don't know why Boeing had to pull the plug on both the C-17 and 748F production lines. A lot of foreign military powers need the C-17 and demand for air cargo has rebound in the last several years meaning that Boeing should continue to produce 748Fs. Along with 50 748Fs, the USAF could order 4 E-4Cs (747-8I) to replace the E-4B.


Well, at the time of C-17 line shutdown announcement, there were no official buyers. Boeing rolled the dice, and built 10 white-tails. They sold 9 relatively quickly, but that last frame, how many years it took them to sell it? one C-17 = quarter a billion $ sitting on the balance sheet, waiting for a buyer.
Production closed in 2015, India took the last frame in 2019, and indicated they wanted three, not one. Yes, Boeing miscalculated demand by 2 (two) airframes. If they guessed right, they would have not 250 M$ sitting in a warehouse, waiting for Indians to come around, but 750M$.
Now, exactly, how was Boeing supposed to act in this scenario, in your opinion? Build two more, and close the line? Or continue manufacturing and stockpiling C-17's into today?
And who would finance all of this?
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johns624
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:03 pm

UA857 wrote:
demand for air cargo has rebound in the last several years meaning that Boeing should continue to produce 748Fs.
Did you read the 777FX thread? That's what the air cargo giants are going to order.
 
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STT757
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:54 pm

UA857 wrote:
Is Boeing still accepting new orders for the 748F? I know that production will end in 2022, but could the USAF order up to 50 747-8Fs to keep production going for several more years? I can see the USAF basing the 747-8F out of Travis and Dover AFBs and use them as an augment to the C-5 and C-17 fleet for palletized cargo. The 747-8F can also be fitted with a detachable built-in ramp or on-board loader that can allow loading and offloading at austere locations.


There are other Boeing Military products that the US services need much more so than the 747-8F, Congress would be wise to fund additional:

P-8s Poseidons, has had a smooth entrance into service. Need to fill back the Reserve Patrol Squadrons which have been reduced from seven squadrons in the mid '00s to just two today.

F-18 Super Hornet Block III's, the newest Super Hornet with conformal tanks for longer range and other improvements. Replace worn out Super Hornets from combat tempo of the the last 20 years. Move displaced older Super Hornets to back fill Navy Reserve Squadrons which are operating legacy model F-18s.

KC-46, continue the replacements of the oldest KC-135s and KC-10s.

Additional CH-47F block II and MH-47G helicopters for the Army.

F-15EX to replace F-15Cs, F-15 Ds, F-15Es.

The Ground-based Midcourse Defense (GMD) missile.
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LyleLanley
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:19 am

STT757 wrote:
Cogent and reasonable words


But the 748F has a nose cargo door! Surely, you overlooked that tidbit when you listed some (not all) of the DoD’s priority programs, just now
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STT757
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:21 am

LyleLanley wrote:
STT757 wrote:
Cogent and reasonable words


But the 748F has a nose cargo door! Surely, you overlooked that tidbit when you listed some (not all) of the DoD’s priority programs, just now


I want;

21 additional P-8s, above the 138 the Navy asked for, to fill out three additional Reserve Patrol Squadrons at:

7 Joint Base MDL, New Jersey
7 NAS JRB New Orleans, LA
7 NAS Point Mugu, CA

25 C-130Js for the Navy Reserve Logistics Squadrons to replace their 25 C-130Ts

The Navy to source 10 additional C-40s , perhaps former DL, to fill out an additional 3 additional Reserve Logistics squadrons (3 Joint Base MDL, 3 Joint Base Andrews, 3 JRB NAS New Orleans).

Replace all F-15 C, D, E with F-15EX.

Sped up delivery of KC-46.

Long range ground Based Anti- Ship missiles for the Marines.

F-18 block III Super Hornets with enough to fill out Navy and Marine Reserve Squadrons.
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SteelChair
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:28 pm

STT757 wrote:
LyleLanley wrote:
STT757 wrote:
Cogent and reasonable words


But the 748F has a nose cargo door! Surely, you overlooked that tidbit when you listed some (not all) of the DoD’s priority programs, just now


I want;

21 additional P-8s, above the 138 the Navy asked for, to fill out three additional Reserve Patrol Squadrons at:

7 Joint Base MDL, New Jersey
7 NAS JRB New Orleans, LA
7 NAS Point Mugu, CA

25 C-130Js for the Navy Reserve Logistics Squadrons to replace their 25 C-130Ts

The Navy to source 10 additional C-40s , perhaps former DL, to fill out an additional 3 additional Reserve Logistics squadrons (3 Joint Base MDL, 3 Joint Base Andrews, 3 JRB NAS New Orleans).

Replace all F-15 C, D, E with F-15EX.

Sped up delivery of KC-46.

Long range ground Based Anti- Ship missiles for the Marines.

F-18 block III Super Hornets with enough to fill out Navy and Marine Reserve Squadrons.


That's a pretty good list with one exception, the P-8. I saw one shooting touch and goes at SDF a few weeks ago. They must have plenty of airplanes for them to be flying around the central USA......those Russian subs in the Ohio River are a real threat.....

Would love to see more 130J's. Hard to believe it's been more than 20 years in service already. Given USAF utilization rates, the oldest one must have 2,500 hours on it by now. A civil pax plane would have around 60,000 FH and a civil freighter about 25,000.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:32 pm

SteelChair wrote:
That's a pretty good list with one exception, the P-8. I saw one shooting touch and goes at SDF a few weeks ago. They must have plenty of airplanes for them to be flying around the central USA......those Russian subs in the Ohio River are a real threat.....

Would love to see more 130J's. Hard to believe it's been more than 20 years in service already. Given USAF utilization rates, the oldest one must have 2,500 hours on it by now. A civil pax plane would have around 60,000 FH and a civil freighter about 25,000.


You do understand that not only does the P-8 do more than hunt Russian subs, but that the crew could've been on an out-and-back or had any number of reasons to be hanging around Kentucky that you're not privy to, being that you have zero idea of what the purpose of their sortie was?

2500 hours? Pretty sure GWB was in office, then.
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cjg225
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:19 am

STT757 wrote:
F-15EX to replace F-15Cs, F-15 Ds, F-15Es.

But why? The F-15EX has no mission.

:stirthepot:
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STT757
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:43 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
That's a pretty good list with one exception, the P-8. I saw one shooting touch and goes at SDF a few weeks ago. They must have plenty of airplanes for them to be flying around the central USA......those Russian subs in the Ohio River are a real threat.....

Would love to see more 130J's. Hard to believe it's been more than 20 years in service already. Given USAF utilization rates, the oldest one must have 2,500 hours on it by now. A civil pax plane would have around 60,000 FH and a civil freighter about 25,000.


You do understand that not only does the P-8 do more than hunt Russian subs, but that the crew could've been on an out-and-back or had any number of reasons to be hanging around Kentucky that you're not privy to, being that you have zero idea of what the purpose of their sortie was?

2500 hours? Pretty sure GWB was in office, then.


The new AN/APS-154 Advanced Airborne Sensor they have been rolling out supposedly has a remarkable capability to track troop formations and movements on land. Might be training at Fort Knox or Fort Campbell.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33289/behold-these-awesome-shots-of-a-navy-p-8a-poseidon-carrying-its-big-secretive-radar-pod
 
IAHObserver
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Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:09 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
UA857 wrote:
If the USAF could convince Lockheed to restart C-5 production they could convince Boeing to restart 747 production.


You got it all wrong, dude: Lockheed convinced the USAF. And Boeing couldn’t sell ice cubes to Bedouins, at the moment

At some point its time for a thread to die, I think we are there
 
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LyleLanley
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Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:33 pm

Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:56 am

IAHObserver wrote:
At some point its time for a thread to die, I think we are there


I couldn’t agree more!
"I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook, and, by gum, it put them on the map!"
 
744SPX
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:46 am

This thread should have died on the first page. The majority has been off-topic.
 
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DL757NYC
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

Re: Should the USAF order the 747-8F?

Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:41 am

If the military committed to a large enough order Boeing could find a company to build the parts. Setting up manufacturing and tooling a far cheaper than designing, testing and manufacturing a new type of AC.

The 747-8 was still selling. The last of the white tails have been sold I believe. And the last 4 frames were purchased by Atlas. If companies become desperate enough there are almost 40 747-8 passenger Jets that will be retired one day.

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